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Hey all.
I just played this most perplexing TvZ, in which a zerg demolished me with only lings and a couple of blings. I really am speechless.
I followed my usual strategy which wins me 80-90% of TvZ. I was a little late with my reactor on my rax so the hellions came out fractionally later than usual, but it's no big deal usually. I doubt it really would have helped at all in this case anyway.
Now I get that in most of the engagements my tanks weren't seiged, but still. It's only lings! I've been surrounded by lings before and still rolled. This however was something else!
I've watched the replay and besides, maybe doing some drop play, I don't see how I could have turned this game around. I'm also aware that he was ahead in ups, but I had higher tech.
Any suggestions?
Here is the replay
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13393
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you could have made some helions and wiped him completely. all you gotta do is scout man.
starcraft is all about knowledge. if youre playing blind and you dont see 400 zerglings then youre going to lose. if you see him massing lings. make BFH and just melt his sorry ass
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Prior to the last 2 minutes of the game, you still could have won.
In that first marine/tank push, you got a favorable trade. However, after you lost all your marines, you should have pulled those three tanks back to your base. Without marines to DPS, tanks fall very easily to small numbers of zerglings. You then made a few control mistakes and lost some reinforcing marines and tanks. Not a big deal, you were still ahead. Unfortunately the loss of those tanks meant that when he counter attacked, you didn't have any tanks to stop his lings from counterattacking. However you still managed to hold with minimal damage, and were in a decent position due to your macro being stronger than your opponents.
Your first major error was expanding to the bottom right without first checking that the rocks were in place. Most decent zergs will clear those out pretty early, as it's very obviously the favored third for a terran to take.
Even after he over-ran that base, you lost no siege tanks defending, and all his lings were pummeled into the ground. You still had SEVEN siege tanks. That's more than enough to keep turtling, wall off the entrance to your third, and be in a decent position.
Instead, you pull most of your tanks and marines and a+move across the map, with your siege tanks leading and without scanning ahead. He kills half your tank count before your marines even catch up. At that point, a couple of blings is all it takes to decimate your COMPLETELY UN-UPGRADED marines.
It's also worth noting that he powered his upgrades to 3-3 and adrenal glands. For most of those big engagements he was on 2-2 compared to your 0-0 without Stim or combat shields.
When you go marine/tank, YOUR TANK COUNT IS EVERYTHING. Marines are 100% disposable. They are incredibly cheap and quick to make and reinforce, but your tank count is what you should slowly be growing all game.
Also, getting constantly caught un-sieged is massive. You really need to learn to (get stim) and stim a marine to run ahead, or at least scan ahead when you move across the map.
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Not getting upgrades was pretty major. In the first tank push he had +1 attack and +1 carapace on the way while you had none (other than siege mode, which you didn't use initially).
At 20 minutes into the game, he had +3/+3 and adrenal glands on the way, while you had +1 armor, no combat shield, no stim and no medivacs. Your army was just way too inefficient at that level of upgrades to keep up.
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MTH or just Hellion would be fine, not a terran player but judging on pro games there's alot of counters if microed correctly obviously not having tanks sieged is a massive mistake and being so far behind on upgrades is huge.
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First of all, I applaud you for being well mannered
Now on to actual analysis:
With ur very beginning pressure, you saw a great deal of lings and 2 evos, this is a pretty big tip off of ling with heavy upgrade and either muta or infestor (which i guess never came)
Almost immediately you should cancel all plans of 3 tank push n such because +1/0 (or in his case 1/1 lings almost exclusively crush 3 tank pushes (usually with the aid of the macro hatch which he didnt have but is fairly well to assume that, so u should just fall back n upgrade, safely expand with turrets n stuff. Id say use ur scans a bit more liberally to get reads on what he is planning cause if im not mistaken u didnt scan til about 3/4 of the game in to get a hive timing.
Thats it for strategy i guess
For execution, once u reach 6-7 tanks, you are at the number where the timing is less important than the position. So when u have the larger number of tanks, take ur time leap frogging them forward, getting a bunch of tanks into a position fast isnt nearly as important as say early 3 tank pushes where ur trying to do damage before they have their economy in place. So there was the pretty big blunder of losing a bunch of tanks to lings simply cause they were unseiged.
