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On December 17 2012 05:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 04:52 Rossie wrote:
Okay, so I played against a Terran on Cloud Kingdom who stayed on 3 bases, put a planetary on his third, and walled off everywhere and dug in with siege tanks.
I don't get how I'm supposed to beat that. I made sure I was 2 bases ahead of him, but still ended up losing. You can't afford to throw away your army even if you're 2 bases ahead, apparently.
More generally, how are you supposed to punish a Terran with a planetary fortress after you kill his army? At this point my colossus have likely disappeared, my HTs have run out of energy. So I'm left with zealots and archons primarily. HOW am I supposed to either (1) attack up a ramp, or (2) destroy a planetary with these awkward units and their fucking stupid attack priority AI? I'd also like to know how to beat super-turtle mech into ghost/tank/battlecruiser on CK. It's a miserable, boring style to play against, but you can't break them, you can't harass them, and any ground army gets melted when they finally reach their perfect army. Do you just have to get carriers?
Carrier + Templar is the go-to transition against turtle -> mega army...
But you have to know what's up in time or you still lose cuz upgrades.
Also Momaship can be good.
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Thanks for advice.
Anybody know what to do against just a normal Terran, not a turtle Terran, who decides to take a planetary on the 3rd?
I have no idea how you're supposed to punish that after you've just destroyed his army and have no colossus or energy for storms. So the result is that he can keep attacking and attacking, without me being able to attack him. And eventually he gets a lucky engagement and wins the match.
So what's the best way to kill a planetary fortress with units you're likely to have left after a big battle?
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Well any trouble I'm having at my level can be rectified by playing better. But I suppose from a meta-game perspective it doesn't seem fair that Terran get this base defense which counts for like 50 supply if repaired by SCVs. And not being able to do ANYTHING to harass Terran's 3rd, unless you have an army strong enough to win the match outright, seems like a bit of a raw deal for Protoss.
So I'm thinking, maybe there's room for anti-planetary tactics, like always leaving behind a few supply of "siege units" like HTs or sentries when you scout a planetary. So after a big battle you can siege them with force fields and storms. Or maybe get 2 robo cores so you quickly reinforce with AoE.
One crazy idea might be to bring in a warp prism, deploy, build some photon cannons. Then 1-A your zealots. And photon cannons have 1 more range than planetaries, which might come in useful. Please somebody who has micro try this tactic; it's so cute it deserves to work. =)
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On December 17 2012 08:25 Rossie wrote:
Well any trouble I'm having at my level can be rectified by playing better. But I suppose from a meta-game perspective it doesn't seem fair that Terran get this base defense which counts for like 50 supply if repaired by SCVs. And not being able to do ANYTHING to harass Terran's 3rd, unless you have an army strong enough to win the match outright, seems like a bit of a raw deal for Protoss.
So I'm thinking, maybe there's room for anti-planetary tactics, like always leaving behind a few supply of "siege units" like HTs or sentries when you scout a planetary. So after a big battle you can siege them with force fields and storms. Or maybe get 2 robo cores so you quickly reinforce with AoE.
One crazy idea might be to bring in a warp prism, deploy, build some photon cannons. Then 1-A your zealots. And photon cannons have 1 more range than planetaries, which might come in useful. Please somebody who has micro try this tactic; it's so cute it deserves to work. =)
No, no no! Don´t build cannons to kill PF. Just grab your army and focus the planetary fortress. If SCV starts to repair, just kill the SCVs. Anyway PvT army consists MAINLY of chargelots, so if you surround the PF with zealots you should kill it in no time.
Surround PF=win
And with colossi focus fire the SCVs, they will melt so fast.
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On December 17 2012 08:25 Rossie wrote:
Well any trouble I'm having at my level can be rectified by playing better. But I suppose from a meta-game perspective it doesn't seem fair that Terran get this base defense which counts for like 50 supply if repaired by SCVs. And not being able to do ANYTHING to harass Terran's 3rd, unless you have an army strong enough to win the match outright, seems like a bit of a raw deal for Protoss.
So I'm thinking, maybe there's room for anti-planetary tactics, like always leaving behind a few supply of "siege units" like HTs or sentries when you scout a planetary. So after a big battle you can siege them with force fields and storms. Or maybe get 2 robo cores so you quickly reinforce with AoE.
One crazy idea might be to bring in a warp prism, deploy, build some photon cannons. Then 1-A your zealots. And photon cannons have 1 more range than planetaries, which might come in useful. Please somebody who has micro try this tactic; it's so cute it deserves to work. =)
You know, you can always just attack somewhere else.
If he invests in a PF that takes resources from the army and he misses out on MULES.
