EPTOn November 25 2012 21:01 Asmodeusx wrote:
What kind of early pool? 6,7,8,9,10,11,12? What map?
What kind of early pool? 6,7,8,9,10,11,12? What map?
i lose to any early pool in every map, doesn't matter T_T
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 375
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
i lose to any early pool in every map, doesn't matter T_T | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 25 2012 21:22 Extenz wrote: i lose to any early pool in every map, doesn't matter T_T Might I direct you toward an old guide I wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=366505 I still need to update it and fill it out with screenshots of all the walloffs, but hopefully you can read through some of the information and get a good idea of how to deal with early pools when FFE. Make sure you get a scout on his 3rd base after you've stabilized your wall; if you see no 3rd by about 5:00, build 1-2 extra cannons, chronoboost out 3 sentries, and preferably go stargate tech with a fast void ray (as this will save you against a lot of followup roach aggression). Hope this helps! | ||
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
On November 25 2012 21:31 SC2John wrote: Might I direct you toward an old guide I wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=366505 I still need to update it and fill it out with screenshots of all the walloffs, but hopefully you can read through some of the information and get a good idea of how to deal with early pools when FFE. Make sure you get a scout on his 3rd base after you've stabilized your wall; if you see no 3rd by about 5:00, build 1-2 extra cannons, chronoboost out 3 sentries, and preferably go stargate tech with a fast void ray (as this will save you against a lot of followup roach aggression). Hope this helps! Thanks I'll check that out. | ||
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GaryOakSC2
Germany14 Posts
So I really have a ton of trouble against Terran cheeses. So far I have found no way to scout double rax marine SCV all-in before it is too late. The thing is, he gets a rax and either proxies one or simply builds it in his main denying scout with a unfinished supply depot. Then he takes 6-8 Marines and walks out, all of his SCVs soon follow. By the time this hits I have one Zealot, one Stalker and another one about to pop out. (I go for 1Gate expand with 1 Chrono on stalkers) I find that kiting will get me MAYBE one SCV kill before he is in my base and that is not really helpful. The SCVs will block any attempt to damage the Marines and the Marine DPS is incredibly high, so pulling Probes does not quite cut it. Usually I just lose all my stuff to a constant stream of Marines... Any ideas? I have searched all over the internet and did not find anything that is even remotely helpful. Also, Proxy Factory+Starport Hellion drops seem to kill me every single time. If I send my first Stalker to his base to see any units moving out my second Stalker will scout the buildings and I see 3 hellions in my base ready to roll. Warping in 3 Stalkers ensures that I do not lose every single probe but something between 10 and 20 is sure to die. (Yes, with good hellion control that is done in like 6-7 seconds).. I've lost the replays sadly but I mean, those scenarios are pretty damn straight forward. And please assume good micro from the Terran. | ||
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:26 GaryOakSC2 wrote: Master P here. So I really have a ton of trouble against Terran cheeses. So far I have found no way to scout double rax marine SCV all-in before it is too late. The thing is, he gets a rax and either proxies one or simply builds it in his main denying scout with a unfinished supply depot. Then he takes 6-8 Marines and walks out, all of his SCVs soon follow. By the time this hits I have one Zealot, one Stalker and another one about to pop out. (I go for 1Gate expand with 1 Chrono on stalkers) I find that kiting will get me MAYBE one SCV kill before he is in my base and that is not really helpful. The SCVs will block any attempt to damage the Marines and the Marine DPS is incredibly high, so pulling Probes does not quite cut it. Usually I just lose all my stuff to a constant stream of Marines... Any ideas? I have searched all over the internet and did not find anything that is even remotely helpful. Also, Proxy Factory+Starport Hellion drops seem to kill me every single time. If I send my first Stalker to his base to see any units moving out my second Stalker will scout the buildings and I see 3 hellions in my base ready to roll. Warping in 3 Stalkers ensures that I do not lose every single probe but something between 10 and 20 is sure to die. (Yes, with good hellion control that is done in like 6-7 seconds).. I've lost the replays sadly but I mean, those scenarios are pretty damn straight forward. And please assume good micro from the Terran. That one is pretty self explanatory. Same with proxy port drops. Gotta control your units better and split probes. Losing 20 probes is ridiculous and unnecessary. Keep sentries and any zealots at your nat to hold the ground push and first 3 stalkers in your main to help deflect the drop. | ||
