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Great post.
this is basically how I have been playing ZvT over the last few months, and it is incredible.
I take a very fast macro hatch, you can drone uninterrupted to 2 base saturation and churn out a ton of zerglings while you take your gas.
You can easily have 60 lings out in time for a ~10 minute push with 15 marines, 3 tanks, and a medivac, and the zerglings win.
I use my gas for 6-8 infestors and double upgrades, I get burrow, drops, and a quick hive. When you have a lot of lings you want to have them burrowed at every expo all over the map for scouting information.
If he does a big push, I can flank it and kill it with infestor support. If he goes mass drops you split up your lings and infestors to defend your bases. If he expands, you drop zerglings into his main, or run into his natural, or burrow infestors around, or just keep expanding and get hive.
aXa, do you have any specific tips for defeating the 9:30 Marine Tank push with pure +1/+1 Lings? Do you try splitting in 2-3 groups? Do you counter? I feel that the reason people push for early Mutas is for that specific push and drops (which can start around 9 min after 2 rax).
Have one premade group of lings roaming the map, produce reinforcements, and flank him when he gets too close.
aXa, would you mind adding a little more of a supplementary bit and/or replays about dealing with BFH openings/timing pushes? I think a little deeper insight into that might help any lower tier Z's about how you prepare and handle it.
I use queens and spines to keep hellions out of my base. It's difficult to take a 3rd base before lair unless he makes a mistake and lets you surround him with lings. Usually I get infestors (or muta) then double expo after a BFH opening.
The slayers BFH elevator is trivial to hold off with queens and lings as long as you have creep in your main and have the queens in position when the medivac arrives.
If you want a pro example of this kind of playstyle, look at DRG vs MKP from MVP vs PRime in the GSTL. This weekend the vods are free!
DRG goes straight to 4 hatcheries and crushes a timing attack with pure zergling, then transitions into mutalisk zergling baneling.
One thing that bothers me to no end in pro zerg play is how they always fall so far behind on upgrades, and then their zergling baneling no longer trades effectively. 2/0 ling/bane against 2/2 marines... you won't get a single hit unless the terran player really screws up. If you don't rely heavily on banelings, you can stay ahead of their upgrades, and if your carapace matches their attack upgrade, your units are always pretty good.
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I don't see anything new here, just standard ZVT play, in each replay i see big mistakes made by the terran, and found out your win/loss is less than 50% not sure people should follow this guide, in fact i warn people not to.
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On September 01 2011 23:32 nYuu wrote:
I don't see anything new here, just standard ZVT play, in each replay i see big mistakes made by the terran, and found out your win/loss is less than 50% not sure people should follow this guide, in fact i warn people not to.
No. No blings is not standard. He wrote a nice guide, WITH REASONING as to why he did what he did, and you discredit him because his win/loss is not over 50%? Do you consider the fact that people "practice" on ladder and lose a lot because they try certain styles? I also would like to remind you that not everyone is a top rated Grand Master player such as yourself, so a guide like this that thoroughly describes the "game" can help a lot of people on a more broad scale.
Great guide, I'll give it a shot this week, Ive been using broods for the most part versus terran but Ultras, especially after 1.4, will most likely be my main T3 for tvz vs the standard marine/tank.
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On September 01 2011 23:32 nYuu wrote:
I don't see anything new here, just standard ZVT play, in each replay i see big mistakes made by the terran, and found out your win/loss is less than 50% not sure people should follow this guide, in fact i warn people not to.
1. W/L counts all three matchups.
2. W/L is irrelevant unless you are at the very top of the MMR.
3. W/L of the poster is irrelevant to whether or not you should consider his strategy. Effectively you are applying some converse of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority which isn't a reason to discount someone's argument.
4. On top of (1-3), that tone is kind of rude.
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On September 01 2011 23:32 nYuu wrote:
I don't see anything new here, just standard ZVT play, in each replay i see big mistakes made by the terran, and found out your win/loss is less than 50% not sure people should follow this guide, in fact i warn people not to.
3 Post, you must be a grandmaster lurker on TL for the past millenniums or a high level pro player that was recently banned and made a new account without shame... oh wait! Please don't dismiss people's well thought through guide right away without any logical reasonings... I am pretty sure aXa plays at high master/grandmaster level, and if his opponents made mistakes like that, thats even more reasons to use this in the lower leagues. And again, as aXa stated, he is terrible at zvp which affects his WR ratio quite a lot.
