EPT[G] aXa's ZvT: Let's start the agression - Page 6
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Aelonius
Netherlands432 Posts
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
however, as in all matchups i do this style upgrade-heavy. Get double zergling upgrades going asap and keep them coming. You know how hard fully upgraded marines can beat zerglings who have no upgrades? Well, the opposite is true as well. Try to stay ahead/on par in the upgrade section and you can even be really cost-effective against 40+ stimmed marines (that is, if you surround them :p) furthermore, i get drop + overlord speed + burrow + baneling nest when i reach lair. Baneling bombs on marines are way more effective than you might think they would be (if you can get a hit in of course. If your opponent runs, he wont have the crazy marine dps, so your zerglings clean up). When most times banelings would just evaporate by some (aimed) siege tank shots, you can get them in quite safely with overlords if you bring a few extra. And hitting in the middle of the marines does about 4-5 times the damage a baneling would have done from outside the marine ball. Also, at least getting like 4-6 banelings and burrowing them in pairs is a really small investion considering you get burrow anyway (and the baneling nest for drops on marines/hellions/worker lines). 2 Banelings burrowed cost 100 minerals and 50 gas, but its not that rare for them to wipe out 1000-1500 minerals worth of marines if you place them in smart spots (and will therefore destroy pushes if your opponent is not careful enough. Just don't burrow them on creep, terrans seem to scan anyway as soon as they reach your hard work) And last (but not least) i tend to prefer air armor over air weapons. Sure, mutalisks are great and so on. But think about this: You may do some less damage to turrets, but you also take a lot less fire. So most of the time i bet it won't change a thing in lost hp. When you attack a medivac full of marines, its kinda the same thing. Except for if you have enough mutalisks to wipe them out in an instant, so you just reduce the fire your mutas take until they are in firing range. But mostly, air armor fits in nicely with overlords (for drops/scouts etc) and brood lords if you wish to get them, since afaik they do more dmg with the broodlings than with their shots anyways. It will help defending small groups of stimmed marines sneaking up on them much better than attack upgrades. And if you attack a fortified position it depends on your opponnents vikings/your infestors, never on your broodlord attack damage. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
some people do muta ling bling with heavy emphasis on mass muta, I do muta ling bling with heavy emphasis on mass double upgraded lings. | ||
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Hodgy
United States64 Posts
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WinteRR
Australia201 Posts
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Rafael
Venezuela182 Posts
It's nice because it promotes thinking outside the box and even doing your very own experiments. Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences. | ||
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Mojar
Australia185 Posts
In reality i see this not working at all against a Terran who actually scouts. | ||
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TrsH
Belgium11 Posts
i was getting fed up by how to play my ZvT and going for the standard ling/bling muta and losing to tank pushes over and over again. but this seems like a total different kind of playstyle and looks like its doing the job as long as you can fend of the drops and stuff, looks like it doesnt even matter if you lose a couple of drones early on, cause you're focussing on minerals so heavy the whole time. nice read and nice work. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
They are far better than broodlord with this style for several reasons: -First you have already the upgrades (3-3), so they are more efficient -Second, they are fast enough to not be totally outrun by zergling, allowing your army to be coherent -Third, they fit very well with zergling: Zergling allow ultra to hit even marines by surrounding them. Ultra absorb initial marine and tank shot, which is the time where zergling is cost ineffective because they are not in range yet. -Fourth, zergling and ultra tank an impressive amount of damage: Zergling because they take a lot of over-kill, ultra by they high armor and HP. The two combined allow you to overrun a terran army in a decisive fashion. -At last, utlra force marauder or ghost which are terrible against zergling. Anyway, broodlord are too slow and easily counter by ghost/viking. Here is a replay against a dropping player (all game long), with a BFH/marine elevator push in the early game. [url blocked] | ||
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Chrysalis
Poland7 Posts
