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Italy12247 Posts
The most common timings used off the top of my head are:
1) Some kind of 5-7 gate blink stalker timing, sometimes with immortals.
2) A 2base chargelot/archon bust, which is not very popular since it's somewhat easy to react to it and wall off in time
3) 6gate with a single Colossus with no range (kcdc detailes it much better below).
4) Very rarely used, 2stargate phoenix after expanding. If you can deny scouting and kill the observer, this can be deadly against someone cutting units to tech to Speed Prism/Immortal or Colossus as fast as possible.
Generally 2base timings in PvP aren't very figured out because the early game is so volatile. Mostly you see them when someone gets an advantage from the early game, like shutting down gateway pressure, DT's or Phoenixes, having a significantly faster nexus that goes unpunished, or after doing damage with blink/obs harassment.
As far as macro PvP goes, here's a few notes:
- Tons of Colossi is what you want in the midgame, and most builds go double robo off two bases.
- Getting 2 immortals and a speed warp prism before the first Colossus is extremely good against fast expand/robo builds, which will cut stalkers heavily and open up room for your warp prism to harass.
- In my experience (which might be wrong) you can take a third when you confirm that no dedicated 2 base all-in is coming, ie you see a relatively low gateway count (up to like 4) and double robo. If you see he doesn't respond to your third with his own nexus just cut probes and a bit of tech and add gates and units as you can afford it.
- Doing a delayed all-in with two robos isn't very effective because having the defender's advantage with the Colossus reinforcement is so strong, so it's not done at all in pro games.
- Attack upgrades are key, as being the first to have +3 attack opens up very strong timings. Armor upgrades on the other hand are very weak.
- Lategame army compositions have changed recently, as people have figured out that it's not only about having a high colosuss count; it's more important to have several layers in your army. You want one row of zealots to tank the first volleys of Colossi, a second row of Archons, a third of 5-6 Immortals (edit: monk tells me modern lategame armies go up to 10-12 wtf :O), and finally about 8 Colossi. You should switch into Immortals after reaching a high Colossus count.
- 4th bases are taken after maxing out, which is when people also start teching to Mothership. Trying to get the mothership before maxing is very dangerous as it opens a huge window of vulnerability.
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On December 16 2012 01:18 Salivanth wrote:
Ah, okay. In that case, I'll learn it.
Next question: Are there any good 2-base all-ins in PvP? I'm learning 2-base timings to get back into the swing of Protoss macro, but the only PvP all-ins I know are 1-base. Hell, I don't even know how to play a macro PvP anymore.
If you go for a quick expansion with robo follow-up and you peg your opponent on the same, you can do a 1 colossus rush which is very powerful.
Basically, you skip your obs, rush out the support bay as soon as the robo finishes, stay on 2 gas, add gates until you're at 6, rally your colossus across the map and attack. It works because they're still producing probes, going to 4 gas, researching colossus range, adding a forge and +1 weapons, and a lot of times they'll have gone to double-robo. Once you have enough gas for your first colossus, I recommend going to 4 probes on gas from that point forward and building only zealots and colossi.
It's not 100% all-in because at least you have colossi, but if it fails, you don't have range or upgrades and you've cut probes. That said, I think I'm undefeated with the push (the scenario doesn't come up much).
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Anyone have a basic BO outline and timings for a 3 base colossus push pvz? Assuming a map where it's possible to get a relatively fast 3rd.
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Wow, thanks guys! Seeing as my go-to build has been a 3-4 gate 1 colossus rush off 1 base, I think this 6 gate will be an elegant transition. So now I just need to learn to expand in PvP! What's a good time to expand off a 1 gate before robo build, assuming the opponent is staying on one base, but not attacking me?
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Italy12247 Posts
I expand after my warpgate and obs is done off like 5-6 units, before i start an immortal...the timing is like around 6:20 ish or so. I'm sure it's not optimal but it works out for me.
@VoirDire: basically you start teching up when the Zerg is also teching up (ie you see an infestation pit with an obs/stargate units), add the twilight council when either +1 attack or +1 armor is halfway done (depending on your build and how greedy you want to play). You have to keep in mind the timing for when he can morph his broodlords by seeing his Hive timing, and trying to push accordingly:
For reference:
- Infestation Pit build time: 50 seconds, Time till Brood Lords: 4 minutes 44 seconds
- Hive build time: 100 seconds, Time till Brood Lords: 3 minutes 54 seconds
- Greater Spire build time: 100 seconds, Time till Brood Lords: 2 minutes 14 seconds
- Brood Lord morph time: 34 seconds
You can also play a bit risky and tech up to colossus/twilight council as you are setting up your third. It's kind of a gamble as that makes you susceptible to a roach max, but it's a reasonable risk to take on moden maps, and with so many zergs going for fast hives.
