EPTI don't believe Gate/Gas is better than FFE either. Heck, FFE may actually be better (sad to say). It's a stylistic choice for me.
Edit/ 1000 posts! A Corsair. Nice.
Edited as per below.
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 356
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
I don't believe Gate/Gas is better than FFE either. Heck, FFE may actually be better (sad to say). It's a stylistic choice for me. Edit/ 1000 posts! A Corsair. Nice. Edited as per below. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On October 21 2012 15:50 ineversmile wrote: Thanks, man. I'll see if I can stream more in the future, then. I have a nice fat donut count of followers, thus far, so there hasn't been much motivation to play with some lag from the stream, but I'm more than willing to put out some content if people enjoy it. Well, I've watched a few of your games on your Twitch vods (I don't follow anyone though). The last was a couple of weeks ago, I think, a PvZ on TDA. It looked like one of those games against Z where you think you are doing lots of good things and die regardless. All Protoss have these games from time to time, I think. I have not watched many of any stream recently and have hardly played any SC2 as I have been too busy irl. But, yeah, if you stream some games, I'll definitely give them a watch. | ||
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Vermiiifuuge
Korea (South)112 Posts
On October 22 2012 04:23 aZealot wrote: In any case, if Zerg is going gas/pool he won't be able to get a 4.30 third regardless. That said, Zergs can take the 3rd earlier than they think. This is usually at around the ~6.00 - ~7.00 minute mark soon after the Protoss natural goes down. The option here for the Protoss is the Nexus cancel but that's a little dicey, IMO, especially with Overlord parking spots. I don't believe Gate/Gas is better than FFE either. Heck, FFE may actually be better (sad to say). It's more a stylistic choice. Edit/ 1000 posts! A Corsair. Nice. There is a reason FFE is the standard opening of choice in PvZ. It's better. It's not just a stylistic choice. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
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IM_Pallypal
Canada6 Posts
My question is, how do I deal with that? Do I just need to have enough gates out by the time they get it up that I can get enough zealots to protect my stalkers? I know Archons are great against it, but it tends to be too late by the tme I get them up, they've already got around 20 or 30 of them by the time I get around 3 archons. They're in a much higher league than I am, but I still feel like I'm just doing something terribly wrong. When should I be applying pressure on a FFE? | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On October 22 2012 09:04 IM_Pallypal wrote: Alright, I've been doing some practice matches against a zerg friend of mine, and they consistently have been going for fast expand into ling/muta. My question is, how do I deal with that? Do I just need to have enough gates out by the time they get it up that I can get enough zealots to protect my stalkers? I know Archons are great against it, but it tends to be too late by the tme I get them up, they've already got around 20 or 30 of them by the time I get around 3 archons. They're in a much higher league than I am, but I still feel like I'm just doing something terribly wrong. When should I be applying pressure on a FFE? If they are going muta/ling then you need to go blink stalker with storm added later on. The early you take a 3rd against this unit comp the better. The later you take 3rds against mutas the harder it is to defend them. If you can keep on defending reasonably well just get close to max and move out. You should leave 3-4 hts around ur base to storm mutas that come in. I personally also like to complete the wall off once you move it because it will slow down base race scenarios. If he decides to transition into muta/ling/bling then storm and ff is whats gonna let you clean up. Also having 2 archons in ur army isn't a bad thing. However HTs are far better damage dealers. EDIT: heres a link for dealing with mutas. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788 | ||
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IM_Pallypal
Canada6 Posts
