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On November 20 2012 07:39 wajd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 05:10 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 02:53 wajd wrote:On November 20 2012 00:43 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 00:11 wajd wrote:
I've been getting 6 pooled alot in PvZ. How do you hold this off when you plan on going FFE? No forge up or gateway...so what do you do? Let forge finish, build a pylon behind your mineral line, a cannon in the mineral line, a gateway in range of the cannon, cboost two zealots to push out the lings then expand and rebuild the forge at the choke with a core and take your gasses. Are you trying to nexus first on a 4 player map or something? I usually always put down a forge before nexus, unless i get lucky with an early scout and see there is no pressure coming. Lately I am seeing its a 6-pool just as I put down the forge. You should be okay then. The moment you see the early pool your instinct should be to slam down the pylon near your nexus immediately followed by a cannon then gateway, allowing the lings to kill the forge as it finishes. If the cannon doesn't finish before the lings arrive, surround the cannon with your probes on hold position. If he attacks your probes, mineral walk them away and run. If he attacks the cannon, attack the lings with the probes, etc. Afterwards if you see with your scouting probe that he's droning up/taking his natural, 2 zealots or a zealot with some probes will suffice to retake your natural and expand. Thats the economic way out, there are many other ways to play it from there. What if he keeps making lings and rallying them to my base?
you can another cannon before you lose your forge if you notice in time (which you will unless he went for the forge instead of beelining to your minerals). after that you can chrono a few zealots and add a core. once your stalker is out you can chase off slow lings.
what i keep losing to is 6 pool=>no damage=>mass spines at natural to defend a 1base counter attack=>muta/ling. i never seem to have the economy to make enough stalkers to defend this after making a tonne of zealot/sentry to deal with lings running around.
is it best to just expand asap if i see spines at zergs natural? i hate losing to a zerg who greedily powers drones afterwards but i don't know how to punish it besides immediately counter attacking once i've stabilised. do 2 base all ins to follow up come fast enough? if it does i'll just start doing a 7gate blink all in to follow up since that'll keep me safe from the mutas
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I need help with tech and timing. I usually get a decent army but end up losing in the end do to not having the right tech/any tech.
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On November 20 2012 07:58 McTeazy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 07:39 wajd wrote:On November 20 2012 05:10 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 02:53 wajd wrote:On November 20 2012 00:43 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 00:11 wajd wrote:
I've been getting 6 pooled alot in PvZ. How do you hold this off when you plan on going FFE? No forge up or gateway...so what do you do? Let forge finish, build a pylon behind your mineral line, a cannon in the mineral line, a gateway in range of the cannon, cboost two zealots to push out the lings then expand and rebuild the forge at the choke with a core and take your gasses. Are you trying to nexus first on a 4 player map or something? I usually always put down a forge before nexus, unless i get lucky with an early scout and see there is no pressure coming. Lately I am seeing its a 6-pool just as I put down the forge. You should be okay then. The moment you see the early pool your instinct should be to slam down the pylon near your nexus immediately followed by a cannon then gateway, allowing the lings to kill the forge as it finishes. If the cannon doesn't finish before the lings arrive, surround the cannon with your probes on hold position. If he attacks your probes, mineral walk them away and run. If he attacks the cannon, attack the lings with the probes, etc. Afterwards if you see with your scouting probe that he's droning up/taking his natural, 2 zealots or a zealot with some probes will suffice to retake your natural and expand. Thats the economic way out, there are many other ways to play it from there. What if he keeps making lings and rallying them to my base? you can another cannon before you lose your forge if you notice in time (which you will unless he went for the forge instead of beelining to your minerals). after that you can chrono a few zealots and add a core. once your stalker is out you can chase off slow lings. what i keep losing to is 6 pool=>no damage=>mass spines at natural to defend a 1base counter attack=>muta/ling. i never seem to have the economy to make enough stalkers to defend this after making a tonne of zealot/sentry to deal with lings running around. is it best to just expand asap if i see spines at zergs natural? i hate losing to a zerg who greedily powers drones afterwards but i don't know how to punish it besides immediately counter attacking once i've stabilised. do 2 base all ins to follow up come fast enough? if it does i'll just start doing a 7gate blink all in to follow up since that'll keep me safe from the mutas
You should be expanding asap regardless. You don't need a lot of zealots/sentries to deal with lings either. Assuming he made 6 lings to delay the Nexus as you stated, two zealots are more than sufficient to reclaim your natural, reestablish the wall and deter any and all zergling shenanigans. From there it's just the same old PvZ: he power drones while taking a third and you have the option to kill it or take your own.
