VODs Casted by KangaRuthless available at the bottom of OP !
Expect the unexpected
Introduction
Hi guy's, after making 2 ZvZ guides and 1 ZvP, i'm finally coming back with a new approach of ZvT. This time, we are not going to explore a revolutionary style like Zergling/baneling once was in ZvP, nor a tight and well-planned build like 9 pool still actually is.
It will be more some kind of brain-storming theory, mindset thorough the game and unit usage, the whole thing being of course sustained by replays.
I like to explain why i came up with a new strategy at the beginning of my guides. Most of them are definitely coming from anger (My clan-mates are calling me "The Angry Zerg") due to a specific match up.
ZvZ always been a frustrating match up because of the incredible number of all-in you can do before the 6 min mark and the whole baneling-speedling stuff. That's why i tried a build allowing me to go straight into mid game.
ZvP and deathball just drove me crazy and that's why i tried something else than Roach/hydra/corruptor.
As it comes for ZvT, it definitely comes not from anger, but from rage. Nothing makes me more angry than marines, and more recently, BFH.
This guide is insanely long. I suggest you to read it maybe in two or three times, but there is a lot of useful stuff amongst this lines. The thoughts process parts are maybe the most important one. Definitely more important than the build order itself ! Actually, like every build order, it contains 0 answer
Let's jump right into the next part, explaining why marines drive me insane and how it helped me to figure out new ways of approaching ZvT.
My major complaints about marines are always been the same: They are insanely cheap and fast/easy to produce while remaining cost efficient all game long, even more if you know how to micro them. They are so powerful than even the design counter (baneling) is not efficient anymore especially at higher level. They run really fast with stim, they tank really great with medivacs, and they have a stupid stupid dps. But their main strength is not amongst one of those.
They are a mineral dumping unit. What does this mean? It means that to build a terran core, you only need minerals, allowing you to spend your gas to tech quickly (really quickly) and then focus on the supporting unit (tanks, thors) or expanding because the need of a later gas grab.
I heard sometimes caster saying that marines are the "supporting unit" and tanks the "core" but it's actually the other way around. Tanks allow marines to survive from baneling, and then allow them to do their crazy output damage.
In conclusion, it's more about the fact they fit so well with timing and macro that makes marine so powerful, more than their specific abilities.
What about BFH ?
About BFH, they are mineral dump as well, but unlike the marine, they have a lower dps but a higher mobility, allowing them to completely deny map dominance for zerg (Zergling, creep, threats of runby). But still, their main strength is the mineral dump.
As i understand ZvT right now, marine is the way to go for a bio/tank army into mid game as a mineral dump, while BFH is the way to go for mech. Don't get me wrong, you'll see countless of terran going reactor-hellion opening then transitionning into tank/marine. But hellion are not BFH, if you know what i mean
About terran armies in a broad fashion
The more time you give them, the more efficient they will be: pre-emptive tanks and marines spread do wonders against Zerg. Keep that in mind, as it will be an important part of the thought process later.
So, what does all of this leave us, our poor Zergs ?
Zergling/baneling/mutalisk: One mistake and die.
Marines heavy composition have led us (should i say misled us ?) to go for baneling and pray they will survive through siege tanks shells and then get some good hits (involving a non-splitted marine force). So basically, what does baneling play rely on?
In my opinion, mostly your opponent mistakes. If they do not target fire the baneling with tanks, if they do not split their marines, then maybe you'll be cost efficient. You can of course include some micro-management and tactics (Attacking from different angles, move command your baneling) to improve the odds. But basically, the best micro for Zerg in the world won't beat the best terran micro.
Of course, baneling are going along with mutalisk and some zergling. The whole idea being that "IF banelings kill enough marines, my muta will be able to clean up the rest"
The weak link
I think most player ended their reflexion right here. I did it too for a very long time. The whole "Eureka" thing happened while playing 4v4 with friends. We were playing in "fun mode", aka making silly stuff like Rush BC off of one base, etc.
I decided for 5 games or so to go mass, mass baneling. I realized that even with a solid macro (like 3 to 5 bases saturated) i could NOT really go for more than 120 food of banelings. (But anyway, it is SO FUNNY, i actually destroyed a 200/200 roach army with that many banelings lol lol).
I realized that banelings are in fact SO expansive related to food-cost. One baneling cost pretty much 50 minerals and 25 gases for 0.5 food! It is an incredibly gas heavy unit. In comparison, a BC cost 33,33 minerals and 25 gases per 0.5 food. You do realize that BC are really gas heavy, right ?
But before jumping to any conclusions, let's talk a little bit more about Zerg meta game with the Zergling/baneling/muta composition.
Zergs sure love their home
In a general fashion, you guys all know that zerg is supposed to stay one base ahead of his opponent. Why is that? Mainly because zerg's armies are cost inefficient. Don't get me wrong, not crying to imbalance here. Zerg is supposed to have strength that other races do not have: Mobility and number.
In order to remain cost efficient, Zerg has to outnumber Terran. That's why you'll see Zerg delaying and delaying the engagement until they get to the critical mass required to crush the push in a cost-efficient way.
As a result, zerg gives up mobility. Of course they can try to run around with mutas, even zerglings. But basically you'll see them stay at home, morphing as many baneling as possible and then roll over terran, or at least try to.
Remember when i was talking about Terran being more and more efficient the longer the time you give them in order to polish their push? Oh oh. You guys realize now that delaying is maybe a double-edged sword.
Giving up our strength
It really bothers me. Is really zerg compelled to be the "defensive and reactionary race"? Why can i not be everywhere on the map as zerg is supposed to be? Why Terran are knocking at my gate and dropping everywhere, abusing the strange fact that we can not be in an aggressive stance ?
Of course we talked a lot about how strong terran is defensively. Buildings, tanks and bunkers make any frontal assault pledged to failure. So Zerg is bad at attack and defense. What does that leave us ? My answer in the next spoiler.
Ok let's be clear right now. We all saw ZenexLine in GSL making a pure ling/muta composition, using the gas saved from baneling to make a bigger muta flock.. However, i have a different usage of this non-baneling style and it can't really be compared to his. I don't plan to go for an early muta play, nore making an huge muta flock. I have better use for the extra gas.
Understanding the game design differently
I wanted no more to play like zerg's do, i.e. macroing on the edge, (getting as many workers and expand as possible) and making units at the last possible moment while delaying the push. I wanted to play like terran and protoss do: Going for a predetermined number of workers/expands, then crank up army and dictate the pace of the game from there.
In one word, i was looking for a mineral-dump unit, allowing me to be safe while teching, upgrading, expanding. Baneling are your worst enemy. They are gas heavy, bad off creep and long to train (24 + 20 sec). Zerg sure have a mineral dumping unit. Why could we not use it the same way as Terran?
Everyone as this point know i'm talking about zergling. But you are still wondering: how in the hell could zergling be possibly cost effective? Can i really stay alive with them? How? Why zergling?
It looks like a bold statement isn't it? Let's go into most zerg's mindset about zergling. They know they are cheap and fast, but they can't forget the fact that they melt in direct fight.
I think it is so mainly because of the 2 rax pressure episode that people kept thinking that zergling are terrible against marine with some micro. And of course, even more terrible when tank are sieged. Or so they thought.
Zergling are actually incredibly good as long as they are is sufficient number. Note that sufficient is a relative word: if 50 zerglings can be enough to crush a push at 10 min mark, it will not be the case at 15 min and so on. I'll talk about specifics in the units usage spoiler.
Because of the fact that zerg is so focus on getting more drone and more expands, they can't be in the mindset of producing a fuck-ton of zerglings. First, because all their minerals go into it, second, because of the larvae production.
Solving larvae
Zergling are incredibly larvae expansive. As most zerg will see it as a drawback, i can't help but think this is incredibly well thought out by blizzard. Let's say i want to be able to stay alive with only zergling off two bases with good saturation.
You know you can't have only 2 hatch with 2 queen and get the job done. So you'll go for an early macro hatch and a third queen. I hear you scream from here. "Oh, what an investment!This could have been an expand and 3 more drone !"
Let's try to change our mindset: I just built a solid economy (aka larvae production) to go really safe into mid game. I can choose to produce a ton of zergling in no time, but if it happens i have a window to expand and drone, i have enough larvae to saturate it in one production cycle.
Of course, all of it depends on how well you fare with injects. Time to practice !
Making ourselves safe windows of time
For now, Zerg philosophy is "delay the army, expand early". I'd rather get my army early and expanding under the safety of this army. To be more specific, i'd rather drone just after killing the terran push than take risks, droning at the wrong time and barely defend the push or die to it.
Why are zergling able to perform so well in that matter? We already say they are cheap and quick to produce. They are also the only fast off-creep unit (mobility) and outnumber your opponent using a great surface area.
Do you know how i like my tank? Unsieged, with a lot of zergling all around them ! Zerg strength is not offense nor defense, like i said. Their strength is in the middle of the map, were there is no direct pressure at your economy.
Let's say i catch a terran army with zergling just outside his base. I kill a half of it and lose all my zerglings. Guess who has the time to reproduce an entire army before the half-terran army reach your base? Are you starting to understand?
Zerglings are a delicate unit and need a lot of attention. Well used, they can be deadly. The first thing to understand, is that mobility means nothing without knowledge. Before trying to outspeed your opponent, the first thing to do is to know where is army is and when it moves out. For that you'll need to grab xel naga's tower, and regrab them every single time your zergling die.
More, you'll need to set some sacrificial zerglings on attacks paths, in front of terran's base, to really have a good idea what's going on.
This being done, never let your zergling in one control group. Ideally, you should have 20 zergling ready to run-by when terran moves out, then your main army split in two equal numbers, in a region out of terran sight but ready to intercept the push somewhere open on the map.
About run-by, Some picture are worth thousand of words:
The zergling magic goes very far. We talked a bit about terran strength at turtling. The major issue is, after cleaning a push with muta/ling/bling in a delayed fashion, you could not really strikes back, because another push is almost ready in terran's base.
With zergling, if for example you crush a push just outside his base and have a lot of zerglings left, just go right into their base and kill as much stuff as possible! 1 or 2 tank sieged won't stop you. You can choose to reinforce quickly with more zergling production cycle, or simply get more ahead. Games can really be over fast with zergling's help.
I won't say that hellions (or by extend mech play) are a real issue for zergling. Mass BFH surely is though. If terran goes for the BFH mineral dump while doing other stuff, you got to switch and go for roaches. More on that later.
Map are the real issue with this strategy. There is not a lot of them, but some are terrible for zergling. Shakuras Plateau is one of them. In a broad fashion, every map with safe natural and very few paths of attack are just too strong for terran.
In a direct fight, upgraded zergling will fear 3-3 marines along medivac. At this point, you should however have something else than mass zergling to win battles Don't forget to stay on top of your upgrade, melee and armor ofc.
Sieged tank are not really scary as long as the count is not insane. As i said, if 15 tank are sieged in front of your base and you still have only zergling, then you're doing something wrong.
...Because they fit so well with everything else + Show Spoiler +
Spending your gas
While your spending most of your mineral on zergling, you'll have gas saved up for more important thing than baneling. The first thing is to start upgrades early, even before your lair, then tech up as quickly as possible.
Did you ever wonder why zerg stayed so long on T2 with Muta/ling/baneling? Maybe because they didn't have any gas left for T3.
With the saved gas, you'll of course make some mutalisks (except against mech: go for roach instead) for map control, snipe, and of course to deny any excessive drop play. I try to not go over 15-20 muta. This thing are expansive and useless if terran knows how to build turrets !
But you'll first of all rush for T3. Do you see any particular reason why zerg should get T3 unit at 20-25min mark, while terran and protoss can get them out at 10/13 min ? I don't.
Brood or ultra?
Don't make the mistake of going for broodlords. They are slow, easily countered by vikings and don't fit well to that style.
Choose to make early ultras. 4 base is a good number to sustain them. 3 is also doable but risky. Ultra will do wonder along your cracklings, and will do even more with patch 1.4!
T3 Unit are turtling-breaker (or turtler-breaking ) Maybe you thought that broods were better at it than ultras. It is only a half-truth. With ultralisks, you'll have the possibility to choose where to break terran, as for broodlords, you'll have to go for the nearest expand because they are incredibly slow.
On Xel naga cavern for example, with brood you'll have of course to attack the gold, where the whole army stands, while with ultra, you'll be able to go for the natural because they are fast enough.
I consider every map except Xel'naga as safe map to go hatch first and expect reactor hellion build. Keep in mind, if you scout anything else, then the build order is not the same.
9/10 Overlord 13/18 Scouting drone 15/18 Hatchery 15/18 Extractor: Mine 100 gas for speed and pull drone off. 14/18 pool 16/18 Overlord 16/26: 2 Queens, 2 set of zergling 28/28: 2 spine crawler, 2 evolution chamber. 5 set of ling to be safe against hellion run by. 6:00: macro hatch, followed by 2 extra Queens (3 to injects, 1 for creep) Then 2nd extractor, pull back 6 drone in gas. Start +1 melee +1 armor asap. Then tech to lair. T3 depends if you have 70 drone on 3-4 bases or not.
On Xel'naga
I actually don't remember playing a game without 2 rax on this one
9/10 Overlord 12/18: Scouting drone 14/18: Extractor: 100 gas for speed, then pull off drone. 14/18: Pool 16/18: Overlord, then Queen. 18/26: Make ling with all the larvae available, until the first injects pop include. (15 ling or so in total) Plant your natural when your money allows it (usually, right after the 2 initial lings) Then plant a macro hatch asap. Make extra ling if needed (4 rax), otherwise, make drone. Same following as the other maps.
[url blocked] 7 replays pack fileserve Additional replays: [url blocked] [url blocked] [url blocked] [url blocked] Of course let me know if you have trouble to DL them. You'll see me crush terran going for mech or bio, slowly maturing the style one game after another. Enjoy !
VODs
Thanks to kangaruthless, we now have casted replay ! He is really doing a great job so definitely check out his youtube channel ! Game 1 + Show Spoiler +
Umm... I'm not able to download the replays? Can you check everything is correct with how you uploaded them? Maybe it's the computer I'm on... I'll switch in a second.
Anyway, I read through it, from the gist of it you're talking about skipping the time it takes to get a bane's nest, bane speed, morph banes, and *required creep spread* in exchange for more macro hatches, upgrades, and lots of lings?
It's interesting, I will say more after I watch the replays.
Wow! I have been fighting with a way to go an upgrade heavy style for WEEEEEKKS, trying to do Ling-Muta after watching Slush do it a few MLG's ago. But I could never get it to work because the Mutas always came too late for the 9:30 Marine-Tank push, even with Ling pressure. I recently switched to midgame Ling-Roach with some mid-game infestors
I'm glad someone has overcome the hurdle a lowly Master's player could not! Thanks so much!
Fantastic guide. I play T and I always wonder why my Z opponents don't just mass lings and keep throwing them at me. I always hear it in VODs, how Zerg can just throw army after army away and eventually overwhelm Terran. Definitely a great idea, would love to try to figure out how to counter this. :D
Another thing about maps though. Terran can get a critical number of BFH (6-8) before Mutas come out. If you're planning to invest all your gas in upgrades and Mutas, then wouldn't your drone line be completely forfeit, if all you have are lings, spines, and queens?