I also have reservations about HTs against mutas; The flock is just going to move out of it, no? That's what's happened when I put one down before. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On October 22 2012 10:14 IM_Pallypal wrote: I understand why HT is a good idea, but The majority of the time I'm not deep enough in my tech to get them out before my econ is so far behind I can't pull out. I also have reservations about HTs against mutas; The flock is just going to move out of it, no? That's what's happened when I put one down before. Hts at least can hit mutas while the muta will just run away from archons. Also when you move out to attack then the storm will not only hit the mutas but the lings as well. Also when you are attacking the mutalisk can't simply run away. If your too far behind in the beginning it means ur scouting is lacking. One tell is that if you only see zerglings then you know he is saving his gas for either mutalisk or infestors. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On October 22 2012 04:30 Vermiiifuuge wrote:There is a reason FFE is the standard opening of choice in PvZ. It's better. It's not just a stylistic choice. No. First of all, FFE is worse than Gateway first against an early pool (6-10 pool). If you open 13 gate by your Nexus against an early pool, it's a build order win. If they open early pool and you went FFE, you have to cancel your Nexus, sac a Pylon and sometimes a Forge, you have to spend 150 on a cannon in your mineral line, and then you basically have to use a Gateway expo from there forward. If you open Gate first, you're a few steps ahead: you keep your pylons, you have the Gateway already, and a boosted Zealot comes out a few seconds after the zerglings get to your mineral line. Then, you boost a Stalker, and you have map control. The best opening zerg has against Gateway first? Gas/Pool. But if you wall off properly and build some units, you beat the all-ins. If they just speedling expand? Who cares? You're ahead because they killed one of their drones and had 3 of them mine gas for a minute before building a hatchery. Not to mention that it's really, really easy to scout a 14/14, so you can actually react to it, but it's impossible to scout a 6pool and then decide not to build your 9 pylon on the low ground. The most dangerous thing they can do, if you prepare for the all-ins, is build the magic number of zerglings to deny your expansion while they get theirs up. But they can't do that, drone up, and also be safe against tech-based attacks that don't care about speedlings. That's where things like DTs, drops, and Stargate play can even that back out or even outright kill the zerg. Building a cannon against Triple Hatch is like throwing 150 minerals into the garbage. Do cannons walk out onto the map and kill overlords? Do they take watchtowers? Do they cancel third bases? No, on all accounts. If you build a cannon at your natural and your opponent drones up, you just dumped a lot of money into something that doesn't do anything. Oh, it keeps those pesky zerglings from doing damage, right? Who cares? Sure, you can use cannons offensively, but you have to build them on the other side of the map, and they can't go on creep. Guess what can be built in your base for defense and then go do economic damage if there's nothing to defend against? Zealots and Stalkers. It's not like I have anything against putting up some defense, but building static defense at that stage of the game is stifling, and And drone count? If you FFE and you're not doing the SaSe style where you build a second pylon (one in your main and one at the natural, in whichever order), that means you're significantly cutting probes for a while. First you have to build Nexus+Forge in whichever order. Then you have to add a pylon. You miss probe production, which means less mining time, and he's at a similar drone count during all of this. If you open gateway, you don't cut probes until you're close to 30 supply, so you have full saturation with a gas or two and the constant probes means you're 4-5 workers higher until the first inject finishes and 4 larvae are turned into drones. By that point, you have mined more money for a couple full minutes, and then that first inject only brings the zerg to parity with a gateway expo, as both players have low-mid 20s for worker count. You're not actually behind; you're even. Are the probe numbers the same as with a FFE? No. But is that actually relevant? No. I don't care about my probe count; I care about the comparison between probe count and drone count. That's what actually matters. The benchmarks for "at 8 minutes FFE has this many probes and Gateway Expo has that many probes" are just stupid. It should always be about how the protoss looks by comparison to the zerg. That's like looking at a 15 point tied basketball game in the second quarter and saying "The Bulls are playing horribly; they only have 15 points!" when they're actually doing just fine because they're tied with the other team. Sure, you can derive some information from that scoreboard; it points to defense overpowering offense in the case of both teams, or players not getting hot yet. But a tied game is a tied game. A lead is a lead. Those are the things that matter. The reason why FFE is the standard is that gateway expansions are more difficult to execute, require more elaborate defenses against 14/14s, and are not as refined as the FFE. None of those reasons translate into the FFE being better than a Gateway expansion. Remember when people thought you had to get 3 gateways before expanding? Remember when Shakuras Plateau was thought to be an excellent map for macro games? Remember when GSL players were having problems accurately hitting the forcefield on the ramp to their main to defend against a 2rax? Popularity and greatness do not necessarily go hand-in-hand, and there is always the possibility that everyone is, in fact, dead wrong about an idea. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/266890 | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
