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brofestor
Singapore101 Posts
HOWEVER, gate fe does has certain advantages in situations where FFE would be weak against (eg. very earlypools) or create strong pressure that FFE can not replicate (eg. 1gate fe into 5gate allin, can work against zerg who have been playing against ffe all this while and might "forget" how to play against gate fe). so gate fe is sub optimal compared to ffe but gate fe MIGHT work out just as well or even better depending on the situation | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 22 2012 21:51 brofestor wrote: FFE is the most econ-oriented choice (considering the faster nexus you can get) thats why almost ALL all pro toss players use it. HOWEVER, gate fe does has certain advantages in situations where FFE would be weak against (eg. very earlypools) or create strong pressure that FFE can not replicate (eg. 1gate fe into 5gate allin, can work against zerg who have been playing against ffe all this while and might "forget" how to play against gate fe). so gate fe is sub optimal compared to ffe but gate fe MIGHT work out just as well or even better depending on the situation All-ins off FFE are stronger, faster and more varied, in general. Sated: it's not that gateway expand is bad or whatever, in fact it's coming back because it's a good change of pace opening. It's that ineversmile consistently posts wrong advice and i called him out on it. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
On October 22 2012 21:51 brofestor wrote: FFE is the most econ-oriented choice (considering the faster nexus you can get) thats why almost ALL all pro toss players use it. HOWEVER, gate fe does has certain advantages in situations where FFE would be weak against (eg. very earlypools) or create strong pressure that FFE can not replicate (eg. 1gate fe into 5gate allin, can work against zerg who have been playing against ffe all this while and might "forget" how to play against gate fe). so gate fe is sub optimal compared to ffe but gate fe MIGHT work out just as well or even better depending on the situation I agree with the essence of your post, but not the specifics. many pros are as susceptible to being sheep as us commoners (Master's, or even below). I think the main reason most people use FFE is becasue of how the meta works. 1 Gate FE, if countere well (as mentioned earlier, reactive gas, speed before third Hatch, good scouting, Pylon denying), will ultimately result in a Toss being in a slightly less favourable position than if here were to have FFEed. The fact is, most Zergs don't have a textbook response to this, and so I think the 1 Gate FEer has a solid chance of staying even, or even ahead. Ultimately, though, I think FFE is the better build, though that that doesn't necessarily imply one will have more success with it. | ||
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brofestor
Singapore101 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
It's a bit different because with ffe if you do get sentries with your push, you delay it a little bit: common variations hit at around the 9.30 mark with sentries and 8 to 8.30 without; on the other hand, gateway timings off gateway expand are more varied (see my signature >.<) as they can have anywhere in between 3 and 7 gates, but they are (mostly) all sentry based. The other difference is that FFE can get +1 weapons in time for any push, while gateway expand can only do it with a really slow attack. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
Your 'analysis' on gateway expand vs speedling expand is utterly pointless as speedling expand hasn't been a relevant ZvP build in forever. Not only is it useless vs FFE, it's also suboptimal vs gateway expand. Going speedling expand right now is like flipping a coin. One side's pretty bad for you. The other's very bad. The mere fact that you apparently took Teoita's 'you can't punish Zerg's third with anything out of gateway expand' to mean 'you can't cancel the hatch with a zealot stalker poke' shows how ludicrous this discussion is. And talking about 'killing a couple of overlords' with a zealot stalker poke? Really? No Zerg with any sense of timings vs gateway expand will ever let that happen. As for the rest of your arguments, you don't supply anything that comes close to being evidence that gateway expand is superior. Yes, you get to pressure more and earlier with gateway expand compared to FFE and yes, theoretically that could prove to be superior to the extra economy FFE gives you. We all understand how basic Sc2 works. Why what you say has any relevance next to the collective experience of all pros remains a mystery however. You don't bring anything new to table, you're just arguing for gateway expand in generalities that anyone with any modicum of Starcraft knowledge is aware of. I realise this post sounds harsh and I'm sorry, you seem like a nice guy after all. There's absolutely nothing wrong with you theorycrafting about gateway expand and who knows, it might turn out to be better than FFE after all. The problem lies with you labelling that as strategy advice and not theorycrafting. All current evidence points to FFE being the better build and strategy advice to worse players should reflect that fact. | ||
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
The bottom line is, I feel Gateway expands are generally something you would throw into a BoX (X>1 for the semantics) but never consistently rely on against a good player. You might feel you have more success with it on ladder, but that's an advantage built on variance on map/spawn location and inexperience of opposition. If that's good enough for you, keep at it. Anecdotal: I made a smurf account, 4 gated every game against z. I rushed into DTs (proxying the shrine) while camping outside his base with zealots and stalker(s). I won essentially 80+% of those games up to mid masters on NA. For the games where my DTs were scouted, zealot archon wrecked havoc. This is an example of something working purely on the opposition reacting poorly/not knowing how to play. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 22 2012 10:14 IM_Pallypal wrote: I understand why HT is a good idea, but The majority of the time I'm not deep enough in my tech to get them out before my econ is so far behind I can't pull out. I also have reservations about HTs against mutas; The flock is just going to move out of it, no? That's what's happened when I put one down before. If the flock is in the middle of the storm then it's already done a lot of damage. One or two more storms and they're dead. Storm does 80 damage, mutalisks have 120 health. If they eat at least half a storm -- on average, it'll require 3-4. Just takes patience and meticulous positioning. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
