EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 374
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minilance
Canada500 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:25 Dubsy wrote: Is reactionary blink all in effective vs stargate openers? Ie I open 2 gate twilight, he opens one gate SG, if I drop 2 gates as soon as I see Phoenix can I kill him with an all in off one base or should I just insta expo? I lost a game recently where he was super greedy and expo'd the same time I did but it felt like I couldn't pressure with how many zealot sentry (plus grav beam obviously) he had at his front (this was on shakuras). It feels shitty having 10 blink stalkers sitting idly in your base while he chronos probes like its his job. I wouldn't recommend it. You can do a super fast blink allin with 3 gates like Parting did against Creator but a standard 4 gate blink-allin doesn't do that well against the phoenix player - except he messes up his forcefields and doesn't have a robo in time. Just try to expand faster, secure your mineral lines and make sure the phoenix player doesn't allin you with 4 gate + phoenix. | ||
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
Does anyone know of any games with archon follow ups off of 2 base. Your opponent will always be defending his nat ramp with Zealot/sentry/immo and teching to collossus 90% of the time. An archon blink stalker timing feels like it be super strong but now I'm theory crafting like a maniac. Anyone seen this in action? | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
http://drop.sc/278095 I had good reaction, nice micro and focus. He didn't even execute really well. And I still lost. Perhaps I shouldn't have dropped the Forge and would have had enough money for a second chronoed Zealot to finish of the Pylon. But still. Wow. So fucking OP. I would appreciate general tips to defend other cannon rushes. It seems to me that it takes an inordinate amount of skill to defend a cannon rush as opposed to the skill it requires to execute. It is sickening that an appallingly bad macro player like Gaulzi (without cannons he is literally mid-diamond level - vs grubby he lost 5 stalkers vs Grubby's 3...) takes games of seasoned pros. :/ Please help. Thanks. Sorry for the rant. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:57 Gumbi wrote: I am sick and tired of cannon rushing. I am considering writing an essay on how it is fundamentally overpowered in PvP. *Rage* What in the name of God am I supposed to do in this situation: http://drop.sc/278095 I had good reaction, nice micro and focus. He didn't even execute really well. And I still lost. Perhaps I shouldn't have dropped the Forge and would have had enough money for a second chronoed Zealot to finish of the Pylon. But still. Wow. So fucking OP. I would appreciate general tips to defend other cannon rushes. It seems to me that it takes an inordinate amount of skill to defend a cannon rush as opposed to the skill it requires to execute. It is sickening that an appallingly bad macro player like Gaulzi (without cannons he is literally mid-diamond level - vs grubby he lost 5 stalkers vs Grubby's 3...) takes games of seasoned pros. :/ Please help. Thanks. Sorry for the rant. Saw that only 3 probes attacked the left pylon. You could've avoided him to make the canon if you had 4+ probes attacking it (and yes you had the space for 2 more probes attacking it). Another possibility, is to scout like really fast in order to be prepared to all kind of all-in. Sure that's easier said than done and could make you get in a kind of disadvantage if he's actually not canon rushing and saved his probe scout for gathering, but it's still better than losing the game straight away. Finally, last but probably really unlikely to pull it off : send immediately a probe behind your minerals everytime you see a probe coming from the left or right instead of the front of your base (I know there are players that are fast @ reacting against it). | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
http://drop.sc/278202 Obviously he had an in-base orbital and got his 3rd up a little faster, but he didn't even saturate his 3rd. Our incomes didn't seem too far off, and I was spending my money, so I really don't understand why there was such a vast difference in army size. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:57 Gumbi wrote: I am sick and tired of cannon rushing. I am considering writing an essay on how it is fundamentally overpowered in PvP. *Rage* What in the name of God am I supposed to do in this situation: http://drop.sc/278095 I had good reaction, nice micro and focus. He didn't even execute really well. And I still lost. Perhaps I shouldn't have dropped the Forge and would have had enough money for a second chronoed Zealot to finish of the Pylon. But still. Wow. So fucking OP. I would appreciate general tips to defend other cannon rushes. It seems to me that it takes an inordinate amount of skill to defend a cannon rush as opposed to the skill it requires to execute. It is sickening that an appallingly bad macro player