However, Ineversmile, your posts drive me insane. Seriously if this was bw i'd grudgematch you. You really, really sound like someone who spends more time watching streams instead of playing the game, and thinking he understands the game as a result. You consistently post things that are outright wrong, or at best correct in such a limited context it's not even relevant. I mean i've seen you post that 2base carrier is actually a good pvt build, what the hell is up with that...now, onto your most recent wall of text: + Show Spoiler + First of all, FFE is worse than Gateway first against an early pool (6-10 pool). If you open 13 gate by your Nexus against an early pool, it's a build order win. If they open early pool and you went FFE, you have to cancel your Nexus, sac a Pylon and sometimes a Forge, you have to spend 150 on a cannon in your mineral line, and then you basically have to use a Gateway expo from there forward. If you open Gate first, you're a few steps ahead: you keep your pylons, you have the Gateway already, and a boosted Zealot comes out a few seconds after the zerglings get to your mineral line. Then, you boost a Stalker, and you have map control. The only reasonable part in your usual unnecessary wall of text. Also pretty irrelevant considering 6pool is pretty rare anyway, and getting a cannon in your main and gateway expanding after is ok anyway. Having a bo win once every, i don't know, 20 ish games (number i pulled out of my ass) is a pretty stupid reason to drastically change openings. + Show Spoiler + The best opening zerg has against Gateway first? Gas/Pool. But if you wall off properly and build some units, you beat the all-ins. If they just speedling expand? Who cares? You're ahead because they killed one of their drones and had 3 of them mine gas for a minute before building a hatchery. Not to mention that it's really, really easy to scout a 14/14, so you can actually react to it, but it's impossible to scout a 6pool and then decide not to build your 9 pylon on the low ground. The most dangerous thing they can do, if you prepare for the all-ins, is build the magic number of zerglings to deny your expansion while they get theirs up. But they can't do that, drone up, and also be safe against tech-based attacks that don't care about speedlings. That's where things like DTs, drops, and Stargate play can even that back out or even outright kill the zerg. No it isn't. Going 15 pool 15 hatch and taking a gas reactively to the gateway expand is, in general, a better opening because it sacrifices less economy, can still have a reasonably well timed ling speed (6.15 ish), take a faster natural and third, has a better economy and hold any kind of one base gayness protoss can throw at people. All if this traded for map control between 5.15-5.45 (when speed finishes for speedling expand) and 6.15 when a reactive gas should have speed. 1-2 stalkers pressuring aren't even that threatening and on modern maps one spine, the queen and a handful of lings to the job just fine. Gateway expand is not ahead of speedling expand by default, and indeed that's one of the reasons that brought people to FFE. One base tech hasn't killed a Zerg since like early 2011. I have no idea what you mean by saying "they can't drone up, be safe vs tech and cancel your nexus at the same time". If they cancel your nexus they don't really care about droning up in the first place because you are only on one base. + Show Spoiler + Building a cannon against Triple Hatch is like throwing 150 minerals into the garbage. Do cannons walk out onto the map and kill overlords? Do they take watchtowers? Do they cancel third bases? No, on all accounts. If you build a cannon at your natural and your opponent drones up, you just dumped a lot of money into something that doesn't do anything. Oh, it keeps those pesky zerglings from doing damage, right? Who cares? Sure, you can use cannons offensively, but you have to build them on the other side of the map, and they can't go on creep. Guess what can be built in your base for defense and then go do economic damage if there's nothing to defend against? Zealots and Stalkers. It's not like I have anything against