You really shouldn't be trying to one base an economic 6 pool either, they should never lose to it unless they're really bad. At this point though I'm not sure if you're referring to mutas that follow up after you fail a one base all-in, or mutas in general.
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On November 20 2012 08:08 lonecricket wrote:
I need help with tech and timing. I usually get a decent army but end up losing in the end do to not having the right tech/any tech.
Too vague. What match-up and what specific opening/style are you playing/your opponent's playing that you're having these problems in? Replays may help in providing a better answer.
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On November 20 2012 08:22 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 08:08 lonecricket wrote:
I need help with tech and timing. I usually get a decent army but end up losing in the end do to not having the right tech/any tech. Too vague. What match-up and what specific opening/style are you playing/your opponent's playing that you're having these problems in? Replays may help in providing a better answer.
I just macro as hard as possible usually going 1-2 gate opening
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On November 20 2012 08:30 lonecricket wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 08:22 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 08:08 lonecricket wrote:
I need help with tech and timing. I usually get a decent army but end up losing in the end do to not having the right tech/any tech. Too vague. What match-up and what specific opening/style are you playing/your opponent's playing that you're having these problems in? Replays may help in providing a better answer. I just macro as hard as possible usually going 1-2 gate opening
Match-ups are important too, as teching varies between the three. What works in PvT gets you killed in PvP, etc.
It also sounds like you don't really have any direction beyond the early game as to how you want to win the game. If there isn't a particular player/style you're looking for, I suggest checking out the builds in the recommended threads and see if theres anything that suites your style. The builds will explain much more thoroughly how to tech with perspective on the match-up and late game goal.
Otherwise, a very general and basic answer is to grab sentries and a robo/forge as you expand, start upgrades while using an observer to check out your opponent's tech while you work your way towards colossus. Start twilight council as +1 is almost done, start blink or charge, and slam down the templar archives when you're on three base and can afford the colossus production.
Basic goal is to be on three base with colossus/storms (or archons), +3 attack and a bunch of gateways to reinforce your push.
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i got owned in a PvT today, he Hellion harassed me very early and put me behind. any tips? i thought an early sentry maybe to FF my ramp. idk
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On November 20 2012 09:33 HomieStoney wrote:
i got owned in a PvT today, he Hellion harassed me very early and put me behind. any tips? i thought an early sentry maybe to FF my ramp. idk
As in he sent hellions through your natural, or dropped them -- or both? Two stalkers can hold position on your ramp and stop the hellions from getting up, though you still need stalkers in your natural/main to prevent runby's drops from getting in -- assuming you expanded.
If you know what to scout for, you can see this coming pretty early. You don't always see a Terran grab a gas, but if they take their gas and produce nothing but marines, it's fairly indicative of factory tech. Cloaked banshees, hellions, hellion run-bys; all of which require stalkers. If you do see this, 6-8 stalkers should be more than enough to deflect hellions/medivacs with observers to help see them to react better.
