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On December 18 2012 20:08 Salivanth wrote:
So, lately one of my go-to tactics in PvP has been a 2-base all-in that (ideally) hits as soon as Colossus range finishes, with 6 gates and a total of four Colossi produced out of a single Robo. I do this if I have a decent advantage for whatever reason. Generally this tends to be:
A) Opponent stayed on 1 base for a long time.
B) Opponent's Colossus tech is substantially later than my own.
Is this a thing? If not, is there a way to punish a late expansion? What about late Colossus tech? Should I just invest in the late-game, or is there a way to just go kill these players?
Two base colossus timings are generally a thing. If you KNOW for a fact, that the moment you arrive at his natural you will still have a colossus lead, and that he's not going to have any kind of tech/superior gateway army to make up for it, then by all means go in. The difficulty is knowing all of these things at the right time, and initiating correctly at the choke in his natural.
PvP's were pretty much dictated by these abstract timings for a long time until openings stabilized a little in the past year and both Protoss could both take their second base on relatively even terms. It's not that often that openings can grant you such significant advantages anymore.
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I think it's hard to attack with 4 colossi and range because by the time you cross the map, your opponent will probably have 4+ colossi, range, and a positioning advantage. If you carry a colossus advantage or you're able to get range significantly faster than your opponent, then sure, go for it. One trick I like to do if I have range before my opponent is put my colossi in a separate control group and edge them forward to kite down his units while he can't shoot back. When he gets range, the fun comes to a stop, but if you're able to kill some units for free while building your own army, you're often able to move in for the kill.
That attack is dependent on an unusual scenario where your support bay is well ahead of theirs. I mentioned a few days ago that I like to do a 6 gate attack that's a little like yours, but I hit with my first colossus and I skip range. This attack is available more often because if you peg your opponent on a robo expand, you can cut a bunch of safety and macro investments, rush out your support bay, and all-in while he's setting up for a longer game.
Here's a rep of what I like to do:
http://drop.sc/285638
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Ooh, thanks. I remember hearing about your build earlier in the thread, but a replay? You are awesome, kcdc.
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On December 19 2012 04:43 Salivanth wrote:
Ooh, thanks. I remember hearing about your build earlier in the thread, but a replay? You are awesome, kcdc.
My opponent did a really bad build, but you can just ignore his side. If he'd gone for observer, support bay, thermal lance, his third and fourth assimilators and a forge (standard path), the attack would have looked similarly lopsided.
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Seems like a good push! In that game you linked though, how did you know your opponent was going for a robo expand to begin with? I watched it from your side, to see what you scouted and so on, but I would have had no idea what to put my opponent on when you had already committed to the attack. I can only assume you figured it out somehow.
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On December 19 2012 05:12 Salivanth wrote:
Seems like a good push! In that game you linked though, how did you know your opponent was going for a robo expand to begin with? I watched it from your side, to see what you scouted and so on, but I would have had no idea what to put my opponent on when you had already committed to the attack. I can only assume you figured it out somehow.
Well, I saw his expansion, so that takes a lot of the guesswork out of it, but I'd actually pegged him on a robo expand before that.
He started with zealot and his 2nd gas was late (delayed by my probe). Starting with a zealot tells you he's not likely to go for a blink build, and the late gas makes it difficult to go for a phoenix or DT build. He also chronoboosted his gateway after his zealot which I read as him wanting a ranged unit fast so that he could throw down a tech structure. That chronoboost often suggests stargate, but I'd already ruled out stargate by his gas timing, so I read it as robo. When I left his base with my probe, I was pretty sure he was going robo, and robo usually means expansion.
After confirming his expansion, I knew the no-range colossus attack had a good chance to win the game, so I went for it.
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...Wow.
I have a lot to learn.
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On December 19 2012 01:21 kcdc wrote:I think it's hard to attack with 4 colossi and range because by the time you cross the map, your opponent will probably have 4+ colossi, range, and a positioning advantage. If you carry a colossus advantage or you're able to get range significantly faster than your opponent, then sure, go for it. One trick I like to do if I have range before my opponent is put my colossi in a separate control group and edge them forward to kite down his units while he can't shoot back. When he gets range, the fun comes to a stop, but if you're able to kill some units for free while building your own army, you're often able to move in for the kill. That attack is dependent on an unusual scenario where your support bay is well ahead of theirs. I mentioned a few days ago that I like to do a 6 gate attack that's a little like yours, but I hit with my first colossus and I skip range. This attack is available more often because if you peg your opponent on a robo expand, you can cut a bunch of safety and macro investments, rush out your support bay, and all-in while he's setting up for a longer game. Here's a rep of what I like to do: http://drop.sc/285638
Eh, I wouldn't commit to any number of colossi in the broad discussion of how to capitalize on an advantage in PvP. It's more rather a game sense like any in a mirror match that is embodied by the colossus. When you have an advantage with a window that isn't going to be missed by traveling to his base, then slam down extra gates and go for the kill.
