EPTIn PvT, what is the best response to an engineering bay block on your expo?
Thanks.
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wajd
240 Posts
In PvT, what is the best response to an engineering bay block on your expo? Thanks. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 27 2012 04:54 wajd wrote: I'm sure this has been answered already but I must ask: In PvT, what is the best response to an engineering bay block on your expo? Thanks. Other than making sure it doesn't happen, getting a zealot before stalker always helps. You more or less just have to accept your nexus will be delayed, but the terran will have invested 100 minerals into it. There really isn't much to it or an optimal response, it's just an annoying thing to have happen. | ||
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Mugya
36 Posts
On October 27 2012 04:54 wajd wrote: I'm sure this has been answered already but I must ask: In PvT, what is the best response to an engineering bay block on your expo? Thanks. This is based largely on whether you build the 1st zealot or skip it. If you build the zealot, your opponent wastes minerals and possibly his scout trying to block your expo while delaying anything he's doing as well. If you don't build the zealot and go straight to stalker, then it's harder for you to prevent the ebay block since the stalker will take much longer to kill off the ebay which also lets them cancel. It's kind of the same thing as pylon blocking expos in PvZ. If you don't have your nexus already building when you're building the pylon block, you're just delaying your own expo as well. If you have your nexus building already, then it's more beneficial for you to block it since you'll be ahead later on (also have to consider your forge timing if you're FFE so as to prevent lings from running past your building cannon or forcing a cancel). One thing I do is I build the zealot, but cancel it once the Core is done if I (1) don't see any early pressure or (2) see an early Command Center. If they still try to block you after they put their expo down, then they either had to delay something (the bunker, marines, or SCVs) in order to squeeze it in. | ||
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
1) When is the right time to take the 3rd base? Terrans seem to get their 3rd faster than mine, while harassing me on 2 or 3 fronts. This leaves me economically behind, and coupled with the rest of my problems messed up the whole game. 2) From what I've seen on the replays attached to Creator's PvT guide, the protoss gets maxed around 17-18 and has a big chance to stomp the terran. I always get 3-3 around the right time, but I have between 150 and 170 supply, and there is no way I can make a reasonable push. Apart from the slow third, I think the low numbers of gates contributes to this too. I get 4 before 10 minutes, and about 3 more before 15 minutes. What is the optimal number of gateways for each base? 3) Supposed I am maxed at 17-18 minutes, with an advantage over my opponent. Should I have blink researched for my stalkers? Should I have ht with storms or only archons? How many colossi? 4) What is the optimal number of cannons to defend drops in each base? In this game I tried putting only 1 in the natural, and it didn't work well (one drop there killed about 11 of my probes, setting me behind). Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/268086http://drop.sc/268086 EDIT: here is an extra replay. At 18 minutes, I had about 140 supply....PvThttp://drop.sc/268090 Please note that I was very frustrated about my play and I was really bad mannered at the end, which is not my usual self. Also, I had a really bad engagement at my 3rd, when my units went between buildings into the meat grinder. Usually that doesn't happen, and is not a common mistake, so please focus your analysis on the other issues. Thank you in advance, and have a great day! | ||
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Mugya
36 Posts
On October 27 2012 06:05 Kinon wrote: Hello everyone. I'm a platinum noob and I have some questions regarding PvT. Note that I'm using Creator's double forge build. 1) When is the right time to take the 3rd base? Terrans seem to get their 3rd faster than mine, while harassing me on 2 or 3 fronts. This leaves me economically behind, and coupled with the rest of my problems messed up the whole game. 2) From what I've seen on the replays attached to Creator's PvT guide, the protoss gets maxed around 17-18 and has a big chance to stomp the terran. I always get 3-3 around the right time, but I have between 150 and 170 supply, and there is no way I can make a reasonable push. Apart from the slow third, I think the low numbers of gates contributes to this too. I get 4 before 10 minutes, and about 3 more before 15 minutes. What is the optimal number of gateways for each base? 3) Supposed I am maxed at 17-18 minutes, with an advantage over my opponent. Should I have blink researched for my stalkers? Should I have ht with storms or only archons? How many colossi? 4) What is the optimal number of cannons to defend drops in each base? In this game I tried putting only 1 in the natural, and it didn't work well (one drop there killed about 11 of my probes, setting me behind). Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/268086http://drop.sc/268086 Please note that I was very frustrated about my play and I was really bad mannered at the end, which is not my usual self. Also, I had a really bad engagement at my 3rd, when my units went between buildings into the meat grinder. Usually that doesn't happen, and is not a common mistake, so please focus your analysis on the other issues. Thank you in advance, and have a great day! 1) Having your third being somewhat behind his is not actually a bad thing, so much as you don't lose too much from the common Medivac timing pushes around 10 minutes. Once you deflect that, then you take your third and tech up to more Gateways and move your way to either Storm or Colossi. In other cases, scouting is most important on what your opponent is doing. If they're doing double Ebay, or have three bunkers at their front, then you can take your third a lot earlier since double upgrades will delay his Medivacs or lower his unit count, and bunkers remove any attacker's advantage they would have otherwise if they didn't have those bunkers. In perspective, three Bunkers is two Barracks they don't have to attack you with. 2) Depending on your choice of composition. If you're going more Robo-heavy, then you'd want roughly 8 Gateways and a Robo off 3 bases building Colossi. If you're going Gateway-heavy (Storm/Archon/Chargelot), then you can go up to 10-12+ off 3 bases. 3) If you're doing the Creator style, then you'll want Blink over Storm (to snipe Vikings if you went Colossus), Archons over Storm (since Archons benefit from your advantage, which is upgrades), and getting up to 3-4 Colossi, then the rest of your Robo time into Immortals or more Observers (Observers for the late-game for that inevitable large ghost count). 4) It depends how early or late into the game it is. In the beginning as you establish your third, you want to spend that money into your tech and gateways rather than cannons. Having idle Gateways is the best counter to drops. As the game progresses and you start moving your army moving out toward the middle of the map, then you want to add 2-3 cannons in your main and third while still semi-relying on idle Gateways as your defense. You can be more liberal with cannons as you establish your 4th/5th and so on since you should be rolling in minerals at that point (Also having HTs sprinkled around bases is great for feedback too, reducing the effectiveness of the Medivac or just potentially killing them outright). | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
2) Sounds like you have macro issues if you aren't maxed by 17 minutes, assuming no major engagement has happened. The favoured setup for Creator's build is to go 3gate robo -> double forge/twilight council -> colossus -> 3rd or 2 extra gates if terran is being greedy -> 3rd base -> extra gates as needed. A good gateway count is about 10 or so on 3bases before maxing, and then adding to it and going up to 20ish when you first max out. 3) You should always research blink the instant the twilight council finishes with creator's build. Also, that build tends to delay storm to hit a maxed 3/3 archon/zealot/stalker/colossus timing. Most colossus pvt openings cut production at 3, which is what Creator does. 4) 1-2 plus one templar per base. Defending drops is more about vision and map awareness than cannons. Edit: watching the replay now. Outside of the somewhat obvious macro issues that are always present at your level, here's a few notes as i go through: 1) Gasses at the nat are too fast by about one minute and as a result you end up being really mineral starved 2) Templar archives is too fast, you can't afford it on 2 bases with double forge. 3) You need to get a group of blink stalkers in your main to defend from drops and later to protect your colossi. 6 is a good number to defend drops, i like about 10 vs vikings. 4) You should have scouted his third base much earlier. Once terran takes his third, so should you. Because your third is so late, eventually his macro advantage just snowballs. 5) Your forges are idle for a good 1-2 minutes and they could be chronoboosted a bit more. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
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Mugya
36 Posts
On October 27 2012 10:10 eugalp wrote: I think Creator's build might be a bit too hard to execute and too unforgiving for someone in plat to use as their main PvT build. It's hard for someone in plat to know how greedy/safe they need to be and how to properly react to the many things a terran can be doing in midgame. It is hard to make use of blink without having excellent map vision and good reaction time. Also, with so few units early on, micro or positioning mistakes are just game ending. That may be true, but I doubt many Terrans at Platinum are able to get a good 10 Medivac minute push in like mostDiamond/Masters+ can. Regardless of the build, there's just points in the order where you'll just die to dumb things right away, which I think is a good way to learn both macro and micro during main junctures in the build where you need to defend. Either way, if you like doing CreatorPrime style macro builds, then I think that's what you should strictly learn. | ||
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
On October 27 2012 10:10 eugalp wrote: I think Creator's build might be a bit too hard to execute and too unforgiving for someone in plat to use as their main PvT build. It's hard for someone in plat to know how greedy/safe they need to be and how to properly react to the many things a terran can be doing in midgame. It is hard to make use of blink without having excellent map vision and good reaction time. Also, with so few units early on, micro or positioning mistakes are just game ending. Its such a standard macro pvt that i actually highly recommend it. It opens safe and helps nuture map awareness and multi tasking. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