like Gaulzi (without cannons he is literally mid-diamond level - vs grubby he lost 5 stalkers vs Grubby's 3...) takes games of seasoned pros. :/ Please help. Thanks. Sorry for the rant. Hey. Couple things you should probably know. Daybreak is the #1 map on the ladder pool that people cannon rush in. If you would like, you can choose to auto-win against cannon rushes with minimal impact to your actual PVP game. Just put your starting pylon nestled in the back-middle of your minerals. Put your gateway towards your ramp, with a 1-square gap in between gate and pylon. It should look like this: ![[image loading]](http://www.freeimagehosting.net/t/333c3.jpg) As you can see, when I try to place a pylon (as if I were the evil Cannon Rusher), I only have 1 place to put it (where my mouse is), and my cannon has to go directly to the left of it. After the pylon is placed, the probe is going to be inside the block. And there will only be 1 pylon powering the cannon. And it will die momentarily after the cannon gets started, if you pull 4 probes to smash that block. You can probably take it from there. Does that make sense? Need clarification? -Cross | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
Raiz, I think your tips aren't too good, to be honest. I would be at quite a disadvantage if I were to employ those tips. On a 2 player map it is perfectly safe to 16 Pylon scout/core scout as long as I scout proxies vs all other builds. Pulling a Probe to chase the opponent's probe if he doesn't cannon rush puts me further behind again. | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On November 25 2012 01:26 Gumbi wrote: Thanks crosswind, that's a much better answer. Any tips for c rushes on other map? I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and sim city it on Daybreak. Raiz, I think your tips aren't too good, to be honest. I would be at quite a disadvantage if I were to employ those tips. On a 2 player map it is perfectly safe to 16 Pylon scout/core scout as long as I scout proxies vs all other builds. Pulling a Probe to chase the opponent's probe if he doesn't cannon rush puts me further behind again. I did a bit of homework in prep for answering this question, because there are a lot of maps out there, and I'm only super-familiar with crushing cannon rushes on Daybreak, because everybody does them there. Some points: 1.) I think it's really effing hard to do the in-mineral cannon rush almost anywhere else, because it takes a minimum of 4 blocking pylons. Looking at somebody like combatEX do this, this cannon rush hits at ~2:45 at the earliest. 2.) This is why I gateway scout in PVP - on Shakuras, a gateway scout gets to the SECOND base it explores at ~2:30. So you've got 15 seconds to be like OSHITCANNONRUSH and claim your instant win. 3.) If you want to be hyper-paranoid in general, you can just realize that, if a probe starts to head to your mineral line between 2:40 and whenever your scout hits, you should probably chase it with 2 probes. You only have to chase for like 15 seconds, so it's about a 20 mineral loss, total - pretty insignificant. 4.) If you want, you can block these cannon rushes too by building placement. Understand the principles of the cannon rush: 4a.) They almost always occur on one side of the mineral line. On symmetric maps (like Shakuras), you can do it on either side of the mineral line. 4b.) They will make an inner wall and an outer wall. On most maps (NOT DAYBREAK), the walls will be 4x2 - they'll take 2 pylons to make each wall. 4c.) They need room for a SECOND blocking pylon within the enclosed area, and a cannon - so at least 2 2x2 squares. 4d.) So if you place your first pylon to prevent an inner wall (put it in the middle 2x2 square of the 4x2), and your gateway to prevent the other inner wall, then their only choice is to make 2 outer walls - with one probe, if you're paying attention, which you should be, you can get probes behind your mineral line before the second wall goes up, because they're so far apart. I can give examples of applying (4)'s logic to every map in the game, but you can also figure it out yourself. =) Be sure to turn building grid on! Thus concludes Crosswind's Tiny Guide To Not Getting Cannon Rushed, Even By Dudes Who Know What They're Doing. -Cross (I understand that gateway scouts and chasing probes are technically sub-optimal, but I like to know, in PVP, whether or not they're taking 2 gas before cyber. Chasing probes is like a 30 mineral penalty - completely insignificant.) | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
