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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
On December 07 2012 15:08 freizya wrote: hey does anyone have a 3 gate blink obs bo? cant seem to find one exactly. mainly wanting to know when to take second gas Assuming pvp take it before you build a zealot or before your second gate if your going 3stalker. | ||
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 08 2012 00:17 Kinon wrote: I've had some pretty big problems with blink plays lately, and I always seem to end up way too far behind in upgrades and tech. Here is a replay: http://drop.sc/282453 Cloud Kingdom is one of the best blink maps in the pool. It'd be a really good habit to start by making sure you have nothing vital (such as the robo) built near the perimeter where it's within range to be blunk upon before you can react accordingly: on all maps, regardless of what your opponent opens. Other things include the fact you cut probes while he continued to make them, you weren't ideally positioned to defend the natural -- partly because your observer was always with your army, etc. Losing the Robo/Nexus were the main reasons though, and that's simply because of the map/less than ideal positioning & control. | ||
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probeater
124 Posts
1) let's say im doing a blink build; is it better to get a fast robo as well for observer and in case of DTs (how often will there be Dt's anyway) 2) if i don't get a fastish robo does it allow my blink play to be strong enough to outright win or just put pressure to get my own expo up and delay his? 3) is there a rule of thumb for when i should put down my robo bay/forge(s) 4) should i get a warp prism before or after immortals? im just trying to understand the match-up better | ||
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Abusion
United Kingdom184 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:07 probeater wrote: i have some general questions about pvp, as i currently don't exactly know what i'm doing 1) let's say im doing a blink build; is it better to get a fast robo as well for observer and in case of DTs (how often will there be Dt's anyway) 2) if i don't get a fastish robo does it allow my blink play to be strong enough to outright win or just put pressure to get my own expo up and delay his? 3) is there a rule of thumb for when i should put down my robo bay/forge(s) 4) should i get a warp prism before or after immortals? im just trying to understand the match-up better 1) Blink with robo is a comple different build than one without. Without is all-in because you need to do damage because if he's gone stargate or robo he'll have a robo faster than you and if he went DT you build order lose. 2) Yes a blink all-in can win with good micro 3) as soon as you feel safe against any pressure your opponent can put on 4) For speed prism/immortals get it after the immortals | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:07 probeater wrote: i have some general questions about pvp, as i currently don't exactly know what i'm doing 1) let's say im doing a blink build; is it better to get a fast robo as well for observer and in case of DTs (how often will there be Dt's anyway) 2) if i don't get a fastish robo does it allow my blink play to be strong enough to outright win or just put pressure to get my own expo up and delay his? 3) is there a rule of thumb for when i should put down my robo bay/forge(s) 4) should i get a warp prism before or after immortals? im just trying to understand the match-up better General guidelines: Blink without robo is more of an all-in. You should aim to blink up a ramp asap and do a ton of damage before your opponent gets many immortals out. You will randomly lose to unscouted DT play and you will lose to someone who gets enough sentries to forcefield the ramp while getting tech out. Blink with robo for obs is more of a long term plan. You will scout better and will blink in and out to contain him and threaten to base trade better if he wants to colossus all-in you. 1) If you want to get better, go with a robo. Games will be less random and longer. Mix it up in tournaments or to have fun in awhile! 2) As I said, no robo is more of an all-in. You need to do a ton of damage to someone that is teching up. 3) Get the robo bay when you don't feel threatened to die right away. If you are under pressure, this means when you feel you have barely enough stuff to defend his pressure. If you are pressuring, you should expand and than get robo bay when you feel you no longer can keep doing damage to him with your blinking in his base. If you are not sure, get the robo bay if it means you won't delay your immortal production and cancel as needed. Forge comes a bit after the robo bay generally. 4) Situational, so hard to answer without context. Assuming blink play, you could use an early prism to do fancy stuff like loading it with a sentry and force field his ramp while blinking in his main. This is hard to execute. I'd suggest to limit your harass options to just the stalkers with obs until are confortable enough with this style and than do this prism stuff when you get better. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:07 probeater wrote: i have some general questions about pvp, as i currently don't exactly know what i'm doing 1) let's say im doing a blink build; is it better to get a fast robo as well for observer and in case of DTs (how often will there be Dt's anyway) 2) if i don't get a fastish robo does it allow my blink play to be strong enough to outright win or just put pressure to get my own expo up and delay his? 3) is there a rule of thumb for when i should put down my robo bay/forge(s) 4) should i get a warp prism before or after immortals? im just trying to understand the match-up better 1+2) The idea of going blink before robo with blink obs is that you can hit at the same timing as with a blink all-in, with less stalkes but an observer. A well timed build will complete Blink when an observer is about haflway through the map. This allows you to outmanouver and harass a fast expanding player, and sometimes even killing them ourtright eventually (PartinG vs Rain from WCS KR) Back in the day people used to go Robo before Blink, which is safer but it can't really abuse fast expansions (which is why Monk in his PvP build comparison thread from back than posted that Immortal expand is safe vs Blink/obs). 3) Ideally after both players expand and you realize you can't get really do much more damage with your stalkers. Keep an active group of 12-15 of them out for map control and still look for openings, but begin teching up. Your forge should go down either with the support bay, or slightly after. 4) In a robo expand mirror (or against a fast expand), you want to build 2 immortals and then a warp prism. Get speed before range obviously. Against a Blink or Phoenix opening, don't go speed prism, it's really easy to snipe for your opponent. | ||
