On December 08 2012 13:07 probeater wrote: i have some general questions about pvp, as i currently don't exactly know what i'm doing 1) let's say im doing a blink build; is it better to get a fast robo as well for observer and in case of DTs (how often will there be Dt's anyway) 2) if i don't get a fastish robo does it allow my blink play to be strong enough to outright win or just put pressure to get my own expo up and delay his? 3) is there a rule of thumb for when i should put down my robo bay/forge(s) 4) should i get a warp prism before or after immortals?
im just trying to understand the match-up better
1+2) The idea of going blink before robo with blink obs is that you can hit at the same timing as with a blink all-in, with less stalkes but an observer. A well timed build will complete Blink when an observer is about haflway through the map. This allows you to outmanouver and harass a fast expanding player, and sometimes even killing them ourtright eventually (PartinG vs Rain from WCS KR)
Back in the day people used to go Robo before Blink, which is safer but it can't really abuse fast expansions (which is why Monk in his PvP build comparison thread from back than posted that Immortal expand is safe vs Blink/obs).
3) Ideally after both players expand and you realize you can't get really do much more damage with your stalkers. Keep an active group of 12-15 of them out for map control and still look for openings, but begin teching up. Your forge should go down either with the support bay, or slightly after.
4) In a robo expand mirror (or against a fast expand), you want to build 2 immortals and then a warp prism. Get speed before range obviously. Against a Blink or Phoenix opening, don't go speed prism, it's really easy to snipe for your opponent.
couple more questions: 1.if i'm doing blink obs should i constantly produce probes only when i decide to expand or is it just good to keep it going while i harass, etc. anyway?
2.does it make a difference if i open 3 stalkers-->blink rather than 1gate-->add 2 gates at the same time?
Kinda depends. Mostly people afaik will cut probes to maximize their unit count for the first few pokes with stalkers, and then start them again when they decide to expand.
On December 09 2012 02:10 Siipher wrote: How can I defend mutli-pronged attacks from Terran? If Terran decides to this I instantly lose the game guaranteed, even if he is a couple of leagues behind myself.
What happens is I'm ready for one of the attacks but then realize there's an attack at my nat and a drop at my main or whatever. I try to warp in at my main and it will probably barely kill a marine cause of positioning. I pull probes while he kills off my bay/forges/archive. I try to kill the attack at my nat but he loads up and leaves as a kill maybe one medivac if he messes up. I scramble to my main and try to stop it and kill as much as I can but usually he loads up and leaves relatively unharmed.
Now I try to recover and hope he doesn't drop again. I'm behind in tech, economy, and probably army at this point. One of a few things happen. I push, I don't have enough tech units. He pushes, I'm still trying to recover and lose. He drops again, I'm even more behind. It seems pretty impossible to defend this efficiently and end up ahead.
Map awareness. If you are playing against standard 1 rax FE or CC first builds, you need to start worrying about medivac drops from 10:00 onwards. You need to position proxy pylons on the sides of the maps to catch medivacs, and observers at likely medivac paths. Control watch towers and always know where his army is with observers or forward units. Always have a group of 6 stalkers in your main (2 shot medivacs) ready to intercept drops.
Ultimately, with experience you'll learn to count his army size and realize if he is missing units or not and then be able to split your army if he is going heavy drop play and not just 1 or 2 medivac harass.
In the late game, you want 2 cannons and a templar at every mining base. That along with a round of charge zealots should clear any drop play. Dark templar play is also good at stopping drops.
I mostly agree with this, but 6 stalkers is the main isn't a solution in every situation. With some builds without blink, having 6 stalkers in your main can get you killed. On Anitga in particular, it's hard to make that stalker defense work because Terran can threaten your natural, drop behind the fog, and support their drops from the low ground all at the same time. Antiga is a nightmare for drop defense honestly. I just veto it, but if you want to play it, I'd recommend tailoring a map-specific build with early blink.
If you open fast templar, you can usually get away with 2 stalkers and a templar in your main (instead of 6 stalkers) to defend drops.
Mostly tho, it sounds like your problem is that you aren't anticipating that Terran will go for multi-pronged attacks. You need to expect Terran to attack in 2 or 3 spots at once and have units in position ahead of time. If you're chasing the drops after they've unloaded, you're playing a losing game.
Recently I have seen Naniwa use a cool gateway pressure build with no walloff, where he does a quick 6:50 pressure - 7 min pressure that is NOT a gateway-nexus expand which owns zergs really badly as they never really see it coming. He then transitions into robo, double forge and during the pressure builds up a lot of gas for tech. He used this vs AReS (GM zerg) on the EU server during one of his streams which I believe was yesterday... The game was on Antiga Shipyard. If anyone saw or knows of such a game... help please? =]
I thought the strategy was really neat and stuff so I was wondering if there are any VODs or replays of something very similar on high master/GM level preferably =].
