EPTAt the pro levels, apparently PvP was basically a coinflip some time ago. Is that still the case? If so, is it a coin-flip at lower levels as well, or is there more opportunity to get a good win-rate there?
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 384
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
At the pro levels, apparently PvP was basically a coinflip some time ago. Is that still the case? If so, is it a coin-flip at lower levels as well, or is there more opportunity to get a good win-rate there? | ||
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
Call the map daybreak. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 14 2012 15:17 Salivanth wrote: Considering going back to Protoss, but PvP is an issue. So, my question: At the pro levels, apparently PvP was basically a coinflip some time ago. Is that still the case? If so, is it a coin-flip at lower levels as well, or is there more opportunity to get a good win-rate there? PvP is less coin-flippy than it was, but it's still the most luck-oriented match-up in the game. Every build you can choose has a chance to be solidly countered by your opponent's build, and you can't scout in time to play reactively. That said, well-executed expansion builds tend to be held more often than not, so they've become frequent despite not being 100% safe. If both players expand, you tend to get adequate scouting information to play the rest of the game reactively. And if one player expands while the other doesn't, the game is usually decided by skill rather than luck, although there are certainly exceptions. For example, if you expand and get a fast immortal expecting a blink attack and he instead goes DTs into an archon push, you're screwed. | ||
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kaNt-
163 Posts
If you actually use the 3 stalker rush to deny proxy pylon in your base/natural, do you have to get outside your natural to scout, or you just sit at the ramp of your main with your 3 stalkers? What is considered a safe, economic build in PvP? I the fact that PvP at the early stages of the game (until 8-9 minutes) seems to be like a rock, paper, scissor. Example: Phoenix>Robo, DT>Phoenix, Robo>DT, Blink Stalkers>Phoenix. Is there any opening in PvP that is safe, decently economic and that can stop any allin push like 4gate, DT, phoenix and colossi/immortal rush? Please i need help! Thanks. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
On December 15 2012 01:11 Dubsy wrote: What is the proper response to 10 pool with an in-base forge (forge first and/or nexus first). Call the map daybreak. Get your cannon up asap in your min line. The cannon must be placed so that it protects the forge and one assim. It should protect your entire min line from lings. Lose as little probes as possible while building the cannon, if any. Keep building workers, get gateway tech, make zealots, then sentries. Attempt to expand off one gate. Try to keep your original scouting probe alive so you can scout his expo timing (so that you can do yours). I like to get halluc to scout the zerg, as you'll have plenty of energy on the sentries. It's vital that you position your zeal/sentry force correctly when expanding, as zergs sometimes mass speedling in an attempt to delay yours, so be watchful, make your ff count! I like to do a sentry/zeal plus 1 gateway attack to force units from the zerg, you don't want him droning like mad. Typical zerg builds revolve around mutas in this situation, so your halluc scouting is imperative. Just macro carefully and you should be fine. | ||
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strike.ger
6 Posts
I love this build, and i love to play Chargelot Archon into Koloss. But i dont know, what i have to do, when the Terran scans the DT shire or when he has an Turret at ~7:30. When he scans the shrine, i cancel him most of the time and build a Temp Archiv. But what would you do, when he has an Turret and u run up his ramp? Most time i go back take a Froge, Charge, more Gates, the i try to hold Medivac timing, after that 3rd Base and Double Robo Kolossi. Is this right? Or is there a better way, when Terran scouts the Shrine? (Low Master level) | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 15 2012 02:28 Gumbi wrote: Get your cannon up asap in your min line. The cannon must be placed so that it protects the forge and one assim. It should protect your entire min line from lings. Lose as little probes as possible while building the cannon, if any. Keep building workers, get gateway tech, make zealots, then sentries. Attempt to expand off one gate. Try to keep your original scouting probe alive so you can scout his expo timing (so that you can do yours). I like to get halluc to scout the zerg, as you'll have plenty of energy on the sentries. It's vital that you position your zeal/sentry force correctly when expanding, as zergs sometimes mass speedling in an attempt to delay yours, so