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I've recently stumbled upon what I think is a really exciting technique that provides a significant boost to Protoss when pressuring an early hive-stage Zerg--the Five Phoenix SWAT Team. For reference, standard play at this timing involves Protoss on 3 bases, Zerg on 4 bases with spines, infestors and broodlords on the way. Zerg's goal is to stabilize on a large infestor+broodlord composition that Protoss can't really beat. Protoss's goal is to deal damage with both drops and head-on attacks to prevent Zerg from reaching their unbeatable army.
There are two primary Protoss compositions at this stage: colossi+blink stalkers and zealot+immortal+templar. I prefer the latter composition because it's much sturdier for cost and allows for more powerful aggression, but the stalker+colossus composition provides utility in its greater range and its stronger but more expensive maxed army. Notably, the colossus composition usually can't directly engage spine crawler walls, but the zealot composition often can.
So I've been doing my zealot+immortal+templar pushes with mothership and a fourth base behind the push, and it's been reasonably effective. If there are too many spines up front, I'll do good damage with 3/3 chargelot drops. If they're defending my drops well, I have a good shot to break their front. Spines eventually fall and broods are vulnerable if left without sufficient infestor support, so defending my attacks is all about infestor retention.
But notably, my theory that templar would consistently kill Zerg's infestors (preventing that critical caster retention) hasn't really panned out. Feedback is helpful of course, but often the infestors run back behind the spines coming out one at a time to fungal or lobbing a mass of IT's and scurrying away. Meanwhile, my templar would get caught behind fungaled zealots, and while I'd spam my feedback commands, the miserably slow templar just didn't seem to get in range often enough. And many of the infestors that I did feedback were too low on energy to die. I even tried putting templar in a warp prism to help them get over the fray and in range to feedback, but I still wasn't killing enough infestors to consistently destabilize Zerg's broodlord transition.
Finally, I tried a new infestor-assassination technique--the Five Phoenix SWAT Team. This technique draws inspiration from BW where Zerg would make a small batch of mutas to pick off templar, thereby supporting their hydra army. In limited testing of the flying support squad in SC2, I've been amazed at how much utility you get got out of such a small investment. For 750/500, you get an assassin squad that instantly flies over the fray to pick off the high-value infestors, but I quickly discovered that the phoenixes are useful for much more than that. At this timing, you have activities going all over the map. You're dropping, attacking, defending counters, etc. And the phoenixes are fast enough to support everything all at once.
They'll support your main push by swinging in from a flank to pick off infestors. Then when you pull back your main force, the phoenixes fly over to support your drop, and on the way, they'll spot a counter-attack heading for your fourth. After they pick off a queen to save your warp prism, they speed over to your fourth base to help save your nexus. And when the remaining infestors show up in Zerg's main to defend the drop, your phoenixes zoom back to your main push to pick off the now-unsupported broodlords that your ground army can't reach. It's really amazing how useful that fast, flying component to your army is.
Importantly, I don't think phoenixes are at all an answer in a head-on fight. You don't want to produce a true combat force of phoenixes--they will die against infestors and corruptors. In the context of a chaotic map where Zerg is scrambling on multiple fronts and doesn't have enough infestor energy, it's easy to pick off infestors with 5 phoenixes. But if you produced 10 or 15 phoenixes, not only would you lose your ability to control the ground war, but your phoenixes would suddenly become a very juicy fungal target. I've seen games where Protoss tries to win air superiority with range-upgraded phoenixes, and I don't think it's a viable solution at high levels.
But I do think a utility team of 5 phoenixes is an extremely useful addition to an aggressive zealot/immortal/templar composition. With just 10 supply in phoenixes, your ground army is dominant enough to make Zerg scramble, and that chaos creates openings where your phoenixes can provide mobile support and deal damage without having to engage anything that actually returns fire.
For what it's worth, this is a brand new idea, and I've only tested it in about 10 games, but in those 10 games, Zerg has not once managed to stabilize on their hive tech army. Granted, my zealot/immortal/templar push is doing the vast majority of the work, but the phoenix squad seems to provide a mobile, flexible component that lets me continue trading effectively on multiple fronts where I otherwise couldn't. For such a tiny investment off of 3 bases, it's hard for me to imagine why this wouldn't be a viable addition to standard play.