IF you take a decisive win you can simply ignore the third and push into the natural, most of the time you will even kill some production, further weakening Terrran untill you can just crush him.
on a map like Ohana where it is really hard to push into the natural, using a warp prism to harass the main while pressuring the third is always good. Don't overcommit on the PF, just try to deal SOME damage with Colossi or something and stay in position to kill units that try to save it.
PFs are really strong against ground armies so you want to circumvent it whenever you have the slightest doubt that you can take it down and get away from the army / face both.
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Actually, I think the best and most reliable solution is just to save an HT or two and storm the SCVs to kingdom fuck. You always should have some HTs saved anyway, for base defense and otherwise.
Good.I ain't afraid of no planetary fortress. =)
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My question is simple:
How to def Cannon Rush on Antiga Shipyard?
I always lose to it. If I have a Probe patrolling on the low-ground he just waits till it leaves. If he start the Cannons before CC he wins.
If I try to build a reactive Forge I lose a lot of mining and then Still cannot kill the Cannon before he is at like 60 Supply on Blink Stalkers.
I tried walling off the ramp to deny his probe but then I lack the resources to make Cannons/Stalkers.
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On December 18 2012 05:30 rEalGuapo wrote:
My question is simple:
How to def Cannon Rush on Antiga Shipyard?
I always lose to it. If I have a Probe patrolling on the low-ground he just waits till it leaves. If he start the Cannons before CC he wins.
If I try to build a reactive Forge I lose a lot of mining and then Still cannot kill the Cannon before he is at like 60 Supply on Blink Stalkers.
I tried walling off the ramp to deny his probe but then I lack the resources to make Cannons/Stalkers.
Defending the Cannon Rush in PvP:
1) Always build your buildings on the side of the nexus away from the ramp.
2) If he builds his cannons anywhere other than next to your ramp or in range of your probes, expand to another location such as your third or a different main, ignore the cannons, and send zealots to his main to kill probes. He shouldn't have cannons or a gateway finished to defend with.
3) If he builds on the low ground next to your ramp, and your probes can't get there in time, get stalkers or a forge done as quickly as possible. If you go the fast stalker rout, engage the cannons one at a time with at least 2 stalkers or before the cannon finishes being constructed, pulling the weaker stalker back when it runs out of shields. If the cannon is in range of your probes before your stalkers are done, pull the probes out of the way and just mine your gas and the four mineral patches not being targeted.
4) If he builds on the high ground, you have to kill it with probes before the cannon finishes or you're screwed. Generally, you need 4 probes per cannon that gets constructed. Try to get a surround on the enemy probe, but don't waste more than one probe with chasing it around if you can't get the surround.
5) The best follow-up is 4 gate+warp prism. Attack at the front with your pre-warp gate units to force a bunch of cannons for defense, then hit him at the back with the warp prism. If only one of those cannons is completed, attack it until at least the second finishes so he can't cancel them.
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Hey guys,
Before I posted on losing to a lot of 2gates in PvP. Now I've got a really embarrassing problem - I'm still losing to 2gates that I can't find, like in this game http://drop.sc/285321 . I scout on 13, scout in my base, natural, and third every game, but still lose to 2gates in far away places. I'm doing the MVPTails phoenix opener, in case anyone was wondering about my build order, which calls for a zealot at 18 food. Should I give in to the ladder and scout on 9? That's just bad, but I'm trying to get into masters and this high-diamond low-masters PvP cheese buffet is very annoying. Thanks for you help again, and one day I hope to be GM at cheese defense -___-
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On December 18 2012 05:30 rEalGuapo wrote:
My question is simple:
How to def Cannon Rush on Antiga Shipyard?
I always lose to it. If I have a Probe patrolling on the low-ground he just waits till it leaves. If he start the Cannons before CC he wins.
If I try to build a reactive Forge I lose a lot of mining and then Still cannot kill the Cannon before he is at like 60 Supply on Blink Stalkers.
I tried walling off the ramp to deny his probe but then I lack the resources to make Cannons/Stalkers.
if you build the gas and it completes you can see if he is building a pylon on the low ground.
Also send 4 probes to attack buildings throw down a forge stop mining gas and build one cannon close to the ramp so his probe can't walk up later for vision
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On December 18 2012 09:45 SpacemanG wrote:Hey guys, Before I posted on losing to a lot of 2gates in PvP. Now I've got a really embarrassing problem - I'm still losing to 2gates that I can't find, like in this game http://drop.sc/285321 . I scout on 13, scout in my base, natural, and third every game, but still lose to 2gates in far away places. I'm doing the MVPTails phoenix opener, in case anyone was wondering about my build order, which calls for a zealot at 18 food. Should I give in to the ladder and scout on 9? That's just bad, but I'm trying to get into masters and this high-diamond low-masters PvP cheese buffet is very annoying. Thanks for you help again, and one day I hope to be GM at cheese defense -___-
That build is just weaker to 2 gate proxy because of the delayed zealot. This combined with your habit of scouting everywhere leads you get killed from far away proxy locations. You can either take the build order loss or just go and scout his base.
