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Canada13427 Posts
On December 13 2012 07:35 Eladen wrote:ZeromuS, do you have any experience/advice about opening phoenix into kcdc style? personally i try to do it a lot lately, not necessarilly becouse i think it is that good, but i like both stargate opening and charge/immo/templar too much(at very low masters) 
Not a lot, I'm not a high master myself and haven't tried it too much. I am just trying to throw out ideas in this Discussion thread to see where they go ^^
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Eladen, have you found phoenix into immortal/charge to be strong at all? I have very limited experience with phoenix builds, and I've never tried transitioning into immortal/charge with them, so maybe I'm totally wrong. The pros all seem to go into colossi following phoenix, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the only option. Monk's PvZ guide also says to follow phoenix with colossi, but that information is probably based mostly off observing the pro scene.
Either way, I think taking a fast third is a better way to keep up with Zerg's production than is harassing with phoenixes. I frequently out-supply a teching Zerg with my build, and I don't think I've seen anyone do that with a phoenix opening.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 13 2012 08:03 kcdc wrote:
Eladen, have you found phoenix into immortal/charge to be strong at all? I have very limited experience with phoenix builds, and I've never tried transitioning into immortal/charge with them, so maybe I'm totally wrong. The pros all seem to go into colossi following phoenix, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the only option. Monk's PvZ guide also says to follow phoenix with colossi, but that information is probably based mostly off observing the pro scene.
Either way, I think taking a fast third is a better way to keep up with Zerg's production than is harassing with phoenixes. I frequently out-supply a teching Zerg with my build, and I don't think I've seen anyone do that with a phoenix opening.
The pros go colossi after phoenix because the two most common follow ups against phoenix are infestors or hydralisks, and colossi can deal with both of those. Going immortal/Chargelot is a risky follow up.
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On December 13 2012 08:38 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:03 kcdc wrote:
Eladen, have you found phoenix into immortal/charge to be strong at all? I have very limited experience with phoenix builds, and I've never tried transitioning into immortal/charge with them, so maybe I'm totally wrong. The pros all seem to go into colossi following phoenix, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the only option. Monk's PvZ guide also says to follow phoenix with colossi, but that information is probably based mostly off observing the pro scene.
Either way, I think taking a fast third is a better way to keep up with Zerg's production than is harassing with phoenixes. I frequently out-supply a teching Zerg with my build, and I don't think I've seen anyone do that with a phoenix opening. The pros go colossi after phoenix because the two most common follow ups against phoenix are infestors or hydralisks, and colossi can deal with both of those. Going immortal/Chargelot is a risky follow up.
Well, templar could theoretically deal with both threats too. Colossi are a good follow-up to 2-base phoenix, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the only good follow-up.
We're getting a little off-topic tho.
Back to the 3-base phoenix transition to support a charge/immortal push--what do people think?
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Okay I will test it out kcdc ^^. Even though you keep whining after our pvp games your guides are still good 
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On December 13 2012 08:03 kcdc wrote:
Eladen, have you found phoenix into immortal/charge to be strong at all? I have very limited experience with phoenix builds, and I've never tried transitioning into immortal/charge with them, so maybe I'm totally wrong. The pros all seem to go into colossi following phoenix, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the only option. Monk's PvZ guide also says to follow phoenix with colossi, but that information is probably based mostly off observing the pro scene.
Either way, I think taking a fast third is a better way to keep up with Zerg's production than is harassing with phoenixes. I frequently out-supply a teching Zerg with my build, and I don't think I've seen anyone do that with a phoenix opening.
If I scout hydra den i go colo anyway so no worries there, and other than that, it feels pretty solid to me. SG helps hide your evil plan, as they have limited scouting, and cos it really is not that common, they probably just assume you are going standard colo transition. Also helps taking festors out of fight during your 15 min attack.
also i feel opening phoenix is more flexible, as when i go fast robo expand into zelot immo ht, muta kills me so bad .. I feel really allin if I scout spire. And if they hide it, gg.
For the late game usage, the best thing that could happen is if you find a new base with 20 drones just transfered - feels like christmas Also it may force zerg to make more corruptors, which is not bad if you dont go colo, just need to look after mothership some more. And if nothing is happenig, I just park them at the next spot I expect z to expand, af often times i am able to kill the drone before it becomes hatch, which not only delays his expand, but also tells me about it. (just to expand you points for going phoenix after third).
Overall I feel transition to pheonix after third can be good, they are usefull in many ways, and zerg normally doesnit have that many anti air defences at his bases. I might try to experimenting with it when I get the chance.
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On December 13 2012 09:06 cvgHuShang wrote:Okay I will test it out kcdc ^^. Even though you keep whining after our pvp games your guides are still good
Thanks I guess?
Also, PvP sucks.
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This looks good, the big problem would be the delayed mother ship and blink.
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It's stuff like this that makes me want to go back to Protoss.
But...PvP.
I may end up switching to Protoss when HotS comes out, really depends on how the meta changes. I do so love their timing pushes, especially vs. Zerg. A 3-base timing push...how cool is that!?
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EPT