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On November 20 2012 08:09 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 07:58 McTeazy wrote:On November 20 2012 07:39 wajd wrote:On November 20 2012 05:10 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 02:53 wajd wrote:On November 20 2012 00:43 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 00:11 wajd wrote:
I've been getting 6 pooled alot in PvZ. How do you hold this off when you plan on going FFE? No forge up or gateway...so what do you do? Let forge finish, build a pylon behind your mineral line, a cannon in the mineral line, a gateway in range of the cannon, cboost two zealots to push out the lings then expand and rebuild the forge at the choke with a core and take your gasses. Are you trying to nexus first on a 4 player map or something? I usually always put down a forge before nexus, unless i get lucky with an early scout and see there is no pressure coming. Lately I am seeing its a 6-pool just as I put down the forge. You should be okay then. The moment you see the early pool your instinct should be to slam down the pylon near your nexus immediately followed by a cannon then gateway, allowing the lings to kill the forge as it finishes. If the cannon doesn't finish before the lings arrive, surround the cannon with your probes on hold position. If he attacks your probes, mineral walk them away and run. If he attacks the cannon, attack the lings with the probes, etc. Afterwards if you see with your scouting probe that he's droning up/taking his natural, 2 zealots or a zealot with some probes will suffice to retake your natural and expand. Thats the economic way out, there are many other ways to play it from there. What if he keeps making lings and rallying them to my base? you can another cannon before you lose your forge if you notice in time (which you will unless he went for the forge instead of beelining to your minerals). after that you can chrono a few zealots and add a core. once your stalker is out you can chase off slow lings. what i keep losing to is 6 pool=>no damage=>mass spines at natural to defend a 1base counter attack=>muta/ling. i never seem to have the economy to make enough stalkers to defend this after making a tonne of zealot/sentry to deal with lings running around. is it best to just expand asap if i see spines at zergs natural? i hate losing to a zerg who greedily powers drones afterwards but i don't know how to punish it besides immediately counter attacking once i've stabilised. do 2 base all ins to follow up come fast enough? if it does i'll just start doing a 7gate blink all in to follow up since that'll keep me safe from the mutas You should be expanding asap regardless. You don't need a lot of zealots/sentries to deal with lings either. Assuming he made 6 lings to delay the Nexus as you stated, two zealots are more than sufficient to reclaim your natural, reestablish the wall and deter any and all zergling shenanigans. From there it's just the same old PvZ: he power drones while taking a third and you have the option to kill it or take your own. You really shouldn't be trying to one base an economic 6 pool either, they should never lose to it unless they're really bad. At this point though I'm not sure if you're referring to mutas that follow up after you fail a one base all-in, or mutas in general.
Yeah, i basically 4gate 6 pools because i've lost to super drone powering later on. I guess a 2 base timing is a better choice. I'll start following up with that.
But mostly i was referring to zealots/sentries to deal with more lings following up once speed is done.
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On November 20 2012 10:03 McTeazy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 08:09 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 07:58 McTeazy wrote:On November 20 2012 07:39 wajd wrote:On November 20 2012 05:10 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 02:53 wajd wrote:On November 20 2012 00:43 rd wrote:On November 20 2012 00:11 wajd wrote:
I've been getting 6 pooled alot in PvZ. How do you hold this off when you plan on going FFE? No forge up or gateway...so what do you do? Let forge finish, build a pylon behind your mineral line, a cannon in the mineral line, a gateway in range of the cannon, cboost two zealots to push out the lings then expand and rebuild the forge at the choke with a core and take your gasses. Are you trying to nexus first on a 4 player map or something? I usually always put down a forge before nexus, unless i get lucky with an early scout and see there is no pressure coming. Lately I am seeing its a 6-pool just as I put down the forge. You should be okay then. The moment you see the early pool your instinct should be to slam down the pylon near your nexus immediately followed by a cannon then gateway, allowing the lings to kill the forge as it finishes. If the cannon doesn't finish before the lings arrive, surround the cannon with your probes on hold position. If he attacks your probes, mineral