EPTHow do you guys practise your build orders, or do you just wing it?
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Immutant
Singapore201 Posts
How do you guys practise your build orders, or do you just wing it? | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:52 Immutant wrote: Hello, I am just posting here for a quick reply. I am a high plat random player. Currently, I want to brush up on my Protoss build orders. However, the YABOT maps seem out of date and I get errors when I try to run the 1.4.4 version. How do you guys practise your build orders, or do you just wing it? I practise them by playing empty games, no PC to battle, just me doing my build. Also has the advantage of not showing your builds in profile, but that is probably not important for you. Oh you're random. And you practice builds outside the game. I'm impressed, it is the right approach but so few people do this. | ||
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
http://drop.sc/283823 This game was against a plat terran who basically let me macro away. I used my average PvT build: fast expand, 2 more gates + robo, robo bay+forge. Problems in this game and other PvTs: -I can survive the 10 minute medivac push, but attacks at the front with drops in the base still make me lose games, especially between 13-15 mins. Should I make cannons in the main after estabilishing the third? -I have no idea what's the required number of gates per base. I make 4 gates for when I'm on 2 bases, then add 2 more when I take my third. Should I stop making cannons in the main base and invest more in gateways? When is a good time to add more gates (per base)? -which is a good time to plant the third? 12mins? What about the second robo? -I have troubles getting maxed. A decent terran that attacks me after I saturate my third, will most likely win, since I have only around 150 supply. You can see in that replay too. -It seems like I get huge amounts of gas after the 10 minutes. Should I put my templar archives faster? When is a good time for that? http://drop.sc/283822 This is a game I played today on a gold/plat tournament and met a terran that kept harassing me. That harass coupled with my huge flaws made me unable to estabilish a decent army. Note that my twilight council was incredibly late, and the gasses at my third were empty for too many minutes. Still, even with those mistakes prevented, he was too good. Problems in this game: -his harassment made me forget macro completely; I really need solid advice as to the number of gates at certain times+the second robo. -should I make archons as soon as the templar archives is finished, or research storm and keep some templars for energy? -what static defense do I need to defend the multipronged attacks he did in that game? He sent 2 full medivacs in the natural, while going for the 3rd. 1 templar and a few cannons wont last long. Opinions? -Could anyone put a replay of a macro PvT colossus first games? I would love to analyze it. Basically, I would love if you great TLiquid posters would analyze those games and give me some answers to the questions I asked above and tips to the problems that you noticed. I put in italic the questions that I really need an answer for. Cheers! | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
This game was against a plat terran who basically let me macro away. I used my average PvT build: fast expand, 2 more gates + robo, robo bay+forge. If you get to "macro away" you want to go FE -> Robo -> +2 Gates. -I can survive the 10 minute medivac push, but attacks at the front with drops in the base still make me lose games, especially between 13-15 mins. Should I make cannons in the main after estabilishing the third? You need map control, I try to have a few Pylons on the map and 2-3 Observers. This way you will spot drops before they reach your base, making it possible to split the right amount of units and deal with the drops easily. -I have no idea what's the required number of gates per base. I make 4 gates for when I'm on 2 bases, then add 2 more when I take my third. Should I stop making cannons in the main base and invest more in gateways? When is a good time to add more gates (per base)? That one is tricky, it really depends on what else you got. In general I would say that you want a lot more gates. I usually get 5 on 2 and add 3-5 more when taking my third. This allows me to skip a few warpin cycles in order to tech faster and chrono upgrades, but once I see a move-out I will be able to get 16 more Units before the fight starts. -which is a good time to plant the third? 12mins? What about the second robo? I only get more Robos when I am maxed out, Templars are so much better. Your third base timing depends completely on the game. Usually you don't want to build it before Terran builds his. -I have troubles getting maxed. A decent terran that attacks me after I saturate my third, will most likely win, since I have only around 150 supply. You can see in that replay too. That is a big problem with Colossus style though. Terran will max when P is around 170ish and doesn't have storm. Terran a-moves, Protoss rages. However, once you do not skip workers and stop taking damage from drops this problem will work out itself to a certain extend. -It seems like I get huge amounts of gas after the 10 minutes. Should I put my templar archives faster? When is a good time for that? If you go for Zealots and single Robo you usually have enough gas for double upgrades and Charge around 10 minutes. Getting Templar this early only works out if you go for a single Colossus with no range. http://drop.sc/283822 This is a game I played today on a gold/plat tournament and met a terran that kept harassing me. That harass coupled with my huge flaws made me unable to estabilish a decent army. Note that my twilight council was incredibly late, and the gasses at my third were empty for too many minutes. Still, even with those mistakes prevented, he was too good. Problems in this game: -his harassment made me forget macro completely; I really need solid advice as to the number of gates at certain times+the second robo. 1 -> Expand -> +2 -> +2 -> Expand -> +3-5 If Terran only has a single eBay and a lot of Barracks and starts cutting SCVs you want more gates on 2 Bases. -should I make archons as soon as the templar archives is finished, or research storm and keep some templars for energy? What is the advantage of morphing Archons right away? You have them in case the fight starts without you realizing. If that ever happens you should work on map control rather than details like this. -what static defense do I need to defend the multipronged attacks he did in that game? He sent 2 full medivacs in the natural, while going for the 3rd. 1 templar and a few cannons wont last long. Opinions? 