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On November 24 2012 14:29 Doodsmack wrote:I really am at a loss to explain the difference in army size in this game: http://drop.sc/278202Obviously he had an in-base orbital and got his 3rd up a little faster, but he didn't even saturate his 3rd. Our incomes didn't seem too far off, and I was spending my money, so I really don't understand why there was such a vast difference in army size.
Any help anyone? Pretty please  .
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On November 27 2012 14:40 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 14:29 Doodsmack wrote:I really am at a loss to explain the difference in army size in this game: http://drop.sc/278202Obviously he had an in-base orbital and got his 3rd up a little faster, but he didn't even saturate his 3rd. Our incomes didn't seem too far off, and I was spending my money, so I really don't understand why there was such a vast difference in army size. Any help anyone? Pretty please .
If he cc'ed first he'd have cut every corner imaginable. Either way, you gunned for colossus behind a pretty late third and he gunned for the huge production with no intention to pressure behind poking the nat with hellions. He was producing out of 8 rax 2 starport before your additional gateways even finished. Sorta reminiscent of the kespa style a few months ago, topending production before tech/third except slower, way more greedy and no aggression at all.
And those corners add up, when neither of you intend to be aggressive and he happens to be more greedy with the double ups and fast third cc.
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Canada16217 Posts
On November 27 2012 04:59 Davron wrote:
I was watching a pro stream last night and maybe my eyes fooled my but I saw he was chronoing his gateways almost all at the same time. I didn't see him individually click. Is there a secret chrono technique for gateways? If not, what is the fastest way? I am so slow and sometimes don't even click them all.
As far as I know you can't do that(?) The way I use it just have your nexi hotkeyed(all on one or up to 3 on individual hotkeys for each nexus) and your gateways hotkeyed, and then just go back to your gateways to check when the chrono has warn off.(if you hit a hotkey twice you go that building or if you have your army or just 1 unit hotkeyed it does the same, incase you didn't know)
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Does anyone have a link to the 3 blink stalker expand build that Grubby did in the finals of IEM vs Sting on Cloud Kingdom (I believe it was game 3), or any similar not all in blink stalker build for PvT?
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On November 27 2012 04:38 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 00:08 Teoita wrote:
Also against marine-scv all-ins, it's very smart to place your third pylon at your ramp. This allows you to reactively add two extra gates and fully wall-in, which buys time for a 1-2 extra stalkers to come out and also thins out his unit count significantly.
Afaik only me and kcdc do this, and it does make holding far, far easier. The downside is you can't do some of the greedier 1gate fe variations (like squirtle's). Leaving a pylon at the top of your ramp makes defending marine-SCV all-ins trivially easy, even if you don't scout them until they're halfway to your base. Here's what I do: (1) Build a zealot and stalker out of your gate. Some people like to skip the zealot, but this is just asking for an ebay block IMO, and the zealot is important for scouting (2) 3rd pylon at top of ramp before nexus. (3) Rally zealot across map, see SCV train heading toward me. Zealot dies. (4) Cancel nexus (5) Reactively wall off top of ramp while chroning out stalkers (6) Shoot with stalkers as the marines and SCVs try to break wall (7) Collect victory Sometimes they'll manage to break the wall before the push is fully dead, but it's easy to micro your stalkers against the depleted force that makes it past your ramp. You can also reinforce the wall to buy more free shots.
I am wondering, what happens to your first stalker? Does he manage to get home before the wall, or he stays home all the time? Also, is it better to place the pylon right next to the ramp, or so that the radius will just touch the ramp? With that in mind, I presume you wanna walloff fully, and not leave space for a unit.
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You can just leave the stalker outside to pull his units away from your wall.. or pick off the reinforcement marines
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On November 27 2012 16:20 Pheint wrote:
Does anyone have a link to the 3 blink stalker expand build that Grubby did in the finals of IEM vs Sting on Cloud Kingdom (I believe it was game 3), or any similar not all in blink stalker build for PvT?
I don't imagine there's a guide/build order with numbers out yet, but you could always look up the VoD. As far as non-allin blink builds go, Day9 did a daily on Huk's 1 Gate FE into Blink pressure. There is also a guide involving Blink harass into fast 3rd here on TL.
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How to win PvZ - the hard, but correct way.
I cba to write a proper guide, but it's too good to keep it to myself, so enjoy. If you're a masochist like me, and like a challange you can try it. Don't even attempt under high masters+.