be watchful, make your ff count! I like to do a sentry/zeal plus 1 gateway attack to force units from the zerg, you don't want him droning like mad. Typical zerg builds revolve around mutas in this situation, so your halluc scouting is imperative. Just macro carefully and you should be fine. This sounds like a recipe for falling way, way behind against a 10 pool. I'm not an expert on this, but I think you're kind of screwed with an in-base forge against a 10 pool. What I'd recommend is a quick pylon on the low ground next to your natural and a cannon as close to your ramp as you can get it with the cannon still covering the spot where your nexus will go. Pull probes when the lings show up to stop them from running up your ramp or killing your pylon. Micro back injured probes, and then start a nexus as soon as you can. The big problem with in-base forge is you can't wall off against pool timings between 8 and 11. Against a 6 or a 7 pool, you can do an in-base cannon and you're at least even because they cut so much to do the attack. And against a 14 or 15 pool, you have the cannon up in time so run-bys aren't a problem. But those in-between timings where Zerg hasn't completely crippled their economy but you also don't have time to defend properly give you trouble. In-base forge is a risk for this reason. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 15 2012 02:26 kaNt- wrote: What is the most reliable way to stop/delay any 4 gate rush attempt? 3 stalker rush? If you actually use the 3 stalker rush to deny proxy pylon in your base/natural, do you have to get outside your natural to scout, or you just sit at the ramp of your main with your 3 stalkers? What is considered a safe, economic build in PvP? I the fact that PvP at the early stages of the game (until 8-9 minutes) seems to be like a rock, paper, scissor. Example: Phoenix>Robo, DT>Phoenix, Robo>DT, Blink Stalkers>Phoenix. Is there any opening in PvP that is safe, decently economic and that can stop any allin push like 4gate, DT, phoenix and colossi/immortal rush? Please i need help! Thanks. 3 stalkers can prevent a 4 gate, but it's pretty overkill for the purpose of defending a four gate if you weren't going to use those 3 stalkers for anything else, as it'll delay most builds significantly. Otherwise, the 3 stalkers have to be pretty active, splitting up to control towers and scour possible probe/proxy locations while simultaneously micro'ing against his zealot/stalker push. And if he isn't 4 gating, they need to be in his natural threatening to bust the ramp, as he'll likely only have a zealot/sentry. Most good builds rely on solid sentry timings, with good reaction and control to focus the probe coming up the ramp with the zealot/sentry to deny vision, then continually warping in sentries to prevent him from getting up the ramp. In this way, when you know a four gate isn't coming, you don't have to warp-in the extra sentries, giving you more gas for whatever tech you planned to open. Robo and Phoenix builds are fairly solid vs all openings. With robo builds you won't auto-lose to phoenixes, but you'll have an uphill battle. With phoenix builds you get to deal with the ridiculousness of phoenix vs phoenix. Otherwise both styles hold most all-ins fairly well. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On December 15 2012 03:10 kcdc wrote: This sounds like a recipe for falling way, way behind against a 10 pool. I'm not an expert on this, but I think you're kind of screwed with an in-base forge against a 10 pool. What I'd recommend is a quick pylon on the low ground next to your natural and a cannon as close to your ramp as you can get it with the cannon still covering the spot where your nexus will go. Pull probes when the lings show up to stop them from running up your ramp or killing your pylon. Micro back injured probes, and then start a nexus as soon as you can. The big problem with in-base forge is you can't wall off against pool timings between 8 and 11. Against a 6 or a 7 pool, you can do an in-base cannon and you're at least even because they cut so much to do the attack. And against a 14 or 15 pool, you have the cannon up in time so run-bys aren't a problem. But those in-between timings where Zerg hasn't completely crippled their economy but you also don't have time to defend properly give you trouble. In-base forge is a risk for this reason. What is the alternative then? If you don't in base forge against a 6 or 7 pool find you end up quite far behind considering the map control and options available to zerg at that point. At least with an in base forge, you can make a cannon low ground to help you expand | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On December 15 2012 05:12 kcdc wrote: Forge at natural is standard. You're pretty even against a 7 pool with a forge at your natural followed by a cannon in your mineral line. You lose the pylon and the forge, but Zerg is behind in workers. From there, you do a gateway expand. I like to proxy 2 gateways for zealot pressure on his natural, but I don't think that's standard. I never find im even after the 7 pool. Even losing no probes i feel behind all game and I need to do a 3 gate expand is my usual response. The issue being that some zergs get a bunch of roaches, others banelings, some speed and some macro. I never know whats coming and I can't scout once the queen is out. In the past before 5 range my probe could sneak in a view of at least one extractor but not since they shoot farther. | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
