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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On December 11 2012 09:41 kcdc wrote:
Forge is a good emergency measure, but the trouble with forge is that you're not actually ahead afterwards. If you go for forge after cyber core, you lose a bunch of probes to zealots before your cannon(s) finish. If you go for forge becore cyber core, your opponent gets stalkers just as fast or faster than you do. You're basically even in the game even tho you eventually get to kill his proxy buildings.
I'm not sure when the best time for the 3rd gate is. I think it's either before your second pylon or right after.
The other, easiest way to beat proxy is if you scout it right away (before the 2nd gate is started), pull probes and kill the gate. Make sure to target the one that was started first. This technique is a little riskier because you'll be very low on income with so many probes fighting and if you fail to kill the proxy before zealots hit the map, you're dead. Still, if you catch it very early and there's a good amount of surface area, this is the most idiot-proof method for victory because there's no risk for screwing up your micro.
Tip: if his zealot is about to pop, make sure you have 100% of the surface area on the gateway covered. Depending on the positioning of the gateway, this often forces his zealot to pop out behind his gateway which guarantees the gateway kill and an easy surround on his zealot.
On December 11 2012 08:50 kcdc wrote:
I don't have any VODs or replays for you at the moment, but I can say that the key to holding both rushes is staying calm, controlling well, and being patient.
Proxy 2-gate:
The OP's correct that the best way to hold is scouting it early and making zealots. But it's not that simple--your gateways will be slightly behind his, so he'll have windows where he has more zealots than you, and he can kill pylons or gates or probes or whatever. And while you have workers nearby to help in fights, they're a micro liability because he can rally zealots into your mineral line which often kills workers and forces micro mistakes.
I think the most sure-fire way to defend proxy 2 gate is to go for a quick 3 gates, and keep your zealots patiently defending your mineral line until you have more zealots than he does. Don't chase him, don't try to hit buildings, don't get fancy. Just triple produce zealots, keep your mineral line safe, then kill the threat. After you shut down his proxy force, you want to counter-attack, but be wary of zealots slipping into your mineral line while you're away from home. You might want to keep at least one zealot home for this purpose.
I think the best way to defend a proxy gate is really dependent on the skill level of the player and how soon they scout it as well as the location of the proxy gates.
If you scout the proxy gates immediately (lets say you drop a 12 gate without scouting and you check your base for proxies and bam, 2 gateways just started on the edge of your base on cloud) then a 12 gate - 13 gate can be sufficient to defend it along with pulling maybe 3-4 probes.
However I feel as if once you get to a certain point (again, we are assuming the proxy is inside your base) then you simply wont be able to defend against the zealots (lets say once you pass 14 - 16 supply) unless you have this ungodly (think huk or hero) micro that is significantly better than your opp. It is in this situation i would reccomend dropping a forge and building 1-2 cannons in your mineral line. A good way to not fall behind and lose to stalkers is to rally zealots to your opponents base once your cannons are up and you are safe from aggression (its also important to scout the proxy gates as some P's will cancel a gateway upon seeing an early forge) rallying zealots will force him to pull his own zealots back to defend since he does not have anything at home. This should buy you time to get your core and stalkers out to beat his.
If the proxy gates are outside your base and you are scouting around for them (again lets say you find them 14-15 supply) then again you can defend just fine by adding additional gateways of yourself and out-produce him in zealots.
however you also have the option ( and this works blindly unless you go for a 13 gate - 3 stalker rush build) of just going along your normal build path (zealot then stalker) and chrono boosting out stalkers as best you can while stalling for time with your zealot/probes. Once you get 3 stalkers out (anymore than this is just bonus and makes it easy) you can easily just stroll to your opp. base and kill his probes with your stalkers while base trading (MAKE SURE YOU HAVE MONEY TO BUILD ASSIMS!!!!) *this is the sole reason why you absolutely never see proxies outside of the main base in pro level pvp, its just too easy to defend*
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Is there any strong push against a hellion/marine/medivac opener off 2 base?
I faced that opener on ladder yesterday, reacted properly and lost only around 4 probes with a 1 gate robo FE. His expansion was pretty late compared to mine (I built my Nexus around 5:20, he built his CC at around 7).
First I wanted to all-in him with 3 Colossi but I wasn't sure if this is a good reaction. I looked at the replay and I think, it could have killed him with ease. Anway, I lost the game because I went to the lategame and had some bad engagements.
But I want to punish those 1 base pushes in PvT like 2 rax pressure or hellion/marine/medivac after defending it.