Interesting. This actually goes well into how I play zerg, I almost only make batches of drones/units only, I rarely do any specific "make one unit now to be safe". This is gonna fix my huge mineral pile seeing it has a really fast in base hatch Would you recommend just getting as many ultras as possible or there should be a ratio that you like? One thing I don't like about ultras are that they are really bad when there are too much of them
NEver go for more than 5 ultra against tank marine. Use crackling to prevent marines running away from then. Against mech, 10 ultra can be good.
Against BFH, timing push Coca/July style with roaches, and broadly roaches to prevent them. But against any kind of hellion without blue flame, just overrun them with zergling.
In my replays, you'll see i wall off with 2 spine and 2 evo chamber. It is much needed.
By the way, muta are really delayed with this strategy: usually, i try to time them out with my 5 and 6th extractor . I don't like the idea of going muta on 4 gas only.
On September 01 2011 01:57 aXa wrote: NEver go for more than 5 ultra against tank marine. Use crackling to prevent marines running away from then. Against mech, 10 ultra can be good.
Against BFH, timing push Coca/July style with roaches, and broadly roaches to prevent them. But against any kind of hellion without blue flame, just overrun them with zergling.
In my replays, you'll see i wall off with 2 spine and 2 evo chamber. It is much needed.
By the way, muta are really delayed with this strategy: usually, i try to time them out with my 5 and 6th extractor . I don't like the idea of going muta on 4 gas only.
Thank you for the great write-up! I am looking forward to trying this. I have started to realize that Banelings are not very good recently, and my troubles against Terran have lessened somewhat.
Do you get Infestors at all or just save the gas for straight Tier 3? It seems like this build might have some trouble defending drops without at least several Infestors.
I've really been troubled by zvt lately because I find ling/bling/muta so cost inefficient. Not a big fan of massing infestors against marine/tank either.
I like the idea of dumping minerals into mass ling and the gas used on slightly faster tech and upgrades.
I just don't understand why a terran wouldn't start massing blue flame hellions when he realizes you're pretty much going for mass lings only before T3... takes like a half of a brain cell to figure that one out but no one in your replays seemed to realize it ? :D
This build is quite okay against drop, as long as you send only a handful of zergling do deal with them (No need to send the entire army). You go for muta as well, so it's ok.
I go for some infestor, but just a few in order to "stay alive" during ultralisk production.
About BFH, of course some does. If they do i switch to roaches. But if terrans in my replay don't go for BFH, it's mainly because they had a plan and a style they are used to: Tank/marine. I guess they are not comfortable with BFH yet
Oh aXa, I love your posts so much. I love both your ZvZ strategy and your ZvP strategy. I am skeptical about this one, but because I love your other two guides so much I am going to try it for a while. This guide doesn't seem to be quite as comprehensive though .
That being said, what exactly do you spend your gas on? Or do you save it for t3? I can't imagine there is much to spend your gas on with mass zerglings other than upgrades and you say you dont like going mutas on 4 gas. Do you get burrow to burrow your zerglings in strategic positions? Have you ever considered burrowing your entire army below where you expect him to walk?
I've actually done some tests with zerglings vs marines, and equivalent cost marines vs equivalent cost zerglings results in the zerglings losing no matter what you do if they stim. If they don't stim, you can win easily by unburrow zerglings directly below them. Did you know that if you do that, all the marines get split up and you get a full surround that way?
What do you do if the opponent sees what you are doing and doesnt make any tanks? Do you get banelings then? If they go mass marine medivac, I feel like you might have trouble against that without banelings, especially if he takes all his medivacs and drops right behind your mineral line. Mineral line = death to zerglings. Sorry about all the questions :S
Great guide i'll take a closer look at the build orders later but upgraded speedlings catching terrans army in the middle of the map seems much more cost effective then banelings. For the midgame a dozen mutas and some infestors seems like a smart transition into the late game, that's assuming speedlings haven't countered a push and gutted his natural. When patch 1.4 comes and I start using ultras its sweet that they benifet from the speedlings attack and defense upgrades.
Bfh may give me some trouble but with a few extra spines and the 1.4 nerf that won't be to big a problem. I'm concerned about drops behind the mineral lines where my speedlings will funneld to there doom but a small amount of mutas will help stop or atleast let me get ready to defend against drops.
Again great guide, glad to see that? zergs don't have to wait for the terran to be knocking on there front door before they can fight back.
I spend my gas like this: +1 melee +1 armor +lair Take 2 extra gas, build a spire and infest Quickly after, take 2 extra gas (depends on your third timing) Build T3 asap. Build 10-15 muta, 2-3 infestor. Build ultra den then ultra.
You will see me get a baneling nest sometime in my replay. They can be good in emergency or in case terran goes for a full marine/medivac combo. (Again if they are smart, just go BFH)
I use burrow for scouting purpose, but never to unburrow your ling underneath an army. it's such a coinflip. One scan and you are pretty dead. I'd rather have my zergling active on the map than static under the ground. you can get a surround by coming from 2 different angles.
Btw BFH nerf won't affect zergling vs BFH fight. Only worker vs BFH.
On September 01 2011 03:22 aXa wrote: I spend my gas like this: +1 melee +1 armor +lair Take 2 extra gas, build a spire and infest Quickly after, take 2 extra gas (depends on your third timing) Build T3 asap. Build 10-15 muta, 2-3 infestor. Build ultra den then ultra.
Btw BFH nerf won't affect zergling vs BFH fight. Only worker vs BFH.
Oh, I see. So you stockpile gas for a little bit and don't start using any until you are on 3 geysers. Also, could you maybe talk about the other things I mentioned? I edited a lot of things in. Thanks!
On September 01 2011 03:26 aXa wrote: Edited my own post too
About the burrow thing: Yeah, it is a pretty big coinflip, but if you don't burrow near creep you never really get scanned right? Although I suppose the terran might be cautious if he doesn't see your army at your natural. The only reason I make it a point to mention it is because it is a HUGE DPS increase if you are able to unburrow from under a squad of marines. Like really huge. You wouldn't believe it until you did it o.o.
Just another question I am wondering. about Muta, is it because you are unfamiliar with infestors or there is a reason? I feel that infestors are the better units that work with tier 3, stops pushes well and is the tech structure for tier 3.
I've watched 5 of your replays, and so far all I've seen is terrans expanding after some sort of hellion opening, and then switching to tanks.
What happens when he does a bomber-style walloff? Or he simcity correctly?
At the rate you take your third base, the terran can realistically turtle and just outproduce you and hit at ~10:30 timing for a pretty much guaranteed massive damage/win if he doesn't get caught unsieged (as you say yourself, a viable strategy can't rely on the failure of your opponent to scout properly).
All I see is terrible defense from the terran at a timing where he doesn't have enough units, and good simcity would've rendered your zerglings completely useless for 5 minutes.
Love your guides. Quick question about this one: I have recently been having good early game success with opening 5-6 roaches to pressure/reveal tech from T and then transitioning more to standard play. Do you feel transitioning to mass zergling from this opening is still viable? It seems reasonable to me because roaches are larva efficient so although you dump 125 gas, you haven't spent many larva and the roaches can be left at home instead of getting crawlers.
On September 01 2011 04:28 DW-Unrec wrote: You cant delay mutas that much. 14 game minutes you'll have 5 drops at each corner of your base. You're playing agaisnt bad opponents.
The idea of getting a early macro hatch is good. But I think you're delaying your tech too much.
Lol? It doesnt matter how many multi pronged drop terran will try to do, if you see him trying this, you just have to split your army into an equal number of bases you have. Muta are delayed but not that much anyway. The only "bad" thing here is your comment.
On September 01 2011 04:28 DW-Unrec wrote: You cant delay mutas that much. 14 game minutes you'll have 5 drops at each corner of your base. You're playing agaisnt bad opponents.
The idea of getting a early macro hatch is good. But I think you're delaying your tech too much.
Lololol. Bad GM/Master's opponents. :-)
aXa, do you have any specific tips for defeating the 9:30 Marine Tank push with pure +1/+1 Lings? Do you try splitting in 2-3 groups? Do you counter? I feel that the reason people push for early Mutas is for that specific push and drops (which can start around 9 min after 2 rax).
That has been my problem overall with pure Ling into late tech. I would appreciate any pointed advice on how you approach that problem.
This strategy is designed to crush any early push, especially the 9:30 marine/tank one. Usually, if you starts producing full zergling with 3 queen 3 hatch after making 50 drones, you'll have more than enough to crush the push. Go catch him in the middle of the map and it will be easier.
Do you see the picture with the title "Nice to meet you" in the guide? It is pretty much what happened: 2 rax into timing around 10. And it just got crushed It's in the replay btw, one of the last (5 or 6) on Xel naga.
On September 01 2011 04:44 aXa wrote: This strategy is designed to crush any early push, especially the 9:30 marine/tank one. Usually, if you starts producing full zergling with 3 queen 3 hatch after making 50 drones, you'll have more than enough to crush the push. Go catch him in the middle of the map and it will be easier.
Do you see the picture with the title "Nice to meet you" in the guide? It is pretty much what happened: 2 rax into timing around 10. And it just got crushed It's in the replay btw, one of the last (5 or 6) on Xel naga.
I can see it handle early tank marine agreesion extremely well, however, the push usually comes with less marines and more bfh, which is extremely hard to handle without a really good surround :S, and terran can decide to go either tank heavy marine tank style or just go into mech to counter which path does the zerg choose to - roach into marine tank and mass ling into mech.
On September 01 2011 04:48 aXa wrote: I'm pretty sure about one thing: If a roach/ling compo off 50 drones and 3 injected hatch can't handle this push, nothing can.
Deviation from the build, something i always miss to fathom and to do : P Right, add roach to the build xD
On September 01 2011 04:48 aXa wrote: I'm pretty sure about one thing: If a roach/ling compo off 50 drones and 3 injected hatch can't handle this push, nothing can.
Turtle + drops/harass can destroy your strategy. This works on diamond/masters or below, not vs pro gamers.
On September 01 2011 04:48 aXa wrote: I'm pretty sure about one thing: If a roach/ling compo off 50 drones and 3 injected hatch can't handle this push, nothing can.
Turtle + drops/harass can destroy your strategy. This works on diamond/masters or below, not vs pro gamers.
Drop harass can destroy any strategy, watch MMA play. This does work vs progamers, watch MotM with DDE. Unless youself claim as one of the best player in the foreign scene, i don't find your input especially helpful or even completely true, every strategy has a weakness and there will never be a perfect build that will handle everything perfectly, it is really based on personal preference and map structure.
On September 01 2011 04:48 aXa wrote: I'm pretty sure about one thing: If a roach/ling compo off 50 drones and 3 injected hatch can't handle this push, nothing can.
Turtle + drops/harass can destroy your strategy. This works on diamond/masters or below, not vs pro gamers.
I agree about one thing: Turtle. But turtle will not destroy MY strategy, it will destroy every zerg on the planet. Simcity + turtle + minimap awareness= nightmare for zerg.
Now arguing that drops will destroy this is ridiculous. Do you realize thaht having 20 ling at each base completely deny this strat? And you get muta on your third base, so no way of being too spread out.
About "pro gamers" i will argue you that even baneling bust off 1 base works at this level, despite being a strategy known for ages. Your arguments are irrelevant.
And anyway, there is a lot of things that can "destroy" my strategy, like every strategy btw. If you had noticed, it's mostly a meta game guide. Now you can stop being stubborn and unpleasant.
aXa, would you mind adding a little more of a supplementary bit and/or replays about dealing with BFH openings/timing pushes? I think a little deeper insight into that might help any lower tier Z's about how you prepare and handle it.
this is basically how I have been playing ZvT over the last few months, and it is incredible.
I take a very fast macro hatch, you can drone uninterrupted to 2 base saturation and churn out a ton of zerglings while you take your gas.
You can easily have 60 lings out in time for a ~10 minute push with 15 marines, 3 tanks, and a medivac, and the zerglings win.
I use my gas for 6-8 infestors and double upgrades, I get burrow, drops, and a quick hive. When you have a lot of lings you want to have them burrowed at every expo all over the map for scouting information.
If he does a big push, I can flank it and kill it with infestor support. If he goes mass drops you split up your lings and infestors to defend your bases. If he expands, you drop zerglings into his main, or run into his natural, or burrow infestors around, or just keep expanding and get hive.
aXa, do you have any specific tips for defeating the 9:30 Marine Tank push with pure +1/+1 Lings? Do you try splitting in 2-3 groups? Do you counter? I feel that the reason people push for early Mutas is for that specific push and drops (which can start around 9 min after 2 rax).
Have one premade group of lings roaming the map, produce reinforcements, and flank him when he gets too close.
aXa, would you mind adding a little more of a supplementary bit and/or replays about dealing with BFH openings/timing pushes? I think a little deeper insight into that might help any lower tier Z's about how you prepare and handle it.
I use queens and spines to keep hellions out of my base. It's difficult to take a 3rd base before lair unless he makes a mistake and lets you surround him with lings. Usually I get infestors (or muta) then double expo after a BFH opening. The slayers BFH elevator is trivial to hold off with queens and lings as long as you have creep in your main and have the queens in position when the medivac arrives.
If you want a pro example of this kind of playstyle, look at DRG vs MKP from MVP vs PRime in the GSTL. This weekend the vods are free!
DRG goes straight to 4 hatcheries and crushes a timing attack with pure zergling, then transitions into mutalisk zergling baneling.
One thing that bothers me to no end in pro zerg play is how they always fall so far behind on upgrades, and then their zergling baneling no longer trades effectively. 2/0 ling/bane against 2/2 marines... you won't get a single hit unless the terran player really screws up. If you don't rely heavily on banelings, you can stay ahead of their upgrades, and if your carapace matches their attack upgrade, your units are always pretty good.
I don't see anything new here, just standard ZVT play, in each replay i see big mistakes made by the terran, and found out your win/loss is less than 50% not sure people should follow this guide, in fact i warn people not to.
On September 01 2011 23:32 nYuu wrote: I don't see anything new here, just standard ZVT play, in each replay i see big mistakes made by the terran, and found out your win/loss is less than 50% not sure people should follow this guide, in fact i warn people not to.
No. No blings is not standard. He wrote a nice guide, WITH REASONING as to why he did what he did, and you discredit him because his win/loss is not over 50%? Do you consider the fact that people "practice" on ladder and lose a lot because they try certain styles? I also would like to remind you that not everyone is a top rated Grand Master player such as yourself, so a guide like this that thoroughly describes the "game" can help a lot of people on a more broad scale.
Great guide, I'll give it a shot this week, Ive been using broods for the most part versus terran but Ultras, especially after 1.4, will most likely be my main T3 for tvz vs the standard marine/tank.
On September 01 2011 23:32 nYuu wrote: I don't see anything new here, just standard ZVT play, in each replay i see big mistakes made by the terran, and found out your win/loss is less than 50% not sure people should follow this guide, in fact i warn people not to.
1. W/L counts all three matchups. 2. W/L is irrelevant unless you are at the very top of the MMR. 3. W/L of the poster is irrelevant to whether or not you should consider his strategy. Effectively you are applying some converse of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority which isn't a reason to discount someone's argument. 4. On top of (1-3), that tone is kind of rude.
On September 01 2011 23:32 nYuu wrote: I don't see anything new here, just standard ZVT play, in each replay i see big mistakes made by the terran, and found out your win/loss is less than 50% not sure people should follow this guide, in fact i warn people not to.
