|
Ermm...I just watched the replay and seeing a terran goes 20 min into the game with no stim, combat shield, and med-vacs breaks my heart. Play better, dude. Mass zerging build is easy to beat with some patience. Quoting from one of the best TvZ guide: On July 07 2011 18:34 The.Doctor wrote:
Mass ling (yeah really)
Used often by ReignPhoeNix AKA kOre. My practice partner, RevWarlockx also does it. I need to play against it more but I've done fine against it against Warlock.
Mass ling isn't that bad actually and stops mid game 3 tank pushes easily. You need to scout that he's doing this. Some hints are, your scouting SCV won't see any gas, your drops or scan won't see any spire or infestation at the 10 minute mark and that he'll PROBABLY have a fast third. Every build transition I wrote is good against this. The higher your marine count, the better your marines scale, so, don't do any small pushes around the map.
Drop and abuse cliffs constantly and use those drops to scout his bases until you see mutas or infestors. You can also take a fast third as he has no potential to kill you with any mass ling timing pushes. He'll have banked a lot of gas so he'll pump a lot of mutas, or infestors, at once. No matter which it is, if you see an infestation or spire, you should be able to do a push before the Z can get the mutas or infestors out to take out any 3rd. If he doesn't have a 3rd base, just take your 3rd (off of 1 factory) and then play out with an economical advantage. Defend his muta harass and then do a push once you've built up your tank count and added a thor. Losing your tank count early sets you far back so try your best, using scans, sacking marines and taking towers to see his army size and army position. Don't go too far on creep and remember, no half-assed pushes.
|
as a zerg player I used this strat from probably platinum league to masters. Just kept upgrading and destroying their pushes, until the terrans realized that all they had to do was build a lot of tanks and then it was gg for me. All the terran needs to do is have a LOT of tanks before they move out and have them positioned accordingly.
|
On September 24 2011 12:33 Ruyguy wrote:
as a zerg player I used this strat from probably platinum league to masters. Just kept upgrading and destroying their pushes, until the terrans realized that all they had to do was build a lot of tanks and then it was gg for me. All the terran needs to do is have a LOT of tanks before they move out and have them positioned accordingly.
ANNNDDDD.... Don't do this blindly, make sure to scout for the things the. doctor said above. Otherwise not enough marines can cause the tanks to die to mutas catching them out of position, but if delayed gas and lair, it may be possible to find a timing window where your tanks are safe for a short while. Another possibility, if you're not sure, make forward turrets ( or bunkers?) to protect the tanks.
|
On September 24 2011 12:33 Ruyguy wrote:
as a zerg player I used this strat from probably platinum league to masters. Just kept upgrading and destroying their pushes, until the terrans realized that all they had to do was build a lot of tanks and then it was gg for me. All the terran needs to do is have a LOT of tanks before they move out and have them positioned accordingly.
Stephano uses it and beats grandmaster Terrans with it
I've seen him go 8+ hatcheries making 200/200 lings and winning
|
The biggest problem was that you were passive against him. In TvZ, if you don't drop, you lose. If you don't harass him enough, he gets three bases ahead, and can replace any force in under sixty seconds. That was the biggest problem itself, but to get that big zergling push beaten, you need aither a lot of tanks, or open ground and a pile of 3/3 BF hellions, with good micro, and off of creep.
|
I play ZvT like that, it demolishes the few tanks + marines push that hits before or at lair push, as some people already said just back out if you see so many lings, and macro, there is no way the zerg will hurt you with lings if you are behind your wall.
Also a lot of zergs who play this style like to follow it with infestors, if they do a viking will clear your side of the map from overlords.
|
Lings are actually crap on their own. quicker medivacs and quick upgrades will help if ur really strguggling
|
Ok, So I just played another one vs this style. I go bfh, then all of a sudden he has like 8 ultras off 2 base raining down pain on me. Hellions don't do very well vs Ultras.
|
I've been wondering about going Bio against this with Hellion and Medivac support.
Tanks will usually get +1 far later than Zerglings get +1 armor and compared to how many tanks you need vs how many lings can kill said tanks, the tank count would need to be a lot higher than three to make a good push and that just takes too much time and allows the Zerg so much.
Instead of starting off with tanks, you start off with Bio, giving you early aggression that can deal with lings and then tech to Tanks a little later and in higher numbers.
|
so he went ultras off 2 base? also were you massing hellions? because u should get marines as well. if he was going 2 base ultra u should demolish it with ur marines
|
On September 26 2011 23:06 Qibla wrote:
Ok, So I just played another one vs this style. I go bfh, then all of a sudden he has like 8 ultras off 2 base raining down pain on me. Hellions don't do very well vs Ultras.
hahaha wtf one does not simply 'all of a sudden' have 8 ultras, needs more scouting / scans my friend.
|
On September 23 2011 04:18 Roblin wrote:
you mentioned at the end of the game "why dont all zergs do this?"
for the record: I do this. except a better version of this, I also add infestors and ultralisks when the time is right, thats right, ultralisks, 2/2 zerglings is what you faced in that game. imagine 3/3 cracklings. and 5/3 ultralisks. and infestors (which allow the ultras to become unkitable)
its a slaughter.
