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On September 27 2011 18:44 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 16:22 Gotmog wrote:
This is stephano's style. i played just a bit around with it, and i can say with confidence that good drop harass with marines/hellions can destroy this build.
When z is not getting mutas, I'd feel free to just pick him apart with 3-4 drops at a time, while i keep teching/upgrading/expanding/securing my expansions.....
P.S be ready for infestor/ultra switch with ghosts/tanks/marines etc... You can most definitely transition into mutas when doing this style... Actually the whole point of this build is that it frees up a ton of gas for the mid game. Of course no one told you to stay with zerglings the whole game, and as others have pointed out upgraded marines with medivacs will crush them, among other things. Massing zerglings with 1/1 and a macro hatch makes you incredibly safe early, allows you to deny a third (actually you can poke his natural, and very often you'll just kill greedy terrans right there), and allows you to drone up at a ridiculously fast pace if you so chose. I honestly don't see any weakness to this kind of play, to me it's the most solid way to play ZvT.
yep I kind of agree with that, I personnally favor taking an early third and fourth bases, as you need it anyway for larvae;
Just to qualify what has been said, you just need to adapt, against one base all ins, obviously; against banshees (you then need to take gas, and above all against mech, as you can't rely on pure lings to defend bfh (you then need more gas to make roaches and infestors)
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Either be super turtle and wait for more tanks, or overbuild Medivacs and go double upgrade for your Marines. Either style has it weaknesses against possible Zerg transitions (mass tanks against Muta, mass Marine against Infestor), so you'd need to watch for what the Zerg is building next and counter appropriately. But yes, having a lot of Medivacs and being equal on upgrades means your Marines should slaughter Zerglings.
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Same as alot of other people are saying, keep up on your upgrades with the z and you can trade more effiecent, hell even just mass marine medivac can take mass ling imo just gotta keep up on your upgrades
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On September 27 2011 15:04 ZaaaaaM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:18 Roblin wrote:
you mentioned at the end of the game "why dont all zergs do this?"
for the record: I do this. except a better version of this, I also add infestors and ultralisks when the time is right, thats right, ultralisks, 2/2 zerglings is what you faced in that game. imagine 3/3 cracklings. and 5/3 ultralisks. and infestors (which allow the ultras to become unkitable)
its a slaughter.
the reasons why it works are the following:
ultralisks share upgrades with zerglings.
the total efficiency of a single zergling that have 3 attack upgrades and adrenal glands (aka maxed except armor upgrades) is: base: 5, bonus: +1 (+20% efficiency) +1 (+20% efficency) +1 (20% efficiency) + 20%efficiency on the total of the previous (adrenal glands)
(1 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2) * 1.2 = 1.92 in other words, zerglings become 92% more efficient than standard speedlings by fully upgrading their damage potential.
infestors have no hardcounter except ghosts, and hellion/maruader/ghost (which is the hard-counter to my build) is not very commonly used. notice that hellion/maruader get crushed, the ghosts are necessary.
the reason why it doesnt work is the following:
when doing this build you lose to hellions period (until you get infestors). this is why I get roaches the instant I see hellions.
the reason why you lost that game however, is neither of the above but simply because he got way ahead of you in econ. you lost this game because of econ Starting at the second upgrade, you go from 6 to 7, which is less than 20%
It still is 20% of the original 5 and you'll notice that the formula is normalized so that 1=5. Your remark would be correct if he kept on multiplying by 1.2, but the only time he does so is for Adrenal (which is, indeed, multiplicative).
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To be totally blunt, a lot of people so far have been giving pretty terrible advice. You didn't have to go hellions, nor did you have to abuse drops to deal with this playstyle. In fact, tech switching would be bad because you'd have to modify your whole infrastructure midgame, leading to an even weaker army, and dropping doesn't work too well vs the most mobile ground units in the game.
The way you were playing was fine, but the way you went about it lacked execution. You scouted the double evo chamber early on, which means you know he was going to have upgraded lings, which vs unupgraded marines do pretty well. With that sort of upgrade commitment you should assume he's going for low tech with at least a decent sized army, so you should've probably responded even more passively. You could've broken down your rocks sooner, put a depot by the rocks at your third so you could've scouted the lings attacking it, and gotten up more infrastructure and either double engineering bay or an engineering bay and an armory a decent amount sooner, and just sit back and macro for a tad.
The thing people haven't seem to be considering in this thread is that zerg here had a severe tech delay. He didn't even start making his spire until roughly 14 minutes into the game, which is when most zergs should be heading for hive tech in a standard game. You can abuse this tech disadvantage by pouring as much money into tech as you can while turtling up and approaching max. Once you're maxed, it doesn't matter when he made however many lings, because your upgraded marine tank army should feasibly rip through it.
As it stands, you basically donated your army twice, and blindly took your third without scouting the rocks, knowing he had map control and all the time in the world to take them down, resulting in a not-so-good turnout for a third base.
My 2 cents. Take it or leave it.
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7377 Posts
i used this strat quite a bit, untill terrans started to go mas hellion +blueflame vs Zerg on regular basis, which canot be beaten by mass ling, not even infestor-ling really. Mech in general owns it, because the only way to beat iti s to rush that Hive out super quickly but if the Terran scans and moves out when the hive is about done, it should be a walkover. And the zerg always has to be weary of potentially 10 blueflame hellion raids
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