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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On October 24 2012 12:19 monk. wrote: I think he's talking about gateway units in the context of late game PvP maxed battles. Oh, of course. My bad. Sorry. (I'm just a little peeved these days with Protoss not appreciating the value of their GW units.) | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On October 24 2012 12:33 playa wrote: I personally never understood the ht -> archons in p vs p. Still don't. As strong as colossi are in p vs p, I'm going to save as much gas as I can to maximize that number. Plus, why wouldn't you want the ability to harass with a dt at anytime? Also, it's always nice to have at least 1 dt mixed in with your army to force them to have an obs at all times. The only time you actually need an ht is if the other guy has a mothership, so... if the other guy wants to favor having more zealots, thank god I get to have an extra colossi... I can only hope that people continue to think that tradeoff makes sense. It makes perfect sense. You guys are all amazing. Please keep at it. I suggest you read my PvP analysis here. Basically, protoss players have figured out that massing colossi does not make for the optimal army. You really want to stop between 8-11 and then focus on layering units. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
On October 24 2012 12:19 monk. wrote: I think he's talking about gateway units in the context of late game PvP maxed battles. Yes. Moere specifically, of course, excluding the Templar. I was referring to Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 24 2012 19:51 monk. wrote: I suggest you read my PvP analysis here. Basically, protoss players have figured out that massing colossi does not make for the optimal army. You really want to stop between 8-11 and then focus on layering units. I have to say I first read that when you wrote it and it is, by far, one of the best analysis articles on PvP I've seen in a while. Its actually something I started to get a feeling for myself about 4 months ago when I realised that I was doing lot better by having 4 or 5 immortals mixed into my lategame army (although at the time I wasn't sure if it was some kind of damage mitigation effect, which seems to be the case, or that Immortals were just a lot stronger than they're given credit for). The archon thing has been a huge help to me more recently (never figured Archons could be so important in PvP). And the discussion on Stalkers was quite revealing to how I've won/lost several games (the other day I was in a PvP where I was down 2 or 3 colossi on my opponent but a combination of target firing plus the fact I had a ton of zealots and he had a ton of stalkers meant I annihilated him). Should be mandatory reading for all Protoss. Excellent piece of writing. Very revealing | ||
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Rasputincz
Czech Republic95 Posts
what is the best follow up to holding a 2 rax from terran? I scouted his two rax, went for mc 1 gate expand with 2/3 stalkers and zealot just to be safe i held the pressure no problem but what should i do next? i went for 2x gas on nat + robo bay but he pushed with 3 rax 2 medivac attack. It was pretty much all in he had like 25 svcs but still i wasnt able to hold. Are there any builds which will punish terran for doing this build or i have to try to play macro oriented game? I am not sure if builds like 6/7 gate of two gases would work but i guess i should try it or any ideas? | ||
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Embezzle
5 Posts
Been looking like crazy for it but can't find anything, and the GSL vod is locked. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On October 25 2012 16:38 Rasputincz wrote: hey, what is the best follow up to holding a 2 rax from terran? I scouted his two rax, went for mc 1 gate expand with 2/3 stalkers and zealot just to be safe i held the pressure no problem but what should i do next? i went for 2x gas on nat + robo bay but he pushed with 3 rax 2 medivac attack. It was pretty much all in he had like 25 svcs but still i wasnt able to hold. Are there any builds which will punish terran for doing this build or i have to try to play macro oriented game? I am not sure if builds like 6/7 gate of two gases would work but i guess i should try it or any ideas? I think you just played too greedy after holding off his attack. From what you wrote it seems like he was still on one base and then all-ined you a second time and caught you without enough units. A replay for this game is needed because even though you held off his 2rax I need to see how much damage you took and how much he invested. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26021 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On October 24 2012 19:51 monk. wrote: I suggest you read my PvP analysis here. Basically, protoss players have figured out that massing colossi does not make for the optimal army. You really want to stop between 8-11 and then focus on layering units. I always seem to have a surplus of minerals as I don't like making a lot of gateways. On the other hand, gas doesn't seem to grow on trees and is something to be cherished. When you can have more colossi and/or archons by simply merging from dark templars to archons, it's way too counter intuitive for me to begin to grasp w/e you speak of. What are you making with those extra minerals, zealots? What absolutely counters the hell out of zealots, colossi and archons; something you're allowing me to have more of so you can have more of the zealot layer? I'm already zealot heavy as is, no thanks for the invitation to have even more. Whether right or wrong, I can't imagine it being