putting up some defense, but building static defense at that stage of the game is stifling, and Nothing out of gateway expand can cancel a third base if the Zerg doesn't fuck up, save for perhaps a really fast dt rush that's easily scouted and such a big investment that it's not even worth doing it. As i posted earlier, zealot/stalker pokes aren't that damaging against Zergs that don't get completely caught off guard. Sure that also happens at the pro level, but if you are going to hope your opponent fucks up to do econ damage you might as well dt rush every game. Cannons, or at the very least a pretty strict followup, are also required off gateway expand to be safe vs oldschool roach ling alins anyway. Also, gateway expand has a harder time pressuring because committing a bunch of full energy sentries to playing offensively is risky as fuck. See my posts in this page and the one before. + Show Spoiler + And drone count? If you FFE and you're not doing the SaSe style where you build a second pylon (one in your main and one at the natural, in whichever order), that means you're significantly cutting probes for a while. First you have to build Nexus+Forge in whichever order. Then you have to add a pylon. You miss probe production, which means less mining time, and he's at a similar drone count during all of this. If you open gateway, you don't cut probes until you're close to 30 supply, so you have full saturation with a gas or two and the constant probes means you're 4-5 workers higher until the first inject finishes and 4 larvae are turned into drones. By that point, you have mined more money for a couple full minutes, and then that first inject only brings the zerg to parity with a gateway expo, as both players have low-mid 20s for worker count. You're not actually behind; you're even. Are the probe numbers the same as with a FFE? No. But is that actually relevant? No. I don't care about my probe count; I care about the comparison between probe count and drone count. That's what actually matters. The benchmarks for "at 8 minutes FFE has this many probes and Gateway Expo has that many probes" are just stupid. It should always be about how the protoss looks by comparison to the zerg. That's like looking at a 15 point tied basketball game in the second quarter and saying "The Bulls are playing horribly; they only have 15 points!" when they're actually doing just fine because they're tied with the other team. Sure, you can derive some information from that scoreboard; it points to defense overpowering offense in the case of both teams, or players not getting hot yet. But a tied game is a tied game. A lead is a lead. Those are the things that matter. I don't know what the SaSe style is, but by going forge->nexus->pylon->cannon you hardly have any probe cuts, and nexus first obviously gives you an insane economy despite the probe cut if you go 17 nex/forge/gateway. Your economy relevant to a Zerg that doesn't fuck up is better than with gateway expand; no gatewy expand build is even in workers to the Zerg up to the 8 minute mark. + Show Spoiler + The reason why FFE is the standard is that gateway expansions are more difficult to execute, require more elaborate defenses against 14/14s, and are not as refined as the FFE. None of those reasons translate into the FFE being better than a Gateway expansion. Remember when people thought you had to get 3 gateways before expanding? Remember when Shakuras Plateau was thought to be an excellent map for macro games? Remember when GSL players were having problems accurately hitting the forcefield on the ramp to their main to defend against a 2rax? Popularity and greatness do not necessarily go hand-in-hand, and there is always the possibility that everyone is, in fact, dead wrong about an idea. What the hell. Modern gateway expand builds hold off roach ling allins or baneling busts much, MUCH easier than ffe because 1) by the time they hit you willl have more sentries, sentry energy, and units out and 2) with ffe you have to do pretty different things vs busts or 2base tech, which isn't the case for gateway expand, and it's damn hard to squeeze probes past speedlings. Indeed, gateway expand USED to be destroyed by roach/ling allins until the followups to it became much more rigid, delaying tech for more units and even a cannon or two for safety. This was one of the many factors that contributed to the rise of FFE. I do agree that using games from gsl open seasons isn't relevant though...you know, like when people thought sentry expands and sentry pressure were a good standard way to play. Oh wait. By the way, i love how you talk about outdated openings not being relevant anymore such as 3gate expand, and then use speedling expand as a benchmark for the Zerg. Makes a whole lot of sense...not. I like gateway expands as a change of pace build to throw in once in a while, more than many other people in fact, but no, it's NOT a standard, go-to opening anymore. We indeed don't know everything about this game yet, and it's entirely possible that in time, we will realise there's a way to gateway expand that is superior to current FFE. However, nothing currently indicates that this will be the case, and the arguments you've made are ludicrous. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 22 2012 17:29 Chandra wrote: I recently played a PvP where I went for a 2 gate expand into robo, and my opponent was going for a 1 base colossus all-in. He ended up getting 2 colossi with range (no immortals) supported by gateway units. I assumed the best defense was going to consist of zealot, stalker, sentry, immortal, but I found that the colossi with range were able to kite my stuff really efficiently, and I couldn't really get damage on them with the lesser ranged immortals with gateway units buffering. In this particular game I engage really poorly, losing too much stuff to zealots and force fields, but that aside what would have been the best way to engage in this instance? Or should I have waited until I had more stuff given that I had an econ advantage? Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/266890 If he delays his push to get range, which you should scout with an obs (not sure if you can do it with 2gate->expand->robo though), what you can do is 1) try to get your own colossus up or 2) get a warp prism after a few immortals to flank him and drop immortals next to his colossi; 1base colossus will have very few stalkers most likely. In general, such a delayed push is less common because by that time you will have a ton more stuff as your 2base economy will have kicked in. The other tip is to engage farther back, let him come up the ramp instead of you going down through a choke. | ||
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brofestor
Singapore101 Posts
if not, what is a "better" all-in that might work better, pre-hive timing? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On October 22 2012 17:55 Teoita wrote: What kcdc said. It's pretty much a lost cause though :/ However, Ineversmile, your posts drive me insane. Seriously if this was bw i'd grudgematch you. You really, really sound like someone who spends more time watching streams instead of playing the game, and thinking he understands the game as a result. You consistently post things that are outright wrong, or at best correct in such a limited context it's not even relevant. I mean i've seen you post that 2base carrier is actually a good pvt build, what the hell is up with that...now, onto your most recent wall of text: Good! I hope I'm driving people insane. I think it's crazy that everyone just assumes the FFE is the best choice, and then the only arguments I ever hear or read is that it has arbitrary benchmarks for having a better worker count in a vacuum, or that it's safer than opening with a Gateway. Maybe I'm dead wrong about it, but I would rather know that I'm wrong because of logic, not because the FFE is the most popular opening in PvZ. I don't know why you're dogging my long posts, either. I'm passionate about this game, I have a lot of things to say, and I happen to type very quickly. + Show Spoiler + First of all, FFE is worse than Gateway first against an early pool (6-10 pool). If you open 13 gate by your Nexus against an early pool, it's a build order win. If they open early pool and you went FFE, you have to cancel your Nexus, sac a Pylon and sometimes a Forge, you have to spend 150 on a cannon in your mineral line, and then you basically have to use a Gateway expo from there forward. If you open Gate first, you're a few steps ahead: you keep your pylons, you have the Gateway already, and a boosted Zealot comes out a few seconds after the zerglings get to your mineral line. Then, you boost a Stalker, and you have map control. The only reasonable part in your usual unnecessary wall of text. Also pretty irrelevant considering 6pool is pretty rare anyway, and getting a cannon in your main and gateway expanding after is ok anyway. Having a bo win once every, i don't know, 20 ish games (number i pulled out of my ass) is a pretty stupid reason to drastically change openings.[/quote] I think it's more common than 1/20 games starting with an early pool, but let's just hypothetically say it is 1/20 games. That's still 5% more wins because you start the game with a build order win. That's a non-zero increase in your win rate. You can't ignore that. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + The best opening zerg has against Gateway first? Gas/Pool. But if you wall off properly and build some units, you beat the all-ins. If they just speedling expand? Who cares? You're ahead because they killed one of their drones and had 3 of them mine gas for a minute before building a hatchery. Not to mention that it's really, really easy to scout a 14/14, so you can actually react to it, but it's impossible to scout a 6pool and then decide not to build your 9 pylon on the low ground. The most dangerous thing they can do, if you prepare for the all-ins, is build the magic number of zerglings to deny your expansion while they get theirs up. But they can't do that, drone up, and also be safe against tech-based attacks that don't care about speedlings. That's where things like DTs, drops, and Stargate play can even that back out or even outright kill the zerg. No it isn't. Going 15 pool 15 hatch and taking a gas reactively to the gateway expand is, in general, a better opening because it sacrifices less economy, can still have a reasonably well timed ling speed (6.15 ish), take a faster natural and third, has a better economy and hold any kind of one base gayness protoss can throw at people. All if this traded for map control between 5.15-5.45 (when speed finishes for speedling expand) and 6.15 when a reactive gas should have speed. 1-2 stalkers pressuring aren't even that threatening and on modern maps one spine, the queen and a handful of lings to the job just fine. Gateway expand is not ahead of speedling expand by default, and indeed that's one of the reasons that brought people to FFE. One base tech hasn't killed a Zerg since like early 2011. I have no idea what you mean by saying "they can't drone up, be safe vs tech and cancel your nexus at the same time". If they cancel your nexus they don't really care about droning up in the first place because you are only on one base. Here, I was mistaken with my word choice. I agree 100% that the seemingly correct zerg response is to transition from a standard opener into a gas after Hatch+Pool (in whichever order they build those). What I should have said was that the most dangerous aggression a Zerg can pull is from gas/pool. That was a big goof on my part. If they do that, the game is about even. They get their ling speed done by sometime after the 7 minute mark, so the toss will see the timing of the third and the droning at the natural before speed is done and air units/heavy pressure is needed to scout. So what I was trying to say about gas/pool is that, zerg all-ins aside, a speedling expand basically needs to cancel the hatch in order to put the zerg at an advantage. However, that's balanced against the amount of lings needed to actually get the cancel off. If the zerg builds too many lings, those aren't drones and that means the protoss isn't super behind on economy and can handle a delayed natural while he techs/builds up more forces to push out. If the zerg doesn't build enough lings, then the nexus won't go down, and the protoss has a slight advantage or at least parity. Bottomline: ideally, the zerg wants to make the magic number of lings that can cancel the nexus with some gateway units around, but won't put the zerg in the hole too much in terms of economy and tech. We can agree on this, right? So that's the most dangerous curveball they can throw, in my opinion, without attempting a bust. If it's a bust, you don't need your natural at all. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + Building a cannon against Triple Hatch is like throwing 150 minerals into the garbage. Do cannons walk out onto the map and kill overlords? Do they take watchtowers? Do they cancel third bases? No, on all accounts. If you build a cannon at your natural and your opponent drones up, you just dumped a lot of money into something that doesn't do anything. Oh, it keeps those pesky zerglings from doing damage, right? Who cares? Sure, you can use cannons offensively, but you have to build them on the other side of the map, and they can't go on creep. Guess what can be built in your base for defense and then go do economic damage if there's nothing to defend against? Zealots and Stalkers. It's not like I have anything against putting up some defense, but building static defense at that stage of the game is stifling, and Nothing out of gateway expand can cancel a third base if the Zerg doesn't fuck up, save for perhaps a really fast dt rush that's easily scouted and such a big investment that it's not even worth doing it. As i posted earlier, zealot/stalker pokes aren't that damaging against Zergs that don't get completely caught off guard. Sure that also happens at the pro level, but if you are going to hope your opponent fucks up to do econ damage you might as well dt rush every game. Cannons, or at the very least a pretty strict followup, are also required off gateway expand to be safe vs oldschool roach ling alins anyway. Also, gateway expand has a harder time pressuring because committing a bunch of full energy sentries to playing offensively is risky as fuck. See my posts in this page and the one