(This is one of my first posts... plz correct me if I did something wrong =])
On December 09 2012 14:59 shucknjivee wrote: Hey guys.
Recently I have seen Naniwa use a cool gateway pressure build with no walloff, where he does a quick 6:50 pressure - 7 min pressure that is NOT a gateway-nexus expand which owns zergs really badly as they never really see it coming. He then transitions into robo, double forge and during the pressure builds up a lot of gas for tech. He used this vs AReS (GM zerg) on the EU server during one of his streams which I believe was yesterday... The game was on Antiga Shipyard. If anyone saw or knows of such a game... help please? =]
I thought the strategy was really neat and stuff so I was wondering if there are any VODs or replays of something very similar on high master/GM level preferably =].
(This is one of my first posts... plz correct me if I did something wrong =])
There are many ways to open up. Some are safer, some are more economical, some pressure harder. Naniwa's way abuses the metagame slightly, so some random crap that n00bs do on ladder can put you into trouble, but I will write his build order nonetheless since it seems to be the one you are interested in. (I'm grandmaster protoss, open this way most all of my PvZ's)
9pylon 13gate 15gas 16pylon 18core (3 chrono's on nexus total) 20nexus 20warpgate (chrono 1-4 times, I think he does it three times most of the time) 20stalker (chrono) 2nd stalker when first one is done 3 gates when you have 450 minerals (slightly cut probes if you have to build them more quickly to meet fast warpgate timing due to many chrono's, otherwise use chrono's on probes instead and keep making probes nonostop, depends on what version you want to do) proxy pylon, warpin, etc
Scout after you make your gateway if you don't know how to stop a 6pool with probes without scouting, otherwise scout after core to see when they get gas. Get a 2nd gas and start a walloff while your pressure is going on. You can take guys off of gas after mining enough for 1 stalker and warpgate then go up to 6gates to do a pure zealot all-in version of this if you want free wins.
I'm plat Protoss and I have several questions about PvP. I'm currently playing Hero's stargate build. If I'm not expecting 4gate, when should i expand? I usually expand after first phoenix scout. When it comes to mid game when should i take 3rd and 4th gas, build additional gateways, forges, TC for charge and start collosus tech/build 2nd robo? And what is the standard timig for 3rd base? Thanks for answers and sorry for my bad English.
On December 09 2012 21:13 Eldin wrote: I'm plat Protoss and I have several questions about PvP. I'm currently playing Hero's stargate build. If I'm not expecting 4gate, when should i expand? I usually expand after first phoenix scout. When it comes to mid game when should i take 3rd and 4th gas, build additional gateways, forges, TC for charge and start collosus tech/build 2nd robo? And what is the standard timig for 3rd base? Thanks for answers and sorry for my bad English.
Hey, expo timing is an important question in PvP and really depends on what your opponent is doing.
Hey fellow protosses, I'm trying to get into masters but one of the many things holding me back is my total inability to hold a proxy 2gate zealot attack in PvP and a marine/scv all-in in PvT. I've literally never been able to hold either, regardless of how I scout. I always scout the 2gate in time, but my reaction never seems correct - I can't chrono out enough zealots against someone who does it correctly, and getting a forge+cannon just seems too slow. I know this is addressed in the OP, but does anyone have access to any VODs of holding this off correctly? I'm just so hopeless at holding this off that I have to be doing something terribly wrong.
Hey Guys, i am a High Diamond Protoss Player (EU) and i have no Problems with Master Zergs, or Master Terrans. Only PvP sucks so hard. I don't like Makro Games in PvP. I am searching for a 1 or 2 Base All in. Please no 4 Gate, most people know how to counter it. Please help me :-*
SpacemanG; try to upload some replays of you losing to said cheese; it will make it easier to give you direct feedback. That being said, here are some general tutorials on holding either of these cheeses:
I don't have any VODs or replays for you at the moment, but I can say that the key to holding both rushes is staying calm, controlling well, and being patient.
Proxy 2-gate:
The OP's correct that the best way to hold is scouting it early and making zealots. But it's not that simple--your gateways will be slightly behind his, so he'll have windows where he has more zealots than you, and he can kill pylons or gates or probes or whatever. And while you have workers nearby to help in fights, they're a micro liability because he can rally zealots into your mineral line which often kills workers and forces micro mistakes.
I think the most sure-fire way to defend proxy 2 gate is to go for a quick 3 gates, and keep your zealots patiently defending your mineral line until you have more zealots than he does. Don't chase him, don't try to hit buildings, don't get fancy. Just triple produce zealots, keep your mineral line safe, then kill the threat. After you shut down his proxy force, you want to counter-attack, but be wary of zealots slipping into your mineral line while you're away from home. You might want to keep at least one zealot home for this purpose.