walk them away and run. If he attacks the cannon, attack the lings with the probes, etc. Afterwards if you see with your scouting probe that he's droning up/taking his natural, 2 zealots or a zealot with some probes will suffice to retake your natural and expand. Thats the economic way out, there are many other ways to play it from there. What if he keeps making lings and rallying them to my base? you can another cannon before you lose your forge if you notice in time (which you will unless he went for the forge instead of beelining to your minerals). after that you can chrono a few zealots and add a core. once your stalker is out you can chase off slow lings. what i keep losing to is 6 pool=>no damage=>mass spines at natural to defend a 1base counter attack=>muta/ling. i never seem to have the economy to make enough stalkers to defend this after making a tonne of zealot/sentry to deal with lings running around. is it best to just expand asap if i see spines at zergs natural? i hate losing to a zerg who greedily powers drones afterwards but i don't know how to punish it besides immediately counter attacking once i've stabilised. do 2 base all ins to follow up come fast enough? if it does i'll just start doing a 7gate blink all in to follow up since that'll keep me safe from the mutas You should be expanding asap regardless. You don't need a lot of zealots/sentries to deal with lings either. Assuming he made 6 lings to delay the Nexus as you stated, two zealots are more than sufficient to reclaim your natural, reestablish the wall and deter any and all zergling shenanigans. From there it's just the same old PvZ: he power drones while taking a third and you have the option to kill it or take your own. You really shouldn't be trying to one base an economic 6 pool either, they should never lose to it unless they're really bad. At this point though I'm not sure if you're referring to mutas that follow up after you fail a one base all-in, or mutas in general. Yeah, i basically 4gate 6 pools because i've lost to super drone powering later on. I guess a 2 base timing is a better choice. I'll start following up with that. But mostly i was referring to zealots/sentries to deal with more lings following up once speed is done.
You don't have to deal with them though, you have a wall. And if you're going to all-in and are worried about mutas, your 2 base all-in would presumably hit before or just as they're hatched anyways, so warping in a lot of zealots/sentries initially so you can move out and deal with the lings shouldn't be a big issue on 6-7 gateways where you can reinforce with stalkers.
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What's a good cheese I can use against all 3 races when going up against a random?
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On November 20 2012 11:26 MysteryHours wrote:
What's a good cheese I can use against all 3 races when going up against a random?
I think a DT expand build would be your best bet for a cheesy opener than can work well vs all three races. It's not even cheese in PvP (listed as "semi-standard on the recommended strat thread).
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On November 20 2012 11:26 MysteryHours wrote:
What's a good cheese I can use against all 3 races when going up against a random?
Unless you want to proxy 2 gate/cannon rush, you can pretty easily scout a random player on most maps before committing to an all-in where you might not even know their race.
If you're concerned with zerg opponents though, which is what I assume, you can 3gr immortal all-in. Open 1 gate robo on 2 gas, spam immortals and sentries, and pick an immortal count you're comfortable moving out with, then throw down a fourth gate so it finishes as you arrive, where it then essentially turns into a 4 gate with a handfull of sentries and a few immortals. Usually hits at around 7~. Viable in all PvX match-ups, with lots of room for variation.
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On November 20 2012 11:26 MysteryHours wrote:
What's a good cheese I can use against all 3 races when going up against a random?
proxy 2 gate. On 4player maps, you need to scout with two probes in order to scout him out ASAP.
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Scenario: You take an early third in a PvZ matchup and hold the timing attack of roaches and zerglings with immortal / sentry and some cannons. Your observer scouts a completed spire and your blink comes in. As a reaction you throw down the templar archives a couple additional gateways and go into full blink stalker production dividing them among your 3 bases. The first muta harass hits and you fend it off. You have the option to warp in enough high templar for 4 archons and your +3 weapons upgrade comes in. Do you have a timing window of attack before storm completes by morphing 4 archons and pressing with blinkstalker / 6 sentry / 1 immortal / 4 archon, and using the spare minerals towards zeals to harass additional expos and/or cannons.