a big adv. A maximum amount of colossi and archons... talk about not getting any bang for you buck on those precious minerals you have gained from ht... | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On October 26 2012 20:17 playa wrote: I always seem to have a surplus of minerals as I don't like making a lot of gateways. On the other hand, gas doesn't seem to grow on trees and is something to be cherished. When you can have more colossi and/or archons by simply merging from dark templars to archons, it's way too counter intuitive for me to begin to grasp w/e you speak of. What are you making with those extra minerals, zealots? What absolutely counters the hell out of zealots, colossi and archons; something you're allowing me to have more of so you can have more of the zealot layer? I'm already zealot heavy as is, no thanks for the invitation to have even more. Whether right or wrong, I can't imagine it being a big adv. A maximum amount of colossi and archons... talk about not getting any bang for you buck on those precious minerals you have gained from ht... Have you read this reply on the previous page? On October 24 2012 03:18 monk. wrote: Yea, another thing is that in PvP, your gas income to mineral income ratio is much higher than in other match-ups. You usually have only 55-60 probes with 6 gas instead of 70-80 probes with 6 gas as in other match-ups. Archons are only really useful in a standard PvP in the late game. And again, as other have pointed out, a lot of late game stuff you want is actually high mineral/low gas, like zealots, cannons, gateways, pylons, nexi, warp prisms and immortals. In contrast, only archons and upgrades are gas heavy in the late game. Are you making too many colossi? Do you have too many probes on minerals? Are you not getting enough mineral based units, especially immortals and gateways? Or think about it this way: If you choose to make archons out of dts rather than ht, you'll need to make 6 archons before you've saved enough gas for a 7th. If you make them out of templar, you'll have 900 extra minerals, which can be used for a variety of things. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
Should I even have high templar in my army? They're really pretty costly supply wise, and if I don't get feedbacks off because of broodlings fucking with pathing then they become useless (there's no way I can morph them in time) Another late game question: Should I even be getting voidrays? It's become habit for a few seasons now, to get 3 stargates when I'm on 4 base, and just chrono voidrays. But they usually just end up getting fungaled and dying before even getting to the broodlords. ;; are carriers a better investment? | ||
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Swazi
United States11 Posts
On October 26 2012 19:20 Wombat_NI wrote: Seen a bit of a trend towards shield upgrades of late, as opposed to armour, was wondering what you guys thoughts were on this and what the reasoning is behind it? Just instinctively it seems to me that shields go better towards big stalker ball/Collosus pre-Broodlord timings, whereas armour is better suited for a warp-prism/zealot kind of style. I think the reason people go for shield upgrades in the late game is if they are planning on going to a carrier/ht/archon switch because sheilds benefits that army much more than armor. I've always heard that armor is better then shields for ground army and you shoud max 3 armor 3 attack before starting shields. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 26 2012 22:33 mizU wrote: Question: late game situation, when I have a few high templars with my mothership stalker colossus archon ball, should I be using templar energy mainly for storm, or for feedbacks? I see hero sometimes storm broodlords/roaches but whenever I storm, it seems... useless. Should I even have high templar in my army? They're really pretty costly supply wise, and if I don't get feedbacks off because of broodlings fucking with pathing then they become useless (there's no way I can morph them in time) Another late game question: Should I even be getting voidrays? It's become habit for a few seasons now, to get 3 stargates when I'm on 4 base, and just chrono voidrays. But they usually just end up getting fungaled and dying before even getting to the broodlords. ;; are carriers a better investment? Templar are really good, especially with a carrier transition, at least to keep corruptors at bay and kill infested terrans. If they aren't getting storms off it's probably because you are sending them in first, which eh...kinda silly. Having storm also allows you to storm drop which is really helpful in lategame pvz. Storm is kinda bad vs roaches, but against broodlords i feel like it really helps, and it also protects your colossi/mothership. Void rays are fucking bad, don't make them. Carriers are far superior but no protoss has really figured out an exact transition into them (kinda like terrans and ravens). Personally im hoping for Rain to show us how to do it vs DRG  | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 26 2012 22:33 mizU wrote: Question: late game situation, when I have a few high templars with my mothership stalker colossus archon ball, should I be using templar energy mainly for storm, or for feedbacks? I see hero sometimes storm broodlords/roaches but whenever I storm, it seems... useless. Should I even have high templar in my army? They're really pretty costly supply wise, and if I don't get feedbacks off because of broodlings fucking with pathing then they become useless (there's no way I can morph them in time) Another late game question: Should I even be getting voidrays? It's become habit for a few seasons now, to get 3 stargates when I'm on 4 base, and just chrono voidrays. But they usually just end up getting fungaled and dying before even getting to the broodlords. ;; are carriers a better investment? You don't want to storm the roaches as much as you want to storm the broodlords/feedback the infestors. If you can feedback the infestors, then do so, otherwise storm broodlords. Voidrays aren't bad, rather, the zerg is just gonna snap them in half with 10-15 corruptors+fungal before you have more than 6. Carriers aren't really better in that situation unless you're on 5 base able to afford carriers with high templar and the upgrades. It really depends on how the game played out with your management of zerg's bases and how accessible the fourth and fifth are to you. | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
