EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 379
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | ||
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Xtreme94
Malaysia282 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
You should come out ahead as his probe count will be lower than yours. Be active with your scouting probe to make sure he doesn't take gas/gets warpgate faster than you though. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
Here's an example: http://drop.sc/281691 | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:55 Chandra wrote: How do you differentiate a high ground CC from some sort of 1 base factory play in PvT? I've had a couple of frustrating games in the past couple of days where my probe gets shut out (of course), and I poke up the ramp with zealot/stalker later and see a bunch of marines with no add-on (in another case I saw a low ground bunker with no CC). I assume that he's going for some sort of factory play, so I warp in a couple rounds of units for safety, only to find out with my obs that he's playing standard and my tech and upgrades way behind where they should be. How can I scout or react better in these situations? Here's an example: http://drop.sc/281691 You can't really differentiate other than seeing the gas (which you couldn't) or knowing each factory opening's marine count timing religiously -- which is not realistic as he can just hide them/bunker them in natural anyways. The factory all-ins that hit particularly harder though are much later (ex: 1/1/1 >9:00), or are much simpler to scout (marauder/hellion all-in has a very fast techlab on rax and 1-2 marines max.) Non-all-in factory based openers though should be accounted for in your build without over-committing. | ||
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ThirdDegree
United States329 Posts
From what I understand PvP: 2 bases PvT: 3 bases PvZ: 3 bases Is this correct? Granted if you are going for a specific all in or something this doesn't matter, I'm just thinking generally what should I try to get up to? | ||
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aBstractx
United States287 Posts
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Abusion
United Kingdom184 Posts
On December 06 2012 03:17 aBstractx wrote: can someone explain to me how the fuck you stop a bunker rush when you 13 gate? im high masters gm and i lose to this every single time. cant keep enough rpobes alive Is this a naked 2 rax bunker rush? If it is it's all about pulling probes at the right time and Stalker micro. Even top pro's struggle holding it (Squirtle) so I wouldn't worry about it too much. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 06 2012 03:07 ThirdDegree wrote: In all the match-ups, how many fully saturated bases should you try to have mid-late game? At what point does the increased probe count hurt your army too much? From what I understand PvP: 2 bases PvT: 3 bases PvZ: 3 bases Is this correct? Granted if you are going for a specific all in or something this doesn't matter, I'm just thinking generally what should I try to get up to? You want 3 base saturation in PvP too. It's just that theres a general requirement of units/colossus/phoenix numbers which make such a number unrealistic in many cases. If ever given the opportunity, you should gun for your maximum production. All of this is very contextual to the build and state of any particular game in a given match-up. As long as you're at a reasonable number of probes, theres no particular disadvantage. There is an inherent advantage in having less workers when maxed on a bank, but it's extremely risky to shed probes if you don't win with the next engagement. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
You do want 3 mining bases in PvP, but you don't necessarily want them fully saturated. In PvZ or PvT, you want between 72 and 80 probes, but in PvP, a few factors combine to put the optimal probe count around 60. These factors include: -Slower second, third and fourth bases, so your main will begin mining out before you take a fourth. Probes in excess of 60 don't provide much advantage because you don't have enough mineral patches to justify the investment. -Strong defender's advantage once both sides have a decent colossus count. It's really hard to trade effectively with attacks, and if you can't force trades, the superior reinforcements that come with a higher income don't mean much. -Slow colossus build time places heavy emphasis on winning one big battle. You can't win fights without a good colossus count, and it takes forever to rebuild that colossus core if you ever lose a battle. This means that whoever wins a decisive battle almost always wins the game. A maxed army with 60 probes is more likely to win a decisive battle than a maxed army with 70 probes, and the latter player's reinforcement advantage doesn't matter because they can't rebuild their colossi fast enough. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 06 2012 23:50 Sated wrote: Surely the maximum number of Probes you should ever need is 66..? Why would you ever need more than 3 mining bases worth of Probes..? You're not always mining from three fresh mineral lines though, as your main will almost always be mined out by the time you take a fourth. Going up to 70-73 allows you to take four pairs of geysers and still saturate the minerals of the mined out base(s) efficiently. It obviously doesn't always pan out that neatly, but 72~ seems like a more versatile number for the general expectations of what a late game Protoss will be mining from. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13426 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:20 rd wrote: You're not always mining from three fresh mineral lines though, as your main will almost always be mined out by the time you take a fourth. Going up to 70-73 allows you to take four pairs of geysers and still saturate the minerals of the mined out base(s) efficiently. It obviously doesn't always pan out that neatly, but 72~ seems like a more versatile number for the general expectations of what a late game Protoss will be mining from. But even if you get those extra gasses, they aren't doing much unfortunately. As kcdc pointed out what you really want in PvP is a collossus count if the game goes long. In a large fight you will want a bigger army so you need less probes to support the bigger army. While a better saturation can lead you to avoiding the mineral starved gas intensive PvP, its not worth the smaller army when reinforcements mean next to nothing vs 6 half health collossus vs your 2 or zero. And the 4th gas pair is really not worth it when you consider that even archons won't help if your collossus count is too low. Perhaps in HotS we will see more probes made since the tempest can do quite well vs collossus based armies. Who knows. But right now a large economy isn't worth as much as a large army unless you are literally doubling their economy and trading almost evenly | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 07 2012 02:54 ZeromuS wrote: But even if you get those extra gasses, they aren't doing much unfortunately. As kcdc pointed out what you really want in PvP is a collossus count if the game goes long. In a large fight you will want a bigger army so you need less probes to support the bigger army. While a better saturation can lead you to avoiding the mineral starved gas intensive PvP, its not worth the smaller army when reinforcements mean next to nothing vs 6 half health collossus vs your 2 or zero. And the 4th gas pair is really not worth it when you consider that even archons won't help if your collossus count is too low. Perhaps in HotS we will see more probes made since the tempest can do quite well vs collossus based armies. Who knows. But right now a large economy isn't worth as much as a large army unless you are literally doubling their economy and trading almost evenly I wasn't referring to PvP specifically, nor were the posts I replied to. | ||
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
On December 06 2012 03:17 aBstractx wrote: can someone explain to me how the fuck you stop a bunker rush when you 13 gate? im high masters gm and i lose to this every single time. cant keep enough rpobes alive be more specific, are they building the bunker in your main? are you 1 gate FE'ing and losing to bunker pressure hitting your natural? | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
On December 07 2012 08:46 JonIrenicus wrote: Was parting's secret of his immortal\sentry all-in revealed? he stated there was no real secret, and that he wins because his build order + his micro and reactions to certain situations are just better than everyone elses. | ||
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probeater
124 Posts
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freizya
United States223 Posts
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