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On December 11 2012 19:59 Bahajinbo wrote:
Is there any strong push against a hellion/marine/medivac opener off 2 base?
I faced that opener on ladder yesterday, reacted properly and lost only around 4 probes with a 1 gate robo FE. His expansion was pretty late compared to mine (I built my Nexus around 5:20, he built his CC at around 7).
First I wanted to all-in him with 3 Colossi but I wasn't sure if this is a good reaction. I looked at the replay and I think, it could have killed him with ease. Anway, I lost the game because I went to the lategame and had some bad engagements.
But I want to punish those 1 base pushes in PvT like 2 rax pressure or hellion/marine/medivac after defending it.
if a terran goes for a 1 base build and deals 0 damage, assuming they try to macro and are not following up with yet another all-in, you can practically hit them with any 2 base protoss timing and they should die.
specifically against marine hellion medivac, yeah, colossus push with stalkers wouldnt have even required micro on your part.
but its hard to say just how far ahead you were without seeing the replay.
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On December 11 2012 21:23 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 19:59 Bahajinbo wrote:
Is there any strong push against a hellion/marine/medivac opener off 2 base?
I faced that opener on ladder yesterday, reacted properly and lost only around 4 probes with a 1 gate robo FE. His expansion was pretty late compared to mine (I built my Nexus around 5:20, he built his CC at around 7).
First I wanted to all-in him with 3 Colossi but I wasn't sure if this is a good reaction. I looked at the replay and I think, it could have killed him with ease. Anway, I lost the game because I went to the lategame and had some bad engagements.
But I want to punish those 1 base pushes in PvT like 2 rax pressure or hellion/marine/medivac after defending it. if a terran goes for a 1 base build and deals 0 damage, assuming they try to macro and are not following up with yet another all-in, you can practically hit them with any 2 base protoss timing and they should die. specifically against marine hellion medivac, yeah, colossus push with stalkers wouldnt have even required micro on your part. but its hard to say just how far ahead you were without seeing the replay.
I'm at the university right now but after seeing the replay yesterday I also think a 2 base colossus timing is the right answer. I will try this in future games.
Is this also viable against 2 rax pressure which deals not that much damage? I mean, with a 2 rax you have marauders in the mix early on which are pretty good against colossi and stalkers.
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I'm sorry, couldn't find this with the search function:
Looking for a blink stalker PvP build which Nani uses a lot (20 drones, 2 drones in each gas). Can anybody help?
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whats the difference between hotkeying nexus seperately and and camera hotkeys? wouldnt seperate nexus be the same as camera hotkeys?
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No, they're different functions. Control hotkeys change what you have selected while camera hotkeys change where you're looking. So double-tapping a control group mapped to your nexus will produce different resutls than hitting a camera hotkey centered on your nexus. For example, if you want to move a unit from across the map to your nexus, you could select the unit, tap yoru camera hotkey, and right click your nexus because your unit is still selected. If you instead double-tapped your control group key, you'd lose selection of the unit, so it wouldn't work. You'd instead have to select the unit, move the camera with your mouse, and then click the nexus.
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no i know what it does, i think i misworded that. I'm used to hotkeying my nexus seperately, but most people are saying camera hotkeys are better. I had main nex at 5, nat at 6 and 3rd at f3, so that would basically act as my "camera hotkeys." Is it better to use camera hotkeys like f1-5 instead?
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On December 12 2012 09:20 freizya wrote:
no i know what it does, i think i misworded that. I'm used to hotkeying my nexus seperately, but most people are saying camera hotkeys are better. I had main nex at 5, nat at 6 and 3rd at f3, so that would basically act as my "camera hotkeys." Is it better to use camera hotkeys like f1-5 instead?
Functionally, difference is that you can use one hotkey for all of your nexi if you use camera keys to tab between base cameras, making it easier to chronoboost and make probes, which frees up just a little more APM to use elsewhere. In your setup you'd just use 5 for all of your nexi and F5-FX for which ever amount of bases you prefer to hotkey to camera (I say F5-FX and not F1-FX cause iunno if you removed the F1-F4 hotkeys which are by default hotkeyed to heroes in the campaign).