before. You don't need to cancel the third. If they build a third, that's a drone and 300 minerals invested into a hatchery. That's not money invested into spines, or into more queens. That means less stuff at the natural for defense, so you can go get a couple drones and/or force more lings, or you could kill a queen. I'll happily kill a queen and 4 lings (aka 2 drones) for the price of one stalker, send the other one home, and feel very comfortable against zerg. Or if I get a couple overlords? Good enough for me. That's the point; you're boosting probes 3-4 times and then building a Nexus in the mid-high 20s for supply after making only 1-3 gateway units. You honestly don't need to do much with that group of units, and you don't have to do anything specific. It's all about just doing something to mess with the zerg's plans so he can't just play solitaire; even if he only make 6 more lings, that's still 3 dead drones and you can save your stalkers if you don't fall asleep at the wheel. There are a number of different roach/ling all-ins. If it comes from gas/pool, then sure you want a cannon, but that's fine because gas/pool is a cheesey opening and you don't play against it the same way you would against reactive gas. And if it's reactive gas after Pool+Hatch, then they can't have fast roaches and that 7:15ish ling speed timing, or it's only a really small number of roaches. Against that attack, you can have a Void Ray out about 20 seconds into the rush. All it takes is some gateway units, a void ray, and a good sim-city to deflect that. Additionally, you will know about this timing well in advance because you will see no third hatch, less droning, and often the slow roaches moving across the map. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + And drone count? If you FFE and you're not doing the SaSe style where you build a second pylon (one in your main and one at the natural, in whichever order), that means you're significantly cutting probes for a while. First you have to build Nexus+Forge in whichever order. Then you have to add a pylon. You miss probe production, which means less mining time, and he's at a similar drone count during all of this. If you open gateway, you don't cut probes until you're close to 30 supply, so you have full saturation with a gas or two and the constant probes means you're 4-5 workers higher until the first inject finishes and 4 larvae are turned into drones. By that point, you have mined more money for a couple full minutes, and then that first inject only brings the zerg to parity with a gateway expo, as both players have low-mid 20s for worker count. You're not actually behind; you're even. Are the probe numbers the same as with a FFE? No. But is that actually relevant? No. I don't care about my probe count; I care about the comparison between probe count and drone count. That's what actually matters. The benchmarks for "at 8 minutes FFE has this many probes and Gateway Expo has that many probes" are just stupid. It should always be about how the protoss looks by comparison to the zerg. That's like looking at a 15 point tied basketball game in the second quarter and saying "The Bulls are playing horribly; they only have 15 points!" when they're actually doing just fine because they're tied with the other team. Sure, you can derive some information from that scoreboard; it points to defense overpowering offense in the case of both teams, or players not getting hot yet. But a tied game is a tied game. A lead is a lead. Those are the things that matter. I don't know what the SaSe style is, but by going forge->nexus->pylon->cannon you hardly have any probe cuts, and nexus first obviously gives you an insane economy despite the probe cut if you go 17 nex/forge/gateway. Your economy relevant to a Zerg that doesn't fuck up is better than with gateway expand; no gatewy expand build is even in workers to the Zerg up to the 8 minute mark. The SaSe style is where you FFE, but you build a pylon behind your mineral line in your main so that, in case of an early pool, you already have a pylon there and you can put your forge there as well to be less behind from the rush. This is as opposed to losing the Forge as well as the pylon on the low ground. You also probe up a little harder before the nexus because you have a second pylon, so you can go above 18 supply and wait on the Nexus if you really want. Otherwise, you have to stop probe production at some point, usually 15-17 supply. Even if it's on 17, with one scouting probe and 2 workers per patch, you cut about 2 probes to build your second pylon and forge (if you go Nexus first on 17). + Show Spoiler + The reason why FFE is the standard is that gateway expansions are more difficult to execute, require more elaborate defenses against 14/14s, and are not as refined as the FFE. None of those reasons translate into