On December 15 2012 05:12 kcdc wrote: Forge at natural is standard. You're pretty even against a 7 pool with a forge at your natural followed by a cannon in your mineral line. You lose the pylon and the forge, but Zerg is behind in workers. From there, you do a gateway expand. I like to proxy 2 gateways for zealot pressure on his natural, but I don't think that's standard. How much success you get with proxy 2 gates against 6-7 pool play? For me to play after that pool after the cannon in the mineral line is the toughest thing for me in PvZ bar playing vs Broodlord Infestor because I just cant seem to take the nat expansion without being massively behind. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 15 2012 06:20 ZeromuS wrote: I never find im even after the 7 pool. Even losing no probes i feel behind all game and I need to do a 3 gate expand is my usual response. The issue being that some zergs get a bunch of roaches, others banelings, some speed and some macro. I never know whats coming and I can't scout once the queen is out. In the past before 5 range my probe could sneak in a view of at least one extractor but not since they shoot farther. Can't you get a sense of whether they're continuing aggression by looking at their hatch timing? Try the proxy technique. IMO, you get into trouble against 7 pool because despite having double Z's workers, you can't really pressure or expand as quickly as you'd like. Proxying 2 gates a little ways outside of his natural lets you pressure and stops him from catching up in workers. It sounds cheesy, but it seems to work consistently. Anyway, with in-base forge, you're in trouble against 7 pool. With forge at natural, you're in trouble against 7 pool. Pick your poison. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On December 15 2012 06:42 kcdc wrote: Can't you get a sense of whether they're continuing aggression by looking at their hatch timing? Try the proxy technique. IMO, you get into trouble against 7 pool because despite having double Z's workers, you can't really pressure or expand as quickly as you'd like. Proxying 2 gates a little ways outside of his natural lets you pressure and stops him from catching up in workers. It sounds cheesy, but it seems to work consistently. Anyway, with in-base forge, you're in trouble against 7 pool. With forge at natural, you're in trouble against 7 pool. Pick your poison. True, I just think that keeping the forge alive can help you expand again with a smaller army couldn't it? I never do well with the lose no probes follow up so maybe I will try your proxy gates idea. | ||
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DropTester
Australia608 Posts
The variation I find the hardest to hold is when the terran continues to build banshees and sends his scvs with the push, I've tried staying on top of the ramp but he just camps at the bottom and I'm stuck at the top. When I try to move down I feel like the banshees will pick off the collusus so it won't be much help. I guess the question would be should I expand after scouting the 1-1-1 with gate-robo-gate or stay on 1 base? Also reading QTIP's 1-1-1 guide from a while back it says to warp in stalkers after the engagement begins, against the 1-1-1 described where it goes to 3-4 banshees with above is it better to warp in stalkers after the engagement begins or before? I feel like if I warp them in afterwards they get picked off too easily. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On December 15 2012 22:29 Salivanth wrote: What should I do against a random who rolls Zerg? I always FFE vs. Zerg, but can't do that vs. random Zergs, and I don't want to learn a brand new style for those 1-2% of games in which I'll face one. And some dumb all-in like a 4-gate will probably never work. Are there any all-ins off 1 base in PvZ that aren't stupid? I suggest just learning a good gateway/core expand opening, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#1.3 One base all-ins in PvZ are terribad. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
Next question: Are there any good 2-base all-ins in PvP? I'm learning 2-base timings to get back into the swing of Protoss macro, but the only PvP all-ins I know are 1-base. Hell, I don't even know how to play a macro PvP anymore. | ||
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