So in summary, slow down u pushes a lil bit, more upgrades (especially when u see dual evo + lotsa lings)
And yes, pure ling with a sprinkling of banes to save gas for mutas/ infestors is really strong and as a zerg, i think more zergs should do it too forgoing mass banelings
GL
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I think that another element of what happened here was panic. You went up against something weird, and didn't quite know how to react. If you were playing a regular game, and I told you beforehand that I was going mass zergling, what would you do? Probably mass hellions. If you find yourself in a game seeing something different, force yourself to stop for 10 seconds and think what is the best thing I can do to counter this strategy.
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On September 23 2011 03:21 saltessio wrote:
I think that another element of what happened here was panic. You went up against something weird, and didn't quite know how to react. If you were playing a regular game, and I told you beforehand that I was going mass zergling, what would you do? Probably mass hellions. If you find yourself in a game seeing something different, force yourself to stop for 10 seconds and think what is the best thing I can do to counter this strategy.
i don't think it's weird at all, it's probably the best counter to the 3 tank push.
i've had the same problem as you, and i haven't really found a solution but i think just holding the push off and expanding is the best decision, and hit another timing. basically the zerg will see you expand and go for an all-in or go for another expo of their own. You obviously react to whatever situation occurs but eventually, if you macro super good, you'll be able to run over the zerg army.
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you mentioned at the end of the game "why dont all zergs do this?"
for the record: I do this. except a better version of this, I also add infestors and ultralisks when the time is right, thats right, ultralisks, 2/2 zerglings is what you faced in that game. imagine 3/3 cracklings. and 5/3 ultralisks. and infestors (which allow the ultras to become unkitable)
its a slaughter.
the reasons why it works are the following:
ultralisks share upgrades with zerglings.
the total efficiency of a single zergling that have 3 attack upgrades and adrenal glands (aka maxed except armor upgrades) is: base: 5, bonus: +1 (+20% efficiency) +1 (+20% efficency) +1 (20% efficiency) + 20%efficiency on the total of the previous (adrenal glands)
(1 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2) * 1.2 = 1.92 in other words, zerglings become 92% more efficient than standard speedlings by fully upgrading their damage potential.
infestors have no hardcounter except ghosts, and hellion/maruader/ghost (which is the hard-counter to my build) is not very commonly used. notice that hellion/maruader get crushed, the ghosts are necessary.
the reason why it doesnt work is the following:
when doing this build you lose to hellions period (until you get infestors). this is why I get roaches the instant I see hellions.
the reason why you lost that game however, is neither of the above but simply because he got way ahead of you in econ. you lost this game because of econ
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I didn't watch the replay, but I would say marine tank vs zergling with equal ups would end up marine/tank winning, but if all u have is tech to ur advantage and ur down in ups, then u need a hard counter to lings- Helions! preferably with Blue flame. I f he has NO mutalisks just go helion/tank. beats everrrrything on the ground.
User was warned for this post
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To be compeltely honest, after watching your game, the reason of your lose is actually just your upgrades and passively play style against a zerg. Drops couldve done wonders!
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I am a zerg who plays with this mass ling style, so maybe I can offer some perspective.
if he had made his macro hatch at the 6 minute mark (~40 supply) when his minerals started floating instead of at the 9 minute mark, he could have had 50 drones and up to 70-80 lings when you first pushed, and you would have been absolutely destroyed if he flanked you. (this guy was on one control group the whole time, so he was not maximizing the usefulness of his lings).
I play with a fast macro hatch, double upgrades, mass lings, hit lair for 6 infestors then go straight to hive. I use burrow for blocking expos and overlord drops to harass with zerglings to make up for lack of mutalisks.
Aggressive terrans are the easiest for me to defeat. passive ones are difficult.
The hardest terrans in the world are the ones who never push (but always threaten - come to my creep and go home, so I can't be greedy) and always expand. they'll be expanding like MVP and never throwing away units so that they can actually defend all their expansions. Drops can be great because I have minimal anti-air, but I use multiple control groups and static defense so I can defend multiple spots at the same time as long as I see it coming.
which leads to my next point. Against a mutalisk player, a viking is a mere annoyance. It opens a tempoary corridor for dropping and wastes a little bit of money. Against a ling/infestor player, a viking can be really frustrating. Make a single viking (or two) and clear out overlords allowing you to drop and do damage.