3 Post, you must be a grandmaster lurker on TL for the past millenniums or a high level pro player that was recently banned and made a new account without shame... oh wait! Please don't dismiss people's well thought through guide right away without any logical reasonings... I am pretty sure aXa plays at high master/grandmaster level, and if his opponents made mistakes like that, thats even more reasons to use this in the lower leagues. And again, as aXa stated, he is terrible at zvp which affects his WR ratio quite a lot.
By the way, in the part : "Thoughts process about Zerg gameplay ", into "The weak link". You say that a baneling is 75 min / 25 gas. I wonder why everyone thinks that..
2 zerglings = 50 min. So that makes 1 zergling worth 25 min. You then add +25 min+25gas for morphing into a baneling. And you get 50 min / 25 gas for a baneling
I still have doubts on how you can prevent Terran taking every single expansion on the map. 2 Blueflame hellions in a mineral line can kill infinite zerglings, and a PF laughs at them anyway.
Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work. Zerglings are too easily dealt with by building walls, and low numbers of marines and a tank. Watch how IMMvp is immune to zerg counter attacks when stretched on 4 bases. Terran needs very very little to defend a zergling run by. 4 marines in a bunker with a slight sim city, a single tank, and your rallying reinforcements.
My biggest problem with mass ling is the inability to put pressure on your opponent at all.
Also, there reaches a critical mass of marines and medivacs where zerglings are basically useless. Dropping is also very very problematic because in low numbers, 8 marines and a medivac are invulnerable to lings. I just can't see how Zerg can be cost effective ever with this, and they MUST be because you have 0 ways of denying expands.
On September 02 2011 01:52 Micket wrote: I still have doubts on how you can prevent Terran taking every single expansion on the map. 2 Blueflame hellions in a mineral line can kill infinite zerglings, and a PF laughs at them anyway.
Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work. Zerglings are too easily dealt with by building walls, and low numbers of marines and a tank. Watch how IMMvp is immune to zerg counter attacks when stretched on 4 bases. Terran needs very very little to defend a zergling run by. 4 marines in a bunker with a slight sim city, a single tank, and your rallying reinforcements.
My biggest problem with mass ling is the inability to put pressure on your opponent at all.
All that is definitely true, though I guess if you are making madness amounts of lings, and go sack 20 of them to kill 10 SCVs even with a PF there its not a big deal.
But maybe with this style, this is where nydus and drops really start to evolve? Even 10-20 links in a base with muta harrass on the other side of the base would be quite annoying and could do decent damage to a T. Just theorycrafting. Ive been playing with nydus recently, and while sometimes I end up kinda forcing a nydus for the sake of having it, it still adds a whole new dynamic to the mu.
On September 02 2011 01:52 Micket wrote: I still have doubts on how you can prevent Terran taking every single expansion on the map. 2 Blueflame hellions in a mineral line can kill infinite zerglings, and a PF laughs at them anyway.
Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work. Zerglings are too easily dealt with by building walls, and low numbers of marines and a tank. Watch how IMMvp is immune to zerg counter attacks when stretched on 4 bases. Terran needs very very little to defend a zergling run by. 4 marines in a bunker with a slight sim city, a single tank, and your rallying reinforcements.
My biggest problem with mass ling is the inability to put pressure on your opponent at all.
All that is definitely true, though I guess if you are making madness amounts of lings, and go sack 20 of them to kill 10 SCVs even with a PF there its not a big deal.
But maybe with this style, this is where nydus and drops really start to evolve? Even 10-20 links in a base with muta harrass on the other side of the base would be quite annoying and could do decent damage to a T. Just theorycrafting. Ive been playing with nydus recently, and while sometimes I end up kinda forcing a nydus for the sake of having it, it still adds a whole new dynamic to the mu.
20 lings will kill 0 scvs near a planetary. Worker drill or pull them and they live. Remember that Terran always has a secondary army at his base. 8 lings will not do anything to hurt Terrans production. On 2 base, Terran can produce 16 marines at a time if he wants to, it is very very hard to harass them.
Okay guys, about my skill level i am currently mid master (and pretty much always been) with a 50% win ratio (114-112) moving between 20th and 30th place.
Cheese keeps me out of top 8. I basically lose maybe 3 game out of 10 due to silly cheese SCDprime style or canon rush if you know what i mean.
Edit: You are right about the baneling cost ! I was so focus on the gas part i made a mistake on the mineral one.
By the way, you are wrong about terran simcity/turtling. It is not my style that is weak against that, it is zerg in general. A good turtle with enough PF/turret/tank with a fast expansion rate will destroy zerg SO easily. Protoss can do the same, because cannon are basically broken.
Adding baneling or going mass muta won't change much against a mass turtling style. Anyway, the mass zergling is until mid game. You of course have to change your comp in late game.
My opponent of course made mistake, and so did I. They did master mistakes actually. Try to think more than 2 sec before writing something.
On September 02 2011 01:52 Micket wrote: I still have doubts on how you can prevent Terran taking every single expansion on the map. 2 Blueflame hellions in a mineral line can kill infinite zerglings, and a PF laughs at them anyway.
Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work. Zerglings are too easily dealt with by building walls, and low numbers of marines and a tank. Watch how IMMvp is immune to zerg counter attacks when stretched on 4 bases. Terran needs very very little to defend a zergling run by. 4 marines in a bunker with a slight sim city, a single tank, and your rallying reinforcements.
My biggest problem with mass ling is the inability to put pressure on your opponent at all.
All that is definitely true, though I guess if you are making madness amounts of lings, and go sack 20 of them to kill 10 SCVs even with a PF there its not a big deal.
But maybe with this style, this is where nydus and drops really start to evolve? Even 10-20 links in a base with muta harrass on the other side of the base would be quite annoying and could do decent damage to a T. Just theorycrafting. Ive been playing with nydus recently, and while sometimes I end up kinda forcing a nydus for the sake of having it, it still adds a whole new dynamic to the mu.
I don't usually use the nydus worm because it sucks for transporting zerglings, but zergling drops are insanely good. Nydus worm for ultralisks and infestors should be awesome, but it's pretty underwhelming for zerglings.
Dropping ~48 lings into a terran main can be absolutely devastating, or at a minimum forces quite a bit of troop movement, creating vulnerabilities elsewhere. You can also burrow lings in his base to save them for later.
Banelings have never been an important part of zerg harass, pressure, or expansion denial, not including all-ins, so this doesn't really change that. Even if you're going mutalisk baneling, you should try dropping lings in his base while harassing with mutas.
One thing that I am afraid of is that my style of ZvT (ling drops and expansion snipes while creeping forward with broodlord infestor) may be easily countered by a 150/150 upgrade that everyone forgets exists, except for Gretorp.
I don't understand why Zergs complain about Terran. I mean, it's reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hard for a Terran to beat a Zerg who is just making more units than drones. If you want to win against Terran, be AGRESSIVE ! How many Terrans could have died after expanding because tons of zerglings came in their base and he had only 2 siege tanks and 10 Marines ? Not enough !
On September 02 2011 02:37 Nightshake wrote: I don't understand why Zergs complain about Terran. I mean, it's reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hard for a Terran to beat a Zerg who is just making more units than drones. If you want to win against Terran, be AGRESSIVE ! How many Terrans could have died after expanding because tons of zerglings came in their base and he had only 2 siege tanks and 10 Marines ? Not enough !
No one here is "complaining" and it's certainly not as easy as you say against a competent T. If you dump a lot of money into early units and not drones ( i mean you basically make nothing but lings), and then fail, the game is done. Depots and bunkers positioned well will funnel the lings and those same 10 marines and 2 tanks can do a surprising amount of damage. It seems what OP is suggesting here as well is make units before going super crazy with drones, but to attack into a properly walled/defended T base who has 2 tanks and 10 marines would require a lot of lings to do anything except auto lose.
For the lings attacking patches beside a PF: Yeah I guess you are right, I dont know, I was throwing it out there.
For the nydus: You are right, you need a lot of units to do damage, but its like muta harass, you pick off stuff here and there, make his army move, pick at another place, etc. Again, just a thought.
i try a lot of nydus stuff in ZvP, and it never works at this level. Seriously, they should remove that sound effect.. Or include the same mechanics for mevivac drops
On September 02 2011 01:52 Micket wrote: Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position may work vs low level players but a style that RELIES on counter attacks to be potent in the slightest is not solid enough to work.
I don't see how "Counter attacking and catching tanks out of position" would not work at higher stages? Because if your speedlings are out on the map you can attack him anytime, so either he moves without beeing siege, or he try not doing it but in this case his push is consierably slowed, and gives you the time you need to produce 100 more speedling to crush him.
Also, there reaches a critical mass of marines and medivacs where zerglings are basically useless. Dropping is also very very problematic because in low numbers, 8 marines and a medivac are invulnerable to lings. I just can't see how Zerg can be cost effective ever with this, and they MUST be because you have 0 ways of denying expands.
8 marines and a medivac aren't invincible if the queen target the medivac and/or there are a tower.
On the "they can't deny expand", I'm not really sure why you say that as a lot of zerlings can effectively deny expands (a planetary without repair still dies to too many zerlings), by forcing the terran to have at least some troops on his expands.
Edit : and by the way nice guide, seems pretty solid and it's the way I like my zerg, with so many speedlings
I really like the idea of massing up lings and saving gas for upgrades over banelings and early mutas. It seems like it's perfect for wiping out that early push that kills me so often right after I drop 900 gas on a weak muta ball. It does, however, occur to me that you can't really hope to pressure terrans that have any tank defenses at home to cover their wall after you wipe the push. Have you considered dropping a baneling nest so that you can make a few banelings after killing his push to bust down his wall? You could run some lings up to tank the first few shots from defenders and use an appropriate number of banelings to open a hole for the rest of your mob to run in. This adaptation might help in maps like shakuras, where the nat is very easily defended.
Also, to the numerous negative posters about X build counters this one really hard, you shouldn't do it. Remember that this is not meant to be an end all be all build for ZvT. It is specifically designed to destroy an early mid-game terran push that is commonly used against muta players, with a built in transition to econ or tier three tech. If you scout something besides that marine tank build, you can always adapt your strategy. Please quit posting if you don't have anything constructive to add, or can't make the leap that zerg builds have room for reaction to scouting.
On September 02 2011 03:45 rightstuff wrote: Have you considered dropping a baneling nest so that you can make a few banelings after killing his push to bust down his wall? You could run some lings up to tank the first few shots from defenders and use an appropriate number of banelings to open a hole for the rest of your mob to run in. This adaptation might help in maps like shakuras, where the nat is very easily defended.
aXa did cover that in the guide. Even after you break his push, the T already has stuff back home and with enough control and good position, the T will drive you back regardless. But this as he explained for the midgame. Once you have enough bases and are in the lategame, you need to be spending resources, so why not why bling nest for busts, I'd agree. I dont know how OP feels about that though.
On September 02 2011 00:46 thobel wrote: 3. W/L of the poster is irrelevant to whether or not you should consider his strategy. Effectively you are applying some converse of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority which isn't a reason to discount someone's argument.
It's actually called an "ad hominem" attack (sp?), discrediting someone's argument by directly attacking the person. It is still a kind of fallacious logic, though.
On topic:
I've often thought that banelings were over-relied upon in ZvT, especially with the advent of Infestors. I can imagine a future ZvT where Zerg relies mostly on lings/mutas throughout the midgame, using counterattacks to prevent a big threat and using mutas to pick off drops etc, waiting for Broodlords/Ultras/Infestors to come out.
On September 02 2011 03:58 commiekaze wrote: aXa did cover that in the guide. Even after you break his push, the T already has stuff back home and with enough control and good position, the T will drive you back regardless. But this as he explained for the midgame. Once you have enough bases and are in the lategame, you need to be spending resources, so why not why bling nest for busts, I'd agree. I dont know how OP feels about that though.
I can see your point. I'll test it out in a few games if I get a chance to, but what I'm advocating is dropping the bling nest just before, or just after spending 100g on lair. Then, when the marine tank push comes, you can morph some banelings near your opponents base if there is a wall blocking your lings from doing any significant damage.
In practice this may not work, but I'm not really sure how much defense the terran player will have after losing the tanks and marines committed to the push. You could potentially end the game with a bust after cleaning up the push if he's only had time to make one or two tanks. The marines won't cut it for defense against a lot of 1/0 or 1/1 lings. It's just a matter of getting into the base.
Edit:
From the replays "New ZvT 1" and "New ZvT 2" there is a window for a bust into the base. If you follow it up with rallied lings, I don't see why you couldn't end the game there. In "New ZvT 2" there is a window of nearly 40 seconds with no tank defending the main base wall. That is plenty of time to morph 4-5 banelings and break down the supply depot.
This build I think would work wonders on the PTR and when patch 1.4 comes out, (with nerfed BFH, and buffed ultras), but atm I think BFH are just too effective against zerglings. Is there anyway you can deal with this other than just building roaches? Or for instance any kind of switch over to BFH or if the terran adds BFH into his army? And how would you deal with BFH drops?
On September 02 2011 03:58 commiekaze wrote: aXa did cover that in the guide. Even after you break his push, the T already has stuff back home and with enough control and good position, the T will drive you back regardless. But this as he explained for the midgame. Once you have enough bases and are in the lategame, you need to be spending resources, so why not why bling nest for busts, I'd agree. I dont know how OP feels about that though.
I can see your point. I'll test it out in a few games if I get a chance to, but what I'm advocating is dropping the bling nest just before, or just after spending 100g on lair. Then, when the marine tank push comes, you can morph some banelings near your opponents base if there is a wall blocking your lings from doing any significant damage.
In practice this may not work, but I'm not really sure how much defense the terran player will have after losing the tanks and marines committed to the push. You could potentially end the game with a bust after cleaning up the push if he's only had time to make one or two tanks. The marines won't cut it for defense against a lot of 1/0 or 1/1 lings. It's just a matter of getting into the base.
But if you don't end the game with that bust, you no longer have any advantage and t may even lead to a dissadvantage. it;s fsafer to just keep your map control and expand, since he can't pressure you anyways with most of his army gone. in other words: "When you get ahead, get more ahead".
On September 02 2011 04:37 stink123 wrote: This build I think would work wonders on the PTR and when patch 1.4 comes out, (with nerfed BFH, and buffed ultras), but atm I think BFH are just too effective against zerglings. Is there anyway you can deal with this other than just building roaches? Or for instance any kind of switch over to BFH or if the terran adds BFH into his army? And how would you deal with BFH drops?
Ok, so you are saying that if I know he is all inning, to drop a bling nest. What if it's cross map and I cant scout it in time Because I cant get an OV in there fast enough or he denies it.
I dont really get this. In my experience very few zergs sit back in their base and are defensive/passive anymore. Isnt it the norm to be out on the map with zerglings for mapcontrol and constatly threatening with a counter the moment t moves out? I read the whole guide. But still, dont undestand your message.. Maybe its just me It doesnt take 3-3 marines to render pure zerglings pretty much useless in battle. If pure zergling T can just keep their marines in a tight ball, and when in a certain number (lets just say 30) the marines is so compact (little surfacearea for the melee zergling to attack) and have such high dps that the lings become very uneffective. With medivac support it gets rediculous.
The build you detail in the OP seems like it could be better optimized. Following it to the letter you can't actually afford everything you say to put in, especially the macro hatch and 2 queens at around the 6 minute mark. The couple of games that I cut out the spines from the build seemed to be better suited to getting everything out in a timely manner, but the level of scouting required to respond to early attacks with no spines and just speedlings is beyond my ability. Also, it feels like the timing on switching drones to gas is too early to have enough drones to support the intake.