the FFE being better than a Gateway expansion. Remember when people thought you had to get 3 gateways before expanding? Remember when Shakuras Plateau was thought to be an excellent map for macro games? Remember when GSL players were having problems accurately hitting the forcefield on the ramp to their main to defend against a 2rax? Popularity and greatness do not necessarily go hand-in-hand, and there is always the possibility that everyone is, in fact, dead wrong about an idea. What the hell. Modern gateway expand builds hold off roach ling allins or baneling busts much, MUCH easier than ffe because 1) by the time they hit you willl have more sentries, sentry energy, and units out and 2) with ffe you have to do pretty different things vs busts or 2base tech, which isn't the case for gateway expand, and it's damn hard to squeeze probes past speedlings. Indeed, gateway expand USED to be destroyed by roach/ling allins until the followups to it became much more rigid, delaying tech for more units and even a cannon or two for safety. This was one of the many factors that contributed to the rise of FFE. I do agree that using games from gsl open seasons isn't relevant though...you know, like when people thought sentry expands and sentry pressure were a good standard way to play. Oh wait. By the way, i love how you talk about outdated openings not being relevant anymore such as 3gate expand, and then use speedling expand as a benchmark for the Zerg. Makes a whole lot of sense...not. They are very relevant because they are outdated That's my point, exactly. Gateway expansions like ye olde 3gate expo were popular back when players and maps were so much worse. Then the FFE started taking over because it was just better than those old gateway expos. And now, since the vast majority of players FFE, there is way more data and refinement to that opening than there is to 1gate or 2gate expansions, which are basically only a couple of months old. And back in the day, gateway expanding meant getting a ton of sentries because almost everyone needed basically triple the forcefield energy because we all sucked, but that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing now. You don't have to base your defense on sentries; you can base them on combat units, if you want. That is an option.... I like gateway expands as a change of pace build to throw in once in a while, more than many other people in fact, but no, it's NOT a standard, go-to opening anymore. And that's why I had to bring up ancient history: When the hell was gateway openings the standard? It had to be before FFE took over, well over a year ago...a year and a half-ish? Since then, it has been almost exclusively FFE. So how much data do we have for 1-gate expos at a high level? A couple handfuls of games from Seed, Naniwa, and a couple other players from the Korean scene? We probably know more about 2-gate expos simply because this is Team Liquid's forum, and one of the players on that team opens 2-gate sentry expand all the time (or did; he's on a sabbatical)...plus, that opening is much more of a derivative of the old 3-gate expands than the 1-gate expo is. The 1-gate expo is basically like a PvT MC FE, but played against zerg. We indeed don't know everything about this game yet, and it's entirely possible that in time, we will realise there's a way to gateway expand that is superior to current FFE. However, nothing currently indicates that this will be the case, and the arguments you've made are ludicrous. I think I made one ludicrous argument because I completely botched what I was trying to say about gas/pool openings and ultimately glossed over the standard response. That was, admittedly, idiotic. Still, I don't think the rest of my thoughts were absurd. And since we collectively don't know everything about the game yet, then how are we supposed to assume that the FFE is the better opening? Where's the proof? We know they're better than the really old 3gate expos, but better than a 1-gate expo? What makes it better? I don't know; maybe it was foolhardy to bring it up in the first place. Or maybe I should have started a new thread for it...but chances are so high that it would have erupted into a flamewar or something, and that's totally not my goal. I guess I was just fed up with people blindly declaring the FFE being better than everything else, but there's never any reasoning for it. I think it warrants a discussion, but I'm probably being an idiot for trying to do that on the TL forum. If a mod wants to move this to another thread or just tell me to STFU about it, that's fine--I may be outspoken, but I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes. Oh, and if this was The Frozen Throne, I would totally grudgematch you too, Teoita, just out of respect for a good duel.  | ||
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