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On November 21 2012 03:07 wajd wrote:
in PvZ, if I scout Roach, I prepare for Roach. But then get Muta-harassed. Does the zerg player see I scouted him early and changes his tech, or is this a basic zerg build? How do I rebound from this as the muta harass becomes too much...?
Probably changed his tech. You should keep scouting with an obs or a hallucinated phoenix to check his tech & the location of his army.
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On November 21 2012 03:07 wajd wrote:
in PvZ, if I scout Roach, I prepare for Roach. But then get Muta-harassed. Does the zerg player see I scouted him early and changes his tech, or is this a basic zerg build? How do I rebound from this as the muta harass becomes too much...?
At Masters+, the standard way to get mutas is to take a fast third, tech lair and drop a roach warren for safety, and then start a spire after lair completes. If they're taking a fast third, then seeing a roach warren doesn't tell you a whole lot because they'll get the roach warren whether they're going roach bust, mutas or infestors.
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What's the safest way to defend +1 Stim/Cs/ 2medivac timings after going 1 gate 3 nexus? I'm pretty sure I should be able to get the benefit of the 3rd before this hits.
Should I just be pumping off of 8 gates and praying i win the fight; or can i possibly get blink/HT or collossus before this hits?Also should I be probe cutting before this hits as a few minutes of 1.5x normal probe productions feels costly at times.
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Against Zerg is it supposed to be safe to send your first few units out to take watch towers and such? At 6:00 I have no idea if Zerg has 4 lings or 20, and half the time I get swarmed and lose everything, which is pretty devastating that early on.
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On November 21 2012 10:35 MysteryHours wrote:
Against Zerg is it supposed to be safe to send your first few units out to take watch towers and such? At 6:00 I have no idea if Zerg has 4 lings or 20, and half the time I get swarmed and lose everything, which is pretty devastating that early on.
Your scouting probe should be able to to see their gas timing long before they can have a queen/lings to deflect it. You can get a rough idea of when their speed should be finished based on when it's started (time for geyser to build + time to mine 100 gas + speed research time). That, and the presence of an early third hatch generally means they aren't going to make a ton of lings at random.
Your first gateway units will usually be safe for the first few minutes to aggressively take towers and poke unless your scout sees otherwise (fast gas or no third).
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On November 20 2012 15:52 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 15:07 DanceSC wrote:
Scenario: You take an early third in a PvZ matchup and hold the timing attack of roaches and zerglings with immortal / sentry and some cannons. Your observer scouts a completed spire and your blink comes in. As a reaction you throw down the templar archives a couple additional gateways and go into full blink stalker production dividing them among your 3 bases. The first muta harass hits and you fend it off. You have the option to warp in enough high templar for 4 archons and your +3 weapons upgrade comes in. Do you have a timing window of attack before storm completes by morphing 4 archons and pressing with blinkstalker / 6 sentry / 1 immortal / 4 archon, and using the spare minerals towards zeals to harass additional expos and/or cannons.
This scenario has came up many times for me on the ladder and also while I was watching a stream. Most of the time on the ladder I win with this window (or so it seems like a window) but I was also told that it is completely impossible and that the only option is for protoss to wait it out for storm. My question is what is everyone else's thoughts, at the highest level of play is this window of opportunity viable. This does not exclude in anyway the research of storm, it is a small timing window from the time that the templar archives completes, to the time that storm research comes in designed to strike when zerg desperately need the mutalisks to buy time. I think timing windows like this vary from game to game. It depends on how much has he invested into mutas and how well you defended as well as how much you killed. I think if you see him playing greedy and isn't making anything else but teching then pushing onto the map is a good idea. For these kinds of pushes i would bring a warpprism along to warp in zealots or stalkers as well as leave two-3 hts at home to gain energy for storm. This way you have a follow-up window were you can push again when storm completes
Yes, cause you invest heavy into the gas you have the spare minerals for zealots and a warp prism. The zealots are key because you will have the weapons upgrade on their ground armor, so you will be 2 hitting the zerglings, zerg never attacks unless they have lings as cannon fodder, you basically use the zealots with the same mindset that the zerg has. Thanks for the response
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What's the best composition against pure mech Terran with heavy Banshee?