I'll have to do some more runs through and testing, but I do feel like with a few more hours of tweaking we could find a better-optimized build for what we're trying to do here.
I never mentionned any specifics food/timing for everything. So its basically when you can afford it, which is the right way to refine a build order. If you feel like you don't have enough mineral for queens or enough drone to go gas, then you tried to do it too early.
aXa this is a solid strat, and what I like most about it is that it's an example of Zerg trying to workaround what's been hampering the race for so long. Banelings are dropping in usefulness so fast of late against smart micro, but the just ling shenanigans are smart. I think a big problem a lot of Zergs are facing is multitasking--being able to handle drops, have more than 1 control group of basic units, knowing what the enemy is going, watching for timing pushes etc. Strats like this, whether they affect the meta game or not, should be practiced for just that reason. Thanks for the info.
On September 02 2011 22:12 Marooned wrote: I dont really get this. In my experience very few zergs sit back in their base and are defensive/passive anymore. Isnt it the norm to be out on the map with zerglings for mapcontrol and constatly threatening with a counter the moment t moves out? I read the whole guide. But still, dont undestand your message.. Maybe its just me It doesnt take 3-3 marines to render pure zerglings pretty much useless in battle. If pure zergling T can just keep their marines in a tight ball, and when in a certain number (lets just say 30) the marines is so compact (little surfacearea for the melee zergling to attack) and have such high dps that the lings become very uneffective. With medivac support it gets rediculous.
You don't stick to only zerglings until the 20:00 mark when he has a huge marine ball and tanks It is only a way to play early and mid (or early mid) game, and then later transition into muta ling bling or infestor ling bling ultra/broodlord or whatever you wish. Of course 3-3 marines kill 3-3 zerglings, but you should have something other than lings at that point
Thanks for the guide, which is very well received. Some confidence in the humble zergling is really going to help zerg a lot, especially since it is done in a way that dictates the pace of the game to the opponent. As a spectator I just always hate watching ling/bling/muta. It's so fragile that I never know 'if zerg has enough', and the outcome always seems trivial (unless there's a complete stomping of T's base or if Z slips up at the start of the midgame and allows a foothold outside his natural). Watching mutas run from marines for 30 mins just isn't fun, and incidentally it's because of this that I've not wanted to ever play this 'standard' unit comp.
I wonder then why you add mutas to your army to spend gas? How are they worth the investment? If you want to spend some T2, why not get a nydus (to negate the defences T will build up such as wall-ins and bunkers against run-bys), drops, burrow? or if you want units, why not hydras (I like hydras!), or if not hydras then infestors, but something that actually supports your ling army?
On September 03 2011 06:22 Stardroid wrote: Thanks for the guide, which is very well received. Some confidence in the humble zergling is really going to help zerg a lot, especially since it is done in a way that dictates the pace of the game to the opponent. As a spectator I just always hate watching ling/bling/muta. It's so fragile that I never know 'if zerg has enough', and the outcome always seems trivial (unless there's a complete stomping of T's base or if Z slips up at the start of the midgame and allows a foothold outside his natural). Watching mutas run from marines for 30 mins just isn't fun, and incidentally it's because of this that I've not wanted to ever play this 'standard' unit comp.
I wonder then why you add mutas to your army to spend gas? How are they worth the investment? If you want to spend some T2, why not get a nydus (to negate the defences T will build up such as wall-ins and bunkers against run-bys), drops, burrow? or if you want units, why not hydras (I like hydras!), or if not hydras then infestors, but something that actually supports your ling army?
Best Stardroid
I've actually been using this strategy since I read this post. I found that 1 gas isn't quite enough to support the zergling upgrades/lair you need, so you have to get at least 2. But I've found that 2 is more than enough for just the zergling upgrades and you end up with excess gas while on t2/getting your third. Typically when I get to t2, I get burrow, overlord speed, the carapace/melee upgrades, and you've already spent a bit of gas. I also try to fit in drops if I can, especially if I was unable to delay their third for some reason.
Overlord speed is good for creeping expansions, burrow is good for delaying those expansions even longer, as well as intel on when they move out. They are all very useful upgrades that I never would have gotten if I spent all that on mutalisks right away.
To be honest, I'm pretty surprised how effective zerglings are against terran armies. In theory, they should not be as good as they are, but in practice, terran players seem to be very late on their upgrades for some reason. Maybe they are spending all that gas on tanks, which are 125 gas apiece? I mean, 5 tanks isn't THAT scary when you have so many zerglings, and 5 tanks are 625 gas, which is 2 melee and 2 carapace upgrades.
@Xanbatou thanks for the heads up on the gas costs - haven't tried it myself yet as I'm not home atm. Yeah It's really surprising how swarmy Z can be with lings, negating all those tech units. It's good that Z can reverse the roles like this and tech up by using a mineral-dump unit like T does as it says in the OP. I used to go with the Spanishiwa Ice Fisher style which gets lings when you saturate 2 bases around 7 or so minutes, and they're just so completely handy.
I really think you're onto something with the T2 tech. Mutas just seem such a waste to me. Even just burrow delaying his econ (forced scans, delayed expo) keeps your decisions at the centre of the game... gj!
Oh and when I look at builds for T or P and it says 'and if all he has is lings you can just laugh your silly head right off' or something like that, I can't help thinking - the hand's on the other foot when you've been massing turbo upgraded lings for the past two minutes just to nibble his gibblets off.
Read the guide. It's really interesting. I do have a few thoughts though that actually came from playing a team monobattle.
One of my allies randomed the zergling, which I thought was going to be useless besides perhaps an early push. But he just kept producing them... He got on 3 bases and had 5 macro hatches. I don't know if he was hitting his injects, but just seeing the raw amount of zerglings he could produce was insane. And then he did something interesting...
He teched up really quickly like you said, although for him it was because of the upgrades and not for ultras (I <3 ultras) but he also dropped 5 nydus cannals. That meant he could make 5 nydus worms at once.
And with this guide... well, if lings are so useful in their mobility, why not increase that mobility more? It would be something to do while getting ultras out as early gas should be spent on upgrades and lair/hive/ultras. But while getting the ultras on a healthy 4 base economy (again using ling mobility to secure this) why not just start spamming nydus worms? Imagine what a terran would feel like if each of his bases had at least 1 and sometimes 2 nyduses spawning with ultras and lings popping out all over. What do?
I tried your build out on ladder and it seemed really effective against marine tank however if the terran scouts what your doing and cuts out tanks and just goes mass marine maruder with good upgrades what do you do to counter that? Also good job on the guide very well written.
The problem I'm running into is that the terran sees my fuck ton of zergligns, so he just turtles on 2 base for a while. Then he comes out with a lot of tanks (2 fact), marines, and a lot of medivac. If this push fails, he pretty much loses because he has no third, but it feels like it is impossible for to me to stop the push with just zerglings, esp because of all the medivacs. Ultras aren't done yet.
On September 04 2011 00:04 kushm4sta wrote: The problem I'm running into is that the terran sees my fuck ton of zergligns, so he just turtles on 2 base for a while. Then he comes out with a lot of tanks (2 fact), marines, and a lot of medivac. If this push fails, he pretty much loses because he has no third, but it feels like it is impossible for to me to stop the push with just zerglings, esp because of all the medivacs. Ultras aren't done yet.
If he comes before having multiple medivacs, you can beat it with pure zergling, as long as you flank. If he waits long enough to have a lot of medivacs, you should have your lair tech available. I go infestors and crush any kind of bio push, but even with mutas I think you could take it.
To prevent the marine running from the ultra, i use zergling. I sometimes use infestor, right before getting ultra if i fear a terran push might happen just before.
I don't like broodlord, viking counter them so easily, and they already have the infrastructure for them.
As a terran I normally make 2-4 Medivacs and switch to pure Viking production whether there are broods or not. I find that a mixture of vikings+medivacs helps vs Mutaflocks a lot. It also helps compensate for when there are lots of broodlords as well as land quickly once I notice that there are banelings threatening my marines. But most of all, I also like getting a flock of 4-5 vikings to hunt overlords on one side of the map while doing drops on the other side of the map while pushing with my main army.
Hi guys. I played further with this style and i have to agree on what you guys said. It is far better to go for overlord speed and burrow to delay expansion as much as possible. Some muta to deal with drops are still useful.
So i have some fun replays for today:
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Against mech. I turtle myself against BFH, then go for a very effective mass roach burrow
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This one is for fun. After holding a 3 rax pressure (lol) i go straight into ultra. Total no match
I have two problems with this build/way of playing. 1. Air 2. 1/1/1 Are you to say that you should scout and have tech ready (as tech for zerg is easy to tech switch). ? You can have mutas and corruptors out to attack air, but wouldn't it be wiser to mass produce something other than zerglings when your small ling army dies? Otherwise, Very nice guide, I might try it some time :D Definately recommending it to my friends who main only zerg
About 3rd game, double spire was actually a mistake, so i decided to go double upgrade and brood lord indeed because of it. Ups ! Double roach warren was intentional though
I realized i've made a lot of progress since i uploaded this replays, it's great to see. I just can't wait to see the 4th one !
Great to see you agree about the burrow OLspeed discussion vs mutas! Those winged beasties need special commitment of their own and muta/ling is a poor way to consolidate this style imo...
I wonder if I can ask you whether you have tried going for an in-base hatch (at 14) before taking the natural? The extra larva is just what a zergling-centric style needs, and you can saturate your bases very quickly given the opportunity, and also make more lings quicker. Of course it delays your expand, but you're looking to get game control quickly rather than build a two-base economy quickly (the standard style). So what do you think?
A macro hatch before expand has really no point. As you can see in my replays i'm already going for a super early macro hatch. On Xel naga, i land it around 4:30, while my natural is only half way done. It is soon enough to deal with any early push, and up and running for mid game. Usually, a macro hatch before expands means all in of one base. My goal is indeed to take early control of the game, but it is also to saturate 2 base quickly. Actually, you must saturate your 2 base with 50 drone at least and THEN start the zergling production. It differs from "standard style", which is to get an earlier third, try to drone up some and then only make unit if needed.
aXa, I've been having a bit of trouble vs helions. If I play a smart terran and they see how many zerglings I'm making, they will switch to full-on helion production. Zerglings cannot take 8+ blue flame helions, so what do you do? Do you go roaches and try for some burrow play? Get earlier infestors for fungal?
On September 08 2011 03:00 aXa wrote: Roach and burrow, against mech it's really powerful. Gonna show you a replay
Yeah, if I know they are going mech, sometimes I will go massive roach drop. That way all their tanks are useless, and they are bound to have a bunch since they are going mech.
The problem is, I've played a couple terrans that basically go marine helion. Helions basically rape all my zerglings, and the stimmed marines can rape all my roaches. So I am not sure what to do against that.
Thanks for your reply aXa, I understand having a macro hatch is great and it's great that you have one in your BO. I think there might be a good point in letting your macro hatch actually finish first before planting your expansion, as it allows perhaps for extra defence. Planting the macro as early as you say seems like you've dumped 600 minerals in a reall short timeframe without any larva in play until your expansion completes. In an extreme situation you might have to sac the expansion before it finishes, then either have to wait for the macro hatch to finish or sac that one too. I'm told a small marine push can come at 5 mins is that right? Maybe I'm being pedantic about it, but I think that being able to drone from 2 hatches is possible whichever hatch you go for first, and the in-base one is safer. By the time you're fully saturated on one base you'll have had your expo up anyway, so there's really no harm...?
On September 08 2011 03:38 Stardroid wrote: Thanks for your reply aXa, I understand having a macro hatch is great and it's great that you have one in your BO. I think there might be a good point in letting your macro hatch actually finish first before planting your expansion, as it allows perhaps for extra defence. Planting the macro as early as you say seems like you've dumped 600 minerals in a reall short timeframe without any larva in play until your expansion completes. In an extreme situation you might have to sac the expansion before it finishes, then either have to wait for the macro hatch to finish or sac that one too. I'm told a small marine push can come at 5 mins is that right? Maybe I'm being pedantic about it, but I think that being able to drone from 2 hatches is possible whichever hatch you go for first, and the in-base one is safer. By the time you're fully saturated on one base you'll have had your expo up anyway, so there's really no harm...?
Best Stardroid
i played that for some time 16 pool 15 macro hatch ~18 expansion hatch (round 4'00..4'30). you delay second queen to afford this. while this is a pretty robust build (you may even come back when losing nat), you will oversaturate your main because expansion is somewhat late. If you choose to play agressive early on its ok, since you anyway will build a bunch of lings, so no oversaturation happens. Anyway only do macro before exe if the expansion is blocked. However as my injects got better i ended up delaying the macrohatch up to 5'30..6'30. Still a good 2x2 build if you scout heavy rush play incoming (block choke with hatch + queen to fend of mass hellion).
Hey axa, I just started to playing this no bane style and I just love zvt right now ). I feel like Im 100% more cost efficient with my muta/ling/infestor its just insane . My practice partners Ive played 50/50 I just crush now unless they go marine/BFH and I dont scout that in time (but thaths mostly me beeing bad). Also i feel like ling/infestor alone is best at beating this comp rather then roaches but that needs more games . The only thing Im little not sure about is the initial gas timing + how many gas you take i feel like i dont actually need 6 gas on 3 base coz i pump so much lings i keep floating my gas pretty high untill i get to T3.
I have read the post, and would like your thoughts on combining ultra's and broodlords, the same way you use the ling-runby. I do this at times, where I make broodlords right outside his base while pushing the front.
i have developed this kind of style for my own over my last zvt's however, as in all matchups i do this style upgrade-heavy. Get double zergling upgrades going asap and keep them coming. You know how hard fully upgraded marines can beat zerglings who have no upgrades? Well, the opposite is true as well. Try to stay ahead/on par in the upgrade section and you can even be really cost-effective against 40+ stimmed marines (that is, if you surround them :p)
furthermore, i get drop + overlord speed + burrow + baneling nest when i reach lair. Baneling bombs on marines are way more effective than you might think they would be (if you can get a hit in of course. If your opponent runs, he wont have the crazy marine dps, so your zerglings clean up). When most times banelings would just evaporate by some (aimed) siege tank shots, you can get them in quite safely with overlords if you bring a few extra. And hitting in the middle of the marines does about 4-5 times the damage a baneling would have done from outside the marine ball. Also, at least getting like 4-6 banelings and burrowing them in pairs is a really small investion considering you get burrow anyway (and the baneling nest for drops on marines/hellions/worker lines). 2 Banelings burrowed cost 100 minerals and 50 gas, but its not that rare for them to wipe out 1000-1500 minerals worth of marines if you place them in smart spots (and will therefore destroy pushes if your opponent is not careful enough. Just don't burrow them on creep, terrans seem to scan anyway as soon as they reach your hard work)
And last (but not least) i tend to prefer air armor over air weapons. Sure, mutalisks are great and so on. But think about this: You may do some less damage to turrets, but you also take a lot less fire. So most of the time i bet it won't change a thing in lost hp. When you attack a medivac full of marines, its kinda the same thing. Except for if you have enough mutalisks to wipe them out in an instant, so you just reduce the fire your mutas take until they are in firing range. But mostly, air armor fits in nicely with overlords (for drops/scouts etc) and brood lords if you wish to get them, since afaik they do more dmg with the broodlings than with their shots anyways. It will help defending small groups of stimmed marines sneaking up on them much better than attack upgrades. And if you attack a fortified position it depends on your opponnents vikings/your infestors, never on your broodlord attack damage.