Here are some replays:
http://drop.sc/283812
http://drop.sc/283813
http://drop.sc/283814
http://drop.sc/283536
http://drop.sc/283373
http://drop.sc/283358
So my questions are:
-Should this become standard?
-Is it worth delaying the mothership for 5 phoenixes?
-What does Zerg do in response?
-Could the phoenix squad also support a colossus composition, or is it only worth doing if you go zealot/immortal/templar?
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I've always imagined doing something like this, but i've never actually done it. Might try it out.
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Hmm, seems gimmicky in that you rely heavily on your opponent making a huge, game-ending mistake (not fungaling Phoenix, not splitting units correctly against drops, etc). What happens if the Zerg just burrows his infestors?
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I'd like to the most marginal amount of credit for throwing this idea your way in the Carrier transition thread.
In practice for me the phoenixs have worked with my colosus/stalker composition, usually because blink allows me to force the infestors/corruptors into angles where they can't effectively deal with my phoenix's as well (phnx are fast enough to establish great flanks without really being caught)
Unfortunately, I'm only playing at a high diamond/low masters level, so I really don't know the viability with the collo/stalker composition the higher up the skill tree you go.
On December 13 2012 03:37 HelloSon wrote:
Hmm, seems gimmicky in that you rely heavily on your opponent making a huge, game-ending mistake (not fungaling Phoenix, not splitting units correctly against drops, etc). What happens if the Zerg just burrows his infestors?
Burrow means they're not casting fungal, and your phoenix can be used to kill a brood or two as well. I've also found using the phoenix swat team is great for keeping a brood army from getting too nice of a split, as lots of zergs run them away from your phoenix hit squad allowing for more devastating vortexes
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On December 13 2012 03:37 HelloSon wrote:
Hmm, seems gimmicky in that you rely heavily on your opponent making a huge, game-ending mistake (not fungaling Phoenix, not splitting units correctly against drops, etc). What happens if the Zerg just burrows his infestors?
I totally disagree. There's nothing gimmicky about what kcdc is talking about in using the phoenixes here:
On December 13 2012 03:13 kcdc wrote:
They'll support your main push by swinging in from a flank to pick off infestors. Then when you pull back your main force, the phoenixes fly over to support your drop, and on the way, they'll spot a counter-attack heading for your fourth. After they pick off a queen to save your warp prism, they speed over to your fourth base to help save your nexus. And when the remaining infestors show up in Zerg's main to defend the drop, your phoenixes zoom back to your main push to pick off the now-unsupported broodlords that your ground army can't reach. It's really amazing how useful that fast, flying component to your army is.
I don't see what's gimmicky at all about the uses described here. I think incorporating some phoenixes (if you have the available APM/multitasking ability to use them) is a really great idea. One thing kcdc didn't mention is that they can also kill any overlords/overseers that Zerg is using for spotting incoming warp prisms. I haven't watched the replays yet, but from a theorycrafting perspective the phoenix SWAT team sounds like a great idea to me.
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HelloSon, that's like saying TvP bio drops are gimmicky because Protoss might defend perfectly and you could lose a medivac full of units.
This idea is adding 5 phoenixes to a stable macro build that's about to take a fourth base and needs a stargate anyway for mothership tech. This is a tiny investment.
As for the question of what happens if Zerg controls perfectly (quickly responding to your drops with the right number of units, microing his army well, fungaling yoru phoenixes before they're in range to lift infestors, etc), I think even then you'd be in good shape as long as you're macroing and using your main army well. Zerg doesn't have broodlords when you push, and their fungal bank is limited. If they commit to chain fungaling your phoenixes to death, that's not a bad outcome for Protoss because it means less fungals and IT's defending the main army.
I think you're underestimating how difficult a well-executed zealot/immortal/templar timing is for Zerg to deal with. It's almost impossible for Zerg to not have an opening somewhere.