1. FFE/Nexus first
2. Stargate + 3gates total (get +1 attack to defend 3rd in case of speedling attempt) -> make 4 phoenixes and snipe queen at the 3rd, if he's underprepared get up to 5 phoenix and continue harass in his bases, otherwise stay with 4 phoenixes and clear entire map from overlords
3. Robo + 3rd around 8:30-9:00. - Sim city with ~4 gateways, pylons and 2 cannons -> make exactly 2 immortals (unless you see mass roach, then chrono as much as you can), sentries and robo bay
4. 3rd secured, warp prism speed on the way, map cleared from overlords, so deny watchtowers with phoenixes and keep scouting the map, while harassing with 2 immortals with warp prism - you can go for 4th snipe or something in the main. Get twilight and continue upgrading attack while adding 2 colossi with range, blink and not too many stalkers.
5. Take 4th while harassing with 1-2 warp prisms, and watch his army with phoenixes while you set up 4th with cannons. Add templar archives and fleet beacon. Mine from 8 gasses asap.
6. Warp 2-3 templars to accumulate energy, start mothership and add 2 more stargates while harassing, preferably with 2 warp prisms diving in and out to force as much defences in the peripherial bases as possible.
7. Get your ideal air support and pick off bases while avoiding his army, keep mothership behind cannons for recalls. Set up your snipes on bases with prior warp prism attacks. The best time to start air upgrades is, after you buy a mothership and storm, and after you produce first 3 units out of your stargates.
After playing 10x better than your enemy, you win. GL
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What is the best composition for PvP in the mid-late game?
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On November 28 2012 13:17 zenkicker wrote:
What is the best composition for PvP in the mid-late game?
This generally is heavily reliant on what opening you did. I consider the mid-late game to be the phase when you are nearing maxed. Generally before this stage you don't really want to sacrifice units as you don't really need to free up supply, so you kind of end up with a grab bag of whatever happened as the mid game settles. Ideally this is a composition that is fairly close to what you want your late game composition to be so it doesn't take too much adjustment.
So on that note I think I should briefly mention that in the mid game you should avoid making stalkers for defensive purposes as much as possible. Stalkers might be the most useless unit in late game PvP, as their health and dps are very poor, and their mobility with regards to harass pales in comparison to warp prisms. So on that note, you should be trying to scrape by with as few stalkers in the mid game as you can. One of the key examples of this (I can get into more details if you are curious) is responding to phoenix. More than 4 stalkers for a mineral line is definite overkill, as the resource and supply costs of stalkers will greatly hinder the rest of your army.
Other than that, you will hopefully be producing double robo colossi starting from the mid game, so a healthy number of colossi, a few immortals, and maybe 10-16 zealots is a decent place to be at this point. Once you near maxed you should start sacrificing extra sentries (keep 1 alive for guardian shield) and all of your stalkers (except maybe 1-2 to snipe observers). And by sacrifice I mean try to trade efficiently in a mineral line, if you can. After this as you continue to refill your supply you should sac your zealots.
Ideally you should be aiming for a late game composition with 8-10 colossi, 8-10 immortals, and the rest archons (not counting mothership etc.). There actually is such a thing as too many colossi, because they block each other, whereas other units can walk underneath them. What this means is that if you have more than 10 colossi, probably 6 or more will be chilling at the back of the battle not doing much, where that supply could be better used in units that will all be shooting at the same time. Generally the way the battles turn out is the archons die first, as they are in front, then you end up with a bunch of immortals and colossi. The immortals will hopefully stand just in front of your colossi so your opponent's colossi will splash you immortals and not your colossi. Also immortals are super effective against colossi, so once your opponent's archons are gone if you target your immortals on his colossi his colossi will vanish very quickly.
Only other thing I should mention is that you should be watchful for your opponent grabbing a mothership. If you see that coming, add one HT to feedback it before it can land a vortex. Also, if you scout your opponent's colossus army being really puny, check to see if he isn't doing some crazy air switch. If he is, add HT for storm, and as many archons as possible, while trading your colo + immortals for bases/tech. Then remax with archon stalker HT and you should be able to wipe any air army off the table.
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What is the appropriate response to a terran proxy 2-rax?
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On November 28 2012 18:16 KiDYoMi wrote:
What is the appropriate response to a terran proxy 2-rax?
You should be chronoboosting units the moment you scout it. you can cancel the nexus if you don't feel comfortable but you should be safe throwing down another gateway and chronoing units instead. It also depends on if he is getting maradurs or not.
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On November 28 2012 18:30 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 18:16 KiDYoMi wrote:
What is the appropriate response to a terran proxy 2-rax? You should be chronoboosting units the moment you scout it. you can cancel the nexus if you don't feel comfortable but you should be safe throwing down another gateway and chronoing units instead. It also depends on if he is getting maradurs or not.
Stay on 1 gas, or get 2? If marauders, make more zealots...or try to get an immortal?