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Nice guide !
By the way, in the part : "Thoughts process about Zerg gameplay ", into "The weak link". You say that a baneling is 75 min / 25 gas. I wonder why everyone thinks that..
2 zerglings = 50 min. So that makes 1 zergling worth 25 min. You then add +25 min+25gas for morphing into a baneling. And you get 50 min / 25 gas for a baneling 
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I still have doubts on how you can prevent Terran taking every single expansion on the map. 2 Blueflame hellions in a mineral line can kill infinite zerglings, and a PF laughs at them anyway.
Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work. Zerglings are too easily dealt with by building walls, and low numbers of marines and a tank. Watch how IMMvp is immune to zerg counter attacks when stretched on 4 bases. Terran needs very very little to defend a zergling run by. 4 marines in a bunker with a slight sim city, a single tank, and your rallying reinforcements.
My biggest problem with mass ling is the inability to put pressure on your opponent at all.
Also, there reaches a critical mass of marines and medivacs where zerglings are basically useless. Dropping is also very very problematic because in low numbers, 8 marines and a medivac are invulnerable to lings. I just can't see how Zerg can be cost effective ever with this, and they MUST be because you have 0 ways of denying expands.
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On September 02 2011 01:52 Micket wrote:
I still have doubts on how you can prevent Terran taking every single expansion on the map. 2 Blueflame hellions in a mineral line can kill infinite zerglings, and a PF laughs at them anyway.
Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work. Zerglings are too easily dealt with by building walls, and low numbers of marines and a tank. Watch how IMMvp is immune to zerg counter attacks when stretched on 4 bases. Terran needs very very little to defend a zergling run by. 4 marines in a bunker with a slight sim city, a single tank, and your rallying reinforcements.
My biggest problem with mass ling is the inability to put pressure on your opponent at all.
All that is definitely true, though I guess if you are making madness amounts of lings, and go sack 20 of them to kill 10 SCVs even with a PF there its not a big deal.
But maybe with this style, this is where nydus and drops really start to evolve? Even 10-20 links in a base with muta harrass on the other side of the base would be quite annoying and could do decent damage to a T. Just theorycrafting. Ive been playing with nydus recently, and while sometimes I end up kinda forcing a nydus for the sake of having it, it still adds a whole new dynamic to the mu.
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On September 02 2011 01:59 commiekaze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 01:52 Micket wrote:
I still have doubts on how you can prevent Terran taking every single expansion on the map. 2 Blueflame hellions in a mineral line can kill infinite zerglings, and a PF laughs at them anyway.
Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work. Zerglings are too easily dealt with by building walls, and low numbers of marines and a tank. Watch how IMMvp is immune to zerg counter attacks when stretched on 4 bases. Terran needs very very little to defend a zergling run by. 4 marines in a bunker with a slight sim city, a single tank, and your rallying reinforcements.
My biggest problem with mass ling is the inability to put pressure on your opponent at all. All that is definitely true, though I guess if you are making madness amounts of lings, and go sack 20 of them to kill 10 SCVs even with a PF there its not a big deal. But maybe with this style, this is where nydus and drops really start to evolve? Even 10-20 links in a base with muta harrass on the other side of the base would be quite annoying and could do decent damage to a T. Just theorycrafting. Ive been playing with nydus recently, and while sometimes I end up kinda forcing a nydus for the sake of having it, it still adds a whole new dynamic to the mu.
20 lings will kill 0 scvs near a planetary. Worker drill or pull them and they live. Remember that Terran always has a secondary army at his base. 8 lings will not do anything to hurt Terrans production. On 2 base, Terran can produce 16 marines at a time if he wants to, it is very very hard to harass them.
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Okay guys, about my skill level i am currently mid master (and pretty much always been) with a 50% win ratio (114-112) moving between 20th and 30th place.
Cheese keeps me out of top 8. I basically lose maybe 3 game out of 10 due to silly cheese SCDprime style or canon rush if you know what i mean.
Edit: You are right about the baneling cost ! I was so focus on the gas part i made a mistake on the mineral one.
By the way, you are wrong about terran simcity/turtling. It is not my style that is weak against that, it is zerg in general. A good turtle with enough PF/turret/tank with a fast expansion rate will destroy zerg SO easily. Protoss can do the same, because cannon are basically broken.