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On December 13 2012 04:04 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 03:37 HelloSon wrote:
Hmm, seems gimmicky in that you rely heavily on your opponent making a huge, game-ending mistake (not fungaling Phoenix, not splitting units correctly against drops, etc). What happens if the Zerg just burrows his infestors? I totally disagree. There's nothing gimmicky about what kcdc is talking about in using the phoenixes here: Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 03:13 kcdc wrote:
They'll support your main push by swinging in from a flank to pick off infestors. Then when you pull back your main force, the phoenixes fly over to support your drop, and on the way, they'll spot a counter-attack heading for your fourth. After they pick off a queen to save your warp prism, they speed over to your fourth base to help save your nexus. And when the remaining infestors show up in Zerg's main to defend the drop, your phoenixes zoom back to your main push to pick off the now-unsupported broodlords that your ground army can't reach. It's really amazing how useful that fast, flying component to your army is.
I don't see what's gimmicky at all about the uses described here. I think incorporating some phoenixes (if you have the available APM/multitasking ability to use them) is a really great idea. One thing kcdc didn't mention is that they can also kill any overlords/overseers that Zerg is using for spotting incoming warp prisms. I haven't watched the replays yet, but from a theorycrafting perspective the phoenix SWAT team sounds like a great idea to me.
Yes, you could kill overlords with them to help your drops, but I think it speaks to the utility of the phoenixes that I honestly haven't found time to do that with them yet. They've been too busy doing more important tasks to be bothered with killing overlords. I suppose when I play a game where Zerg does manage to stabilize on his hive tech composition, I'll get around to hunting overlords to deny vision.
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In a lot of these replays you seem to be skipping blink entirely/ your opponents are quitting before you get around to it.
Do you think this wise? I'm wondering if you think getting blink after charge/when you max out is necessary if your pre-brood push doesn't do tons of damage.
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On December 13 2012 04:22 Durp wrote:
In a lot of these replays you seem to be skipping blink entirely/ your opponents are quitting before you get around to it.
Do you think this wise? I'm wondering if you think getting blink after charge/when you max out is necessary if your pre-brood push doesn't do tons of damage.
I have been skipping blink, and I'm not sure if that's wise or not. I see two possible applications for blink with this push:
(1) kill broodlords during the push before Zerg stabilizes, and
(2) kill broodlords after Zerg stabilizes and they're trying to kill you.
For the first application, it seems unlikely that you'll wind up in a situation where blink would help you kill broods that you couldn't kill with phoenixes + a ground army without blink. You can usually only kill unsupported broodlords with blink stalkers at this point, and you're gonna be able to kill those without blink anyway.
As for the latter case, I don't have a good sense for what the game would look like.
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On December 13 2012 04:37 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 04:22 Durp wrote:
In a lot of these replays you seem to be skipping blink entirely/ your opponents are quitting before you get around to it.
Do you think this wise? I'm wondering if you think getting blink after charge/when you max out is necessary if your pre-brood push doesn't do tons of damage. I have been skipping blink, and I'm not sure if that's wise or not. I see two possible applications for blink with this push: (1) kill broodlords during the push before Zerg stabilizes, and (2) kill broodlords after Zerg stabilizes and they're trying to kill you. For the first application, it seems unlikely that you'll wind up in a situation where blink would help you kill broods that you couldn't kill with phoenixes + a ground army without blink. You can usually only kill unsupported broodlords with blink stalkers at this point, and you're gonna be able to kill those without blink anyway. As for the latter case, I don't have a good sense for what the game would look like.
Are you skipping/postponing blink mostly because you said you prefer the Zealot/Archon style as opposed to a heavier Stalker count? It seems reasonable that you aren't relying on blink for a broodlord confrontation, so it can be pushed back quite hard even though you are using twilight tech. One thought though is that if you are using phoenixes to pick up infestors, you are literally freeing up the reason why stalkers die en masse when engaging. We want that situation where the infestors can't keep us from blinking in. I'm thinking that phoenix vs infestor and stalker vs broodlord is a fantastic approach as opposed to a clunkier archon mix (in the mid-game at least.)
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Canada13389 Posts
I think if you are gonna go phoenix you might as well open with them so you also have their utility in early game. If you choose to skip stargate for other stuff like a faster third or whatever it seems extremely counter intuitive to get them later on.
This doesnt delay the mothership to boot.
Though the utility of the phoenixes in the late game is something I think needs more exploration.