The problem with scouting his base is that you lose to closer two gate proxy places. I would reccomend just scouting the major proxy locations and then go to his base don't waste soo much time checking every little place. Hit the major locations and check the watch tower on your way to his base.
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I apologize if this is the incorrect place to ask this question.
I am a bronze Protoss player and I am just looking for a safe, beginner friendly, and macro oriented PvZ build. According to the [G] Safe PvX openings thread the 3-Gate Sentry Expand is one such possible build. Is this still a viable build for lower ladder levels?
Thank you.
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On December 18 2012 10:34 mbmonk wrote:I apologize if this is the incorrect place to ask this question. I am a bronze Protoss player and I am just looking for a safe, beginner friendly, and macro oriented PvZ build. According to the [G] Safe PvX openings thread the 3-Gate Sentry Expand is one such possible build. Is this still a viable build for lower ladder levels? Thank you.
FFE, FFE, FFE
It's a lot easier to defend with cannons, than it is with FFs at a lower level.
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On December 18 2012 12:00 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 10:34 mbmonk wrote:I apologize if this is the incorrect place to ask this question. I am a bronze Protoss player and I am just looking for a safe, beginner friendly, and macro oriented PvZ build. According to the [G] Safe PvX openings thread the 3-Gate Sentry Expand is one such possible build. Is this still a viable build for lower ladder levels? Thank you. FFE, FFE, FFE It's a lot easier to defend with cannons, than it is with FFs at a lower level.
But a lot harder to scout properly and make the appropriate reads that go with an FFE. Telling a bronze player to FFE is futile, imo, as they can only execute it to a certain level, a point where I feel it is unproductive to do such a build, as their understanding is so limited that they're essentially playing blindly.
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On December 18 2012 19:26 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 12:00 mizU wrote:On December 18 2012 10:34 mbmonk wrote:I apologize if this is the incorrect place to ask this question. I am a bronze Protoss player and I am just looking for a safe, beginner friendly, and macro oriented PvZ build. According to the [G] Safe PvX openings thread the 3-Gate Sentry Expand is one such possible build. Is this still a viable build for lower ladder levels? Thank you. FFE, FFE, FFE It's a lot easier to defend with cannons, than it is with FFs at a lower level. But a lot harder to scout properly and make the appropriate reads that go with an FFE. Telling a bronze player to FFE is futile, imo, as they can only execute it to a certain level, a point where I feel it is unproductive to do such a build, as their understanding is so limited that they're essentially playing blindly.
Well, I'd definitely recommend a FFE over a 3 gate sentry build ;;
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On December 18 2012 10:34 mbmonk wrote:I apologize if this is the incorrect place to ask this question. I am a bronze Protoss player and I am just looking for a safe, beginner friendly, and macro oriented PvZ build. According to the [G] Safe PvX openings thread the 3-Gate Sentry Expand is one such possible build. Is this still a viable build for lower ladder levels? Thank you.
For players lower than Diamond I would always advise to do this!
It is very simple and actually gives you a chance to really focus on improving mechanics.
Give it a try, you will be surprised!
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So, lately one of my go-to tactics in PvP has been a 2-base all-in that (ideally) hits as soon as Colossus range finishes, with 6 gates and a total of four Colossi produced out of a single Robo. I do this if I have a decent advantage for whatever reason. Generally this tends to be:
A) Opponent stayed on 1 base for a long time.
B) Opponent's Colossus tech is substantially later than my own.
Is this a thing? If not, is there a way to punish a late expansion? What about late Colossus tech? Should I just invest in the late-game, or is there a way to just go kill these players?
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I just wanted to quickly thank mizU, Gumbi, and rEalGuapo for the replies. I will look into the TheStaircase. It seems like an intriguing way to improve.
My main concern with using FFE, is that I had to learn different building placements for every map of the buildings, instead of just focusing on my macro. The recent release of the impressive and exhaustive PvZ guide here on TL would really help cut down on the learning curve of building placements for the FFE. So I am still considering FFE as my first main build.
Thank you all.
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Italy12248 Posts
Well you kinda need to simcity with every opening, but you tend to use 1-2gates+forge+pylon instead of gate/forge/pyon/eventual cyber core.
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EPT
