EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 377
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 30 2012 08:17 eugalp wrote: FWIW, I did have a stalker at the watchtower. He he chased it away with marines, and kept rallying more marines there. I'm not very good with kiting to be honest but even if I were good and killed an another marine or even 2, I doubt it would have made much difference. He was making marines out of 5 rax. Played a game just like you're describing tonight. Held pretty comfortably with a 2 gate forge opening--the hold just comes down to micro. Also, getting 5+ potshots with a stalker as they cross the map really does make a difference in the fight. It's worth doing the micro if you can. http://drop.sc/280155 | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 30 2012 13:44 MysteryHours wrote: What's the best reaction to a Terran who goes CC first? If you scout it fast, you can be a little greedier than usual cutting units and pulling probes off gas to get a nexus ASAP. Mostly tho, play just like you would against rax before CC. | ||
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freizya
United States223 Posts
http://drop.sc/280187 I made a cannon in my mineral line then tried for a 1 gate core expo, but felt like i was too far behind because of my expo delay. what could i have done differently? thanks in advance | ||
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McTeazy
Canada297 Posts
On November 30 2012 14:29 freizya wrote: Hey diamond toss, I just lose to an economic 10 pool and not sure how to respond. http://drop.sc/280187 I made a cannon in my mineral line then tried for a 1 gate core expo, but felt like i was too far behind because of my expo delay. what could i have done differently? thanks in advance first off, you should really just go 13/14 forge on 4 player maps on the ladder unless you scout them first. it makes holding these things so much simpler, you just put down a cannon before nexus and pull probes to prevent a runby. your standard should be 9 pylon, 13/14 forge and scout with a second probe if you didn't find him first. if you're ok with taking a bit of a risk against early pools you don't have to but it's the only way to be 100% safe. Second, this game in particular. when you scouted his pool timing you had 400 minerals banked for your nexus. it went up to 500 before you got the forge started. I THINK you ccould have held your natural, but i'm not sure. in any case you need to commit to either holding the natural and getting the expansion up or saccing it and teching. as soon as that pylon finished in your main you shoud've started a gateway. you could've had a gateway with a zealot building by the time he got to your base at 4 minutes. this would've allowed you to push his lings out of your natural much faster and you'd be relatively even i imagine, but at the worst you wouldn't be irrecoverably behind. especially on entombed with the easily defended third. | ||
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McTeazy
Canada297 Posts
On November 30 2012 14:06 kcdc wrote: If you scout it fast, you can be a little greedier than usual cutting units and pulling probes off gas to get a nexus ASAP. Mostly tho, play just like you would against rax before CC. i've seen some pros take 4 or 5 probes and a zealot and go harass. what's your opinion on that? is it only if their zealot has finished when they scout it so they can't go like, sentry first or something with a 24ish nexus? | ||
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
I know that FFE is generally the safest and strongest opener against a fast expanding, or later pool on most maps but on the ladder 7 or 8 games out of 10 I am up against a 8-12 pool + 8 or so slow lings, followed up by roach, all on a single or late double. So what happens when I try to FFE is that I either get my wall up at my natural, just barely, or I lose because they get in. If i get the wall up, they come back with 3-6 roaches before I have a robo for immortals, if I FFE'd, and I generally lose. I can hold this with ease going gate first, crono zealots and pull a few probes, get a few sentrys, then expand (1 or 2 gate robo depending on ling/roach/expo) as I get an immortal (this is if I scout pool first + follow up roach warrant). Is this the most efficient way to deal with early roach? If I scout the zerg on a single, just let him throw away larva into early units, defend, expand then stalker/zealot/sentry/immortal push? Also, assuming no or equal upgrades whats a solid stalker to muta ratio, or stalker to roach ratio in order to fight head on? | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
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probeater
124 Posts