Adding baneling or going mass muta won't change much against a mass turtling style. Anyway, the mass zergling is until mid game. You of course have to change your comp in late game.
My opponent of course made mistake, and so did I. They did master mistakes actually. Try to think more than 2 sec before writing something.
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On September 02 2011 01:59 commiekaze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 01:52 Micket wrote:
I still have doubts on how you can prevent Terran taking every single expansion on the map. 2 Blueflame hellions in a mineral line can kill infinite zerglings, and a PF laughs at them anyway.
Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work. Zerglings are too easily dealt with by building walls, and low numbers of marines and a tank. Watch how IMMvp is immune to zerg counter attacks when stretched on 4 bases. Terran needs very very little to defend a zergling run by. 4 marines in a bunker with a slight sim city, a single tank, and your rallying reinforcements.
My biggest problem with mass ling is the inability to put pressure on your opponent at all. All that is definitely true, though I guess if you are making madness amounts of lings, and go sack 20 of them to kill 10 SCVs even with a PF there its not a big deal. But maybe with this style, this is where nydus and drops really start to evolve? Even 10-20 links in a base with muta harrass on the other side of the base would be quite annoying and could do decent damage to a T. Just theorycrafting. Ive been playing with nydus recently, and while sometimes I end up kinda forcing a nydus for the sake of having it, it still adds a whole new dynamic to the mu.
I don't usually use the nydus worm because it sucks for transporting zerglings, but zergling drops are insanely good. Nydus worm for ultralisks and infestors should be awesome, but it's pretty underwhelming for zerglings.
Dropping ~48 lings into a terran main can be absolutely devastating, or at a minimum forces quite a bit of troop movement, creating vulnerabilities elsewhere. You can also burrow lings in his base to save them for later.
Banelings have never been an important part of zerg harass, pressure, or expansion denial, not including all-ins, so this doesn't really change that. Even if you're going mutalisk baneling, you should try dropping lings in his base while harassing with mutas.
One thing that I am afraid of is that my style of ZvT (ling drops and expansion snipes while creeping forward with broodlord infestor) may be easily countered by a 150/150 upgrade that everyone forgets exists, except for Gretorp.
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I don't understand why Zergs complain about Terran. I mean, it's reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hard for a Terran to beat a Zerg who is just making more units than drones. If you want to win against Terran, be AGRESSIVE ! How many Terrans could have died after expanding because tons of zerglings came in their base and he had only 2 siege tanks and 10 Marines ? Not enough !
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On September 02 2011 02:37 Nightshake wrote:
I don't understand why Zergs complain about Terran. I mean, it's reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hard for a Terran to beat a Zerg who is just making more units than drones. If you want to win against Terran, be AGRESSIVE ! How many Terrans could have died after expanding because tons of zerglings came in their base and he had only 2 siege tanks and 10 Marines ? Not enough !
No one here is "complaining" and it's certainly not as easy as you say against a competent T. If you dump a lot of money into early units and not drones ( i mean you basically make nothing but lings), and then fail, the game is done. Depots and bunkers positioned well will funnel the lings and those same 10 marines and 2 tanks can do a surprising amount of damage. It seems what OP is suggesting here as well is make units before going super crazy with drones, but to attack into a properly walled/defended T base who has 2 tanks and 10 marines would require a lot of lings to do anything except auto lose.
For the lings attacking patches beside a PF: Yeah I guess you are right, I dont know, I was throwing it out there.
For the nydus: You are right, you need a lot of units to do damage, but its like muta harass, you pick off stuff here and there, make his army move, pick at another place, etc. Again, just a thought.
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i try a lot of nydus stuff in ZvP, and it never works at this level. Seriously, they should remove that sound effect.. Or include the same mechanics for mevivac drops 
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On September 02 2011 01:52 Micket wrote:
Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work.
I don't see how "Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position" would not work at higher stages?
Because if your speedlings are out on the map you can attack him anytime, so either he moves without beeing siege, or he try not doing it but in this case his push is consierably slowed, and gives you the time you need to produce 100 more speedling to crush him.
Pretty much the "cutting off reinforcement paragraph" from this article,, with lurkers added :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236
Also, there reaches a critical mass of marines and medivacs where zerglings are basically useless. Dropping is also very very problematic because in low numbers, 8 marines and a medivac are invulnerable to lings. I just can't see how Zerg can be cost effective ever with this, and they MUST be because you have 0 ways of denying expands.