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On December 16 2012 04:22 Salivanth wrote:
Wow, thanks guys! Seeing as my go-to build has been a 3-4 gate 1 colossus rush off 1 base, I think this 6 gate will be an elegant transition. So now I just need to learn to expand in PvP! What's a good time to expand off a 1 gate before robo build, assuming the opponent is staying on one base, but not attacking me?
I should say that my 2-base single colossus rush works at my level because my opponents are predictably setting up to head toward lategame with upgrades and double colossus production. At lower levels, the push may well be garbage if players are doing silly things like massing immortals or gateway units or void rays or whatever.
As for expanding in PvP, there are 3 common ways to do it:
(1) before robo (usually 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, nexus, 2 more sentries, then robo)
(2) after robo (a zealot, some sentries, an observer, then nexus)
(3) after phoenixes (later expansion, but you deal damage and have map control all game)
In all cases, the keys to defending the expansion are forcefields and immortal production.
There are also DT expand builds, but they're not as common as the other options and I don't know much about them.
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You can also play a bit risky and tech up to colossus/twilight council as you are setting up your third. It's kind of a gamble as that makes you susceptible to a roach max, but it's a reasonable risk to take on moden maps, and with so many zergs going for fast hives.
That's the one I'm looking for. Let's say it's Entombed Valley and you want to make a sort of blind 3 base colossus all-in.
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Italy12247 Posts
On December 16 2012 05:03 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +You can also play a bit risky and tech up to colossus/twilight council as you are setting up your third. It's kind of a gamble as that makes you susceptible to a roach max, but it's a reasonable risk to take on moden maps, and with so many zergs going for fast hives. That's the one I'm looking for. Let's say it's Entombed Valley and you want to make a sort of blind 3 base colossus all-in.
In that case i suggest just looking at a few replays from the replay pack in the big PvZ articles.
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Kcdc, wouldn't that before robo fast expand relying on four sentries to defend it die to a 1-base colossus all-in like, every time? I mean, you've spent 400 gas on something that's now nearly useless.
Oh, and how do you actually beat a 1-base 1 colossus all-in, whether you are sentry-heavy or not? I don't think mine has ever failed when I've done it adequately: The only times I've lost where when I've REALLY screwed up, or lost to all-ins/cheese that hit faster than mine.
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Italy12247 Posts
There's two ways to beat a one base colossus all-in: either use sentries to ff your natural ramp, and when the colossus comes up to break the ff focus it with immortal (which is what kcdc does), or go zealot/immortal heavy, engage in the open and try to get a flank off.
I think if you read it perfectly you also -might- get colossus up in time (i think i've seen Cecil do this on his stream but don't quote me on that), but i'm not completely sure on that. Personally i haven't played vs 1base Colossus in ages, and when i did i usually held somewhat comfortably if i didn't fuck up.
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quick question
PVZ, my third is up and my robo bay is building
normally am i supposed to make observers while it's building, or do i save it for colossus and other tech? i've found recently that since i only make 1 obs then immortals i'm kind of in the dark once my observer is denied
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Italy12247 Posts
With an immortal expand build, you usually make two observers before immortals and then cut immortals for colossus. The first observer's goal is to scout the Zerg's build, the second (which is optional) is there to look for aggression, runbys etc.
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I think the easiest way to defend a 1-base colossus all-in is to simply pump zealots and immortals off of 5 gates + robo and engage in an open space. It's true that the early 4 sentries and 3 stalkers aren't super helpful for defending the push, but you can hold anyway.
The other way is to go for immortals, sentries and stalkers, spam forcefields and focus fire the colossus as it stomps the forcefields. If you have good micro, that can be effective.
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Can someone explain me what should be the best 4 gate blink all in vs protoss? I mean how many stalkers and at what timing should I hit, also when should I stop probe production. I tried to search but I found only about the variation with robo and observer.
I can get blink very early but have few stalkers. I've thought about something like this
18 2nd gas
20 2nd gate
4:08 twilight council
5:15 +2 gates
It would hit at about 7:15 with 11 stalkers, is it fine?
I'm low masters.