On December 01 2012 05:44 S7EFEN wrote: I am in silver (just promoted to gold, been focusing on probes/pylons and I can generally get to 55 or 65 workers without missing probes/pylons so I don't believe my FFE isn't working because of macro issues, unless I overbuild probes :/) and have a question when playing verse zerg on the ladder. I know that FFE is generally the safest and strongest opener against a fast expanding, or later pool on most maps but on the ladder 7 or 8 games out of 10 I am up against a 8-12 pool + 8 or so slow lings, followed up by roach, all on a single or late double. So what happens when I try to FFE is that I either get my wall up at my natural, just barely, or I lose because they get in. If i get the wall up, they come back with 3-6 roaches before I have a robo for immortals, if I FFE'd, and I generally lose. I can hold this with ease going gate first, crono zealots and pull a few probes, get a few sentrys, then expand (1 or 2 gate robo depending on ling/roach/expo) as I get an immortal (this is if I scout pool first + follow up roach warrant). Is this the most efficient way to deal with early roach? If I scout the zerg on a single, just let him throw away larva into early units, defend, expand then stalker/zealot/sentry/immortal push? Also, assuming no or equal upgrades whats a solid stalker to muta ratio, or stalker to roach ratio in order to fight head on? It's hard to help when you don't post a replay, you might be missing something that you did wrong in your analysis Anyway, if it's an 8-12 pool then you have time to get your cannon up at your natural, just pull a few probes near it so the lings don't kill it before it finishes. Once your cannon is up you can finish your wall and if you scout him expanding late or getting roach warren + early gas then throw down 2 more cannons, get 1 zealot for wall and get sentries asap this is just what you should generally be doing, it's alot easier to help if you provide a replay | ||
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sharpz
Sweden9 Posts
On December 01 2012 05:44 S7EFEN wrote: I am in silver (just promoted to gold, been focusing on probes/pylons and I can generally get to 55 or 65 workers without missing probes/pylons so I don't believe my FFE isn't working because of macro issues, unless I overbuild probes :/) and have a question when playing verse zerg on the ladder. I know that FFE is generally the safest and strongest opener against a fast expanding, or later pool on most maps but on the ladder 7 or 8 games out of 10 I am up against a 8-12 pool + 8 or so slow lings, followed up by roach, all on a single or late double. So what happens when I try to FFE is that I either get my wall up at my natural, just barely, or I lose because they get in. If i get the wall up, they come back with 3-6 roaches before I have a robo for immortals, if I FFE'd, and I generally lose. I can hold this with ease going gate first, crono zealots and pull a few probes, get a few sentrys, then expand (1 or 2 gate robo depending on ling/roach/expo) as I get an immortal (this is if I scout pool first + follow up roach warrant). Is this the most efficient way to deal with early roach? If I scout the zerg on a single, just let him throw away larva into early units, defend, expand then stalker/zealot/sentry/immortal push? Also, assuming no or equal upgrades whats a solid stalker to muta ratio, or stalker to roach ratio in order to fight head on? you can hold any early pool aggression with a FFE, in some cases like a 6pool you may have to sac the natural and throw up a pylon and a cannon in your mineral line, but you will be ahead by loads on workers and be in a great spot | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
On December 01 2012 05:44 S7EFEN wrote: I am in silver (just promoted to gold, been focusing on probes/pylons and I can generally get to 55 or 65 workers without missing probes/pylons so I don't believe my FFE isn't working because of macro issues, unless I overbuild probes :/) and have a question when playing verse zerg on the ladder. I know that FFE is generally the safest and strongest opener against a fast expanding, or later pool on most maps but on the ladder 7 or 8 games out of 10 I am up against a 8-12 pool + 8 or so slow lings, followed up by roach, all on a single or late double. So what happens when I try to FFE is that I either get my wall up at my natural, just barely, or I lose because they get in. If i get the wall up, they come back with 3-6 roaches before I have a robo for immortals, if I FFE'd, and I generally lose. I can hold this with ease going gate first, crono zealots and pull a few probes, get a few sentrys, then expand (1 or 2 gate robo depending on ling/roach/expo) as I get an immortal (this is if I scout pool first + follow up roach warrant). Is this the most efficient way to deal with early roach? If I