The Double phoenix build is where you delay the transition to colossus by a lot and just stick to immortals for a bit til you have like 10 phoenixes then you get your robo bay and all that other jazz | ||
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wajd
240 Posts
Any Protoss experts feel like helping me understand why I've reached my ceiling? I have to why I wasted 3 years of my life. Please let me know if anybody out there can HELP ME. Thank you. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On October 27 2012 14:51 wajd wrote: I've been Plat for 2.5 years as Protoss. I lost pretty much every game I played tonight. Obviously I cannot go any further. Any Protoss experts feel like helping me understand why I've reached my ceiling? I have to why I wasted 3 years of my life. Please let me know if anybody out there can HELP ME. Thank you. you should specify what help are you looking for? Coaching, going over replays, proper build orders just to name a few | ||
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Mugya
36 Posts
On October 27 2012 14:48 .kv wrote: What's a proper response in PvP where protoss opens up robo and expands and goes into double stargate phoenix...is there a specific timing I can hit...I usually go robo expand The Double phoenix build is where you delay the transition to colossus by a lot and just stick to immortals for a bit til you have like 10 phoenixes then you get your robo bay and all that other jazz If he dedicates that much gas into Phoenix... just make mass Blink and go kill him. Phoenix won't trade efficiently with blink stalkers even if he makes a ton of them since stalkers are cheaper than Phoenix both in gas and minerals. Another choice you could go is make Chargelot/Archon and charge toward his base. FF won't save him and phoenixes can't lift Archons, plus lifting Zealots kinda won't make too big of a difference unless you were behind in any way (he got his expo up much sooner than you, you lost a big engagement beforehand, etc.) | ||
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Mugya
36 Posts
On October 27 2012 14:51 wajd wrote: I've been Plat for 2.5 years as Protoss. I lost pretty much every game I played tonight. Obviously I cannot go any further. Any Protoss experts feel like helping me understand why I've reached my ceiling? I have to why I wasted 3 years of my life. Please let me know if anybody out there can HELP ME. Thank you. One thing that helped me a lot is working on very specific things. I wanted to improve but I had to make very specific goals and plans to improve and make gradual improvements rather than big leaps. For me, it helps a lot to just stick with one thing and just practice and practice until you get everything down (expo timings, building timings, keeping up worker count, and so on). Sure, you'll die to dumb things every now and then but it gives you ideas of what you can and can't get away with. tl;dr - just work on improving one thing at a time. As long as you know what you're working on you'll see results. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On October 27 2012 16:22 Mugya wrote: One thing that helped me a lot is working on very specific things. I wanted to improve but I had to make very specific goals and plans to improve and make gradual improvements rather than big leaps. For me, it helps a lot to just stick with one thing and just practice and practice until you get everything down (expo timings, building timings, keeping up worker count, and so on). Sure, you'll die to dumb things every now and then but it gives you ideas of what you can and can't get away with. tl;dr - just work on improving one thing at a time. As long as you know what you're working on you'll see results. Also i remember when i was in plat I watched too much streams. I would see a cool trick in some toss stream and try it out without understanding (even though I thought i did) what it actually did. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 27 2012 14:48 .kv wrote: What's a proper response in PvP where protoss opens up robo and expands and goes into double stargate phoenix...is there a specific timing I can hit...I usually go robo expand The Double phoenix build is where you delay the transition to colossus by a lot and just stick to immortals for a bit til you have like 10 phoenixes then you get your robo bay and all that other jazz I'd like to see a replay but i'm pretty sure there should be a timing with like 1 colossus with no range and 6-7 gates to just go kill him. Also 6-7 gate blink might be another strong timing, but i'm not sure if you can do it reactively. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
Of course he played super greedy early in the game but that's b/c he saw me expand faster so generally I would be playing a bit more defensive than him. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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brofestor
Singapore101 Posts
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wajd
240 Posts
On October 27 2012 16:09 MysteryMeat1 wrote: you should specify what help are you looking for? Coaching, going over replays, proper build orders just to name a few Thats the problem. I've tried everything, except coaching, because I don't have the money for it. | ||
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