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Davron
United States86 Posts
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
On November 26 2012 14:59 Davron wrote: I like to take a fast expand in PvT, but sometimes this forces my Terran opponent to not expand and all-in me. Do I always cancel my expo if I don't scout his expo? I feel if I let it finish, it will always get destroyed. What am I supposed to do if my Terran opponent does not expand? Usually I quickly cancel and go 3 gate robo, but then they expand and I'm forced to push and die. You shouldn't cancel, if he goes for a 1/1/1 you'll need an expo, anyway I don't understand how you can't hold, if you go to 3 gate 2 - 3 probes after your expansion (then you cut to make gates) you should hold pretty much anything, and keep a stalker outside his natural to see when he's moving and you kil his units while they come. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:26 GaryOakSC2 wrote: Master P here. So I really have a ton of trouble against Terran cheeses. So far I have found no way to scout double rax marine SCV all-in before it is too late. The thing is, he gets a rax and either proxies one or simply builds it in his main denying scout with a unfinished supply depot. Then he takes 6-8 Marines and walks out, all of his SCVs soon follow. By the time this hits I have one Zealot, one Stalker and another one about to pop out. (I go for 1Gate expand with 1 Chrono on stalkers) I find that kiting will get me MAYBE one SCV kill before he is in my base and that is not really helpful. The SCVs will block any attempt to damage the Marines and the Marine DPS is incredibly high, so pulling Probes does not quite cut it. Usually I just lose all my stuff to a constant stream of Marines... Any ideas? I have searched all over the internet and did not find anything that is even remotely helpful. Also, Proxy Factory+Starport Hellion drops seem to kill me every single time. If I send my first Stalker to his base to see any units moving out my second Stalker will scout the buildings and I see 3 hellions in my base ready to roll. Warping in 3 Stalkers ensures that I do not lose every single probe but something between 10 and 20 is sure to die. (Yes, with good hellion control that is done in like 6-7 seconds).. I've lost the replays sadly but I mean, those scenarios are pretty damn straight forward. And please assume good micro from the Terran. If you get into his base, watch his SCV count. You should be able to see the CC visibly stop producing, or at the very least spastically producing trying to fake you out. When his first marine pops he should have 16. Any less and theres a proxy. It doesn't really matter though, as your build shouldn't change bar canceling an expansion if you're scouting with a stalker at his nat. You might not be reacting correctly. Just drop 3 pylons at the ramp, focus marines with stalkers, etc. Constant stream of marines varies wildly on the timing, and in general relies on scouting (stalkers at the nat), cutting whatever to get more stalkers out, then forcefielding your nat perfectly as your tech comes out. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
Afaik only me and kcdc do this, and it does make holding far, far easier. The downside is you can't do some of the greedier 1gate fe variations (like squirtle's). | ||
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
1300pts master last leason. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On November 27 2012 04:03 jcroisdale wrote: In some of my games i like to go 14 forge, then upon scouting I pylon block the zerg hatch and go for a 20-21 nexus. Using the extra supply from the pylon at their natural. With good scouting its perfectly safe. Do you think proves viable at all levels, and If so why don't people do it? 1300pts master last leason. 20-21 Nexus is actually less economical than 17 Nexus. It has to do with the mineral saturation at your main. Once you get over 16 probes at your main, builds start becoming less economical. Not to mention more Nexus energy from an earlier Nexus. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 27 2012 00:08 Teoita wrote: Also against marine-scv all-ins, it's very smart to place your third pylon at your ramp. This allows you to reactively add two extra gates and fully wall-in, which buys time for a 1-2 extra stalkers to come out and also thins out his unit count significantly. Afaik only me and kcdc do this, and it does make holding far, far easier. The downside is you can't do some of the greedier 1gate fe variations (like squirtle's). Leaving a pylon at the top of your ramp makes defending marine-SCV all-ins trivially easy, even if you don't scout them until they're halfway to your base. Here's what I do: (1) Build a zealot and stalker out of your gate. Some people like to skip the zealot, but this is just asking for an ebay block IMO, and the zealot is important for scouting (2) 3rd pylon at top of ramp before nexus. (3) Rally zealot across map, see SCV train heading toward me. Zealot dies. (4) Cancel nexus (5) Reactively wall off top of ramp while chroning out stalkers (6) Shoot with stalkers as the marines and SCVs try to break wall (7) Collect victory Sometimes they'll manage to break the wall before the push is fully dead, but it's easy to micro your stalkers against the depleted force that makes it past your ramp. You can also reinforce the wall to buy more free shots. | ||