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I do prefer zealots over stalkers as much as possible. Zealots have much better stats per cost and you don't have to babysit them nearly as much. Of course, zealots don't shoot up, so they'll only take you so far.
I think you probably do need blink if Zerg stabilizes, and it's only 150/150, so you might as well get it. I'm not sure when the ideal time to get blink is, but it's probably right before your pre-brood push or during the early stages of your push.
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On December 13 2012 04:52 ZeromuS wrote:
I think if you are gonna go phoenix you might as well open with them so you also have their utility in early game. If you choose to skip stargate for other stuff like a faster third or whatever it seems extremely counter intuitive to get them later on.
This doesnt delay the mothership to boot.
Though the utility of the phoenixes in the late game is something I think needs more exploration.
I actually really dislike opening with early phoenixes because you sacrifice so much army size and ground control. 2-base phoenix is a totally different play style than what I'm doing, and I don't think it would be good at all to open with 2-base phoenix and transition into the 3-base push that I'm using.
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Watched a few replays. Whoa.
This is like a faster, "I can be everywhere on the map" version of the 4 brofestor hit squad. The possibilities are endless.
Infestors try to scurry forward one at a time to minimize losses? Snipe with phoenix.
OLs scouting speed prisms? Snipe with phoenix.
Queens going out of spore range to target speed prisms? Snipe with phoenix.
Zerg keeps killing your obs? Scout with phoenix.
I can't see why this shouldn't be standard, or at least, explored more. It's SO cost effective if done properly.
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Canada13389 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 04:52 ZeromuS wrote:
I think if you are gonna go phoenix you might as well open with them so you also have their utility in early game. If you choose to skip stargate for other stuff like a faster third or whatever it seems extremely counter intuitive to get them later on.
This doesnt delay the mothership to boot.
Though the utility of the phoenixes in the late game is something I think needs more exploration. I actually really dislike opening with early phoenixes because you sacrifice so much army size and ground control. 2-base phoenix is a totally different play style than what I'm doing, and I don't think it would be good at all to open with 2-base phoenix and transition into the 3-base push that I'm using.
I don't know, I think it bears some experimenting if I could be so bold as to recommend it. It feels to me like the immortal/zealot/high templar build has a harder time dealing with a lot of roaches since you rely on archons and storm. Granted rushing for templar so early would be difficult if you also opened stargate, however, I think the scouting and air dominance the phoenix give you early game is highly beneficial for a few reasons:
- Easier time scouting,
- less difficulty vs a fast muta opening (which is good vs the 3 base templar zealot immortal thing before all your tech fully kicks in)
- air control, killing overlords making your eventual drop play that much stronger
Will storm be delayed a bit? Yeah I think so. But the benefits I think outweigh the costs if you learn how to pull this off effectively. We see creator do 3 base timings focused on chargelot archon and collossus with a stargate opening in the GSL and other tournaments. I would say this can be more gas intensive and weak to mutalisks than your build but it works as a timing.
I don't see how you can dismiss opening pheonix and keeping them alive. Their utility from early game into late if you maintain a count of 5 phoenixes to me seems like it would be great. If the zerg decides to do an early infestor push the ability to lift and kill them would be greater in the mid game than in the late game which you say is amazing.
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Maybe it could be good to go 2-base phoenix into immortal/zealot/templar. My main concern would be surviving a roach/hydra timing. I feel like opening phoenix forces you into a colossus composition because your ground army is relatively small and you can't get storm in time to defend.
My other concern would be about the size of your ground army compared to Zerg in the 12-14 minute window. I go for a very fast third base which gives my army enough muscle to threaten a passively teching Zerg starting around 12 minutes. This threat forces roaches, lowers the infestor count, and sometimes burns fungals before my pre-hive timing push. Those factors obviously help the phoenix squad be more effective.
If you reversed the order, you could do some damage with early phoenix harass, but your third would be later and you'd lack some bulk army size.
FFE -> SG isn't my style, but maybe it really can transition into immortal/templar play. It just doesn't sound strong to me.