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On December 16 2012 08:12 KingAlphard wrote:
Can someone explain me what should be the best 4 gate blink all in vs protoss? I mean how many stalkers and at what timing should I hit, also when should I stop probe production. I tried to search but I found only about the variation with robo and observer.
I can get blink very early but have few stalkers. I've thought about something like this
18 2nd gas
20 2nd gate
4:08 twilight council
5:15 +2 gates
It would hit at about 7:15 with 11 stalkers, is it fine?
I'm low masters.
There was an old build that huk would do. going 1gate twilight into 3gates. He builds 2-3 stalker form the first gate then tries to hit after 1-2 warpins. You basically try to hit as fast as possible, blinking 1 stalker on the ramp then the rest up. Its very all in but quite effective if you want a blink allin.
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So yeah. . .
I just played on Ohana and defended 6pool losing 2 Probes. I saw He was expanding afterwards so I retook my natural extremely early (killed all his lings with Probes and Cannon).
I then thought, what the hell lets go with the original gameplan. 3Base Immortal Blinkstalker all in with warpprism +1attack pressure while taking the third.
I was unable to do any damage to him with my warp prism play because he already had Roaches out.
So I take my third knowing that he goes for Roach max.
My third is untouchable. My Natural has the standart Wall-off and I feel like this game is already won.
Suddenly I see a huge red blob on the minimap.
He drops his maxed roach army in my main base and kills it completely. In the process of cleaning up I lose a lot.
He then REMAXED and killed me.
I watched the replay.
Usually Roach max is around 11:30
He was maxed at 13:00
at minute 14 he drops all that shit in my base and already has a bank of almost 3k Minerals and 700ish Gas. Off of 3 fucking bases.
I have no idea what to do against this drop shit.
The few times I saw it in pro games it was ez win for zerg.
The few times I played against it it was ez win for Zerg.
So two questions:
Do I have to go for 2base Blinkstalker all-in after 6pool?
Is there any way to win against a maxed Roach army that drops into your main base while you have like 40 fighting dupply.
The latter does not need to be answered as it is "no".
Keep in mind that his attack was delayd by roughly two minutes, since I had to cut probes and delay my nexus a lot I was also set back by around 2 minutes. So I am clueless as of what to do..
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Italy12247 Posts
The only way to deal with that is to see it coming with an obs and position accordingly; post a replay if you want any more analyiss than that. Generally though, robo based expansion builds get two observes (or one warp prism and one obs).
If you are caught out of position you are going to lose way too much in clearing his drop.
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So, lately one of my go-to tactics has been a 2-base all-in that (ideally) hits as soon as Colossus range finishes, with 6 gates and a total of four Colossi produced out of a single Robo. I do this if I have an advantage, for example, when I fended off a 1-base DT build, I knew I had the gas advantage and my expansion was up a lot faster than him, so I went for this all-in. Is this a thing? If not, is there a better way to push off 2 bases in order to kill a late expand, or should I just invest in the lategame somehow?
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Okay, so I played against a Terran on Cloud Kingdom who stayed on 3 bases, put a planetary on his third, and walled off everywhere and dug in with siege tanks.
I don't get how I'm supposed to beat that. I made sure I was 2 bases ahead of him, but still ended up losing. You can't afford to throw away your army even if you're 2 bases ahead, apparently.
More generally, how are you supposed to punish a Terran with a planetary fortress after you kill his army? At this point my colossus have likely disappeared, my HTs have run out of energy. So I'm left with zealots and archons primarily. HOW am I supposed to either (1) attack up a ramp, or (2) destroy a planetary with these awkward units and their fucking stupid attack priority AI?
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On December 17 2012 04:52 Rossie wrote:
Okay, so I played against a Terran on Cloud Kingdom who stayed on 3 bases, put a planetary on his third, and walled off everywhere and dug in with siege tanks.
I don't get how I'm supposed to beat that. I made sure I was 2 bases ahead of him, but still ended up losing. You can't afford to throw away your army even if you're 2 bases ahead, apparently.
More generally, how are you supposed to punish a Terran with a planetary fortress after you kill his army? At this point my colossus have likely disappeared, my HTs have run out of energy. So I'm left with zealots and archons primarily. HOW am I supposed to either (1) attack up a ramp, or (2) destroy a planetary with these awkward units and their fucking stupid attack priority AI?
I'd also like to know how to beat super-turtle mech into ghost/tank/battlecruiser on CK. It's a miserable, boring style to play against, but you can't break them, you can't harass them, and any ground army gets melted when they finally reach their perfect army. Do you just have to get carriers?
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EPT