Wall in, with siegetanks missile turrets and depots, impossible to attack into. Then they just constantly send Helions into all my bases, those come for free (1 Helion is the cost of ONE ZEALOT!!!) and Stalkers deal close to 0 damage against them. They just kill my Probes and then have a way stronger army and way better economy and I feel completely helpless. Usually they drop Helions in my main and Natural and just drive into my third and or fourth base. Blue Flame and +1 Weapons means they 2shot Probes, so in like 5-8 seconds a complete mineral line is gone, running is not an option since they line up. What THE FUCK can I do to not die to this shit every single time?! I tried walling off but it takes like 2.5k Minerals for a single base to be safe against 600 Minerals worth of units, I cannot afford to do that. I know Blink is very useful but Stalker DPs is terrible against Helions and they still do tons of damage. I am just completely frustrated because I lose 80% of my PvTs to this shit and I have no answer. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Diamond Protoss. I'm losing a surprising number of games to just marines. My opponent will just make 20 or so marines, walk over to my base, stim, and kill everything. This hits at around 10 minutes or so. What's a good response to this? I know there are builds that hard counter it (fast Colossus) but if he simply waits a minute and adds on a couple of vikings and hits again, I'm screwed. Also, yesterday someone 3 raxed me (no expand). I went 1 gate expand, scouted no expansion and added 2 more gates and a robo. I was able to save my 2nd Nexus, but it cost me a lot of probes and he eventually won the macro game, despite going pretty all-in. Was my build at fault or should I just have microed better? Thanks! | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 22 2012 23:42 rd wrote: If the flock is in the middle of the storm then it's already done a lot of damage. One or two more storms and they're dead. Storm does 80 damage, mutalisks have 120 health. If they eat at least half a storm -- on average, it'll require 3-4. Just takes patience and meticulous positioning. You don't use the storm to kill them really... you use it as a preventative measure as in "if you sit here and attack me you will all take 80 damage." Muta are fast but with effective observer positioning (so you can see the angle of attack coming), a HT or two at each base, and some blink stalkers, you should be able to handle them very well. I usually have this sort of defense set up until I'm ready to go kill the zerg, then I just make 12 cannons at each base and move out :p. Works at my level (Diamond). | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 23 2012 00:44 DinoMight wrote: Hi all, Diamond Protoss. I'm losing a surprising number of games to just marines. My opponent will just make 20 or so marines, walk over to my base, stim, and kill everything. This hits at around 10 minutes or so. What's a good response to this? I know there are builds that hard counter it (fast Colossus) but if he simply waits a minute and adds on a couple of vikings and hits again, I'm screwed. Also, yesterday someone 3 raxed me (no expand). I went 1 gate expand, scouted no expansion and added 2 more gates and a robo. I was able to save my 2nd Nexus, but it cost me a lot of probes and he eventually won the macro game, despite going pretty all-in. Was my build at fault or should I just have microed better? Thanks! 1) Please post a replay; it sounds like you are either not scouting/reacting to some wierd timing correctly, don't have good macro, or play too greedy. A medivac timing can also hit between 10 and 11 minutes with more marines as well as two medivacs, which is far, far scarier and it's the pressure pretty much every pvt macro build is designed around since that's what every terran does more or less. 2) Also post a replay. In general you should be able to hold off cost effectively with 3 gateways worth of production and a few immortals eventually, without losing too many probes (generaly they are only useful if he brings scv's). You do need to land key ff's though. Losing in a macro game might just mean you screwed up your defense enough that he ended up even/ahead, and he might have outplayed you after his all-in damaged you enough that he could transition. On October 23 2012 00:22 rEalGuapo wrote: So lately most Terrans do this against me: Wall in, with siegetanks missile turrets and depots, impossible to attack into. Then they just constantly send Helions into all my bases, those come for free (1 Helion is the cost of ONE ZEALOT!!!) and Stalkers deal close to 0 damage against them. They just kill my Probes and then have a way stronger army and way better economy and I feel completely helpless. Usually they drop Helions in my main and Natural and just drive into my third and or fourth base. Blue Flame and +1 Weapons means they 2shot Probes, so in like 5-8 seconds a complete mineral line is gone, running is not an option since they line up. What THE FUCK can I do to not die to this shit every single time?! I tried walling off but it takes like 2.5k Minerals for a single base to be safe against 600 Minerals worth of units, I cannot afford to do that. I know Blink is very useful but Stalker DPs is terrible against Helions and they still do tons of damage. I am just completely frustrated because I lose 80% of my PvTs to this shit