EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 291
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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Hayang
United States22 Posts
So could you suggest the one or two all-ins or timings you think are most powerful against each race? EDIT FOR SENTINEL ABOVE ME: Your situation sounds about normal if you're scouting with an observer, but you should probably know earlier that he hasn't expanded and is going to all-in you. You basically macro for a little bit and then churn out a zealot-sentry-immortal (chrono) army from 4-5 gate robo with only as many stalkers as necessary to deal with banshees. If you scout a 2-starport push or you know he has more than 3 banshees, put down about 4-5 cannons at your front. I find that ~3 cannons are usually helpful for stopping lower league pushes as it makes them hesitate which is great for you. focus immortals on tanks, and forcefield the army and put up guardian shield. most 111s at lower leagues suck and you will roll them. Q-tip has a good guide for defending the 1-1-1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On July 21 2012 01:18 Hayang wrote: I'm a platinum player and I'd like to try doing some good all-ins, or at least some dependable timing attacks. As it is my play is very macro-focused and passive so I'd like to explore the options I have. I also would like to have some fun with a hyper-aggressive style. So could you suggest the one or two all-ins or timings you think are most powerful against each race? EDIT FOR SENTINEL ABOVE ME: Your situation sounds about normal if you're scouting with an observer, but you should probably know earlier that he hasn't expanded and is going to all-in you. You basically macro for a little bit and then churn out a zealot-sentry-immortal (chrono) army from 4-5 gate robo with only as many stalkers as necessary to deal with banshees. If you scout a 2-starport push or you know he has more than 3 banshees, put down about 4-5 cannons at your front. I find that ~3 cannons are usually helpful for stopping lower league pushes as it makes them hesitate which is great for you. focus immortals on tanks, and forcefield the army and put up guardian shield. most 111s at lower leagues suck and you will roll them. Q-tip has a good guide for defending the 1-1-1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 Thanks for that :D In PvZ if you FFE, then try out 4-5 gate zealot timing push like this one. Basically anything that punishes the Zerg for trying to take a third, and makes them produce army units instead of drones. PvT and PvP I got nothing for. Also, last question about the 1-1-1 which I didn't find in the guide. Before the Terran comes out w/ his army and Banshee harass is still viable, should I have cannons in mineral lines or just park my stalkers and wait it out? | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
What's the best way to play phoenix mirrors? Cannons? 2nd stargate? | ||
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AuraFire
United States21 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On July 20 2012 23:53 Daimai wrote: If youre a protoss playing vs a terran, what are you scouting for? Please be quite detailed too, not just "how many rax he has", but more like: "If I see x amount of barracks with these addons at this time, I expect x". I understand the PvZ matchup because its much simpler (if you see fast hive or fast 4th, you can assume no hard aggression). If you see 6 gas its probably mutaling aggression etc. But these "subtle" details elude me in the PvT matchup, I simply dont know what Im looking for and what things that I scout implicate. Also some timings of usual attacks would be helpful (hellion marine drop into 1-1-1, 2 rax, 3 rax etc). It depends on how you scout. Seeing a gas/no gas and counting his marines helps distinguish the difference between a marauder pressure opening, a factory opening (which is usually a 1/1/1), or just a plain gasless FE. Starting with seeing both his geysers after his rax goes down. If you do see a gas you can make a pretty reliable guess at his tech path with a follow up scout. The follow up scout will vary on your build. A factory opening will have no tech lab on the rax, and there will be multiple marines. A marauder opening will have only one marine. Sending your scout back at his wall might not be enough as he can just hide any additional marines/marauders. Depending on how you open, if you see a gas you can cboost a zealot/or stalker and send it straight into his main and force him to reveal units. If you see 3-4 marines it's almost always indicative of a factory. If you see just one marine, or even a marauder then it's self-explanatory that it's a marauder pressure opening. Concussive doesn't finish until 4:00~ on a fast tech lab, don't be afraid of losing any gateway unit you send to his front. If you get in and see no gas, it can then vary wildly from the most passive 1 rax fe to a hyper aggressive one base marine all-in. Theres no way to distinguish the difference at this point, so camping a few stalkers at his natural is the best way to be prepared in the event marines and SCV's suddenly roll out. If it's a two or three rax scv all-in and your 9 scout gets into his main fast enough, you can watch his SCV production and look for a hiccup when the 2nd rax is planted, which is generally hidden. In the case of a 3 rax SCV all-in, make a habit of counting SCV's, as it cuts off at 12 before orbital as opposed to 15 in a normal 1 rax fe. Can watch the CC animation too and notice there will be no SCV's producing for 30+ seconds until he makes his orbital. If your probe gets walled off before you can see his gas you're SOL in terms of trying