If you can judge how many control groups your opponent is using based on his army movement, drop in at least one more location than he has control groups. I usually have 2 groups of lings, so a double drop doesn't tax me at all, but triple drops require extra attention, or multiple drops plus a push.
the 10 minute marine tank push loses horribly to mass zergling, especially if the ling upgrades have finished, but even without. 3 tanks + 20 marines gets destroyed by 50-60 lings especially with a flank. The guy in this game handled it very poorly (fewer lings than he should, and no flank) so believe it or not, you got lucky.
zerglings lose their effectiveness when:
- Terran matches or exceeds upgrades
- critical mass of siege tanks (and +1 vehicle weapons)
- critical mass of marine/medivac
- blueflames.
- chokepoint.
I feel that 1/1 lings can trade quite well with 0/0 marines. With even upgrades it's generally terran favoured, but depends on the surface area. When terran has an upgrade lead, the lings die like nothing.
3-5 tanks isn't too scary. Lings are fast so you get one volley before the lings are in your face. Once the battle is in full swing, the tanks are hurting both sides, and tanks die very quickly to lings. 5 tank shots without +1mech wil probably kill less than 10 lings, and hurt a bunch more. With a good flank and spread, the zergling count is basically untouched.
With +1 mech and more than ~7 tanks, you start getting to the point where everything on the ground just disappears.
Also, mass medivac makes it really hard for zerglings to break through a clump of marines.
Looking at those points, you should say - but I have to put pressure on the zerg. If I am going double upgrades, or wait for 7 tanks, or wait for 4 medivacs, the zerg will be on 4 bases and 100 drones already!
yeah. so you need to be aggressively expanding behind fake pressure to keep up with him. staying on 2 base won't get you enough gas for the tank count/medivac count/upgrades you need.
good luck, and I hope more zergs try this style out because it is really good 
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
have you ever beat a zerg with just marines (and medivacs). if you are ahead in UPs, that is a big deal for massable units. And just like if a zerg wastes all their mutas fighting mutas, so can a terran waste all his tanks fighting unsieged, and that is what happened to you. Obviously there were mistakes by both of you that largely contributed to this result. Had your marine stutter step been better you could have won a few of those engages I think, and those could have shifted the game. Medivac harass without mutas is huge. But yeah, Tanks arent good or worth the investment if theyre unsieged during those critical battles :D
I know it doesnt feel good or like he did anything very special.
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Always a pleasure to analyze a replay, Qibla!
Platinum Zerg here, and I watched the replay, and here are my thoughts.
First, upgrades upgrades upgrades. The real reason he won was the ling vs marine upgrade wars swung in his favor. And not just melee/carapace vs your infantry weapons/armor, you had no stim or combat shields, or medivacs, just basic rines and seigemode tanks (The hellions I don't feel were a pro/con, kind of neutral in this game, did some damage, forced lings to be made rather than drones, etc. though to say you needed more and with blueflame, I say, maaaaybe? Though I think rine/tanks is still viable.)
Also, watch your rallies, after the battle at his nat from your first push was lost, you still were reinforcing it, rather than cutting your losses and moving back, so he got several rine kills and a tank kill, and ultimately map control at the center, while whittling down your back rocks.
I would say dont forget upgrades, first and foremost, if you had matching +/+ and combat shields and stim, this game would have been much different, because lings DO melt to rines, but only if evenly upgraded and relatively similar numbers, food count-wise. Furthermore, as rine count goes up, the rines vs zergling battles swing in the rines favor, as you can clump up, reducing the volume:circumference ratio, although banes prefer clumping, as is the balance that exists, though he had severely delayed bane tech, perhaps due to your delayed stim/shields tech, favoring the basic +/+ ups to keep the lead. Sure, he was also going infestors/mutas/ultra, though they never really appeared on the field, but if you're going biomech, keep up on the upgrades, get shields and stim, and some medivacs. I think your engagements were fine, but the micro isn't where the game was lost, its the ups, and personally, I think of medivacs as another "up" for rines as well.
As to why more zerg don't do this? Well, we aren't always up on upgrades, and our lings do melt to robustly maintained and up'd marines, favoring more blings and infestors while muta harrassing to slow you down, but if we do get the edge in our favor, more Zerg players should gravitate towards a more ling heavy build, such as he did.