8 marines and a medivac aren't invincible if the queen target the medivac and/or there are a tower.
On the "they can't deny expand", I'm not really sure why you say that as a lot of zerlings can effectively deny expands (a planetary without repair still dies to too many zerlings), by forcing the terran to have at least some troops on his expands.
Edit : and by the way nice guide, seems pretty solid and it's the way I like my zerg, with so many speedlings
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I really like the idea of massing up lings and saving gas for upgrades over banelings and early mutas. It seems like it's perfect for wiping out that early push that kills me so often right after I drop 900 gas on a weak muta ball. It does, however, occur to me that you can't really hope to pressure terrans that have any tank defenses at home to cover their wall after you wipe the push. Have you considered dropping a baneling nest so that you can make a few banelings after killing his push to bust down his wall? You could run some lings up to tank the first few shots from defenders and use an appropriate number of banelings to open a hole for the rest of your mob to run in. This adaptation might help in maps like shakuras, where the nat is very easily defended.
Also, to the numerous negative posters about X build counters this one really hard, you shouldn't do it. Remember that this is not meant to be an end all be all build for ZvT. It is specifically designed to destroy an early mid-game terran push that is commonly used against muta players, with a built in transition to econ or tier three tech. If you scout something besides that marine tank build, you can always adapt your strategy. Please quit posting if you don't have anything constructive to add, or can't make the leap that zerg builds have room for reaction to scouting.
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On September 02 2011 03:45 rightstuff wrote:
Have you considered dropping a baneling nest so that you can make a few banelings after killing his push to bust down his wall? You could run some lings up to tank the first few shots from defenders and use an appropriate number of banelings to open a hole for the rest of your mob to run in. This adaptation might help in maps like shakuras, where the nat is very easily defended.
aXa did cover that in the guide. Even after you break his push, the T already has stuff back home and with enough control and good position, the T will drive you back regardless. But this as he explained for the midgame. Once you have enough bases and are in the lategame, you need to be spending resources, so why not why bling nest for busts, I'd agree. I dont know how OP feels about that though.
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On September 02 2011 00:46 thobel wrote:3. W/L of the poster is irrelevant to whether or not you should consider his strategy. Effectively you are applying some converse of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority which isn't a reason to discount someone's argument.
It's actually called an "ad hominem" attack (sp?), discrediting someone's argument by directly attacking the person. It is still a kind of fallacious logic, though.
On topic:
I've often thought that banelings were over-relied upon in ZvT, especially with the advent of Infestors. I can imagine a future ZvT where Zerg relies mostly on lings/mutas throughout the midgame, using counterattacks to prevent a big threat and using mutas to pick off drops etc, waiting for Broodlords/Ultras/Infestors to come out.
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On September 02 2011 03:58 commiekaze wrote:
aXa did cover that in the guide. Even after you break his push, the T already has stuff back home and with enough control and good position, the T will drive you back regardless. But this as he explained for the midgame. Once you have enough bases and are in the lategame, you need to be spending resources, so why not why bling nest for busts, I'd agree. I dont know how OP feels about that though.
I can see your point. I'll test it out in a few games if I get a chance to, but what I'm advocating is dropping the bling nest just before, or just after spending 100g on lair. Then, when the marine tank push comes, you can morph some banelings near your opponents base if there is a wall blocking your lings from doing any significant damage.
In practice this may not work, but I'm not really sure how much defense the terran player will have after losing the tanks and marines committed to the push. You could potentially end the game with a bust after cleaning up the push if he's only had time to make one or two tanks. The marines won't cut it for defense against a lot of 1/0 or 1/1 lings. It's just a matter of getting into the base.
Edit:
From the replays "New ZvT 1" and "New ZvT 2" there is a window for a bust into the base. If you follow it up with rallied lings, I don't see why you couldn't end the game there. In "New ZvT 2" there is a window of nearly 40 seconds with no tank defending the main base wall. That is plenty of time to morph 4-5 banelings and break down the supply depot.
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This build I think would work wonders on the PTR and when patch 1.4 comes out, (with nerfed BFH, and buffed ultras), but atm I think BFH are just too effective against zerglings. Is there anyway you can deal with this other than just building roaches? Or for instance any kind of switch over to BFH or if the terran adds BFH into his army? And how would you deal with BFH drops?
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EPT