to read into a factory based all-in or a 1 rax FE without hallucination/obs. Everything I listed above will also help you if you prefer not to open fast robo, but don't want to gamble an auto-loss to cloaked banshees. If you've determined he's making a factory, get a robo sooner etc... On July 21 2012 02:34 AuraFire wrote: In PvT, what are the gas timings for the Terran in a 1-1-1 and a marine tank/2-3 rax opening? I have met both in Gold and can't ever tell whether they go for a 1-1-1 or another earlier gas build. Check my post above. The gas should always be at 13, whether its a marauder opening, cloaked banshees, or a marine/tank/banshee all-in. Unless he opts to allow you to see him take his second geyser, the marine will always clear your probe before you see it. If he goes gas before rax then it's almost always indicative of a factory opening -- I'd assume (safely) it'd be cloaked banshees but you'll never know 100% without an observer to see. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On July 21 2012 02:34 AuraFire wrote: In PvT, what are the gas timings for the Terran in a 1-1-1 and a marine tank/2-3 rax opening? I have met both in Gold and can't ever tell whether they go for a 1-1-1 or another earlier gas build. You can't really make a firm determination because his marine will have killed your probe well before his 2nd gas goes down. The best options you have are to rescout around 5:40-5:50 to check his ramp for a bunker or marauders or just keep a probe at the watchtower and realize that if you don't see anything around 6:20 it has to have been factory based. | ||
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aLmosTeu
Germany101 Posts
i just have a little question, im recently having lots of trouble with multiple drops from Terran in PvT, what do you think about adding a Stargate pretty early on (if youre about to take your 3rd or so, not sure), to build like 3-5 phoenixes to deny any drop harass? also, these phoenixes could help harass + dealing abit with Vikings later on  Cheers | ||
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strobeLite
United States37 Posts
Here are some replays against the same guy: http://filesmelt.com/dl/PvT_early_MMM.zip Just as an postscript, when it looks like I was trying to feedback marines on Ohana I was trying to FF, just forgot my HT's and sentries were in the same control group. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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JaxxUK
20 Posts
On July 21 2012 08:07 strobeLite wrote: I'm a bronze protoss who's really starting to struggle with early pressure from Terran as I start getting matched against higher leagues, namely early MMM pushes. I usually open by building a zealot, then build sentries until I get warp up and start making stalkers. Meanwhile I get a robo bay w/ an obs and start an expo. I can't seem to figure out what to do, I've tried going fast charge/storm, charge/immortals, and just massing gateway units based on what my current resources are (ie. sentries with surplus gas, stalkers if they're both reasonable amounts, zealots if lodes a mins). I'm sure there are a lot of problems with a lot of stuff I'm doing. Here are some replays against the same guy: http://filesmelt.com/dl/PvT_early_MMM.zip Just as an postscript, when it looks like I was trying to feedback marines on Ohana I was trying to FF, just forgot my HT's and sentries were in the same control group. Hi dude, I watched your replays, there are many things I can point out which will hopefully help. First replay ( Condemned Ridge ) When facing Terrans you can afford to use 4 chrono boosts on your nexus, you didnt use any. You could of had far more workers !! ( More workers = More Minerals !! ) Your build isnt great, I recommend this build: MC 1 gate FE. Furthermore given the size of that map you can afford to fast expand in safety. You noticed he was on one base with your obs scout, so your priority would be to squeeze our as many units as possible !! His attack isnt exactly considered early pressure, which was at 11:30 minutes. A 2 rax which hits around 6 minutes is considered early pressure. However you held it, however try to land those forcefields to cut that army in half, it helps :D Furthermore did you notice your mineral went up to 1k at this point? So at this point you should whack down some extra gates or some form of tech. You held of the attack however you didnt retaliate even though you were ahead in economy. Thus letting him re build his army. ( Which is bad !! ) Bearing all of this in mind, when it came to the final battle your army should of been twice its size. Keep that probe production up too :D Second replay ( Ohana ) Much of what I said in my first section applies here. Once again at 12 minutes when he attacks your minerals begin to float. You have two, more or less, saturated bases you should have at least 6+ gates by then. Furthermore you didnt even warp in any units from 11:30 minutes on wards expect for 2 HT. This whole HT and Sentries in the same control group is a mistake I make too, happens all the time with me ! Just learn to tab so you can switch spells :D So in summary, spend those minerals !! Use your chrono boosts !! Upgradesssssss. I hoped this helped, you can PM me any other questions if you wish, I like to help lower league people as I was in there situation at one point. However Im only a high Platinum, but I still believe my advice is good enough to bronze/ silver players | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On July 21 2012 01:18 Hayang wrote: I'm a platinum player and I'd like to try doing some good all-ins, or at least some dependable timing attacks. As it is my play is very macro-focused and passive so