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Davron
United States86 Posts
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
On November 27 2012 04:38 kcdc wrote: (1) Build a zealot and stalker out of your gate. Some people like to skip the zealot, but this is just asking for an ebay block IMO, and the zealot is important for scouting (2) 3rd pylon at top of ramp before nexus. (3) Rally zealot across map, see SCV train heading toward me. Zealot dies. (4) Cancel nexus (5) Reactively wall off top of ramp while chroning out stalkers (6) Shoot with stalkers as the marines and SCVs try to break wall (7) Collect victory Sometimes they'll manage to break the wall before the push is fully dead, but it's easy to micro your stalkers against the depleted force that makes it past your ramp. You can also reinforce the wall to buy more free shots. I find it best to start the zealot at about 175 minerals. Then I time an SCV to hit the natural at about 290 minerals. The zealot s about 85% done so if you see a clear natural you can cancel him and throw down your nexus ASAP. I also scout after my second pylon. On 2 player maps you get to T's base in time to keep building the zealot if you see gas/tech lab/suspicious full wall. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
On November 27 2012 04:18 monk. wrote: 20-21 Nexus is actually less economical than 17 Nexus. It has to do with the mineral saturation at your main. Once you get over 16 probes at your main, builds start becoming less economical. Not to mention more Nexus energy from an earlier Nexus. Recently I have been doing an inbase 13 Forge. It helps really well vs early pools as I can save my Forge and pylon and get a nice early Cannon. It gives a sizeable advantage vs any early Pool (Nexus first builds, or even Forge Nexus builds with Pylon at the nat actually fight evenly or worse vs early Pools most of the time). | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
Goddamn, now whenever I read "something big is coming" I get sad  . Worth it, but nothing to look forward to anymore. Does anyone know why TL has so much better resources for protoss than Terran? Is it because it's easier to be "the best of the non-pros" with P than T. I like dabbling with T and I would absolutely love a guide in a similar vein, but there is just 1/10ths the content of TvX on here compared to PvX. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 27 2012 04:59 Davron wrote: I was watching a pro stream last night and maybe my eyes fooled my but I saw he was chronoing his gateways almost all at the same time. I didn't see him individually click. Is there a secret chrono technique for gateways? If not, what is the fastest way? I am so slow and sometimes don't even click them all. Make sure when you build your gateways you have the foresight to realize they will be cboosted at a later point -- i.e, keep them compact and easy to click between. From there, it's practice and dexterity. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On November 27 2012 08:15 Dubsy wrote: ^ I think that's called the Parting 1 gate FE. It's good, but soooooo risky vs a eBay block. Goddamn, now whenever I read "something big is coming" I get sad . Worth it, but nothing to look forward to anymore. Does anyone know why TL has so much better resources for protoss than Terran? Is it because it's easier to be "the best of the non-pros" with P than T. I like dabbling with T and I would absolutely love a guide in a similar vein, but there is just 1/10ths the content of TvX on here compared to PvX. Contributions and posting are done on a voluntary basis. It just so happened that the most active/high level posters are Protoss, as well as the craziest of them all (sup monk). | ||
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GaryOakSC2
Germany14 Posts
On November 27 2012 04:38 kcdc wrote: Leaving a pylon at the top of your ramp makes defending marine-SCV all-ins trivially easy, even if you don't scout them until they're halfway to your base. Here's what I do: (1) Build a zealot and stalker out of your gate. Some people like to skip the zealot, but this is just asking for an ebay block IMO, and the zealot is important for scouting (2) 3rd pylon at top of ramp before nexus. (3) Rally zealot across map, see SCV train heading toward me. Zealot dies. (4) Cancel nexus (5) Reactively wall off top of ramp while chroning out stalkers (6) Shoot with stalkers as the marines and SCVs try to break wall (7) Collect victory Sometimes they'll manage to break the wall before the push is fully dead, but it's easy to micro your stalkers against the depleted force that makes it past your ramp. You can also reinforce the wall to buy more free shots. Yeah I came to the same conclusion. Good to know it would actually work. Thanks | ||
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