On October 26 2012 23:29 Teoita wrote: Storm is kinda bad vs roaches, but against broodlords i feel like it really helps, and it also protects your colossi/mothership. Void rays are fucking bad, don't make them. Carriers are far superior but no protoss has really figured out an exact transition into them (kinda like terrans and ravens). Personally im hoping for Rain to show us how to do it vs DRG 1. Storm is great vs roaches (as it is vs everything else), because they're almost always in big numbers. People think it's bad because they can't FF and storm at the same time and you need FF's or walls vs roaches. 2. Voidrays are superior to carriers in every aspect except for the range, that's why you should get 3-5 carriers and rest voidrays when you go air, just to zone out infestors. You are supposed to feedback infestors or recall out of fungal to regen shields anyway, so there is no point in using more carriers because that only makes you vunerable and inefficient (1 voidray kils a broodlord about 10% slower than a carrier, but they're half of the supply...) | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
On October 26 2012 23:43 rd wrote: Voidrays aren't bad, rather, the zerg is just gonna snap them in half with 10-15 corruptors+fungal before you have more than 6. You aren't supposed to move out away from your cannons if you're massing voidrays, because they're super expensive and you need to wait for high supply, so that should never happen. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On October 26 2012 23:29 Teoita wrote: Templar are really good, especially with a carrier transition, at least to keep corruptors at bay and kill infested terrans. If they aren't getting storms off it's probably because you are sending them in first, which eh...kinda silly. Having storm also allows you to storm drop which is really helpful in lategame pvz. Storm is kinda bad vs roaches, but against broodlords i feel like it really helps, and it also protects your colossi/mothership. Void rays are fucking bad, don't make them. Carriers are far superior but no protoss has really figured out an exact transition into them (kinda like terrans and ravens). Personally im hoping for Rain to show us how to do it vs DRG I will cry tears of joy if Rain can figure it out. The biggest problem is the time and expense of the upgrades. Interestingly, some people believe you need void rays others shun them. I think the problem is that fungal growth is so good against the void ray that it creates problems. Defensively I've seen void rays do amazing things. Then again this is all pre split and waiting for the Zerg army (much like MVP vs Life when he held with a well spread viking line). When attacking I don't know how we are supposed to engage the zerg with an air army thanks to the clumping of units. I'm sure theres a micro trick out there that someone will discover to move units in *less* of a ball. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 27 2012 00:22 -Kira wrote: You aren't supposed to move out away from your cannons if you're massing voidrays, because they're super expensive and you need to wait for high supply, so that should never happen. Yeah but you don't have the luxury of time, massing them after you take your fourth base when Zerg is about to bust it within 1-2 minutes with a maxed broodlord/infestor/corruptor army. It's situational to the game state whether or not to make them and whether you mass them and wait. | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
On October 27 2012 04:21 rd wrote: Yeah but you don't have the luxury of time, massing them after you take your fourth base when Zerg is about to bust it within 1-2 minutes with a maxed broodlord/infestor/corruptor army. It's situational to the game state whether or not to make them and whether you mass them and wait. That is, if you didn't set up your entire gameplan for it. You obviously can't do it after 2 base timings or any case of late 3rd, which is when most people try it, fail, and complain that it doesn't work  | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 27 2012 04:26 -Kira wrote: That is, if you didn't set up your entire gameplan for it. You obviously can't do it after 2 base timings or any case of late 3rd, which is when most people try it, fail, and complain that it doesn't work Unless you went skytoss, standard pvz lategames generally aren't prepared for the transition, dumping your gas into archons and minerals into gateways/zealot drops on 4 base. If you did a decent job managing zerg expansions and staving off their deathball, you might land yourself in those weird half-map pvz's where carrier switches become a possibility. The poster in question, however, hard transitioned on four base -- none of the scenarios you mentioned. If you've failed a two-base all-in or couldn't take a timely third the game was likely lost long before voidrays were conceptualized. | ||
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