1 Templar and 2 Cannons should be enough actually. You need to feedback the Medivacs before they drop, usually one will die without dropping a single unit. The other one will drop around 4 units, your Cannons should be able to clean that up np IF you shiftclicked the Medivacs. -Could anyone put a replay of a macro PvT colossus first games? I would love to analyze it. IPL 5, Dreamhack and BWC replays are all available for everyone. Oh and by the way. This all sounds like you simply need to work on your mechanics. Rather then going for a well timed Templar transition and perfect Gateway timings you should try to just make Probes, not get supply blocked, Produce nothing but Zealots/Stalkers and Colossi from minute 8 onward and then Stomp Terran once you got 1-2 upgrades and are closed to max. It is really important to use simple strategies before your mechanics are really good. Trying to remember a complex build while scouting and struggling for map control will simply eat into your ability to watch the Minimap and Produce Probes/units/Pylons. Trust me, keep it simple. Once you got the mechanics down, (read: you got into Master using simple strategies) you can start worrying about more complex strats. | ||
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
One more thing: could you recommend me some replays from those tournaments? There were a lot of games played there, and I don't know which one would help me. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On December 13 2012 22:15 Kinon wrote: I don't really understand how to keep it simple. If i focus on building probes and some units, my tech will be too late, my upgrades the same. I guess I'll play some custom games to see how it goes. One more thing: could you recommend me some replays from those tournaments? There were a lot of games played there, and I don't know which one would help me. Well it really depends on what YOU want to play like. You can look into Cretor's play if you feel like double upgrades is your way (pretty hard to stay alive though). Parting and Rain are also always worth looking into. I don't know your goal, if you just want PvT to be a little more fun, just add the gates and try early DTs every now and again. If you want to improve (and I am pretty sure you do) you should really prioritize simplicity. General on the stop made up guidelines to PvT: 1 Gate Expand. add Robo +2 Gates get 3 sentries, 6 Stalkers and some (8ish) Zealots before 10 minutes. 1 Obs at your front, if you see lack of medivacs always watch the minimap. 1 Obs at his base to see move-out. Robo Bay around minute 8 + Forge + 2 Gates around minute 9 +1 Armor Half done, add Twilight. Take third when safe, add 5 Gates. against 2Base all-in get 6 Gates off of 2 Bases. +1Attack + 2 Armor 4-5 Colossi -> is go time. Just try to reach that as fast as possible. Should be around 14 minutes. Edit: Apollo made a vid. guide like half a year ago. It is pretty simple and might be just what you need! | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
All the games pan out the same way. Half his army his dropped into my main and half his army is stimming towards my third right at the timing where I try to establish. This always ends in a cancel on my third and a loss of tech in my main. I can't really place half of my army at one place and the other half at my third, then he can just take all of his army and crush my armies one at a time... The problem isn't that I don't seet the drops or attack, the problem is, when my units are there he already got the robo bay/main nexus/important tech and my units are far from third which makes it easy to snipe it. Game #1: Shakuras Plateau - http://drop.sc/284013 In this game, I send half my force to defend the drop and half to the third. I don't get there in time for any of them. Game #2: Entombed Valley - http://drop.sc/284017 I fuck up in the beginning which forces me to pull probes at his first push so okay, I was behind. Still, he does this 2 medivac in main while attacking the third and even though I pull main probes and warp in zealots before he even drops he manages to get my robo bay... I have like 5 - 6 replays of this exact scenario. It has dropped my pvt win rate from 55% down to about 30%... Any hints on what the best response to this is appreciated! I am high diamond, facing a couple of mid masters every once in a while. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Half his army his dropped into my main and half his army is stimming towards my third right at the timing where I try to establish. This is the most standard thing in the world. The answer is that you really do have to split your army, keeping enough in your main to prevent the drops. That can be 5 stalkers or 1 HT and 2 stalkers. Also, you might have to slow your third down a little more if you find you just can't hold it at that time. | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