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On November 21 2012 13:54 MysteryHours wrote:
What's the best composition against pure mech Terran with heavy Banshee?
Depending on siege tank/thor/hellion count, I like zealot-heavy compositions, with plenty of high templar (primarily for feedback, some storms), perhaps 2 colossuses (for some splash), some stalkers to blink under and focus banshees and archons. Have at least 2 obs with your army, and make sure you have obs speed. Feedback the crap out of banshees and thors.
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On November 21 2012 21:41 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:54 MysteryHours wrote:
What's the best composition against pure mech Terran with heavy Banshee? Depending on siege tank/thor/hellion count, I like zealot-heavy compositions, with plenty of high templar (primarily for feedback, some storms), perhaps 2 colossuses (for some splash), some stalkers to blink under and focus banshees and archons. Have at least 2 obs with your army, and make sure you have obs speed. Feedback the crap out of banshees and thors.
No Immortals? I agree with the rest of course.
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On November 21 2012 21:57 Bahajinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 21:41 Gumbi wrote:On November 21 2012 13:54 MysteryHours wrote:
What's the best composition against pure mech Terran with heavy Banshee? Depending on siege tank/thor/hellion count, I like zealot-heavy compositions, with plenty of high templar (primarily for feedback, some storms), perhaps 2 colossuses (for some splash), some stalkers to blink under and focus banshees and archons. Have at least 2 obs with your army, and make sure you have obs speed. Feedback the crap out of banshees and thors. No Immortals? I agree with the rest of course.
Ah yes, ofc, half a dozen immortals if he goes heavy tank/thor.
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On November 21 2012 13:54 MysteryHours wrote:
What's the best composition against pure mech Terran with heavy Banshee?
Don't listen to the guys before ... mech+banshee RAPES ANY GROUND ARMY.
If you allow the terran to get enough factories and mech upgrades you NEED to go air. 4-6 stargate voidray and high templar support with zealot multipronged harass until you can get critical mass of void rays.
If he starts getting vikings start getting some carriers.
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On November 21 2012 22:11 hecticSc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:54 MysteryHours wrote:
What's the best composition against pure mech Terran with heavy Banshee? Don't listen to the guys before ... mech+banshee RAPES ANY GROUND ARMY. If you allow the terran to get enough factories and mech upgrades you NEED to go air. 4-6 stargate voidray and high templar support with zealot multipronged harass until you can get critical mass of void rays. If he starts getting vikings start getting some carriers.
Mass Voidray sounds good if you can get them up in time, but why react to Vikings with Carriers? Isn't that just another unit that Vikings do well against?
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On November 22 2012 01:01 MysteryHours wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:11 hecticSc wrote:On November 21 2012 13:54 MysteryHours wrote:
What's the best composition against pure mech Terran with heavy Banshee? Don't listen to the guys before ... mech+banshee RAPES ANY GROUND ARMY. If you allow the terran to get enough factories and mech upgrades you NEED to go air. 4-6 stargate voidray and high templar support with zealot multipronged harass until you can get critical mass of void rays. If he starts getting vikings start getting some carriers. Mass Voidray sounds good if you can get them up in time, but why react to Vikings with Carriers? Isn't that just another unit that Vikings do well against?
Honestly the only units vikings really don't do well against are immortals and zealots, but mostly carriers are there to draw viking volleys while your voidrays start killing them all... or if the terran is really bad the vikings will was shots on interceptors.
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Are there any macro-oriented PvT builds that also allow for an aggressive timing in the early-mid game? It seems PvT builds are either all-in or play defensive until the mid-late game. I was hoping for something equivalent to the 10min MMM push or 4 rax marine poke; a strong timing backed up by solid macro play, or an early poke that can snowball if the Terran is too greedy or reacts poorly.
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Italy12248 Posts
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On November 22 2012 03:02 MysteryHours wrote:
Are there any macro-oriented PvT builds that also allow for an aggressive timing in the early-mid game? It seems PvT builds are either all-in or play defensive until the mid-late game. I was hoping for something equivalent to the 10min MMM push or 4 rax marine poke; a strong timing backed up by solid macro play, or an early poke that can snowball if the Terran is too greedy or reacts poorly.