scout the zerg on a single, just let him throw away larva into early units, defend, expand then stalker/zealot/sentry/immortal push? Also, assuming no or equal upgrades whats a solid stalker to muta ratio, or stalker to roach ratio in order to fight head on? Scout at 9, study the opening pool timings. On certain maps against certain pools you can wall off your natural before the lings arrive, and if you succeed on pushing away the pool, you will be ahead. Next thing you must do is scout the gas timing of the Zerg. If you see 1 gas, probably the Zerg is planning a Roach or Baneling based followup. Build cannons and sentries and laugh at him. If you see more gasses and Lair, it's probably the obnoxious Muta switch. Build a Stargate and Phoenixes as he won't have anytime soon the economy to support a large number of them. If you see no gasses, he trying to catch up on econ. Immortal Sentry allin him or hit him pre Hive 3 base timing. If you can't hold the nat wall because the pool is too early, build a cannon in a mineral line in a position that protects one of the gasses. Look to take your nat expansion ASAP. Chrono out Zealots and Stalkers and beware of a possible proxy hatch. Again, scouting the gasses and expansions is extremely important to determine the followup. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On December 01 2012 05:44 S7EFEN wrote: I am in silver (just promoted to gold, been focusing on probes/pylons and I can generally get to 55 or 65 workers without missing probes/pylons so I don't believe my FFE isn't working because of macro issues, unless I overbuild probes :/) and have a question when playing verse zerg on the ladder. I know that FFE is generally the safest and strongest opener against a fast expanding, or later pool on most maps but on the ladder 7 or 8 games out of 10 I am up against a 8-12 pool + 8 or so slow lings, followed up by roach, all on a single or late double. So what happens when I try to FFE is that I either get my wall up at my natural, just barely, or I lose because they get in. If i get the wall up, they come back with 3-6 roaches before I have a robo for immortals, if I FFE'd, and I generally lose. I can hold this with ease going gate first, crono zealots and pull a few probes, get a few sentrys, then expand (1 or 2 gate robo depending on ling/roach/expo) as I get an immortal (this is if I scout pool first + follow up roach warrant). Is this the most efficient way to deal with early roach? If I scout the zerg on a single, just let him throw away larva into early units, defend, expand then stalker/zealot/sentry/immortal push? Also, assuming no or equal upgrades whats a solid stalker to muta ratio, or stalker to roach ratio in order to fight head on? There's a section in here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628 with detailed explanations on how to deal both with early pools land Zerg all-ins off every PvZ opening, including FFE. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
Replay: http://drop.sc/280955 | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
On December 03 2012 07:14 Chandra wrote: I'm struggling to hold 1 base colossus all-ins in PvP when using expansion builds. In this game I went 3 stalker into 2 gate expand, scouted the all-in (which hit with 2 immortals, 1 colossus), then went up to 6 gates while pumping immortals, but still got beat pretty handily in the engagement, despite having 1 more immortal and an army supply advantage. I didn't micro terribly well, but then again I'm unsure how I should micro in engagements like this. An initial two zealot advantage and the colossus just seemed to wreck all my stuff really easily. What could I have done better? Replay: http://drop.sc/280955 Watched the replay, I have few points. 1. If you plan to expand after 3 Stalker rush, if you see no sign of imidiate agression, I don't think the Sentries after the Stalkers are necessary, this could have gave u faster expansion by 20 seconds. 2. You didn't have many more probes than him, so every probe counts. You were oversaturated in the main by 2 probes. And once you figured out he was going 1 base Colossus, you could have built few more probes. 3. The fight: - Basically your Immortals were next to useless whole fight long as they shot the Zealots. Try to get them into action. Try to set up a flank of Immortals and Stalkers to take down the Colossus. Once the colossus is gone, you can start to chew him up with FF's. - 1 Army Ctrl group. It's harder to control with mouse only, and it is a very contributing factor that your Immortals did almost nothing. - 1 tactic I think can work here is to just FF his entire army out, it will buy you time to warp more units, or he has to walk his Colossus over the FF's straight into your hungry Immortals. 4. You almost had no map presence. Keep something at the watch tower, spread some pylons around, have a spotter that sees when the attack is coming. Few Zealots counterattacking in the main can ruin the day for many fellow Protosses. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