Marine-SCV all-in:
Scouting this early isn't important--and it usually isn't possible. You just want to know it's on the way by the time it hits the middle of the map. Once you see the SCV train heading your way, cancel your building nexus, wall off the top of your ramp, and chronoboost stalkers. Forcefielding your ramp will sound tempting, but trust me, you don't want to build sentries. You'll pick off the majority of their army with your stalkers before they break through your wall. From there, just micro your stalkers against the remaining marines and it should be an easy win.
Vs marine scv all-ins, a really nice trick to hold them off ridicolously easily is just to put your third pylon next to your ramp and if you see the all-in coming just wall off with 2 extra gates, chrono stalkers and lol at him. I got this from kcdc and haven't lost to that rush ever since, it's hilarious.
Forge is a good emergency measure, but the trouble with forge is that you're not actually ahead afterwards. If you go for forge after cyber core, you lose a bunch of probes to zealots before your cannon(s) finish. If you go for forge becore cyber core, your opponent gets stalkers just as fast or faster than you do. You're basically even in the game even tho you eventually get to kill his proxy buildings.
I'm not sure when the best time for the 3rd gate is. I think it's either before your second pylon or right after.
The other, easiest way to beat proxy is if you scout it right away (before the 2nd gate is started), pull probes and kill the gate. Make sure to target the one that was started first. This technique is a little riskier because you'll be very low on income with so many probes fighting and if you fail to kill the proxy before zealots hit the map, you're dead. Still, if you catch it very early and there's a good amount of surface area, this is the most idiot-proof method for victory because there's no risk for screwing up your micro.
Tip: if his zealot is about to pop, make sure you have 100% of the surface area on the gateway covered. Depending on the positioning of the gateway, this often forces his zealot to pop out behind his gateway which guarantees the gateway kill and an easy surround on his zealot.
I want to chime in on the proxy gate defense discussion.
If you decide you want to open with a fast 4 gate (10 gate) or an 11 gate 3 gate pressure in PvP you won't scout until well after the gateway is down. In these cases, where you scout late the best thing you can do is put down a forge and cannon to protect the mineral line and the cybernetics core.
Stop mining gas until you secure your base vs the ever growing number of zealots and always make zealots and add gates whenever you can.
The above responses are very good if you scout before core but if you scout after core and significant amounts of gas are mined you can't rely on cancelling the core and making late extra gates. In this scenario you pull off gas to get more minerals for cannon defense and try to proxy a pylon to later warp in at. Scouting early is always better but if you choose an early gate (before 12) with the intention of fast warpgate as an opening and delay scouting as a result the forge is needed and hiding a proxy pylon to counter is the best thing you can do.
Cancelling the core for more gates will not win you the game. Cancelling a gas geyser can help a lot though so if the gas is not done cancel it and do as kcdc says, move up to 3 gates when affordable while making more zealots focusing on defending the mineral line.
In all cases however, having a good sim city with no easily snipeable pylons is very important. I put my first pylon to the side of my nexus so that I can wall in and reduce the amount of space for zealots to walk into my mineral line.I can post some screen shots later when I get home from work
Thanks guys for the responses, and I really appreciate those VODs. I'll go for the 3 gateway defense, which I thought was correct, until my higher league friends told me I was crazy -___- . And I like the idea of third pylon by the ramp against terran for a potential wall - that will help. You guys are great!
What's everyone's thoughts on the best amount of phoenix to open with in PvZ when going for stargate into robo standard macro play? It seems like the damage from phoenix always is based on the initial damage, once they get spores up and go hydra/infestor you are basically done killing queens, drones, ovies. If I can hide the stargate, I like to go 5 phoenix and sometimes I can do massive damage. However, I see most people go for only 3 often, as it seems safer and easier to start building the robo units you will probably need.
On December 11 2012 12:32 -YoricK- wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on the best amount of phoenix to open with in PvZ when going for stargate into robo standard macro play? It seems like the damage from phoenix always is based on the initial damage, once they get spores up and go hydra/infestor you are basically done killing queens, drones, ovies. If I can hide the stargate, I like to go 5 phoenix and sometimes I can do massive damage. However, I see most people go for only 3 often, as it seems safer and easier to start building the robo units you will probably need.
Opening stargate in PvZ has ups and downs like every other opening in the world and there are nuances as well.
I personally really like Stargate openings as part of a strong safe macro play. Now, keep in mind this macro play will involve taking a slightly later third than a straight robo opening.
Stargate lets you gain map control since you can deny overlord scouting (the most effective zerg scouting) and pick up the single lings that are often at a watch tower. You can't move out so you don't have map control in that sense, but you do have vision control which allows you to move units on the map if you are planning on being aggressive and you can make the decision of droning harder on the zerg.