This scenario has came up many times for me on the ladder and also while I was watching a stream. Most of the time on the ladder I win with this window (or so it seems like a window) but I was also told that it is completely impossible and that the only option is for protoss to wait it out for storm. My question is what is everyone else's thoughts, at the highest level of play is this window of opportunity viable. This does not exclude in anyway the research of storm, it is a small timing window from the time that the templar archives completes, to the time that storm research comes in designed to strike when zerg desperately need the mutalisks to buy time.
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On November 20 2012 15:07 DanceSC wrote:
Scenario: You take an early third in a PvZ matchup and hold the timing attack of roaches and zerglings with immortal / sentry and some cannons. Your observer scouts a completed spire and your blink comes in. As a reaction you throw down the templar archives a couple additional gateways and go into full blink stalker production dividing them among your 3 bases. The first muta harass hits and you fend it off. You have the option to warp in enough high templar for 4 archons and your +3 weapons upgrade comes in. Do you have a timing window of attack before storm completes by morphing 4 archons and pressing with blinkstalker / 6 sentry / 1 immortal / 4 archon, and using the spare minerals towards zeals to harass additional expos and/or cannons.
This scenario has came up many times for me on the ladder and also while I was watching a stream. Most of the time on the ladder I win with this window (or so it seems like a window) but I was also told that it is completely impossible and that the only option is for protoss to wait it out for storm. My question is what is everyone else's thoughts, at the highest level of play is this window of opportunity viable. This does not exclude in anyway the research of storm, it is a small timing window from the time that the templar archives completes, to the time that storm research comes in designed to strike when zerg desperately need the mutalisks to buy time.
I think timing windows like this vary from game to game. It depends on how much has he invested into mutas and how well you defended as well as how much you killed. I think if you see him playing greedy and isn't making anything else but teching then pushing onto the map is a good idea. For these kinds of pushes i would bring a warpprism along to warp in zealots or stalkers as well as leave two-3 hts at home to gain energy for storm. This way you have a follow-up window were you can push again when storm completes
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On November 20 2012 14:52 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 11:26 MysteryHours wrote:
What's a good cheese I can use against all 3 races when going up against a random? Unless you want to proxy 2 gate/cannon rush, you can pretty easily scout a random player on most maps before committing to an all-in where you might not even know their race. If you're concerned with zerg opponents though, which is what I assume, you can 3gr immortal all-in. Open 1 gate robo on 2 gas, spam immortals and sentries, and pick an immortal count you're comfortable moving out with, then throw down a fourth gate so it finishes as you arrive, where it then essentially turns into a 4 gate with a handfull of sentries and a few immortals. Usually hits at around 7~. Viable in all PvX match-ups, with lots of room for variation.
Ya I think this is the best answer. You don't need to choose a blind all-in. You can scout and then decide which all in you want to do. The only benefit of proxy 2gating a random player is that sometimes they delay their scout to delay you from knowing what race they play.
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Rep and the strat im trying is listed below the text. Im eu diamond toss.
I am always struggling with stim medivac timing. In this game, terran is greedy in early game and make his 10min push even stronger, I just got roflstomped.
When i was trying this build, i don't pressure early on. It seems like my tech will be delayed and i will have a hard time later if i don't deal enough damage there. In this game I fail to scout with my zealot and stalker. My macro must be the real problem. And that foolish engagement, should have just ff away.
How can i scout this timing as early as possible, and should i change my plan to this specific strat? Any tips aside from this game is also welcome.
http://drop.sc/277218
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=364130 (pvt Startale 2 Base Templar)
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Whats the best way to tech to storm/archon against zerg?
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in PvZ, if I scout Roach, I prepare for Roach. But then get Muta-harassed. Does the zerg player see I scouted him early and changes his tech, or is this a basic zerg build? How do I rebound from this as the muta harass becomes too much...?
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EPT