On December 03 2012 07:49 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Watched the replay, I have few points. 1. If you plan to expand after 3 Stalker rush, if you see no sign of imidiate agression, I don't think the Sentries after the Stalkers are necessary, this could have gave u faster expansion by 20 seconds. 2. You didn't have many more probes than him, so every probe counts. You were oversaturated in the main by 2 probes. And once you figured out he was going 1 base Colossus, you could have built few more probes. 3. The fight: - Basically your Immortals were next to useless whole fight long as they shot the Zealots. Try to get them into action. Try to set up a flank of Immortals and Stalkers to take down the Colossus. Once the colossus is gone, you can start to chew him up with FF's. - 1 Army Ctrl group. It's harder to control with mouse only, and it is a very contributing factor that your Immortals did almost nothing. - 1 tactic I think can work here is to just FF his entire army out, it will buy you time to warp more units, or he has to walk his Colossus over the FF's straight into your hungry Immortals. 4. You almost had no map presence. Keep something at the watch tower, spread some pylons around, have a spotter that sees when the attack is coming. Few Zealots counterattacking in the main can ruin the day for many fellow Protosses. The sentries are kind of built into the build for blind security against early all-ins. But I agree on all other points. As far as a flank goes, might it be worth getting a warp prism to try and drop immortals behind to target the colossus? I feel like a flank might leave 1 of your 2 unit groups overly exposed. | ||
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ProfessionalNoob
United States75 Posts
On December 01 2012 05:44 S7EFEN wrote: I am in silver (just promoted to gold, been focusing on probes/pylons and I can generally get to 55 or 65 workers without missing probes/pylons so I don't believe my FFE isn't working because of macro issues, unless I overbuild probes :/) and have a question when playing verse zerg on the ladder. I know that FFE is generally the safest and strongest opener against a fast expanding, or later pool on most maps but on the ladder 7 or 8 games out of 10 I am up against a 8-12 pool + 8 or so slow lings, followed up by roach, all on a single or late double. So what happens when I try to FFE is that I either get my wall up at my natural, just barely, or I lose because they get in. If i get the wall up, they come back with 3-6 roaches before I have a robo for immortals, if I FFE'd, and I generally lose. I can hold this with ease going gate first, crono zealots and pull a few probes, get a few sentrys, then expand (1 or 2 gate robo depending on ling/roach/expo) as I get an immortal (this is if I scout pool first + follow up roach warrant). Is this the most efficient way to deal with early roach? If I scout the zerg on a single, just let him throw away larva into early units, defend, expand then stalker/zealot/sentry/immortal push? Also, assuming no or equal upgrades whats a solid stalker to muta ratio, or stalker to roach ratio in order to fight head on? Generally, If they one base, don't be afraid to make up to 5 canons. If I scout a 8-12 pool with slow lings, I just complete the wall off with another gateway temporarily (assuming my canon is not up by the time they get over) and cancel it later, otherwise I'll hold position a probe in the choke, and this buys enough time for the canon to kill all the lings. Then, if they roach all-in, I just build 2 more canons (total of 3), and chrono out a sentry in addition to my immortal (I get my robo extremely early, as in around 30-32 supply for the immortal sentry push), so how this works out, is that if they attack with their first round of roaches, 3 canons holds it off easy, if they wait, I have a few sentries and an immortal or two. Basically, if you scout no natural, it's always a good idea to build at least 2 extra canons behind your wall. | ||
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wajd
240 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
On November 30 2012 14:06 kcdc wrote: If you scout it fast, you can be a little greedier than usual cutting units and pulling probes off gas to get a nexus ASAP. Mostly tho, play just like you would against rax before CC. What about a 1 gate FE into 4 gate? In platinum it seems to work against 1 rax FE, but I'm interested in knowing if it works in Diamond+? | ||
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