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You're really a lot better off with stalkers than zealots in almost any situation. Before WG finishes armies are so small zealots will be kited indefinitely. Buy the time warpgate finishes you may be able to warp in a few zealots if the battle is still going on for some reason, but stalkers are always better early on. Just pull probes when the marauders arrive and target fire your stalkers.
E: Make the first zealot obviously, that guy is very useful.
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On November 29 2012 02:26 KiDYoMi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 18:30 MysteryMeat1 wrote:On November 28 2012 18:16 KiDYoMi wrote:
What is the appropriate response to a terran proxy 2-rax? You should be chronoboosting units the moment you scout it. you can cancel the nexus if you don't feel comfortable but you should be safe throwing down another gateway and chronoing units instead. It also depends on if he is getting maradurs or not. Stay on 1 gas, or get 2? If marauders, make more zealots...or try to get an immortal?
If you do the usual 1 g FE build with zealot -> stalker -> sentry you should have double gas before his timing hits anyway. If he doesn't pull scvs you should be able to hold it fairly easy, even if he does you can pull probes I guess if you feel confident in your micro.
The thing is with 3 gateways almost done and he's at your natural you shouldn't probably engage him right away, wait in your main till you have just enough probes then go down and fend or kill his push of, if possible to buy time in some way you should do it with maybe faking pokeing him that your moving down or something.
I think the key thing against 2 rax is to move down just in the last second, forcing him to choose between fighting your army or kill your nexus and lose all his units. I think it's best also to add a robo as well regardless if he fights your units or your nexus, then you have better option to follow up with and isn't really behind in tech. If he snipes nexus you need more gas though so take both assimilators asap and chrono workers etc.
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Italy12246 Posts
What kind of proxy 2rax are we talking about here? 11/11 marine scv all-in, or some wierd proxy 2 rax with gas build?
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Any tips about what to do when facing a 2 base marine/scv all-in? It typically starts as a normal gasless FE (sometimes CC before rax). Then he makes up to 5 rax, never gets gas. Marines push you from the watch towers, scv train follows. Seems like this is impossible to scout until it actually hits since it looks almost identical to a macro play.
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 30 2012 07:10 eugalp wrote:
Any tips about what to do when facing a 2 base marine/scv all-in? It typically starts as a normal gasless FE (sometimes CC before rax). Then he makes up to 5 rax, never gets gas. Marines push you from the watch towers, scv train follows. Seems like this is impossible to scout until it actually hits since it looks almost identical to a macro play.
Yeah it's impossible to scout it. You just need really good micro, both forcefielding and kiting whatever stalker count you have across the map, while trying to have as many units as possible from your 3gates. Cancel any tech building if you need money to get more units.
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On November 30 2012 07:13 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 07:10 eugalp wrote:
Any tips about what to do when facing a 2 base marine/scv all-in? It typically starts as a normal gasless FE (sometimes CC before rax). Then he makes up to 5 rax, never gets gas. Marines push you from the watch towers, scv train follows. Seems like this is impossible to scout until it actually hits since it looks almost identical to a macro play. Yeah it's impossible to scout it. You just need really good micro, both forcefielding and kiting whatever stalker count you have across the map, while trying to have as many units as possible from your 3gates. Cancel any tech building if you need money to get more units.
Some builds will also have a forge in time to add cannons. You don't need cannons to defend it, but the option is on the table if you're doing a build that includes a quick single forge (common in templar builds).
Since you didn't post a replay, it's tough to say exactly what went wrong, but if you don't already keep a stalker either at your opponent's natural or at a watchtower where you'll be able to see him move out, you need to do so. Not having vision at Terran's front is a common mistake even in Masters, and it makes a world of difference in defending these sorts of attacks. The attacks themselves are actually pretty easy to stomp, but if you don't know they're coming, you won't hit good forcefields.
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On November 30 2012 07:13 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 07:10 eugalp wrote:
Any tips about what to do when facing a 2 base marine/scv all-in? It typically starts as a normal gasless FE (sometimes CC before rax). Then he makes up to 5 rax, never gets gas. Marines push you from the watch towers, scv train follows. Seems like this is impossible to scout until it actually hits since it looks almost identical to a macro play. Yeah it's impossible to scout it. You just need really good micro, both forcefielding and kiting whatever stalker count you have across the map, while trying to have as many units as possible from your 3gates. Cancel any tech building if you need money to get more units.
wouldn't you see it if your stalker is on the watch tower? that would let you kite and prepare your army...
or do you mean it's impossible to know at least 1-2 minutes beforehand?
Edit: never mind, just read kcdc's post
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EPT