On November 24 2012 23:45 Crosswind wrote: Hey. Couple things you should probably know. Daybreak is the #1 map on the ladder pool that people cannon rush in. If you would like, you can choose to auto-win against cannon rushes with minimal impact to your actual PVP game. Just put your starting pylon nestled in the back-middle of your minerals. Put your gateway towards your ramp, with a 1-square gap in between gate and pylon. It should look like this: As you can see, when I try to place a pylon (as if I were the evil Cannon Rusher), I only have 1 place to put it (where my mouse is), and my cannon has to go directly to the left of it. After the pylon is placed, the probe is going to be inside the block. And there will only be 1 pylon powering the cannon. And it will die momentarily after the cannon gets started, if you pull 4 probes to smash that block. You can probably take it from there. Does that make sense? Need clarification? -Cross In my experience if you leave a gap between your pylon and gateway like that it can lead to annoyances down the road with immortal/other drops, as your opponent can land units in that space and they can't be touched by zealots. I usually just build my gateway as close to that pylon as possible to prevent this scenario. A cannon rusher has a bit more space to work with, but generally probes attacking the pylon + a rallied zealot is more than enough to shut down a cannon rush pretty hard with this simcity. | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On November 25 2012 03:02 Chandra wrote: In my experience if you leave a gap between your pylon and gateway like that it can lead to annoyances down the road with immortal/other drops, as your opponent can land units in that space and they can't be touched by zealots. I usually just build my gateway as close to that pylon as possible to prevent this scenario. A cannon rusher has a bit more space to work with, but generally probes attacking the pylon + a rallied zealot is more than enough to shut down a cannon rush pretty hard with this simcity. Definitely true, though a careful immortal-dropper can screw you over for almost any behind-mineral-line simcitying. =) Shifting your gateway over one allows them to place down 1 more building - so they could potentially put a second pylon directly left of where my cursor is, then put their cannon right above that - you'd only be able to probe-attack the cannon with 2 probes, and probably couldn't kill the pylon before it was up. With practice, don't doubt that you can stop it, though. -Cross | ||
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Kunkle
Germany10 Posts
Thank you! | ||
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 25 2012 05:25 Kunkle wrote: Can anyone recommend a "playbook" PvT pro-replay? Preferably a recent one, so I can write down benchmarks and compare them to my own. I'm a Sliver level Protoss and really struggle with the PvT match up. I open 1 Gate FE into CreatorPrime style. Thank you! Any Creator game you can copy 100%. On November 25 2012 10:38 MysteryHours wrote: Against Zerg, how should I react if I poke his 3rd around 6:00-6:15 and no 3rd has been started? Do I assume an all-in at this point? Should I blindly throw down another cannon or two? What's the best way to scout further at this point? I assume an observer won't be ready in time. Is it worth it to sac a zealot to get a look in his base? 1. That's a late scout on 3rd, you should scout around 5 min. 2. Get your watch tower and rush to hallucination, phoenix or obs to see the tech, cuz you should see the push already coming if it was roaches or bananalings 3. It's 100% worth it to sac zealot for scouting at that point. 1 cannon is fine if you have the watch tower, otherwise adjust accordingly, the more sentries you can get the less cannons you need, so you need to judge, when and if the all in is coming. The earlier it hits, the more cannons you need. If you can get 3 sentries for the attack you need just 1. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On November 25 2012 10:38 MysteryHours wrote: Against Zerg, how should I react if I poke his 3rd around 6:00-6:15 and no 3rd has been started? Do I assume an all-in at this point? Should I blindly throw down another cannon or two? What's the best way to scout further at this point? I assume an observer won't be ready in time. Is it worth it to sac a zealot to get a look in his base? An all-in is possible, but it could just be faster tech into a delayed third. The standard reaction is getting a second cannon, sentries from the gateway, a stargate and to make sure you have vision all over your main. Ths will give you a fast scout and the tools for defending any immediate all-in. If you scout infestors or hydras with the phoenix, than you will need a robo. Before the phoenix scout, use zealot and probes to check outside your natural, keep the towers and to have vision on the possible pathways his units would be coming. If you already have a zealot or probe in position to check his natural, great. The more in the dark you are, the more inclined you should be to get a safety third cannon. | ||
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 25 2012 20:57 Extenz wrote: I need help in PvZ vs early pools when I FFE, making the wall asap and delaying the nexus hurts my economy and I never know what to do to punish it, I tried 4 gating but the zerg was on 3 bases with roaches when i came or he simply makes 3 spines when he sees no nexus, I dunno how to punish it if it's even possible. What kind of early pool? 6,7,8,9,10,11,12? What map? | ||
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