Some things about zerglings vs marine/tank. If you surround the terran ball properly Marines will die even from tank splash demage. Very nice guide. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 01 2011 22:46 Oboeman wrote: Great post. this is basically how I have been playing ZvT over the last few months, and it is incredible. I take a very fast macro hatch, you can drone uninterrupted to 2 base saturation and churn out a ton of zerglings while you take your gas. You can easily have 60 lings out in time for a ~10 minute push with 15 marines, 3 tanks, and a medivac, and the zerglings win. I use my gas for 6-8 infestors and double upgrades, I get burrow, drops, and a quick hive. When you have a lot of lings you want to have them burrowed at every expo all over the map for scouting information. If he does a big push, I can flank it and kill it with infestor support. If he goes mass drops you split up your lings and infestors to defend your bases. If he expands, you drop zerglings into his main, or run into his natural, or burrow infestors around, or just keep expanding and get hive. Have one premade group of lings roaming the map, produce reinforcements, and flank him when he gets too close. I use queens and spines to keep hellions out of my base. It's difficult to take a 3rd base before lair unless he makes a mistake and lets you surround him with lings. Usually I get infestors (or muta) then double expo after a BFH opening. The slayers BFH elevator is trivial to hold off with queens and lings as long as you have creep in your main and have the queens in position when the medivac arrives. If you want a pro example of this kind of playstyle, look at DRG vs MKP from MVP vs PRime in the GSTL. This weekend the vods are free! DRG goes straight to 4 hatcheries and crushes a timing attack with pure zergling, then transitions into mutalisk zergling baneling. One thing that bothers me to no end in pro zerg play is how they always fall so far behind on upgrades, and then their zergling baneling no longer trades effectively. 2/0 ling/bane against 2/2 marines... you won't get a single hit unless the terran player really screws up. If you don't rely heavily on banelings, you can stay ahead of their upgrades, and if your carapace matches their attack upgrade, your units are always pretty good. I think especially the +carapace upgrade in ZVT is way undervalued by current playstyles - look at BW, and how incredibly important +1 carapace and +2 carapace was. If the terran got his +attack late, he could be in serious trouble. If the zerg got his corresponding +carapace late, he was suddenly paralyzed, his lurkers less able to move about and more vulnerable to vanilla bio + scans, well before the tank/vessel timing that should start threatening lurkers more. | ||
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
Without something to take down those marine balls you just die horrible to midgame pushes. Really need banelings to deal with them, or at least infestors. | ||
KangaRuthless
United States304 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + | ||
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00Visor
4337 Posts
I tested your build and I think there is a big hole after your investments at 28/28. The blind investment of 2 spines, 2 evos, 5 set of lings and then macro hatch, extractor, 2 additional queens, leaves you with only 16-18 drones at ~6:00. You then put 6 drones in gas, so only 10-12 on minerals. You could catch up in drones very quickly because of larvae, but I feel you really lack minerals at this point. I think that 2 spines, 4 queens and 7 sets of lings are too much of blind defense. Especially 2 spines, if you have 2 than 4 queens vs hellions and want to fight in open space anyways. Another idea is to not take drones of gas, get only one evo, and upgrade attack, then armor. You get your first ugrade faster, the second a bit later, and you safe 2 drones early for additional evo and exctractor. | ||
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icarly
United States400 Posts
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yagsllab
Germany33 Posts
sry for my bad english hope i could help  | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On September 08 2011 20:04 Peleus wrote: I feel as though it gets to a point where zerglings are useless against marines though. For example, 170 zerglings (1/1) against 55 marines (1/1), 2 siege tanks and 2 medivacs results in the terran winning the engagement with ~45 marines left. Without something to take down those marine balls you just die horrible to midgame pushes. Really need banelings to deal with them, or at least infestors. Good thing 170 lings doesn't cost any gas, which means you could either have 2/2 or at least two infestors at that point in time. and I hope those lings were in two or more control groups. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
Speedlings with upgrades are really cost efficient against anything and even sieged tanks are not too hard to crack with speedlings if you go for a flank (though of course it's better to catch them unsieged). A problem with lings is: Few lings can look like a lot and make you think you are ahead while in fact your army only has half the supply/cost size of the opponent. You need to develop a feel for how many zerglings you really have to understand how small armies you are actually used to throw at superior armies. 20 marines and 3 tanks cost as much as 70 speedlings (1 marine = 2 speedlings, 1 tank = ~10 speedlings) and 70 speedlings rip such a force apart in seconds. Time and time again i see Zerg throwing 30-40 speedlings at such a force because it looks equal in size and then they die a horrible death. So my tip to all Zerg players: - Build TONs of lings - Stay ahead in upgrades - Get hive fast for adrenal glands and 3/3 - Get drop tech, 3 overlords full of lings rip apart all production facilities of a terran in mere seconds and you don't even need to micro them - Attack a lot and keep his tank and marine numbers low, don't sit back and wait for him to get the critical number where speedlings stop being cost efficient | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
With 10+ medivacs ... I am sorry, lings just don't cut it any longer without banelings, because they can just clump up and stim, and ... not die. | ||
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MyNameIsAlex
Greece827 Posts
1 observation: Ultras are surprisingly good, coupled with lings in front (to draw fire) and fungals. 1 fungal and the ultra kills all the fungaled bio in 1 swing. Neural takes care of mech. | ||
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