Seems well thought out unfortunately ultras are a useless unit and a Terran can kill this purely by pumping marines. A marine ball can't be killed by any number of zerglings you throw at it. Broods are better then ultras in almost every situation i can think of.
In reality i see this not working at all against a Terran who actually scouts.
i was getting fed up by how to play my ZvT and going for the standard ling/bling muta and losing to tank pushes over and over again.
but this seems like a total different kind of playstyle and looks like its doing the job as long as you can fend of the drops and stuff, looks like it doesnt even matter if you lose a couple of drones early on, cause you're focussing on minerals so heavy the whole time.
Despite a stupid AI pattern, ultra are quite good. They are not huge damage dealer but they sure tank a lot.
They are far better than broodlord with this style for several reasons:
-First you have already the upgrades (3-3), so they are more efficient -Second, they are fast enough to not be totally outrun by zergling, allowing your army to be coherent -Third, they fit very well with zergling: Zergling allow ultra to hit even marines by surrounding them. Ultra absorb initial marine and tank shot, which is the time where zergling is cost ineffective because they are not in range yet. -Fourth, zergling and ultra tank an impressive amount of damage: Zergling because they take a lot of over-kill, ultra by they high armor and HP. The two combined allow you to overrun a terran army in a decisive fashion. -At last, utlra force marauder or ghost which are terrible against zergling.
Anyway, broodlord are too slow and easily counter by ghost/viking.
Here is a replay against a dropping player (all game long), with a BFH/marine elevator push in the early game.
I was experimentig with spanishiwa oppening, and playing mass ling and teching was the best idea ever. Exp and 4th hatch right when we got critical mass of drones and minerals. adn then masss lings and tech ^^
Some things about zerglings vs marine/tank. If you surround the terran ball properly Marines will die even from tank splash demage. Very nice guide.
On September 01 2011 22:46 Oboeman wrote: Great post.
this is basically how I have been playing ZvT over the last few months, and it is incredible.
I take a very fast macro hatch, you can drone uninterrupted to 2 base saturation and churn out a ton of zerglings while you take your gas.
You can easily have 60 lings out in time for a ~10 minute push with 15 marines, 3 tanks, and a medivac, and the zerglings win.
I use my gas for 6-8 infestors and double upgrades, I get burrow, drops, and a quick hive. When you have a lot of lings you want to have them burrowed at every expo all over the map for scouting information.
If he does a big push, I can flank it and kill it with infestor support. If he goes mass drops you split up your lings and infestors to defend your bases. If he expands, you drop zerglings into his main, or run into his natural, or burrow infestors around, or just keep expanding and get hive.
aXa, do you have any specific tips for defeating the 9:30 Marine Tank push with pure +1/+1 Lings? Do you try splitting in 2-3 groups? Do you counter? I feel that the reason people push for early Mutas is for that specific push and drops (which can start around 9 min after 2 rax).
Have one premade group of lings roaming the map, produce reinforcements, and flank him when he gets too close.
aXa, would you mind adding a little more of a supplementary bit and/or replays about dealing with BFH openings/timing pushes? I think a little deeper insight into that might help any lower tier Z's about how you prepare and handle it.
I use queens and spines to keep hellions out of my base. It's difficult to take a 3rd base before lair unless he makes a mistake and lets you surround him with lings. Usually I get infestors (or muta) then double expo after a BFH opening. The slayers BFH elevator is trivial to hold off with queens and lings as long as you have creep in your main and have the queens in position when the medivac arrives.
If you want a pro example of this kind of playstyle, look at DRG vs MKP from MVP vs PRime in the GSTL. This weekend the vods are free!
DRG goes straight to 4 hatcheries and crushes a timing attack with pure zergling, then transitions into mutalisk zergling baneling.
One thing that bothers me to no end in pro zerg play is how they always fall so far behind on upgrades, and then their zergling baneling no longer trades effectively. 2/0 ling/bane against 2/2 marines... you won't get a single hit unless the terran player really screws up. If you don't rely heavily on banelings, you can stay ahead of their upgrades, and if your carapace matches their attack upgrade, your units are always pretty good.
I think especially the +carapace upgrade in ZVT is way undervalued by current playstyles - look at BW, and how incredibly important +1 carapace and +2 carapace was. If the terran got his +attack late, he could be in serious trouble. If the zerg got his corresponding +carapace late, he was suddenly paralyzed, his lurkers less able to move about and more vulnerable to vanilla bio + scans, well before the tank/vessel timing that should start threatening lurkers more.
I feel as though it gets to a point where zerglings are useless against marines though. For example, 170 zerglings (1/1) against 55 marines (1/1), 2 siege tanks and 2 medivacs results in the terran winning the engagement with ~45 marines left.
Without something to take down those marine balls you just die horrible to midgame pushes. Really need banelings to deal with them, or at least infestors.
I really like the Idea of mass upgraded lings, and neglect banes in early game.
I tested your build and I think there is a big hole after your investments at 28/28. The blind investment of 2 spines, 2 evos, 5 set of lings and then macro hatch, extractor, 2 additional queens, leaves you with only 16-18 drones at ~6:00. You then put 6 drones in gas, so only 10-12 on minerals. You could catch up in drones very quickly because of larvae, but I feel you really lack minerals at this point.
I think that 2 spines, 4 queens and 7 sets of lings are too much of blind defense. Especially 2 spines, if you have 2 than 4 queens vs hellions and want to fight in open space anyways. Another idea is to not take drones of gas, get only one evo, and upgrade attack, then armor. You get your first ugrade faster, the second a bit later, and you safe 2 drones early for additional evo and exctractor.
hi im a bronze terran, i think that many zerglings are hard to deal with but i go banshee if i see many zerglings because they didnt attack air. when he sees my banshee he has to build turrets and then i have enough time to build a thor to counter the mutas. sry for my bad english hope i could help
On September 08 2011 20:04 Peleus wrote: I feel as though it gets to a point where zerglings are useless against marines though. For example, 170 zerglings (1/1) against 55 marines (1/1), 2 siege tanks and 2 medivacs results in the terran winning the engagement with ~45 marines left.
Without something to take down those marine balls you just die horrible to midgame pushes. Really need banelings to deal with them, or at least infestors.
Good thing 170 lings doesn't cost any gas, which means you could either have 2/2 or at least two infestors at that point in time. and I hope those lings were in two or more control groups.
Most of my games in ZvT i win almost with pure Zerglings while having a few Infestors in the base to deny drops, delay pushes, etc. Everything else is done by lings, lings and more lings.
Speedlings with upgrades are really cost efficient against anything and even sieged tanks are not too hard to crack with speedlings if you go for a flank (though of course it's better to catch them unsieged).
A problem with lings is: Few lings can look like a lot and make you think you are ahead while in fact your army only has half the supply/cost size of the opponent. You need to develop a feel for how many zerglings you really have to understand how small armies you are actually used to throw at superior armies.
20 marines and 3 tanks cost as much as 70 speedlings (1 marine = 2 speedlings, 1 tank = ~10 speedlings) and 70 speedlings rip such a force apart in seconds. Time and time again i see Zerg throwing 30-40 speedlings at such a force because it looks equal in size and then they die a horrible death.
So my tip to all Zerg players: - Build TONs of lings - Stay ahead in upgrades - Get hive fast for adrenal glands and 3/3 - Get drop tech, 3 overlords full of lings rip apart all production facilities of a terran in mere seconds and you don't even need to micro them - Attack a lot and keep his tank and marine numbers low, don't sit back and wait for him to get the critical number where speedlings stop being cost efficient
Very nice post. I actually do this same build in zvp. The only difference is that when you see the toss going air (in zvt's case mech) go hydra. Really liked the post though. Very nice and great job analyzing everything. ^_^ GG
Edit: Meant to say I am going to start doing this. Hope it goes well. :D
Edit #2: Thanks so much for the help. Also to the ragers who have posted after me. Stop QQ'ing man up, and learn how to play the game like your suppose to. All the what if's you state can be solved by scouting.
On September 08 2011 22:54 00Visor wrote: I really like the Idea of mass upgraded lings, and neglect banes in early game.
I tested your build and I think there is a big hole after your investments at 28/28. The blind investment of 2 spines, 2 evos, 5 set of lings and then macro hatch, extractor, 2 additional queens, leaves you with only 16-18 drones at ~6:00. You then put 6 drones in gas, so only 10-12 on minerals. You could catch up in drones very quickly because of larvae, but I feel you really lack minerals at this point.
I think that 2 spines, 4 queens and 7 sets of lings are too much of blind defense. Especially 2 spines, if you have 2 than 4 queens vs hellions and want to fight in open space anyways. Another idea is to not take drones of gas, get only one evo, and upgrade attack, then armor. You get your first ugrade faster, the second a bit later, and you safe 2 drones early for additional evo and exctractor.
Maybe i didn't make myself very clear about this point of the build.
-This is not a "blind" reaction. I only go for 2 spine 2 evo if i scout reactor-hellion.
-You don't get the 2 queen and 2 gas that early. Watch the replay you'll see i get them a tad late, with maybe 24-30 drone around 6:30. So it's not a huge investment.
Your build is not viable in high level, you trade early minerals (that could've been lings or drones) for a macro hatch. You trade early minerals (by putting drones on gas non-stop) for gas. You trade early economy (drones) for 2 blind spines and 2 evo chambers. You trade tech for upgrades. There is NO way you can play vs terran without mutas.
If terran do all-harass builds, you have no banelings to bust the bunkers. If the terran go hellions and medivacs, you'll have no mutalisks. If terran doesnt do anything (like newbies macro macro macro then do one big push), then your build is good.
You can play without gas (fish cutter), but not without minerals.
EDIT
Okay, sorry, i wont discuss your build anymore. You won like 5 games where terran a + moves to your base, with creep, without sieging up.
On September 09 2011 04:28 DW-Unrec wrote: Your build is not viable in high level, you trade early minerals (that could've been lings or drones) for a macro hatch. You trade early minerals (by putting drones on gas non-stop) for gas. You trade early economy (drones) for 2 blind spines and 2 evo chambers. You trade tech for upgrades. There is NO way you can play vs terran without mutas.
If terran do all-harass builds, you have no banelings to bust the bunkers. If the terran go hellions and medivacs, you'll have no mutalisks. If terran doesnt do anything (like newbies macro macro macro then do one big push), then your build is good.
Are you serious? Please try to be more reasonable next time, this build is viable for sure in high level starcraft, if you want evidence, please check out pheonix's stream and such.
Early minerals? You can take a third or make more lings or make more drones, it is totally up to your preference i believe, last time i checked you don't follow someone's build/mindset COMPLETELY.
All harass - Bunker wtf? Nice mid game bunker harass.
Upon scouting Marine Hellion Medivac elevator drop, lings and queens are some of the best answers zerg can have, muta comes way too late into play.
No you don't need muta for ever single game, if you think you are better than destiny(not the best example but he is better than most people for sure), Nestea ( who played a non-muta game against Ensnare) and many many other zerg innovaators, please, enlighten me. Or else, provide more evidence and logic explanation behind your points.
Don't bother yourself. He believes that i get 2 early gas which is exactly what i do NOT do. He said he watched replays but he must be blind or something.
TL has to stop using "You did not posted an argument" as an excuse. I DO posted my argument. If you cant see it, read the whole post.
Why im wrong? You sacrifice early minerals to make what, lings? As you said on OP, "50 lings at 10 minutes is not the same as 50 lings at 15."
@EDIT
lings and queens, if he does BFH you lose you map control till you have your 14 minute mutas. And what are you gonna do if terran turtles? Expand? Nah, i forgot you make macro hatches and mass lings instead of expansions.
On September 09 2011 04:39 DW-Unrec wrote: TL has to stop using "You did not posted an argument" as an excuse. I DO posted my argument. If you cant see it, read the whole post.
Why im wrong? You sacrifice early minerals to make what, lings? As you said on OP, "50 lings at 10 minutes is not the same as 50 lings at 15."
This is not a troll post. Can i add you on SC? I'd like to talk to you, but i hate PMs.
You did, but clearly, i don't see any logical reasonings behind it, and i am willing to take advice of aXa and be done with people like you.
For god sake, he didn't say:" HERP THA DERP< ONLY MAKE LINGSSSSSSSSSSZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ" But clearly you are not smart of an individual to adapt to your opponents.
On September 09 2011 04:38 aXa wrote: Don't bother yourself. He believes that i get 2 early gas which is exactly what i do NOT do. He said he watched replays but he must be blind or something.
You make 1 gas, and mine it non-stop. Plus you build 2 evos and 2 spines. This means less minerals and less lings.
You won 5 games where the terran a moves into 80 lings. This is code A?
On September 09 2011 04:38 aXa wrote: Don't bother yourself. He believes that i get 2 early gas which is exactly what i do NOT do. He said he watched replays but he must be blind or something.
You make 1 gas, and mine it non-stop. Plus you build 2 evos and 2 spines. This means less minerals.
Oh yeah, you should not get Ling speed, because you get less minerals. You should not expand, because oyu lose more minerals, you should not get upgrade and make evo chamber because you get less minerals.
On September 09 2011 04:38 aXa wrote: Don't bother yourself. He believes that i get 2 early gas which is exactly what i do NOT do. He said he watched replays but he must be blind or something.
You won 5 games where the terran a moves into 80 lings. This is code A?
speed is less minerals. But its worth it. Macro hatch is less minerals, but its worth. Early +1/+1 is less minerals, but is not worth it. Why? Because you are commiting to lings and banelings. And I dont see adaptation, since you blindly make 2 spines. Always. AND you are commited to lings.
I see, you say lings are the core of your army, but they cant do miracles, they cant with harass. Watch sheth vs select on shattered temple.
I make 1 gas, then pull off. He goes BFH ? I go roaches. I produce a fuck ton of drone. Building 2 spine and 2 evos are mb 4 drone, but that's usually less than hellion killing drone in your base, or larvae spend in zergling to hold off hellion. I don't produce ling until i have 50 drone. I get my gas around 30-35 drone. You just didn't real the whole discussion here.
If you want see me making drone, here is a fine replay with 80 drone and 3 base before the 16 min mark.
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No, you can't add me on SC or even PM me.
For god sake, +1 +1 is a long term advantage. It is more than worth it.
On September 09 2011 04:48 DW-Unrec wrote: speed is less minerals. But its worth it. Macro hatch is less minerals, but its worth. Early +1/+1 is less minerals, but is not worth it. Why? Because you are commiting to lings and banelings. And I dont see adaptation, since you blindly make 2 spines. Always.
Lol read his guide, he said make 2 reactionary spines upon scouting hellion openings. And heavy upgraded Ling style has been confirmed as an effective style of play by many many pros and non likes.
You said you in OP you like to makes lings, be safe, then drone.
" +1 +1 is a long term advantage. "
Indeed, thats good in macro games. Watch sheth vs select on shattered temple. All I see while I watch this is "if sheth had less minerals, he would'nt be able to afford any drones and lings. Why? Beucase select is harassing non-stop.
--
Ah, my strongest argument this build is weak is because you play vs newbies. Who a moves with unsieged tanks on creep on code A?
On September 09 2011 04:56 DW-Unrec wrote: "I don't produce ling until i have 50 drone."