Thanks for posting though, it was nice to analyze and theorycraft. GL man!
~Duncan Idaho
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Hey guys, this style has been theorized by myself a couple weeks ago. If you want the zerg insight, please make sure to check my thread "aXa's ZvT: Let's start the agression"
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I was watching Stephano play a mass ling into mass "X" gas heavy unit a few days ago, and it was ridiculously effective. He had 3 bases, and 3 macro hatches, and would have upwards of 50-60 lings building at any point in time. He just ran them in circles around the map, annoying everything, and effectively preventing the T from making any pokes or doing any harassment. When he finally hit hive tech, and the T had finally decided on mass hellion, he build 18 mutas and just flat out killed him. He also had a ultra den and infestation pit, both of which would have been equally effective.
Another cool aspect of this build. No unit that rapes mass lings shoots air. The only unit which is amazing at anti-air and decent at killing lings is marines, which get slaughtered by infestors.
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(diamond terran here) honestly i think the sole reason you lost this was cause you didn't have your tanks sieged very often (terran can't just lose armys like that, it takes way to long to rebuild) and you didnt research stim the entire game xD
a big ball of marines, some medi's and stim rips speedlings apart, add some (sieged) tanks and you're good to go against this strat xD
i wish zergs went pure speedling against me 
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On September 23 2011 05:17 Oboeman wrote:
I am a zerg who plays with this mass ling style, so maybe I can offer some perspective.
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Aggressive terrans are the easiest for me to defeat. passive ones are difficult.
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This. The most important thing to note about a Zerg going this style is that being aggressive is exactly what they want, since lings do not scale well, and marines/tanks/medivacs do. The worst thing you can do is engage the Zerg frequently with small armies, as Zerglings are most effective when fighting smaller groups which don't have the DPS to kill everything before it gets a chance to attack.
Also, mass ling styles are generally low-drone styles, especially in the early/mid game. If you see the Zerg has a large army, then he has few drones and little tech, so just sit and play passive until your superior econ and tech give you enough of an advantage that you can move out and most likely kill him.
I also play this style frequently against Terrans I think will be aggressive, and it works amazingly well. Against passive players, who build up large armies and move out, it pretty much gets owned, especially if you have a TON of medivacs.
Also of great importance is walling-in. Wall-in EVERYTHING you possibly can, as backstabs are also a key part of this style. For example on Xel'Naga, block the entrance to your nat closest to your ramp with rax's, block the backdoor with an ebay-or depots, and if you can block the entrance to your third with Rax's like Protoss frequently do.
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On September 23 2011 04:18 Roblin wrote:
you mentioned at the end of the game "why dont all zergs do this?"
for the record: I do this. except a better version of this, I also add infestors and ultralisks when the time is right, thats right, ultralisks, 2/2 zerglings is what you faced in that game. imagine 3/3 cracklings. and 5/3 ultralisks. and infestors (which allow the ultras to become unkitable)
its a slaughter.
the reasons why it works are the following:
ultralisks share upgrades with zerglings.
the total efficiency of a single zergling that have 3 attack upgrades and adrenal glands (aka maxed except armor upgrades) is: base: 5, bonus: +1 (+20% efficiency) +1 (+20% efficency) +1 (20% efficiency) + 20%efficiency on the total of the previous (adrenal glands)
(1 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2) * 1.2 = 1.92 in other words, zerglings become 92% more efficient than standard speedlings by fully upgrading their damage potential.
infestors have no hardcounter except ghosts, and hellion/maruader/ghost (which is the hard-counter to my build) is not very commonly used. notice that hellion/maruader get crushed, the ghosts are necessary.
the reason why it doesnt work is the following:
when doing this build you lose to hellions period (until you get infestors). this is why I get roaches the instant I see hellions.
the reason why you lost that game however, is neither of the above but simply because he got way ahead of you in econ. you lost this game because of econ
Blings with good creep spread actually does fairly well against hellion openers unless the Terran goes mass hellion and just keeps producing them, in which case you get hard countered. I used to play this style as my standard ZvT style a few months ago when the norm was fast expanding or some kind of light hellion opening --> marine / tank transition. Now so many Terrans play mass blue flame hellions the opening is kinda null =/
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hellions tanks and marines should demolish this. with medivacs in large numbers marines absolutely rape lings and so do bf hellions
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EPT