On December 13 2012 23:46 kcdc wrote: This is the most standard thing in the world. The answer is that you really do have to split your army, keeping enough in your main to prevent the drops. That can be 5 stalkers or 1 HT and 2 stalkers. Also, you might have to slow your third down a little more if you find you just can't hold it at that time. But I can't just do it every game? Last game I had control over the watch towers and saw him approaching, however, he kills my units at the towers and scans for observers. I am now totally in the dark whether he will push up my main ramp with all his units, go for a doom drop or as they often do: 2 medivac drop with a push on my 3rd :/ | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 13 2012 23:41 NVRLand wrote: What is up with terrans nowadays? I can't seem to win a single game against them... All the games pan out the same way. Half his army his dropped into my main and half his army is stimming towards my third right at the timing where I try to establish. This always ends in a cancel on my third and a loss of tech in my main. I can't really place half of my army at one place and the other half at my third, then he can just take all of his army and crush my armies one at a time... The problem isn't that I don't seet the drops or attack, the problem is, when my units are there he already got the robo bay/main nexus/important tech and my units are far from third which makes it easy to snipe it. Game #1: Shakuras Plateau - http://drop.sc/284013 In this game, I send half my force to defend the drop and half to the third. I don't get there in time for any of them. Game #2: Entombed Valley - http://drop.sc/284017 I fuck up in the beginning which forces me to pull probes at his first push so okay, I was behind. Still, he does this 2 medivac in main while attacking the third and even though I pull main probes and warp in zealots before he even drops he manages to get my robo bay... I have like 5 - 6 replays of this exact scenario. It has dropped my pvt win rate from 55% down to about 30%... Any hints on what the best response to this is appreciated! I am high diamond, facing a couple of mid masters every once in a while. Generally ignoring other aspects of the games, you really need to pre-position units to deal with drops. In some cases defending a third in your position on Shakuras, or on a map like Daybreak, it's not even conceivable that you'd be able to maneuver into position in time without taking massive damage otherwise. Neither game really features the traditional 2 medivac timing either, which arrives as soon as 10:00 and probably would have been a little more devastating. As you break into masters it'll be the only build you fight for a long time. A few stalkers to focus down medivacs with zealots next to them so they cant be dropped upon is sufficient to stop a drop. Or a well placed cannon(s) with some zealots. With atleast two observers sighting the most vulnerable drop entrance in your main, and the path leading into your third. Your build should be able to allocate SOME kind of defense for a drop in your main by 10:00. Other things to note like in Shakuras, you took the far expansion rather than the expansion tucked between your main and your natural, which is infinitely easier to defend from multi-pronged pressure. In the event you do have to take a difficult third (i.e. Daybreak), your army needs to be positioned between the third/natural so you can react accordingly to which ever he decides to attack into when you know hes coming but don't know where (and in cases like this, an observer watching the path into your third is pretty mandatory). On December 13 2012 23:57 NVRLand wrote: But I can't just do it every game? Last game I had control over the watch towers and saw him approaching, however, he kills my units at the towers and scans for observers. I am now totally in the dark whether he will push up my main ramp with all his units, go for a doom drop or as they often do: 2 medivac drop with a push on my 3rd :/ Theres no choice. If you can't react immediately and perfectly to drops (which no one does), then you need to account for them or accept inevitable damage. Sentries + aoe like colossus or storm deal with medivacless bio very well. As long as you don't control horribly he can't break your natural or third, allowing you to allocate the units necessary to prevent a drop. If he doesn't drop at all and just sends everything into your third you can simply warp your reinforcements there instead of your main. At worst, you can embrace this as a crutch and continue with your progress in the match-up until your control gets better, and then gradually cut as many corners as you can until you reach a medium you're comfortable with. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 13 2012 23:57 NVRLand wrote: But I can't just do it every game? Last game I had control over the watch towers and saw him approaching, however, he kills my units at the towers and scans for observers. I am now totally in the dark whether he will push up my main ramp with all his units, go for a doom drop or as they often do: 2 medivac drop with a push on my 3rd :/ That's PvT. You're frequently going to be in the dark wondering where Terran might attack, and you'll take big damage if you don't have units there ahead of time. You just need to anticipate the drop timing and have units guarding the common drop angles. That means you'll have less to defend a direct attack up your ramp, so your control has to be good. It can be difficult, but this is why Terran always attacks at that timing. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Playing passive standard macro against phoenix macro openers is really difficult. I have ended up on both sides of this battle, and it almost always strongly favors the phoenix player. It basically just gives him complete map control for the entire game, which means he always gets complete scouting and thus can play greedier than you (earlier 3rd, chrono on probes while threatening 2 base all-in, etc.). Also, 8 blink stalkers is not really enough to defend against the harass, you'll have to commit more stalkers - which is a problem since stalkers are weaker in the standard composition of colossus/zealot/archon vs colossus/zealot/archon. So then you end up with both a weaker and smaller army and just get rolled over. I would recommend some sort of 2 base all-in, or if you're going to go for a macro game at least make a LOT of blink stalker at first to completely shut down the phoenix harass and take some map control back for yourself, and then use your own blink stalker to harass and allow yourself to get your 3rd faster. Regarding expanding, i do it when i see him making his robo, which means no all-in coming my way (at least for a very long while). | ||