You said you in OP you like to makes lings, be safe, then drone.
" +1 +1 is a long term advantage. "
Indeed, thats good in macro games. Watch sheth vs select on shattered temple. All I see while I watch this is "if sheth had less minerals, he would'nt be able to afford any drones and lings. Why? Beucase select is harassing non-stop.
--
Ah, my strongest argument this build is weak is because you play vs newbies. Who a moves with unsieged tanks on creep on code A?
Because every Terran on the planet expect zerg to sit in their bases? If you catch any terran of guard, i don't care if you are MVP or MKP, you will die. And pure ling composition is designed to catch terrans off guard, however, i am realizing i am making a huge idiot out of myself by talking to you, however, it is worth it if i can get you off this thread through reasonings.
From terran point of view, this strat can have huge success on ladder. Mixing standard play with aggressive style to make us terrans think what you zergs will do can at least force scan but in most cases win you game. If i push in wrong time i lose, if i push too late i lose too, coz i cant beat zerg's makro. this thinking will shift metagame and make TvZ even more interesting.
The foundation of this seems similar to Destiny's infestor timing push, fast tech, fast upgrades, fuck tons of lings - to make a cost effective zerg army.
I am so sick of trying to dodge siege tanks with banelings I think I will try out this style, though I will probably use my own build orders than the one's posted.
Also I think it would be cool to use this style and then add baneling mines in mid/late game before ever showing banelings to hopefully catch them off guard.
It's certainly viable in ladder (btw big thanks to aXa, i also use your ZvZ guide). In my opinion you can't play this all the time on pro level, any smart player in a best of X series will just start playing more defensive and more macro heavy when he sees this several times. But you surely could play this style in some games as a pro.
On September 09 2011 05:10 wBsKillian wrote: It's certainly viable in ladder (btw big thanks to aXa, i also use your ZvZ guide). In my opinion you can't play this all the time on pro level, any smart player in a best of X series will just start playing more defensive and more macro heavy when he sees this several times.
That's a given ofc. I do not design pro-build strategies. My guide are supposed to improve your laddering with solid build, using new faces of zerg capacities.
For example, my 9 pool is really an amazing ladder build, but you can't expect to do it every time in a BoX. If a pro player was exclusively using this build, other pro will figure it out and destroy it.
yeah, and I thank you for this, gave me a huge boost of my ZvZ winratio. I just wanted to make this clear to people complaining about the game level in the replays.
Just tried this out on my last match with a terran. Now im only in silver, but i have been having a bit of difficulty with countering terran bios as of late, and this strat worked like a charm. The terran quit once i demolished his marines with mass lings out of frustration lol. Ty for the idea
I've been doing this my last few matches against Terran and I'm amazed at how strong and underrated 3-3 ultra-ling is. I even managed to break a mech contain once with proper ling spread. Also, I think this has been said before, but Terrans who play very turtle and wait for one big push do pretty well against this.
In my most recent game, the guy went marine-tank mass-ghost, with his marine-tank getting rolled en route but the 15 or so ghosts going uncontested through my bases. I definitely needed banelings that game but that's my terrible gamesense failing to act.
On September 09 2011 06:46 _bang wrote: I've been doing this my last few matches against Terran and I'm amazed at how strong and underrated 3-3 ultra-ling is. I even managed to break a mech contain once with proper ling spread. Also, I think this has been said before, but Terrans who play very turtle and wait for one big push do pretty well against this.
In my most recent game, the guy went marine-tank mass-ghost, with his marine-tank getting rolled en route but the 15 or so ghosts going uncontested through my bases. I definitely needed banelings that game but that's my terrible gamesense failing to act.
You must play aggressive, don't let them come to you. Multi-pronged attacks with a drop in their main to draw most units away from the front and shortly after a frontal assault did the job for me quite often. Of course it depends on the map and the available area for an attack, but if you sit back and wait for a 200/200 push you will die.
Drops are still far too underused for Zerg considering that you have a ton of overlords anyways and Speedlings are so effective at destroying bases and mineral lines:-/
logic seems solid, but this whole build revolves around anticipating T attacks, what if they just don't attack? and instead play defensively?
Also I'm slightly dissapointed in your justification for ultras over blord, its surprisingly lacking compared to your in depth analysis of zerglings. otherwise great post!
aXa...mid/low masters player here. Big fan of your guides even though I'm terrible at ZvZ.
My question is, what do you do when the Terran survives to the late game...and gets out about 12 ghosts? I have to make mass ling/overseer/broodlord? I don't understand life at the point when terran starts using ghosts.
On September 09 2011 09:31 tsarnicky wrote: logic seems solid, but this whole build revolves around anticipating T attacks, what if they just don't attack? and instead play defensively?
Also I'm slightly dissapointed in your justification for ultras over blord, its surprisingly lacking compared to your in depth analysis of zerglings. otherwise great post!
---->
On September 08 2011 18:20 aXa wrote: Despite a stupid AI pattern, ultra are quite good. They are not huge damage dealer but they sure tank a lot.
They are far better than broodlord with this style for several reasons:
-First you have already the upgrades (3-3), so they are more efficient -Second, they are fast enough to not be totally outrun by zergling, allowing your army to be coherent -Third, they fit very well with zergling: Zergling allow ultra to hit even marines by surrounding them. Ultra absorb initial marine and tank shot, which is the time where zergling is cost ineffective because they are not in range yet. -Fourth, zergling and ultra tank an impressive amount of damage: Zergling because they take a lot of over-kill, ultra by they high armor and HP. The two combined allow you to overrun a terran army in a decisive fashion. -At last, utlra force marauder or ghost which are terrible against zergling.
Anyway, broodlord are too slow and easily counter by ghost/viking.
Here is a replay against a dropping player (all game long), with a BFH/marine elevator push in the early game.
[url blocked]
If that's not enough for you i can't help it.
aXa...mid/low masters player here. Big fan of your guides even though I'm terrible at ZvZ.
My question is, what do you do when the Terran survives to the late game...and gets out about 12 ghosts? I have to make mass ling/overseer/broodlord? I don't understand life at the point when terran starts using ghosts.
I think zergling are the best answer against ghosts. Maybe some roaches. But definitely never go brood/ultra against them.
Can I have a replay where you do this build and your opponents do not a+move into your lings? I want someone that siege up the tanks too.
Are you asking me to make mistakes ? A terran army in the middle of the map really have little time to siege up when an horde of ling come running at them. And there is no point for them to siege pre-emptively in the middle of the map. The whole point here is to catch them unsieged. But again, maybe you forgot to read the guide.
I think it can work but if they play like a thorzain style. So passive and slowly moving towards your base it gets a lot harder. You want to catch them in the open and if they slowly move towards you it can be a bit hard. I would like to add drop play with this style to spread him out a bit
Hey axa have you been thinking about getting infestors instead of mutas since 1) fungal greatly reduces madivac abilty to overheal ling damage therefore killing rine/medivac/BFH(wich i think is hardest coutner to this) is WAY easier 2) Lings themselves with good ovie spread and creep spread cn pretty much clean any drops therefore no real NEED of mutas 3) Getting faster hive (we can say hive-rush since ull be getting it at 3base) results in basically nonstop upgrade production heading towards broods/ultras
Infestors with burrow/drops can do pretty decent harras compared to mutas. Because i feel like 9/10 terrans just blindly prepare for mutas and this can catch them by surprise. Also stuff like 1 infestor harrasin siege line with single IT.
Only negative i see is that ling/muta is more mobile then ling/infestor but on other hand its better than other infestor orianted comps such as infestor/roach (nerchio).
EDIT: Ive just watched the latest replay u provided and i see you didnt use Mutas ^_^
Yep, the more this style i'm using, the less muta i go and the more like yoda i speak. i build infestation pit, go straight into hive then pull 4-5 infestors and then ultra. No muta !
I am yet another T (play random when team though), who doesn't understand why z never does some of things u stated here. I would try to incorporate nydus so you have more mobility, and try to freeze the rines in locations with festors while u snipe off tanks. that should gg it.
I have been experimenting with this style for the past 2 months. However, my build order opens up with very late gas timings.
Send out an early drone scout to scout for for terran's gas.
Against 2 rax (cheese or economic), it's very easy to hold off bunker rushes with no gas. You gain map control not from speedlings but from the sheer quantity of slow lings out in the map. Having an active pack of lings give you an opportunity to flank, instead of being forced to attack from only 1 direction as you try to build your forces at the last minute. If you can flank well you don't need to rely on speed for engagements. Against 2 raxes, Its totally fine to pump out over 10 lings, since you are mining more minerals instead of gas and you are not larva limited if you use injects immediately.
Against hellions expand, you cant get map control anyway, so might as well just skip gas and use the additional minerals to sim-city better and drone up. If gas is scouted, just pump out 1-2 sets of lings. Send a ling to their ramp to see they are indeed going factory and not techlab on rax. Drone up to 28 food. Get 1-2 spines, drone back up to 28, overlord, pump down a macro hatch and evo chamber if needed. Your sim-city that consists of spines, hatch, evo will be completed before hellions can reach your base. 3rd queen will only spread just 1 or 2 tumors around the base and help inject the macro hatch. The idea of this build is get your production rate ramp up much quicker, get back map control with the amount of lings you have instead of waiting for mutas. Because you cant get scouting info once you are contained by hellions, make sure you send a hidden ling or overlord scouting their natural. Their expansion timings will tell you whether they are going for 1 base all-in or banshees.
I always try to aim for a final composition of muta ling infestors. Hive tech is mainly for 3-3 crackling upgrades. Whether you go for mutas first or infestors depend on the situation. I have not really figured that out well, but if terran goes straight for marine tank instead of drops, it's preferable to go for infestors. You will have the raw strength to break a siege line if terran decides to turtle behind a fast 3rd. Remember to use neural parasite on tanks.
Hey aXa, I have a quick question for you. I'm a terran player and I see one hole in this, I feel like MMA-esque drop play would be very hard to deal with. It'd force you to stay in your base and have your army split. At this point he'd make a push into your third or your natural, and you'll have no map presence, right? Drop play would probably end the game very quickly, no disrespect here. I wanna see how you deal with it, because it looked like no terrans tried that out of the four games I have watched of you.
One small thing I have a problem with is the "no-Baneling" approach just isn't always viable. Occasionally you will get Terran players who will scout that you don't have a Baneling Nest [or just go blindly which is obnoxious] and just do a super heavy mass Marine style, or sometimes mass Marine/Medivac timing attack and without Banelings there isn't really a good way to deal with this.
Also, I'm not absolutely certain but would you be able to hold off a Marine/SCV all-in with this strat without any Banelings either?
I agree that Banelings are something I'd prefer to skip but sometimes depending on their tech route I have no choice but to use them or if I suspect something funny at the very least having a Bane Nest up as a precaution.
(now) mid Diamond Zerg here. Just wanna thank you for this amazing guide, helped my ZvT tremendous!
The "Oh you move out for a rine tank push" "I move into your Nat with 30 lings, kthx" never gets old. ^^ Its just hilarious how much Terrans think you won't have an army till they knock at your door.
And the delayed muta catches a lot of them off guard also.
Seems interesting.. unfortunately i just can't see this build ever beating pure mech if you never get infestors or broodlords.. I feel as if a terran can adapt to this relatively easily o.O
Good Guide. Its good for players with good game sense knowing when to counter or flank. Gives good map control and abuses the fastest unit in the game. Btw mixing in banes late game is prtty fucking good if u go ultra/speedbane because of their speed synergy. Food for thought.
I would like to raise a point on the very important 5th hatch's injection.
When you are on 3 bases, and with good saturation, 4 hatcheries (3 on bases, 1 macro) is not enough to spend all the resources. I watched all your games and you float about 1.5k minerals at those stages.
It is also the MOST CRUCIAL time of the game, that's when terran normally moves out with a huge ball, an extra round of production at 20 seconds earlier time is going to win/lose you the game because you will either break his ball or not.
For instance, this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpfaJ9i3Zy8&feature=player_embedded#! From 10:45 onward, your 3rd is fully online, you kept up with injection, and from the production tab you are constantly making units. However your mineral still goes above 1500 plenty times.
You had a 5th hatchery at an expansion, it is probably good idea to put a queen there and use it to inject. It seems when you expand to a 3rd, you will NEED another hatchery, 3 base, 5 hatch (bw hydra zvp standard) seems to work here, except with queens.
Maybe when expanding to a 3rd we should also throw down ANOTHER macro hatch. I feel with this build it is so important to keep the minerals low as long as possible while getting upgrades. 1500 mineral is 60 zerglings, which is going to make a huge difference (2 extra arms in a flank) but I need not tell you this.
So I'm going to try this, same build, but when I take my 3rd I will also make a macro hatch and maybe take a 4th soon after and keep up the larvae injection. My one SIMPLE goal is to never float minerals and slam out as much ling/roach(depend on context) as possible while getting the techs up. Reach 200 in an ungodly speed and start trading army intelligently.
Other than that there are small details I have to understand. At the 6:00 mark we build 2 queens, evos, and a macro hatch as part of our core infrastructure. This is pretty risky as it leaves you weak to a timing attack around 7th minute mark. My friend raised a good point about the macro hatch. Most of the times zerg don't make it, and that is going to be easier for them to fend off such timing attack without that investment.
Anyways, gonna watch this thread from now, nice guide, suits my playstyle immensely.
On September 12 2011 11:38 OSM.OneManArmy wrote: Seems interesting.. unfortunately i just can't see this build ever beating pure mech if you never get infestors or broodlords.. I feel as if a terran can adapt to this relatively easily o.O
Against pure mech i go pure roach.
I would like to raise a point on the very important 5th hatch's injection.
When you are on 3 bases, and with good saturation, 4 hatcheries (3 on bases, 1 macro) is not enough to spend all the resources. I watched all your games and you float about 1.5k minerals at those stages.
It is also the MOST CRUCIAL time of the game, that's when terran normally moves out with a huge ball, an extra round of production at 20 seconds earlier time is going to win/lose you the game because you will either break his ball or not.
For instance, this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpfaJ9i3Zy8&feature=player_embedded#! From 10:45 onward, your 3rd is fully online, you kept up with injection, and from the production tab you are constantly making units. However your mineral still goes above 1500 plenty times.
You had a 5th hatchery at an expansion, it is probably good idea to put a queen there and use it to inject. It seems when you expand to a 3rd, you will NEED another hatchery, 3 base, 5 hatch (bw hydra zvp standard) seems to work here, except with queens.
Maybe when expanding to a 3rd we should also throw down ANOTHER macro hatch. I feel with this build it is so important to keep the minerals low as long as possible while getting upgrades. 1500 mineral is 60 zerglings, which is going to make a huge difference (2 extra arms in a flank) but I need not tell you this.
So I'm going to try this, same build, but when I take my 3rd I will also make a macro hatch and maybe take a 4th soon after and keep up the larvae injection. My one SIMPLE goal is to never float minerals and slam out as much ling/roach(depend on context) as possible while getting the techs up. Reach 200 in an ungodly speed and start trading army intelligently.
Other than that there are small details I have to understand. At the 6:00 mark we build 2 queens, evos, and a macro hatch as part of our core infrastructure. This is pretty risky as it leaves you weak to a timing attack around 7th minute mark. My friend raised a good point about the macro hatch. Most of the times zerg don't make it, and that is going to be easier for them to fend off such timing attack without that investment.