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I thought this was common in ladder play? Maybe it's just me, but about every protoss I face who doesn't just immortal sentry all in usually end up with several phoenixes from mid game to late game to cause so much chaos around the map that it messes up my whole game. The real objective for the phoenixes is to decrease infestor efficiency, either by killing them outright (I mean, who babysits their infestors with anti-air every single second of the game) or force them to use energy thereby decreasing their usefulness out in the battlefield. If I do babysit them with units of my own (corruptors, hydras, whatever have you), the phoenixes already completed their purpose because they've turned the role of the infestor upside down. Rather than infestor supporting the army, the army has to support and keep the infestors alive in order to win the late battle when it finally clashes. With good play from the protoss, it's possible to prevent this much hated "late game" deathball fight. Even in the late game, it becomes an annoying problem for zerg which could result in a win for the toss if the zerg deals with it poorly.
Messing up the zerg because of threats to their key unit opens up so many advantages for the protoss in positioning, timing, and unit efficiency. Of course, I did mention this was a popular strategy I go up against only in ladder because it's most effective only if the zerg reacts to phoenixes poorly. A zerg who loses to this will be more cautious the next time around.
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On December 13 2012 05:23 scph wrote:
I thought this was common in ladder play? Maybe it's just me, but about every protoss I face who doesn't just immortal sentry all in usually end up with several phoenixes from mid game to late game to cause so much chaos around the map that it messes up my whole game. The real objective for the phoenixes is to decrease infestor efficiency, either by killing them outright (I mean, who babysits their infestors with anti-air every single second of the game) or force them to use energy thereby decreasing their usefulness out in the battlefield. If I do babysit them with units of my own (corruptors, hydras, whatever have you), the phoenixes already completed their purpose because they've turned the role of the infestor upside down. Rather than infestor supporting the army, the army has to support and keep the infestors alive in order to win the late battle when it finally clashes. With good play from the protoss, it's possible to prevent this much hated "late game" deathball fight. Even in the late game, it becomes an annoying problem for zerg which could result in a win for the toss if the zerg deals with it poorly.
Messing up the zerg because of threats to their key unit opens up so many advantages for the protoss in positioning, timing, and unit efficiency. Of course, I did mention this was a popular strategy I go up against only in ladder because it's most effective only if the zerg reacts to phoenixes poorly. A zerg who loses to this will be more cautious the next time around.
Phoenix harass -> 3rd base -> colossus composition is common.
3rd base -> zealot/immortal composition -> phoenix support squad is not common.
They sound similar because both styles get ~5 phoenixes, but the way they play is quite different.
The fast third into zealot/immortal push produces a powerful attack around 14 minutes which Zerg struggles to get enough stuff to defend. Because the main push is so scary, Zerg is hard-pressed to afford corruptors and fungals to deal with the phoenixes. It's like trying to swat a wasp while you wrestle a bear.
By contrast, the popular phoenix into colossus build is also powerful, but in this case, the phoenixes annoy you all game but the big push hits later, giving you more time to prepare. And since you already want corruptors to deal with the colossi, the phoenixes aren't as difficult to deal with. Here, the wasp annoys you for a long time before the bear shows up, but you get to wrestle a smaller bear as compensation.
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Canada13389 Posts
On December 13 2012 05:16 kcdc wrote:
Maybe it could be good to go 2-base phoenix into immortal/zealot/templar. My main concern would be surviving a roach/hydra timing. I feel like opening phoenix forces you into a colossus composition because your ground army is relatively small and you can't get storm in time to defend.
My other concern would be about the size of your ground army compared to Zerg in the 12-14 minute window. I go for a very fast third base which gives my army enough muscle to threaten a passively teching Zerg starting around 12 minutes. This threat forces roaches, lowers the infestor count, and sometimes burns fungals before my pre-hive timing push. Those factors obviously help the phoenix squad be more effective.
If you reversed the order, you could do some damage with early phoenix harass, but your third would be later and you'd lack some bulk army size.
FFE -> SG isn't my style, but maybe it really can transition into immortal/templar play. It just doesn't sound strong to me.
Ok see this is the kind of explanation I was hoping for and not the simple one you gave before 
Between this one and the answer just above my post I can understand where you are coming from 
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ZeromuS, do you have any experience/advice about opening phoenix into kcdc style? personally i try to do it a lot lately, not necessarilly becouse i think it is that good, but i like both stargate opening and charge/immo/templar too much(at very low masters)
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EPT