the reasons why it works are the following:
ultralisks share upgrades with zerglings.
the total efficiency of a single zergling that have 3 attack upgrades and adrenal glands (aka maxed except armor upgrades) is: base: 5, bonus: +1 (+20% efficiency) +1 (+20% efficency) +1 (20% efficiency) + 20%efficiency on the total of the previous (adrenal glands)
(1 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2) * 1.2 = 1.92 in other words, zerglings become 92% more efficient than standard speedlings by fully upgrading their damage potential.
infestors have no hardcounter except ghosts, and hellion/maruader/ghost (which is the hard-counter to my build) is not very commonly used. notice that hellion/maruader get crushed, the ghosts are necessary.
the reason why it doesnt work is the following:
when doing this build you lose to hellions period (until you get infestors). this is why I get roaches the instant I see hellions.
the reason why you lost that game however, is neither of the above but simply because he got way ahead of you in econ. you lost this game because of econ
Starting at the second upgrade, you go from 6 to 7, which is less than 20%
|
I use the reactor hellion expand too, and what I've experienced to beat this style is to not do the usual 10 minute marine/tank push, because mass lings off 2 bases when he hasn't taken a 3rd yet will just crush your push and usually lose you the game. Instead, as many people have been saying, you should take a fast third, get dropships, and harras the hell out of your opponent, because they are not gonna have mutas or infestors anytime soon.
Lings, while amazing at defending pushes, suck on the offensive. Must likely, your opponent will have double evo chambers, so you MUST get at least 1 engy bay to upgrade your marines. Eventually, at around the 14 minute mark, you should make a big push. Hopefully, your dropping will have hurt your enemy's economy, coupled with you taking a faster third.
At around this time, if zerg still hasn't gotten anything other than zerglings or mutalisks, then go MASS marines, because marines own both zerglings and mutalisks, and just keep on attacking until you win. Kinda like the game on shakurus between marineking and kyrix in GSL 3, just rally marines until you win.
Here's a replay to show you what you should try to do against mass zerglings. In the replay, I'm also playing against Satiini, so I'm not playing some noob. (Yes, I'm bragging, but I just have to show this game to someone). 
http://drop.sc/38154
|
Anyone who have watched Stephano play ZvT recently can testify that mass ling with super fast upgrades, and then transition into infestor/ultra while mineral dumping into more lings with a few macro hatches is an absolutely insane unit composition to deal with. It's extremely mobile, transitions well and is super cost-efficient. It really is a hard thing to be up against in the hands of a skilled player.
|
On September 23 2011 02:26 zylog wrote:
At 20 minutes into the game, he had +3/+3 and adrenal glands on the way, while you had +1 armor, no combat shield, no stim and no medivacs. Your army was just way too inefficient at that level of upgrades to keep up.
This was kinda funny to read :D.
--
It's freaking mind-blowing how important and what difference make upgrades in StarCraft. Especially for zerg.
|
I think in your case the problem is that you usually win in one push, and you didn't really have a follow up. You fell behing in upgrades, lost all your SCVs because you weren't defending at all, and didn't research stim which allowed the banelings to destroy all your marines at the end.
But yes, zerglings are pretty good! And this guy's build wasn't even especially well done, if you lost to that I imagine you would've had a really hard time against this style. I do something similar, and I really think this build will get more popular in the future because it's very powerful.
|
This is stephano's style. i played just a bit around with it, and i can say with confidence that good drop harass with marines/hellions can destroy this build.
When z is not getting mutas, I'd feel free to just pick him apart with 3-4 drops at a time, while i keep teching/upgrading/expanding/securing my expansions.....
P.S be ready for infestor/ultra switch with ghosts/tanks/marines etc...
|
when playing this style as Z, you definitely need to put spines and spores in your bases exposed to drops. Something like 1 spore and three spines. As you generally have a lot of mineral, this is not too difficult, and it will shut down any drop harass.
|
Have to be sieged, end of story, don't over think it
|
On September 27 2011 16:22 Gotmog wrote:
This is stephano's style. i played just a bit around with it, and i can say with confidence that good drop harass with marines/hellions can destroy this build.
When z is not getting mutas, I'd feel free to just pick him apart with 3-4 drops at a time, while i keep teching/upgrading/expanding/securing my expansions.....
P.S be ready for infestor/ultra switch with ghosts/tanks/marines etc...
You can most definitely transition into mutas when doing this style... Actually the whole point of this build is that it frees up a ton of gas for the mid game. Of course no one told you to stay with zerglings the whole game, and as others have pointed out upgraded marines with medivacs will crush them, among other things.
Massing zerglings with 1/1 and a macro hatch makes you incredibly safe early, allows you to deny a third (actually you can poke his natural, and very often you'll just kill greedy terrans right there), and allows you to drone up at a ridiculously fast pace if you so chose.
I honestly don't see any weakness to this kind of play, to me it's the most solid way to play ZvT.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