Well I know you can go add 3 gateways and go pressure with that after your 1 gate FE, where you get zealot stalker first. I think it's two gas for that. Or you can do I guess the build that HuK or who it was a long time ago, same build basically but you have 3-4 gateways before you put down your nexus. But I think it depends on what map and how well you can deny him scouting information, because if he knows it's coming you probably won't do much damage.
Also kind of risky against if they're doing a all-in, but hopefully you scout for that before deciding to do some pressure.
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On November 21 2012 22:11 hecticSc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:54 MysteryHours wrote:
What's the best composition against pure mech Terran with heavy Banshee? Don't listen to the guys before ... mech+banshee RAPES ANY GROUND ARMY. If you allow the terran to get enough factories and mech upgrades you NEED to go air. 4-6 stargate voidray and high templar support with zealot multipronged harass until you can get critical mass of void rays. If he starts getting vikings start getting some carriers.
Yeah it's true that mass banshee/mech wrecks ground armies pretty bad.
A much easier way to play against these shenanigans is just to get really aggressive on 2 base. If he's going for some kind of 2+port banshee build then go for a 5-6 gate blink obs after your fast expansion. If he's going for some mech composition as well then just blink on the tanks first since those will be doing the most dps. kite backwards and be careful not to get surrounded by scvs but in most cases you should just be able to kill them before they get to a critical mass.
Alternatively, if they have chosen to go for some 3-4 fact heavy tank play after an expansion then you can try a bulldog immortal drop style since they have hardly any anti-air. drop the immortals on the tanks and once the splash damage is gone you are safe to run in or warp in with reinforcements.
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Italy12248 Posts
On November 22 2012 08:16 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:11 hecticSc wrote:On November 21 2012 13:54 MysteryHours wrote:
What's the best composition against pure mech Terran with heavy Banshee? Don't listen to the guys before ... mech+banshee RAPES ANY GROUND ARMY. If you allow the terran to get enough factories and mech upgrades you NEED to go air. 4-6 stargate voidray and high templar support with zealot multipronged harass until you can get critical mass of void rays. If he starts getting vikings start getting some carriers. Alternatively, if they have chosen to go for some 3-4 fact heavy tank play after an expansion then you can try a bulldog immortal drop style since they have hardly any anti-air. drop the immortals on the tanks and once the splash damage is gone you are safe to run in or warp in with reinforcements.
I agree with this. Bulldog/immortal bust is really, really strong against tank openings in general...it's fun when terrans think they scared me with their 111 expand build, being all defensive and whatnot, and then 4 zealots drop on their tanks while i bust their front :D
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Replay: http://drop.sc/277802
I need help desperately with PvZ. I've quit playing Starcraft twice before over the period of 6 months because of this matchup and it's probably the reason I'm stuck in Platinum.
I feel like a lot of the time I'm either overwhelmed with units, have the wrong composition after a remax, can't prevent expansions because I feel vulnerable walking around the map, or he suddenly appears with broodlords and even with blink I cant fight broodlords because they force the worst positioning on me.
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On November 23 2012 00:14 Siipher wrote:Replay: http://drop.sc/277802I need help desperately with PvZ. I've quit playing Starcraft twice before over the period of 6 months because of this matchup and it's probably the reason I'm stuck in Platinum. I feel like a lot of the time I'm either overwhelmed with units, have the wrong composition after a remax, can't prevent expansions because I feel vulnerable walking around the map, or he suddenly appears with broodlords and even with blink I cant fight broodlords because they force the worst positioning on me.
Well, you cant fight broodlords "even" with blink when you don't have blink. Should have waited for it to finish, or started it WAY sooner when your +1 finished.
Either way, I'd reform your style entirely. You're turtling on 3 base and giving the zerg complete freedom throughout the entire midgame -- ontop of a slow third of your own. You either need to take a much faster third so that by the time you initially pushed (16min) out you hit a MUCH more powerful maxed +3 timing, or you need to layer pressure into your build. Stargate phoenix harass, speedprism harass, 4 gate pressure, etc. You're never going to keep up with a zerg.
Also, taldarim is a pretty crappy map for PvZ -- and PvP. Should be the first map you veto.
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EPT