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DropTester
Australia608 Posts
Do you just go for the warp prism and harass while busting out? Or would continue teching up? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
1) Get a colossus to stomp on the FF 2) Tech to blink and elevator a few units out with a warp prism, then try to flank (make sure to bring out immortals in particular) 3) Warp things on his side of the map and bust down when he's distracted (it's kinda important to have a pylon on the map for this very reason) They can all work, but either way it's a shitty spot. Depending on when you break the contain and when he expands, you may need to all-in or at the very least try to do some damage, either with a round of units on his side of the map or by just doing some one base all-in, which again can get messy if he goes for a baserace. | ||
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Geiko
France2036 Posts
On December 08 2012 18:54 DropTester wrote: if you're going robo against a blink/obs player on a map like cloud kingdom, how would you play against being sentry contained? Do you just go for the warp prism and harass while busting out? Or would continue teching up? "Going robo" isn't really a build, if you're not getting blink then that means that you are going robo expand. On Cloud Kingdom that can be particularly hard to hold vs blink/obs but not impossible. Your army should always be sitting at the ramp going back and forth to defend blink harass. You are hoping he over extends in your main and you are able to kill his stalkers with good FFs and he is hoping you'll miss your unit split or over extend yourself trying to chase his stalkers so he can FF your ramp. If he does FF your ramp and you lose your natural you basically lost the game. If you haven't expanded by the time he can sentry contain you and he went blink/obs when you only have a robo, then you are doing something wrong (expanding too late) In general if you get sentry contained very early on (aggressive 3 gate or failed 4 gate from your opponent most likely) your best bet is to immediately throw down a colossus den and go for a 4 gate 1 colo push which will be very hard for your opponent to stop if he went for any sort of probe cut build. | ||
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DropTester
Australia608 Posts
I feel that blink/obs seems to win a lot more often in the games I've seen recently. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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-Kira
352 Posts
On December 08 2012 18:54 DropTester wrote: if you're going robo against a blink/obs player on a map like cloud kingdom, how would you play against being sentry contained? Do you just go for the warp prism and harass while busting out? Or would continue teching up? Make a colossus and go down the ramp. | ||
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DropTester
Australia608 Posts
On December 08 2012 19:46 Teoita wrote: Yes, blink/obs is really really strong on both CK and Antiga for that reason. is it worth trying to go robo on these maps then? and thanks for the help guys!  | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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Geiko
France2036 Posts
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Geiko
France2036 Posts
Anything low GM and under, if you have a solid robo expand build you can definitely pull it off. You can check out Genius vs Naniwa in the GSL. (2012 season 3 ro 16 group C) Genius goes blink/obs and Naniwa goes Robo expand on Cloud Kingdom. Even though Naniwa loses in the end, it's a very close game and it very well highlights the dynamics of blink/obs vs RoboFE on this map http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67585/?set=3&lang= | ||
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Siipher
United States2 Posts
What happens is I'm ready for one of the attacks but then realize there's an attack at my nat and a drop at my main or whatever. I try to warp in at my main and it will probably barely kill a marine cause of positioning. I pull probes while he kills off my bay/forges/archive. I try to kill the attack at my nat but he loads up and leaves as a kill maybe one medivac if he messes up. I scramble to my main and try to stop it and kill as much as I can but usually he loads up and leaves relatively unharmed. Now I try to recover and hope he doesn't drop again. I'm behind in tech, economy, and probably army at this point. One of a few things happen. I push, I don't have enough tech units. He pushes, I'm still trying to recover and lose. He drops again, I'm even more behind. It seems pretty impossible to defend this efficiently and end up ahead. | ||
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Geiko
France2036 Posts
On December 09 2012 02:10 Siipher wrote: How can I defend mutli-pronged attacks from Terran? If Terran decides to this I instantly lose the game guaranteed, even if he is a couple of leagues behind myself. What happens is I'm ready for one of the attacks but then realize there's an attack at my nat and a drop at my main or whatever. I try to warp in at my main and it will probably barely kill a marine cause of positioning. I pull probes while he kills off my bay/forges/archive. I try to kill the attack at my nat but he loads up and leaves as a kill maybe one medivac if he messes up. I scramble to my main and try to stop it and kill as much as I can but usually he loads up and leaves relatively unharmed. Now I try to recover and hope he doesn't drop again. I'm behind in tech, economy, and probably army at this point. One of a few things happen. I push, I don't have enough tech units. He pushes, I'm still trying to recover and lose. He drops again, I'm even more behind. It seems pretty impossible to defend this efficiently and end up ahead. Map awareness. If you are playing against standard 1 rax FE or CC first builds, you need to start worrying about medivac drops from 10:00 onwards. You need to position proxy pylons on the sides of the maps to catch medivacs, and observers at likely medivac paths. Control watch towers and always know where his army is with observers or forward units. Always have a group of 6 stalkers in your main (2 shot medivacs) ready to intercept drops. Ultimately, with experience you'll learn to count his army size and realize if he is missing units or not and then be able to split your army if he is going heavy drop play and not just 1 or 2 medivac harass. In the late game, you want 2 cannons and a templar at every mining base. That along with a round of charge zealots should clear any drop play. Dark templar play is also good at stopping drops. | ||
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