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i dont play campaign. i think f1-5 is easier to reach. is the only difference the ability to have room to hotkey more things? i see parting used seperate nexus hotkeys
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On December 12 2012 09:29 freizya wrote:
i dont play campaign. i think f1-5 is easier to reach. is the only difference the ability to have room to hotkey more things? i see parting used seperate nexus hotkeys
It's entirely preference. Camera hotkeys are slightly more efficient in that it's less clicks when you make probes and chronoboost off of a single hotkey, and of course it frees up other hotkeys if you need more hotkeys. Obviously, it's only efficient if you're well adjusted to and prefer it. The differences are fairly miniscule.
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There is a third option. You can use backspace (which you can remap to space bar) to jump between nexi.
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On December 12 2012 03:26 bretfart wrote:
I'm sorry, couldn't find this with the search function:
Looking for a blink stalker PvP build which Nani uses a lot (20 drones, 2 drones in each gas). Can anybody help?
Nobody knows the answer?
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United States8476 Posts
On December 12 2012 16:49 bretfart wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:26 bretfart wrote:
I'm sorry, couldn't find this with the search function:
Looking for a blink stalker PvP build which Nani uses a lot (20 drones, 2 drones in each gas). Can anybody help? Nobody knows the answer?
You have to be way way more specific. 2 probes in each gas is a fairly standard opening these days and can transition into many types of builds and even many types of blink stalker builds. Tbh, your best hope is go to go TLPD and look through all of Naniwa's games. I guarantee you the exact BO you're looking for is not anywhere on TL.
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What is the best response to Muta-ling. You can't expand or move out on the map, so what do you do?
User was warned for this post
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So, I read everything on the internet about how to play against Mutas. I still lose almost every single game against them...
I invested about a week to find my style and train the builds and I am winning a ton since then, today I cracked the 1k points on europe master. (from like 730 3 days ago)
So I know how to play the game, I position Cannons correctly, I don't let Zerglings come in etc etc etc. But every time Mutas kill me or buy enough time for BL/Infestor.
So here is how it usually goes:
Zerg takes some damage from my early +1Zealot Warp Prism stuff.
Zerg gets and shows Roaches
Zerg kills my Observer with Overseer and Queens.
Zerg flys in my main with Mutas around 11-12 Minutes while I take my third.
I lose some Probes but defend reasonable.
I tech to storm if Zerg adds more Mutas (they always do)
I keep my third while still losing Probes and Pylons/Cannons.
I move out after I feel like the Mutas cannot kill my base (4-6 Cannons and a HT at main and third)
I die to either mass Roach Infestor/Ling Infestor or Broodlords. (Depending on how many Mutas Zerg made -> how long my attack was delayed)
I know it is recommended to take a fourth but I find that impossible to do. If Zerg is not completely retarded he will take little damage from Storms. Since 4 Cannons lose to 8 Mutas those things don't seem like the optimal choice either...
Taking a fourth means that Zerg will suicide all his Mutas to kill at least one Mineral Line and some tech.
My counter attack then runs into Broodlords.
All the Pro games I found were terrible. Zerg takes the closest base to Protoss as fourth and keeps suiciding units in hopes to save it...
In all Pro games Zergs try as hard as humanly possible to throw the game and most of the time barely succed
I know I play bad against Mutas and sometimes take damage when I shouldn't but that is only because I don't know what to do.
The games I defend perfectly and take no damage at all I still run against a 5 Base maxed BL/Iinfestor Zerg. . .
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Havoc, you should upload some replays. It sounds like you're doing big-picture stuff right, but you're coming up just short of the victory line because you're making smaller mistakes. I suck really hard against mutas too, so I'm sure I'd learn from the exercise as well.
But if you are frustrated, you could always change your approach. I suck with standard blink stalker defense and run into all the same problems you have, so I changed things up. Basically, instead of trying to defend, I usually 3-base warpgate all-in as soon as I see his spire. You say your obs gets picked off, but you should have multiple observers. Also, Zerg expending effort to kill observers often suggests mutas on ladder.
Another option is reactive double SG phoenix. You can do this only if you already have 3 bases and have scouted his spire very early. But it shuts down the mutas really hard. The only problem is that your ground army sucks more than you expect it to, and you really shouldn't expect to be able to roll him over even after you kill 15 mutas for free.
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So is 17 or 16 nexus better in ovz?
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On December 13 2012 16:13 jcroisdale wrote:
So is 17 or 16 nexus better in ovz?
"Better" is entirely dependant on the risk you're willing to take on the map in question. It sounds like you're in the lower leagues. I would recommend another build other then the FFE (but posters don't like when I do that). Make your first Pylon in your main and do a 13 Forge. Then get a 17 Nexus (rally 17th Probe to nat). It's an extremely safe FFE.
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EPT