Like I said, these weird abstract timings were a common product of a passing metagame where an extended early game meant opponents rarely entered the midgame in an equal and consistently measureable capacity. Getting those kinds of leads really don't happen that often anymore. The game you link is more of a reaction to a build.
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On December 19 2012 06:40 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 01:21 kcdc wrote:I think it's hard to attack with 4 colossi and range because by the time you cross the map, your opponent will probably have 4+ colossi, range, and a positioning advantage. If you carry a colossus advantage or you're able to get range significantly faster than your opponent, then sure, go for it. One trick I like to do if I have range before my opponent is put my colossi in a separate control group and edge them forward to kite down his units while he can't shoot back. When he gets range, the fun comes to a stop, but if you're able to kill some units for free while building your own army, you're often able to move in for the kill. That attack is dependent on an unusual scenario where your support bay is well ahead of theirs. I mentioned a few days ago that I like to do a 6 gate attack that's a little like yours, but I hit with my first colossus and I skip range. This attack is available more often because if you peg your opponent on a robo expand, you can cut a bunch of safety and macro investments, rush out your support bay, and all-in while he's setting up for a longer game. Here's a rep of what I like to do: http://drop.sc/285638 Eh, I wouldn't commit to any number of colossi in the broad discussion of how to capitalize on an advantage in PvP. It's more rather a game sense like any in a mirror match that is embodied by the colossus. When you have an advantage with a window that isn't going to be missed by traveling to his base, then slam down extra gates and go for the kill. Like I said, these weird abstract timings were a common product of a passing metagame where an extended early game meant opponents rarely entered the midgame in an equal and consistently measureable capacity. Getting those kinds of leads really don't happen anymore. The game you link is more of a reaction to a build.
It is a reactive timing, and it's also a cheese that can be shut down hard if a player scouts it quickly and responds well. That said, it does not depend on getting a lead in early game. It simply requires both you and your opponent to do some variant of a robo expand and you to scout his expansion early. I like to robo expand and I'm pretty good at scouting and reading my opponent, so that scenario happens pretty often.
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I have a problem when facing reaper opening...normally opponent will tech up to stim and hit a timing when the stim is finished... How is the most effective solution to defend it? Should I tech up to colossus immediately or build more sentry and immortal?
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If this is off one base, there's no way Colossus tech will be finished in time to deal with it. Good FF's and gateway units are needed to stop a 1-base stim attack, and Immortals certainly don't hurt. If it's off two base, I don't know.
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Defending 2 bases against 1-base stim timing, the answer is still good FF's and gateway units. You'll also need to do some zealot/stalker micro using zealots to tank, stalkers to focus fire, and keep reinforcing. Terran winds up doing a lot of damage stimming himself to death too.
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Hello, two questions :D
Is there a way to drop single units out of a warp prism? For example, if I have immortal/stalker/zealot in a prism, can I drop just the stalker?
Also, curious if anyone has replays of pros doing the single col -> templar PvT build they'd be willing to share.
Thanks
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Are they any good early-game all-ins that I could use against zerg? Terran has proxy 11/11 that is good in TvP and TvZ, Zerg has their early pools. I was thinking proxy 2 gate but it doesn't work too much against zergs I'm facing.
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On December 21 2012 00:05 nomyx wrote:
Are they any good early-game all-ins that I could use against zerg? Terran has proxy 11/11 that is good in TvP and TvZ, Zerg has their early pools. I was thinking proxy 2 gate but it doesn't work too much against zergs I'm facing.
Two base all-ins are your best bet really. 6 gate, 7 gate, immortal 7 gate, etc. If you really want to go one base you can block his natural and all-in from there, but thats about it. Anything else will be immediately scouted and met with a wall of spines at his natural.
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On December 21 2012 00:05 nomyx wrote:
Are they any good early-game all-ins that I could use against zerg? Terran has proxy 11/11 that is good in TvP and TvZ, Zerg has their early pools. I was thinking proxy 2 gate but it doesn't work too much against zergs I'm facing.
Proxy 2 gate is terrible :[ It's usually pretty easy to scout and defend against to, and if they backstab you lose.
I'd recommend a 3gate stargate VR all in or 3 gate robo. ^^
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Italy12248 Posts
On December 21 2012 04:17 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 00:05 nomyx wrote:
Are they any good early-game all-ins that I could use against zerg? Terran has proxy 11/11 that is good in TvP and TvZ, Zerg has their early pools. I was thinking proxy 2 gate but it doesn't work too much against zergs I'm facing. Proxy 2 gate is terrible :[ It's usually pretty easy to scout and defend against to, and if they backstab you lose. I'd recommend a 3gate stargate VR all in or 3 gate robo. ^^
One base all-ins vs Zerg are terrible.
The only thing you can do is, i guess, a hardcore cannon rush. On the bright side, you have a million 2base all-ins to choose from 
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How do I punish a 3 hatch before Pool if I open FFE? I sent my zealot/stalker straight to his third but he had enough lings in time to defend. Should I have went with a 2nd gate instead of the core?
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EPT