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:43 Gumbi wrote: "Better" is entirely dependant on the risk you're willing to take on the map in question. It sounds like you're in the lower leagues. I would recommend another build other then the FFE (but posters don't like when I do that). Make your first Pylon in your main and do a 13 Forge. Then get a 17 Nexus (rally 17th Probe to nat). It's an extremely safe FFE. Im actually a high masters player, the real question is why does parting go for 16 nexus over a 17 nexus in pvz? He usually goes in base forge, but always gets the 16 nexus which is weird to me cause you have to halt chrono on probes, and sometimes stop probe production for a couple seconds, if you scout on 9. Also better is not even close to what you are saying. when going nexus first 16/17 are both equally risky. Also try and help people with their builds rather then just shut them down completely. People are more likely to try something new if its similar to what they are already doing. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On December 14 2012 09:04 jcroisdale wrote: Im actually a high masters player, the real question is why does parting go for 16 nexus over a 17 nexus in pvz? He usually goes in base forge, but always gets the 16 nexus which is weird to me cause you have to halt chrono on probes, and sometimes stop probe production for a couple seconds, if you scout on 9. Also better is not even close to what you are saying. when going nexus first 16/17 are both equally risky. Also try and help people with their builds rather then just shut them down completely. People are more likely to try something new if its similar to what they are already doing. Perhaps his reasoning is such that if he is hit with a 6-9 pool or a 10-11 pool or a 12+ pool he can react differently than if he 17 nexus? those extra 50 minerals is a sooner forge, and a sooner cannon to defend either the nat or the main depending on the pool timing. I haven't looked much into this but I would assume this is the reason he does 16 nex alongside a forge in main. And to be fair, based on your initial question you didn't provide much room for discussion so its fair that Gumbi made an assumption that you aren't high masters since this is the kind of question a lot of lower level people post in this thread quite often | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
If it's 16 nexus, 17 forge, that's probably the more economical option--we can trust that Parting's done his homework. One thing to remember, however, is that Parting often goes for an in-base pylon and doesn't scout, so that might affect the math. He gets more mining time than a player that makes a pylon at his natural, and he gets much more mining time than a player that scouts at 9 supply. So his 16 nexus might require less (or no) probe cutting compared to what most players do. | ||
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GaliX
Germany380 Posts
I am middl. / high Master Protoss player. But I am still struggling a lot against Zerg... I have no idea how to beat a good Zergplayer on some maps. Here is a replay as an example: http://db.tt/Ul5AosIB even thought: My opening with the two zelots and stalker did quite good as usual. Plus my Stargate follow up did also quite high dmg to the Zerg. okay I overmade some Phoenix but they did their Job. I even tried to harras with warp prims. What went wrong? I dont know how to beat a good Zerg player in the late game. Even If I trade well and we are on equal bases as in the replay the second or third wave of roach ling overruns me. I feel like I am at the limit of what I am able to do against zerg. One small misstake and its totaly over. While the Zerg player just can lose ton of shit and still overrun me as easy as always. ----I need some suggestions. Even the last Tournements didnt show any good way to beat a zerg beside the Immortal all-in and all the variation of warpgate all in. Which I find boring and dont use. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379300 For a long time, I always lost PvZ and I thought the match-up was ridiculously broken such that Protoss loses with one tiny mistake. With the build I linked above, I almost never lose to Zergs at my level. Also, add a SG for 5 phoenixes at 12 minutes, and use them to support your push as discussed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387720 It's an easy, fun style that seems to always win. It's also much more forgiving of mistakes than standard play. I've picked up a bunch of little tricks to make it more effective, so don't hesitate to ask questions if you have any trouble. | ||
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Chylith
Canada167 Posts
On December 14 2012 10:51 kcdc wrote: Does he do 16 nexus, 16 forge or 16 nexus, 17 forge? If it's 16 nexus, 17 forge, that's probably the more economical option--we can trust that Parting's done his homework. One thing to remember, however, is that Parting often goes for an in-base pylon and doesn't scout, so that might affect the math. He gets more mining time than a player that makes a pylon at his natural, and he gets much more mining time than a player that scouts at 9 supply. So his 16 nexus might require less (or no) probe cutting compared to what most players do. This is pretty much dead on. Parting does 16 nexus 17 forge, he also almost never scouts until after his forge is started. That + the in-base forge and pylon allows him to put the nexus on 16 while still chronoing probes without any cuts. If you go for a 9 scout or place your forge + pylon on low ground you won't have enough minerals to do that and you'll have to 17 nexus. | ||
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