Anyways, gonna watch this thread from now, nice guide, suits my playstyle immensely.
I do always float minerals at this stage it is true, but it is not a slip up in my macro. When i feel safe, i like to pool minerals and larvae. If i see nothing coming, i spend my ressources on tech to get ultra asap. Usually i start pooling minerals to have a lot saved when my ultra cavern is done as well. Otherwise, i try to macro/drone up if i'm sure there will be no push. I don't need to have all my zergling available on the field because they are quick to produce. Unlike other unit, as long as you have a solid core of zergling, you don't need to constantly produce them and pool an huge army size. It can be done at the last moment.
Btw guys, i'm now including zergling drop in my play. It is SO good !
On September 12 2011 19:22 aXa wrote: Btw guys, i'm now including zergling drop in my play. It is SO good !
Seen Sheth experimenting with this as well, it seems the psychological effects on the Terran are fairly profound even if you don't do a lot of damage.
Have you tried a similar style in ZvP? I noticed Stephano do this on stream a few times (4 or 5 hatches pumping lings, while teching up to a suitable unit).
RagequitTMO (from cast 1) wants to do a bo5 with aXa. Since I have an EU account as well, I can either livecast these or just cast and upload to YouTube later. Both players have agreed to do the bo5, we're just trying to figure out a time and day that works for all of us.
1. What triggers you to make the tech switch to roach? I know you say "if he's going pure mech, i go roach", however, to me, sometimes its not clear until its too late.
2. Even when I get roach, I'm kinda getting owned. How do you approach attacking a mech army that slowly moves across the map while dealing with those crazy fast hellions runnin around?
Forgot to mention - Great guide! Against those pesky marine tank pushes, i have creep halfway to his base and surround for the easy kill.
On September 13 2011 22:06 KangaRuthless wrote: RagequitTMO (from cast 1) wants to do a bo5 with aXa. Since I have an EU account as well, I can either livecast these or just cast and upload to YouTube later. Both players have agreed to do the bo5, we're just trying to figure out a time and day that works for all of us.
it will be increible if you can live stream it!! but a youtube video is also good!!! keep the good work!!! aXa fighting!!
On September 14 2011 00:13 cupapoo wrote: 2 questions!
1. What triggers you to make the tech switch to roach? I know you say "if he's going pure mech, i go roach", however, to me, sometimes its not clear until its too late.
2. Even when I get roach, I'm kinda getting owned. How do you approach attacking a mech army that slowly moves across the map while dealing with those crazy fast hellions runnin around?
Forgot to mention - Great guide! Against those pesky marine tank pushes, i have creep halfway to his base and surround for the easy kill.
1: By scouting ofc
2: Burrowing your roach army (not on creep, near his base) and unburrow when he walks on you is the best way. Against slow push, i try to use zergling on tank when BFH are not arround. Roaches are good to break slow push imo.
Awesome guide aXa, thx a lot. I really like your 9 pools against toss and zerg. Gonna be trying this out on the weekend. A question though, with this build, what do you find you struggle against?
On September 13 2011 22:06 KangaRuthless wrote: RagequitTMO (from cast 1) wants to do a bo5 with aXa. Since I have an EU account as well, I can either livecast these or just cast and upload to YouTube later. Both players have agreed to do the bo5, we're just trying to figure out a time and day that works for all of us.
it will be increible if you can live stream it!! but a youtube video is also good!!! keep the good work!!! aXa fighting!!
Actually, livestream would be best, but I'm not sure if I can run XSplit, FRAPS, and SC2 at the same time without destroying my computer
this is an excellent guide. Infact as a terran play myself there are only two things I fear - scouting a macro hatch and then being caught out of position. All too often I walk up to zergs base, siege up spread my marines and then wait for him to run into the best defence in the game. Then I get a 20 minute QQ about terran imba.
With the gas saved too you can get melee upgrades which make a good transition into ultra
Great guide man. Ive been using this style every game versus terran and get banelings only for mine purposes ( it works magic in gold league). I usually get hive straight after the infestor pit and get 10 infestors + the 200 lings and brood/ultra. Broods i found are better vs mech because its slow as well and ultras are better at breaking siege lines and keeping your army mobile.
Btw guys, i'm now including zergling drop in my play. It is SO good
zergling drop is amazing, I can't believe they are used so rarely.
In the IPL qualifier the other day, stephano played a bo3 against slayers MMA using heavy ling infestor ultralisk play.
He took fast 3rd + macro hatch at the same time, defended blueflames with just lings (this kinda surprised me). defended marine/tank with just lings (this one is easy) and went completely bossmode in the lategame. He did a few zergling drops as well, and they were sweet, but not nearly enough drops in my opinion!
the vod doesn't seem to be posted yet , great series.
as for the 5th hatch, I do agree with a 5th hatch when you saturated your 3rd. I usually put it at a 4th but can't saturate it yet, but if you can't secure a 4th (on most maps if you can hold 3 you can hold 4) then sure, macro hatch it. I encourage adding more hatcheries and instead of floating minerals you should be making lings and recycling them by dropping them! with drops there is always a way to create an opening where you can trade lings for damage.
Awesome, I've seen this build for ZvP as far as getting that macro hatch but against terran this is will really change the meta game up. And even if the terran goes for some hellions, since you're spending resources on lings mainly you should be able to have extra gas for 4 -7 roaches and still be able to get ling upgrades.
On September 14 2011 07:10 aXa wrote: I'm moving to paris tomorrow so no rush i very well may not available at all for the next 3 days ^^
Just tell me when you are, I promise you that it wont be as 1 sided since i was tired or no exuses, you will have a hard time beating me just pm when about a time etc
On September 01 2011 00:26 aXa wrote: In a general fashion, you guys all know that zerg is supposed to stay one base ahead of his opponent. Why is that? Mainly because zerg's armies are cost inefficient. Don't get me wrong, not crying to imbalance here. Zerg is supposed to have strength that other races don't have: Mobility and number.
I think there's more to it than this.
In BW ZvT, for instance, a zerg needed a third base to sustain a standard ling/lurker/defiler strategy against a standard marine/medic/tank/science vessel army. Terran could support this off two bases into the late game, but zerg desperately needed a third base for the gas-heavy lurkers and defilers.
I feel it's the same way with muta/ling/bling. Mutas and banelings are very gas-heavy and four geysers will not beat an aggressive terran. I see it all the time, especially on mlg casts, that the zerg going muta/ling/bane will lose their third and then lose the game a few minutes later because their production of gas-heavy units was shot. Macro hatches can equalize production, but it's the gas-heavy units that seem to always decide the battle.
I like your strategy, but I think I'll stick with the similar ling/infestor style that I've been doing since January (I first saw it casted by MrBitter around that time and then he made a TL post about it mid-Feb.). Honestly, the idea behind that strategy is very similar to the terran - spend all your gas on upgrades and tech while dumping the minerals into drones and lings. Once it is up start dumping gas in infestors.
I'm glad there are people out there who recognize the simplicity behind the terran marine/tank strategy, and I honestly think something just as simple (like ling/infestor) would work well. It's been working great for me, though I'm a plat zerg and many would argue that my opinion means nothing. Fair enough, but Stephano's IPL games against MKP, alive, and MMA where he uses this style have thoroughly convinced me that it works!
The first time i tried your strat i got dropped really fast (2 full medivacs) and lost a ton of lings because he got in a real good spot between my minerals in my main.
On September 21 2011 04:38 Skygrinder wrote: How do you deal with fast marine drops? (8min)
The first time i tried your strat i got dropped really fast (2 full medivacs) and lost a ton of lings because he got in a real good spot between my minerals in my main.
just like with any zerg strategy, you have to see the drop coming and have your units positioned so that he can't unload, and bring your queens to shoot the medivacs so he can't just hang around as long as he wants.
hey, what I (master zerg) like to do when I go for very zergling heavy styles is: -) start the game with roaches... Really scare them from going hellions (15hatch 14pool --> first 150gas in 6roaches and attack, then zergling speed and drones) -) keep on adding in some roaches as your defensive core army, because as the guide says, you kind of throw away zerglings in counter attacks and to trade some units off... guess which unit does brutally well in low to medium supply battles
Great cast KangaRuthless ! Damn i love your VOD. I think i will have internet for now on, using hotspots, but i still need some time to practice as i didn't play for a while ^^. I keep you guys in touch.
Just wanted to post to say this is very similar to a build I stole from Psy (favouring Brood Lords) when I was in Bronze league during season one and it did me well, but seeing it performed with a strong focus getting up an army to stop the pushes that were killing me instead of just building an economy and hoping I could react in time seems very intuitive. So first I wanted to thank you aXa. Also KangaRuthless, thanks for casting the replays it really helped.
Hey guys, i am trying out this build again since everything else i do vs terrans is failing miserably. Can anyone here point out what i am doing wrong in this replay (We are both mid-high masters).
I know i misclicked the ranged attack instead of the melee one in this game but was that my downfall?
I've been trying massing Lings like Stephano and it works wonders. Basically, you live on two gases and upgrade your Zerglings very early. Always have a macro hatch so you can spend that extra mineral income you got. Zerglings in mass destroy any marine/siege tank push because they are not ready used to this style most of the times and are caught in the middle, surrounded by so many Zerglings. Stay on top with creep spread because it helps a lot.
Hellions are no problem. Blue flame hellion also get crushed on creep. They simple cannot kill all your Zerglings before you have surrounded them and killed them. If he is going really heavy hellion, get roaches but keep having zerglings in your army.
I have been playing maybe 20 games against terran and have only lost 1 game. That was because I got reaper bunker rushed and my natural hatchery went down to around 50 hp. He then some minutes later got it and it was hard getting back after that.
On October 02 2011 08:06 Skygrinder wrote: Hey guys, i am trying out this build again since everything else i do vs terrans is failing miserably. Can anyone here point out what i am doing wrong in this replay (We are both mid-high masters).
I know i misclicked the ranged attack instead of the melee one in this game but was that my downfall?
I hate to say this, but I think the problem is just smoothing out the build in the early game. I noticed a couple of little bumps that led to your drone count and ling count being lower than it should have been.
18/18 overlord - this felt late. It might not be a problem because of how tight money is, but it delayed a few drones and delayed your queen at the natural. at 26/28 you built two overlords, setting your supply max to 28/44 when minerals are very tight (and then you couldn't use the supply space anyway because you didn't have the money) Built the macro hatch a bit too early, you had 5 larva in the main and couldn't use them because you spent the money on the hatch. basically all of those contribute to you having fewer drones than you should, which means you still needed to continue droning when it was ling making time. these are boring things, but I guess working on these little details is the nature of trying a new build.
I think the biggest problem was the macro hatch just a bit too early. I think getting it before about 6:30 will probably cut too many drones. I like to get the 3rd queen out first so she can do some creeping or deal with hellions.
play around with it and see when you hit 300 minerals with all larva spent.
+1 melee attack would definitely help also, I recommend flanking. he was able to get his back up against a wall, and additionally you tried to run past him to surround before attacking. watching the replay carefully, you lost 15 lings while you were running past his army before you started attacking. If you're coming from two sides you don't need to worry about that and your lings perform much better. I always keep my lings in two control groups for this. Alternately, engage immediately with half and run past with the other half. When you have a huge surplus of lings you don't need to worry about that detail, but when you're at even supply and even upgrades against stimmed bio, every edge counts.
I think you were close to holding that, but your drone count was always lagging, and polishing the early game will help that for sure.
On September 23 2011 21:10 Big J wrote: hey, what I (master zerg) like to do when I go for very zergling heavy styles is: -) start the game with roaches... Really scare them from going hellions (15hatch 14pool --> first 150gas in 6roaches and attack, then zergling speed and drones) -) keep on adding in some roaches as your defensive core army, because as the guide says, you kind of throw away zerglings in counter attacks and to trade some units off... guess which unit does brutally well in low to medium supply battles
yeah i've been trying this as well but I never had the ball not to get zergling speed. But I think you are right. 6 roaches is a LOT better early game than zerglings. I should try it.
Most Terrans open with some hellion harass and get map control. I feel like at this point you should just drone and have like 1 spine crawler to defend. with some zerglings. They then transition into some marine/tank play. If they continue with hellions, you get some roaches to supplement your lings. Make sure you get nice surrounds when you engage their army.
On October 03 2011 01:18 aXa wrote: YOu meant 20:30 ? ^^
lol military time
Anyways, thanks to all the viewers who came by for the livestream. More apologies for all the stream troubles, from black screens to massive lag. I will upload the VODs shortly, so be on the look out!
This mass only 3/3 ling style is ridiculously good, if not the strongest ZvT style I would say. I think every good Zerg i've played lately has done this into ultras, because by making 500000 zerglings you get free map control for the entire game, you cannot be dropped/harrassed if your multi-task is good enough you just send lings to each drop and clean it up.
Then you basically mass whatever unit you want along with 100 zerglings. Be it infestor, or ultra, or all muta...you basically can just pick a unit out of a hat and pair it with mass 3/3 lings and it works crazy good because you can take expansions much more easily with this style.
So tough to deal with @_@ i think the counter is mech, but if you open up any variation of bio...you're sorta screwed lol.
This is an amazing guide, just spent about an hour reading this and watching the IPL, this makes me understand why alot of players aren't getting banelings as early (if at all) anymore in zvt. Thanks for taking the time to write all this! ^^
Just watched it all, you did a great job ! As your biggest fan, i will suggest you to work your minimap awareness. Anyway, i hope you'll recover soon Gz !
Terrific thread. I have been playing a style like this versus terran for a while--mass lings, rush to T3 and ultras. I play it partly because it works and partly because I hate the zerg midgame versus terran. My win % versus Terran is near 70% these days.
I have two minor thoughts about what you've advised.
First, while it's true Ultras are more mobile than broodlords, broodlords have their own advantages and benefit from the same upgrades. Broodlings screw with the AI targeting of the marine ball and help cover you with a map that has chokes. It's a plus if they provoke lots of vikings (much like it's a plus for protoss if z makes too many corruptors). So I often mix in few in the initial 200/200 army. But I tend not to reinforce with them.
Second, I would (and do) mix some banelings into the equation. Terran has an easy micro response to the baneling ball. However, a mix of cracklings, banelings and ultras puts Terran in a micro pickle. If he runs the marines back, it's free reign on the tanks. If he doesn't he loses the marines quickly anyway to the combo of ultra and baneling splash. Plus banes and ultras have the same speed on creep so there's an additional synergy there.
Wow, thanks for the random guy who linked to this thread. I'm also a disgruntled Zerg who dislikes just sitting in his base waiting to get killed.
One thing bugs me though.. don't sensor towers basically hard counter the entire "lings holding the middle map" principle? Or are they just a possible nuisance and nothing to get excited about.
On October 14 2011 22:04 aXa wrote: Seing the zergling is not dealing with them.
I understand that. But I'm still uncomfortable with the idea that T knows about my little patch of lings long away from home. Then again, I guess my mobility keeps me safe.
Definitely gonna try this, though. I was never a fan of gas-intensive delayed production unit as counter to a mineral dump unit, dump vs dump sounds much more attractive...
On October 14 2011 02:54 aXa wrote: Just watched it all, you did a great job ! As your biggest fan, i will suggest you to work your minimap awareness. Anyway, i hope you'll recover soon Gz !
Thanks for the wishes!