and I have no answer. Sounds like you are losing to 2+base mech; doing that stuff off one base makes no sense. Vs mech you are right that you need to minimize the damage hellions can inflict, while at the same time staying one base ahead of the Terran. This means building pylons and gateways in key positions to restrict hellions from moving into mineral line (walling off one side with your gateways for example), while leaving stalkers in position to defend along a cannon or two. Blink also really helps. Make sure to have observers spotting in common run-by locations. Take a fast third vs mech play. Assuming 1gate fe, you should try to do so the moment your obs confirms mech at around 9 minutes, while building a twilight council for blink/charge. Immortal/chargelot/blinkstalker/templar is a good midgame composition vs mech; in lategame carrier switches are also very strong. Losing to a hellion drop in early game is a wholly different matter. Once you identify that the Terran is teching (there's plenty of threads about it; monk's 1gate fe guide is the best) you need to position your army correctly. What i do is partially wall off the top of my ramp like it's pvz, and leave 1zealot, 2 stalkers and a sentry at my ramp, while warping in 3 stalkers in my main. With mc's 1gate fe these stalkers will be done in time to prevent hellion drops and banshee play. I like to rally both nexi to my main, and only transfer down once the threat is gone, either because i have another round of units ready (which means i can defend both locations easily), or because i kill off the initial hellions/medivac/marines. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
In the endgame it seems like toss ground is not that cost-efficient vs BL/infestor. Infestors can guard BL's fairly well against stalkers, and nothing else can really get in range of the BL's besides stalkers, and Z's mineral dump, lings, do very well vs stalkers. However, it seems like a transition to 3-4 stargate VR/carrier/mothership/templar would be pretty strong vs this comp. These units are good vs BL because BL obviously can't do anything to them, and the templar can counteract the infestors to some degree. So I guess my question is why don't we ever see this in PvZ lategame, unless toss is really ahead? Is it too expensive? I would guess to fund this type of army you would need 4 bases at least, but something like standard stalker/colossus/templar/mothership for first max, then mostly VR/carrier/mothership/replenish templar for 2nd max would be pretty strong (and mineral dump zealots). Has anyone tried this with any degree of success? The obvious Z response to this is mass corruptor/infestor, but after a large battle that comes out somewhat even, Z's typically go blindly back into BL, so I would think it can be effective. I'm not really sure how much eco toss would need to support something like this though, and also with templar counteracting the infestors and storming the corruptors it seems like it could still work out with a good enough economy. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Even then, p is so unused to having that army that the engagements even progamers take with it and the micro are really really sloppy, see Seed vs Symbol on CK for reference. As time goes on, people will definitely try it more, especially carriers. Void rays are too vulnerable to infestors to be useful. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 23 2012 07:59 Defenestrator wrote: I'm a Z player, but I had a question about PvZ endgame. In the endgame it seems like toss ground is not that cost-efficient vs BL/infestor. Infestors can guard BL's fairly well against stalkers, and nothing else can really get in range of the BL's besides stalkers, and Z's mineral dump, lings, do very well vs stalkers. However, it seems like a transition to 3-4 stargate VR/carrier/mothership/templar would be pretty strong vs this comp. These units are good vs BL because BL obviously can't do anything to them, and the templar can counteract the infestors to some degree. So I guess my question is why don't we ever see this in PvZ lategame, unless toss is really ahead? Is it too expensive? I would guess to fund this type of army you would need 4 bases at least, but something like standard stalker/colossus/templar/mothership for first max, then mostly VR/carrier/mothership/replenish templar for 2nd max would be pretty strong (and mineral dump zealots). Has anyone tried this with any degree of success? The obvious Z response to this is mass corruptor/infestor, but after a large battle that comes out somewhat even, Z's typically go blindly back into BL, so I would think it can be effective. I'm not really sure how much eco toss would need to support something like this though, and also with templar counteracting the infestors and storming the corruptors it seems like it could still work out with a good enough economy. Nature of Z's production makes it difficult. Rush to an amazing economy/production capacity, maintain a large ball of infestors, then see carriers and produce 20+ corruptors simultaneously. Z rushes to this goal, Protoss dances around it with a mothership timing. In the current metagame with how base management pans out, Z has an easy time reacting and snapping carriers in half off a monstrous economy. The difficulty is that PvZ's often hinge on the 4th base of Protoss as the broodlord/infestor ball hits full steam, when you need a 5+ base economy to transition safely in a normal PvZ game. At this point just waiting for the next PvZ god in to figure out how to make it work. It may never be solved before HotS. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
And as far as I can tell the disadvantages are:
Is this an accurate assessment? What do the other Protoss of Team Liquid think? | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
I mean pros have done it, I guess it's okay; I don't think you missed any pros or cons. Just my opinion on the opening. It's also safer against baneling busts because you can easily wall off the top of your ramp. | ||
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