I'd like to explore the options I have. I also would like to have some fun with a hyper-aggressive style. So could you suggest the one or two all-ins or timings you think are most powerful against each race? EDIT FOR SENTINEL ABOVE ME: Your situation sounds about normal if you're scouting with an observer, but you should probably know earlier that he hasn't expanded and is going to all-in you. You basically macro for a little bit and then churn out a zealot-sentry-immortal (chrono) army from 4-5 gate robo with only as many stalkers as necessary to deal with banshees. If you scout a 2-starport push or you know he has more than 3 banshees, put down about 4-5 cannons at your front. I find that ~3 cannons are usually helpful for stopping lower league pushes as it makes them hesitate which is great for you. focus immortals on tanks, and forcefield the army and put up guardian shield. most 111s at lower leagues suck and you will roll them. Q-tip has a good guide for defending the 1-1-1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 Pvz: 7 gates blink +2 all in. If you have good FF - Immortal-sentry push with warpprism PvT: 2 collosus + range rush or Immortal Bust (2 immortal) or Parting double nexus 8 gates (Has really good transition but lot of terran die to it) Hit at 9:00 (going out at 8:30 right before stim and medivacs) PvP: 4 gates...or 4 gates phoenix all in | ||
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strobeLite
United States37 Posts
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Goatnotsheep
Canada2 Posts
http://drop.sc/225802 | ||
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Suolis
Finland12 Posts
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
I go 1 gate expo into 3 gate robo. grab my forge and gasses next. (make 2 obs) then I get +1 armour and twilight then templar archives and 4 more gates (7 total) morph one archon for the 2 medivac push ( after feedback on medivac) then start +2 and grab 3rd after defending drops and storm then go to collosus Is this a good build, do I need to flip anything around | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On July 22 2012 01:32 Suolis wrote: Does anyone remember/have the build order of the expansion->gate build that Oz did against Violet in the first game on Antiga Shipyard? I'm trying to copy it, but I don't remember the exact bo and can't watch the game anymore. I believe it's the same build that Naniwa did vs DRG in GSL. Also Axslav has been doing it on his stream - you can check that out. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On July 22 2012 04:34 -MoOsE- wrote: I just want a little help with my pvt build I go 1 gate expo into 3 gate robo. grab my forge and gasses next. (make 2 obs) then I get +1 armour and twilight then templar archives and 4 more gates (7 total) morph one archon for the 2 medivac push ( after feedback on medivac) then start +2 and grab 3rd after defending drops and storm then go to collosus Is this a good build, do I need to flip anything around Sounds perfectly reasonable my go to build in pvt these days is very similar to that. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On July 22 2012 04:34 -MoOsE- wrote: I just want a little help with my pvt build I go 1 gate expo into 3 gate robo. grab my forge and gasses next. (make 2 obs) then I get +1 armour and twilight then templar archives and 4 more gates (7 total) morph one archon for the 2 medivac push ( after feedback on medivac) then start +2 and grab 3rd after defending drops and storm then go to collosus Is this a good build, do I need to flip anything around I do the exact same thing in all my pvts, though usually I grab 2nd forge right around when +1 armor is going to finish and just stay on zealots+archon+templar all game. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On July 21 2012 01:18 Hayang wrote: I'm a platinum player and I'd like to try doing some good all-ins, or at least some dependable timing attacks. As it is my play is very macro-focused and passive so I'd like to explore the options I have. I also would like to have some fun with a hyper-aggressive style. So could you suggest the one or two all-ins or timings you think are most powerful against each race? EDIT FOR SENTINEL ABOVE ME: Your situation sounds about normal if you're scouting with an observer, but you should probably know earlier that he hasn't expanded and is going to all-in you. You basically macro for a little bit and then churn out a zealot-sentry-immortal (chrono) army from 4-5 gate robo with only as many stalkers as necessary to deal with banshees. If you scout a 2-starport push or you know he has more than 3 banshees, put down about 4-5 cannons at your front. I find that ~3 cannons are usually helpful for stopping lower league pushes as it makes them hesitate which is great for you. focus immortals on tanks, and forcefield the army and put up guardian shield. most 111s at lower leagues suck and you will roll them. Q-tip has a good guide for defending the 1-1-1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 Pvz: Warp prism+blink attack. The build basically goes ~6:00 +1 attack, 6:15 3rd+4th gas, 7:00 twilight and 3 more gates, 7:30 robotics, 8:30 3 more gates up to 7 total: 9:30 move out. MC did it in his pvzs in code s this season, can't remember specific opponents though. PvT: Gate Robo Gate into 3 immortal push that hits at 9:45 is really good because people at plat probably won't play any differently vs gate robo gate compared to 1 gate fe. Off of 1 gate fe, the 3 colossus 7 gate push is really good. ChanmanV's pro corner had an episode on it with MaximusBlack and Axslav. PvP: 10 or 11 gate 3 warp gate aggression. | ||
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