The number of air units you make will differ based on your follow up and your plan for the units you are making. Some players will make a void ray to help deny a fast fourth or to try and do some serious damage with the void ray and 4 pheonix. Alternatively, there is a 3 void ray into 7 gate timing attack as well. Void rays along side an observer also allows you to deny some creep spread.
More commonly, now we see people skipping the void ray and instead making phoenixes alone. You make three phoenixes when the goal is to scout, force some anti air, kill overlords on the map and MAYBE get some drones. You can't reliably kill queens with three pheonixes because the DPS from two shooting phoenixes means you need to waste two lifts on the queen to kill it and more often than not a second or third queen will come and make it hard for the phoenixes to kill the initial queen without a lot of damage. (I hope this made sense)
More commonly you will see players hide and deny scouting in order to get five phoenixes made and delay their own scouting in order to suprise a zerg with five phoenixes. Having five of them allows you to kill a queen with a single lift, force spores, kill some drones, kill overlords (faster than with three) and fight off an initial wave of mutalisks about 10 or less in the case of a 2 or 3 base spire rush (if you can't kill them because zerg keeps them home for example, you will buy a LOT of time to get proper defenses and not commit to high tech robo units).
I feel like 5 phoenixes is the best number to have if you plan on opening stargate and are comfortable that you are better than your opponent. In the right hands five phoenix can do a lot of damage even to a zerg with a couple spore crawlers since if the spore is in a poor position you can find an opening and do damage.
To add in, 4 phoenixes are enough to kill a queen with 1 lift. So If you plan to build phoenixes, I'd go with the minimum 4. If you've already invested in 3, you might as well get the fourth to have the option to take out stray queens.
On December 09 2012 02:10 Siipher wrote: How can I defend mutli-pronged attacks from Terran? If Terran decides to this I instantly lose the game guaranteed, even if he is a couple of leagues behind myself.
What happens is I'm ready for one of the attacks but then realize there's an attack at my nat and a drop at my main or whatever. I try to warp in at my main and it will probably barely kill a marine cause of positioning. I pull probes while he kills off my bay/forges/archive. I try to kill the attack at my nat but he loads up and leaves as a kill maybe one medivac if he messes up. I scramble to my main and try to stop it and kill as much as I can but usually he loads up and leaves relatively unharmed.
Now I try to recover and hope he doesn't drop again. I'm behind in tech, economy, and probably army at this point. One of a few things happen. I push, I don't have enough tech units. He pushes, I'm still trying to recover and lose. He drops again, I'm even more behind. It seems pretty impossible to defend this efficiently and end up ahead.
Map awareness. If you are playing against standard 1 rax FE or CC first builds, you need to start worrying about medivac drops from 10:00 onwards. You need to position proxy pylons on the sides of the maps to catch medivacs, and observers at likely medivac paths. Control watch towers and always know where his army is with observers or forward units. Always have a group of 6 stalkers in your main (2 shot medivacs) ready to intercept drops.
Ultimately, with experience you'll learn to count his army size and realize if he is missing units or not and then be able to split your army if he is going heavy drop play and not just 1 or 2 medivac harass.
In the late game, you want 2 cannons and a templar at every mining base. That along with a round of charge zealots should clear any drop play. Dark templar play is also good at stopping drops.
in the mid game prior to vikings (lets say terran is pushing with first 2-4 medivacs) its very common and safe to leave 4-6 stalkers in the main base to intercept drops while having your zealot sentry + immortal/colo army at the front. Especially once you have a colossus out, good forcefields will alow you to defend almost any push prior to vikings so you will be safe leaving a handful of stalkers in your main to deter the drops.
On December 11 2012 12:32 -YoricK- wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on the best amount of phoenix to open with in PvZ when going for stargate into robo standard macro play? It seems like the damage from phoenix always is based on the initial damage, once they get spores up and go hydra/infestor you are basically done killing queens, drones, ovies. If I can hide the stargate, I like to go 5 phoenix and sometimes I can do massive damage. However, I see most people go for only 3 often, as it seems safer and easier to start building the robo units you will probably need.
obviously 4 is the magic number since it allows you to kill a queen or a roach in one lift. personally i like to go with 5 (although i move out with 4 and rally the 5th phoenix) since there is a small chance i might lose one. depending on your skill level (and by this i mean, some players might be less secure with less sentries), you will see alot of higher level players skip out on sentries in order to reach their later game tech paths quicker. Pro players will usually only build 2-3 tops when going for a stargate - robo transition.
A high zealot count + engaging in chokes will easily allow you to defend against zergling agression, while your stargate units (those 5 phoenix) will allow you to lift and severely lower the roach count before he even gets to your base.
EPT