I really do need to work on minimap awareness, whether casting or playing. This is why I get wrecked by Drop play so much :S
Disclaimer: I'm still a scrub in this game (low Plat), so please don't give me flak if my question is stupid.
Anyways, I'm growing a bit fond of this banelingless strategy, but the exact BO is giving me trouble, particularly the 28/28 bit. I just don't have nowhere enough mins for speed, 2 crawlers, 2 evos, 5 sets of lings AND a 6:00 macro hatch+2 queens.
I know that as Zerg I shouldn't be sticking to BOs too closely but this discrepancy between my minerals and stuff I need to build seems just a bit too large. And sadly enough all the replays swerve from this BO at 16/26 mark so it's hard to see in action what I'm doing wrong.
So yeah.. any nudge in the right direction greatly appreciated.
On October 18 2011 21:22 baba44713 wrote: Disclaimer: I'm still a scrub in this game (low Plat), so please don't give me flak if my question is stupid.
Anyways, I'm growing a bit fond of this banelingless strategy, but the exact BO is giving me trouble, particularly the 28/28 bit. I just don't have nowhere enough mins for speed, 2 crawlers, 2 evos, 5 sets of lings AND a 6:00 macro hatch+2 queens.
I know that as Zerg I shouldn't be sticking to BOs too closely but this discrepancy between my minerals and stuff I need to build seems just a bit too large. And sadly enough all the replays swerve from this BO at 16/26 mark so it's hard to see in action what I'm doing wrong.
So yeah.. any nudge in the right direction greatly appreciated.
The build order should really be refined, I posted something similar some pages ago. Even if you have the minerals for all that, it leaves you with 3 hatches, 4 queens, but very few drones mining minerals. So you can't even use the larvae for mass speedling or droning up.
I think you should get one spine and one evo at 28/28. Delaying all the other stuff a bit.
I actually don't get two spines anymore but straight up 4 queen. What you have to understand, you are not supposed to have enough minerals to do it all at once. Just do it when you can afford it. Gonna post a replay where it is clear.
I kinda like one spine+evo, feels comfy and secure, so that was how I was doing it. However with 2 drones one extractor my biggest problem was getting rid of excess gas, especially with no second evo to dump it for +1 armor. In any case, I was messing it up big time after 28/28, so a replay which would streamline this for me would be a godsend.
aXa, do you have a more refined version of the build or a replay that could showcase it? I would like to contribute to Liquipedia, but according to what I have tested/read the build is not refined enough to do so (The 28 food part as stated above ).
On October 18 2011 21:41 aXa wrote: I actually don't get two spines anymore but straight up 4 queen. What you have to understand, you are not supposed to have enough minerals to do it all at once. Just do it when you can afford it. Gonna post a replay where it is clear.
I also like this build very much as it suits my play style however, the one problem I find is once a decent number of medivacs are out you need banes or infestors fast!. I notice in aXa games he goes infestors but since the nurf I find this troublesome at times as they are so freaking slow! so i've been working a bit of banelings in.
I even had a game where my lings where 3-3 cracklings to his 1-1 marines with 5-8 medivacs and his marine balls would JUST NOT DIE with infestors The medivac's where healing as fast as FG was producing damage. Any thoughts on how to get around this ? as I'd like to avoid banes if possible
I've been playing around with the build a bit, and have come up with the following (not yet tested in multiplayer much, so if anyone else could help out with that, would be nice):
9 ovie 13 scout (build assumes you lose the scout, so if you don't, you'll be a bit ahead) 15 hatch 16 pool 18 gas (mine to 100, then pull drones) 17 ovie 18 2x queens, 2 sets of lings. Both queens use first energy for a creep tumor. 26-28: depending on how you transfered drones and a few other things, you'll be around 26-28 when you get 100 gas. Start ling speed as soon as you can afford it 28: spine crawler 27: spine crawler 26: overlord 26: put drones back in gas 26: lings to help vs hellions (due to the later pool & gas, you hit this point earlier than in axa's build) After you've got 5 sets of lings up, or while waiting for the ovie to pop, build an evo keep droning, work on saturating your mineral fields a bit. I found that I had enough larvae to not need the macro hatch right away. I dropped the macro hatch as ling speed finished, right around 6:40, and dropped a second evo chamber, got another gas.
Get the extra queens, and definitely keep up on injects. You should have a good number of drones by around 7:30, and able to start pumping lings. I've only run through this build a few times in solo mode, but found that I liked the drone count a lot better. The downsides are: - slower pool means harder to hold off bunker/2-rax aggression - slower speed means harder to punish early aggression, and harder to hold it off - The macro hatch timing could be earlier if you want, but I find that getting my econ up a bit more before dropping it was better. I'll probably have a better sense after I've played some real games with this though.
Anyway, wanted to throw this out there for others to play with too, while I try testing it in real games.
Only plat :-], which is one reason I want others to try it out too. (My main issue is my macro of course, which I'm working on. I don't tend to have a problem holding off early aggression, and was in diamond in season 2, but then stopped playing as much, and my macro slipped down even worse (wasn't great in diamond either). Anyway--I think that the delay in speed won't get you killed, but I would like to see it in action against hard hellion harass or hard aggression vs. someone who is good. I don't tend to get good opponents. The econ advantage is huge though...
I do tend to get +1/+1 before lair. Always the +1 attack, usually the carapace too, but sometimes I skip it if I want faster infestors/mutas, depending on the situation.
I'll post replays when I get them (unless no one cares since I'm just plat ).
On October 30 2011 08:50 KiinG PurP wrote: Fuck you took my build Ive been doing this since the beginning, it has allowed me to look decent when I really am not that good lol
On October 30 2011 11:03 KiinG PurP wrote: ^now people will start recognizing it and metagame will change, I always have to keep making new strats to beat the meta game.
like my +2 attack roach timing attack in zvz it is what took over, I just never had the ability with the keyboard to make it to GM
if this game used controllers it would be a different story aint complaining just saying
great analysis would you please add in some more detailed content on how to deal with a mass hellion opening?? i found that with mass hellion openings, i can't control the watch towers and i have no way to know whether my opponent is attacking or not.....which makes me unable to build enough lings before the attack hits also if i rush for roaches immediately, i am quite vulnerable against heavy tank compositions such as pure mech or some strange marine tank timings without stim or combat shield
On November 07 2011 00:35 aXa wrote: Here is a replay you might find instructive
[url blocked]
I've watched the replay, it was a nice game shocked me how well roaches work right under the tanks
in your experience, is this burrowed roaches strategy always gonna achieve something(of course it will be too much to hope for it to ends up like this game every time), or if you sometimes needs to be a little bit lucky? it kinda feels like your opponent didn't reacted very well
if you don't think it will always work, can you tell me like what triggers you to do that in that game?(the map, the enemy's openings, the weather......something like that^^)
The goal is to use roach as a mid game unit against mech play. I use them very agressively and sometimes it pay very well as you could see in this game. But ultimately the goal is to prevent a max mech army until you get broodlord. What triggers roach is mass hellion.
Don't know if this have been asked before or not, but: Whats your take on leaving 3 drones on gas so that you can get both the Carapace and attack upgrades at the same time? I've yet to try it out, but i belive delaying the evo chambers a bit would also come hand in hand with this decision.
Yes Im low level (plat) What I meant was, if you somehow would benefit from not pulling your 3 initial drones from gas? Like, a bit faster +1 +1 than if you would do what the initial build suggested? You would also build the evo chambers so that they finishes with you having 250 gas
I've been using this style alot since you posted it here. You always write good guides and also the 9 pool build helped my zvz extremely much. So I thank you for that!
thanks a lot, though i still die a lot in the early game before i can saturate on 2 bases Taiwan/Korean server is full of all in Terrans but this definitely helps a ton I've did this style way before Stephano became famous, but had a lot of trouble recently since mass hellions are getting increasingly popular these days
anyways, one last problem how should i deal with a meching player throwing planetary fortresses all over the place on a map like Taldarim? i find it almost impossible to stop as roaches are so immobile but lings get murdered be mass hellion once the planetary is up it is so difficult and cost ineffective to kill
You should have ultra before mass planetary occur.
Usually 4 queens and reactionnary lings are enough to hold all in, it is quite a safe build. If you want to see how i hold all in, look at my bo5 against ragequitTMO
On November 09 2011 19:29 aXa wrote: You should have ultra before mass planetary occur.
Usually 4 queens and reactionnary lings are enough to hold all in, it is quite a safe build. If you want to see how i hold all in, look at my bo5 against ragequitTMO
but you didn't hold off all in with queens and lings..... you tried in game 1 and failed you succeeded in game 5 with a baneling nest these kinds of mass marine all in seems unstoppable without banelings it will be even more deadly if he didn't do go for banshees but pump out six hellions
would you have held off the all in in game 5 if he had not did the exact build to you in game 1? how do you know when to put down a baneling nest or should I just do it every game just in case??
My personal twist on this now is to start ventral sacs as soon as I can after I start my 2/2 and infestation pit, and pneumatized carapace shortly after that.
If my opponent is playing aggressively, I can flank him and crush him with the superior defensive capabilities of ling infestor. If he drops aggressively, I keep lings in multiple control groups, in multiple locations, and fend him off without trouble.
If my opponent is playing defensively, I drop half my army in his base (a lot of lings plus 2-3 infestors, and usually a queen for manner creep) while the other half is sharking around the map waiting for an opportunity to pounce and kill stuff. The lings just kill tons of stuff in his base (you can focus down priority targets) and use your infestors to either fungal his SCVs, or fungal his units as they come up the ramp, or throw down a ton of infested terrans (I prefer fungals though). You can usually rescue the queen and infestors no problem while the lings keep things busy.
It works exceptionally well; even if they handle the drop just fine, my main army tends to do massive damage at their front. Usually they take heavy damage in both locations. After that, drops is just so useful all game long, you can do infestor drops, or you can just shuttle lings into his base every few minutes to pick off add-ons and depots. mutalisks that don't cost gas!
Most terrans will build turrets, but if you don't show muta, they won't have very many. Maybe 1 in the mineral line, and 1 in their production, so it is very easy to drop on that, no problem. After they clean up the drop, they may try to turret themselves up even more, but they have to wait for your creep to recede, so a lot of them get distracted and forget. Lead with empty overlords if there are a lot of turrets. If they use sensor towers I do fake drops to put their army out of position.
Afterwards, I use drops for easy ling runbys on otherwise inaccessible expansions, queen drops for creep spread and expansion blocking, infestor drops, drone transfers, and sometimes even ultralisk drops.
I made a fun video compiling clips from a bunch of my recent replays to demonstrate how devastating this can be.
I'm in low masters league, and honestly this strategy makes ZvT feel easy. I do basically the same thing in ZvP as well. Right now, many of my opponents do not multitask well enough to keep up with a two-pronged attack.
i just switched to zerg and started using this style, and i love it!
one question though: how do you deal with turtle terrans? i'll start making a billion lings but they'll just siege at their nat and expand and slowly take the map with siege/good marine placement
Hello guys, sorry for being away for such a long time, i don't really have the time to play anymore ! Anyway, Seiferz, i think Oboeman just answered your question: Against turtling terran, nothing better than zergling drop in the mid and late game
Thank you Oboeman by the way for the great add to this topic.
On November 16 2011 06:52 Oboeman wrote: My personal twist on this now is to start ventral sacs as soon as I can after I start my 2/2 and infestation pit, and pneumatized carapace shortly after that.
If my opponent is playing aggressively, I can flank him and crush him with the superior defensive capabilities of ling infestor. If he drops aggressively, I keep lings in multiple control groups, in multiple locations, and fend him off without trouble.
If my opponent is playing defensively, I drop half my army in his base (a lot of lings plus 2-3 infestors, and usually a queen for manner creep) while the other half is sharking around the map waiting for an opportunity to pounce and kill stuff. The lings just kill tons of stuff in his base (you can focus down priority targets) and use your infestors to either fungal his SCVs, or fungal his units as they come up the ramp, or throw down a ton of infested terrans (I prefer fungals though). You can usually rescue the queen and infestors no problem while the lings keep things busy.
It works exceptionally well; even if they handle the drop just fine, my main army tends to do massive damage at their front. Usually they take heavy damage in both locations. After that, drops is just so useful all game long, you can do infestor drops, or you can just shuttle lings into his base every few minutes to pick off add-ons and depots. mutalisks that don't cost gas!
Most terrans will build turrets, but if you don't show muta, they won't have very many. Maybe 1 in the mineral line, and 1 in their production, so it is very easy to drop on that, no problem. After they clean up the drop, they may try to turret themselves up even more, but they have to wait for your creep to recede, so a lot of them get distracted and forget. Lead with empty overlords if there are a lot of turrets. If they use sensor towers I do fake drops to put their army out of position.
Afterwards, I use drops for easy ling runbys on otherwise inaccessible expansions, queen drops for creep spread and expansion blocking, infestor drops, drone transfers, and sometimes even ultralisk drops.
I'm in low masters league, and honestly this strategy makes ZvT feel easy. I do basically the same thing in ZvP as well. Right now, many of my opponents do not multitask well enough to keep up with a two-pronged attack.
That looks awesome, I think you should put together a mini guide on this. I think it catches terrans and Toss so off guard because they never expect drops.
On November 16 2011 06:52 Oboeman wrote: My personal twist on this now is to start ventral sacs as soon as I can after I start my 2/2 and infestation pit, and pneumatized carapace shortly after that.
If my opponent is playing aggressively, I can flank him and crush him with the superior defensive capabilities of ling infestor. If he drops aggressively, I keep lings in multiple control groups, in multiple locations, and fend him off without trouble.
If my opponent is playing defensively, I drop half my army in his base (a lot of lings plus 2-3 infestors, and usually a queen for manner creep) while the other half is sharking around the map waiting for an opportunity to pounce and kill stuff. The lings just kill tons of stuff in his base (you can focus down priority targets) and use your infestors to either fungal his SCVs, or fungal his units as they come up the ramp, or throw down a ton of infested terrans (I prefer fungals though). You can usually rescue the queen and infestors no problem while the lings keep things busy.
It works exceptionally well; even if they handle the drop just fine, my main army tends to do massive damage at their front. Usually they take heavy damage in both locations. After that, drops is just so useful all game long, you can do infestor drops, or you can just shuttle lings into his base every few minutes to pick off add-ons and depots. mutalisks that don't cost gas!
Most terrans will build turrets, but if you don't show muta, they won't have very many. Maybe 1 in the mineral line, and 1 in their production, so it is very easy to drop on that, no problem. After they clean up the drop, they may try to turret themselves up even more, but they have to wait for your creep to recede, so a lot of them get distracted and forget. Lead with empty overlords if there are a lot of turrets. If they use sensor towers I do fake drops to put their army out of position.
Afterwards, I use drops for easy ling runbys on otherwise inaccessible expansions, queen drops for creep spread and expansion blocking, infestor drops, drone transfers, and sometimes even ultralisk drops.
I'm in low masters league, and honestly this strategy makes ZvT feel easy. I do basically the same thing in ZvP as well. Right now, many of my opponents do not multitask well enough to keep up with a two-pronged attack.
Gonna try that style but the investment seems quite large in early stages and leaveds you vulnerable to drops non the less i see that it works
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SNXC5.png)
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) Maybe you thought that broods were better at it than ultras. It is only a half-truth. With ultralisks, you'll have the possibility to choose where to break terran, as for broodlords, you'll have to go for the nearest expand because they are incredibly slow.
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