EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 221
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On April 12 2012 08:15 See.Blue wrote: What are people's thoughts on Oz's PvT forge fast expand build from earlier? Just watched the vods...ladder-usable? Do you have a link to the VoDs? | ||
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Olidan
Denmark30 Posts
On April 12 2012 06:31 Avean wrote: I was wondering if anyone could help me find my weaknesses in this battle. I am a platinum protoss that are starting to face off against diamond players, and i see everyone is really outclassing me with macro. They have better resources which in turn results in better army. Replay here: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/18603 Against zerg i usually do a 2gate or 3gate into expand. If i see he is slow with his spawning pool i just go 2 gate into expand like here. I always go hallu after warp to get scout on what theyre doing. I see he is going roaches so i pump out immortals but i am shock to see he has his third saturated very early on. I see i could pressure him early on which i guess is my main fault here, cause his worker lead was just insane and his supply just skyrockets from 10-11 min on. While im on 75-80 supply this guy rockets to 140 supply. I am surprised when i attack to see he got hydras also, so bad by me for not scouting there. But could i done something else with my macro ? Or is the only solution to attack zerg early on to stop theyre greedy production ? End results were he had 83 freakin drones and i had only 41 ......... So one obvious thing, that you probably already know is that you lack workers. You simply "forget" or "cut" them but you have very few, and you spend almost no chrono on the probes. This leads you to have around half the ressources of your opponent. This ends up in a total lack of ressources that means your enemys army is bound to be bigger than yours and so it will be able to kill you with a bigger army size. Spending a chrono on your probes everynow and again can sometimes be crucial. Also you are behind on workers already from the early early moments where we usually see zerg be behind because they spend a lot of their worker producing capability to build buildings, overlords, units and so on. Some might argue that something is wrong with the build but I am a big believer in experimenting and trying other things than what the "pros" do. Get more workers. Just remember to hit "1" and press "e" everyone once in a while will work wonders. GL | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
How should I ID builds that the enemy is doing before the first obs is out? -So far, I do a poke around 7:00 and look at his army if possible, I can ID DT and Blink fairly well this way but I am lost as to how to ID robo / stargate. What are solid decisions after the opening (let me split this up)? 1. vs DT play? -I have tried to Expand after getting a colsi out (assuming my first obs is in time to prevent serious damage and it usually is) but I almost always die to a chargelot archon timing and I am just lost as to what I should be doing here. 2. vs a player that expanded before you (2 gate expand)? -I tend to add a support bay after 1 obs / 1 immortal so I usually end up ahead in the colsi count vs this style and I try to use that to attack him if he takes a faster third than me, or, to defend a 3rd of my own if he hasn't expanded to a 3rd by the time I have range and 2-4 colsi. I have no idea if this is sound or not but it actually seems to work and I feel 'ok-ish' in this situation. 3. vs a 1 Base Col all in? -I try to get Immortals and stalkers out break his attack. I usually do so on 2 bases. It seems random if I win or lose this. Am I on the right track here? 4. vs a 1 Base Col expand? -This is FAIRLY similar to what I am doing except I go 3 gates, robo, expand, support bay so I try to just find small macro edges. If there is some trick or 'rule' I should know about playing vs this style please let me know but I feel it is a straight forward case of myself having a slight econ advantage and the enemy having a slight colsi count advantage and maybe faster range. 5. vs a 3 Gate Robo Expand (would love to know how the matchup 'should' play out, though I feel like I know this one the best so answer others first ^_^)? -I try to take a 7:00 Nexus, add Colsi, and as 2nd gas finishes in my natural, a 2nd robo. I then shoot for a 3 immortal / 3 colsi force that is heavy on stalkers (2 sentry and 3-6 zealots and as many stalkers as I can macro out) and do a timing poke/attack when I have that force while expanding and adding gates. From there it becomes a bit more reactive but I add upgrades and tech to either DT or HT while keeping track of his base counts. I have no idea when I should be attacking or defending beyond my first poke as I expand and my timing attack with 3 colsi. 6. vs Blink/Obs? -If he has alot of Stalkers when I poke at ~7:00 then I try to get a colsi out before expanding. I find if I can get 2-3 colsi and range without taking large damage I should win vs this style. I consider it the holy grail to snipe his obs. If I cant snipe his obs I have been trying out getting obs speed as a way to be able to keep my obs out as a spotter because he will not have access to this tech and it gives my obs safety. 7. vs Phoenix play? -Totally F'ing lost. When playing a longer macro game of Colsi Wars, what would you consider good triggers to be aggressive? -I have been trying to see when they invest into too much tech while being on a roughly equal to lesser colsi count but this seems to fail more often than not so I guess this is not a good trigger. I have also been trying out a 3 Colsi poke/attack at around 12-13 minutes that I had noticed Attero did in alot of his robo macro games and, while I like it, I tend to lose more than I should (probably just need to work on micro and know when to pull back.) Here is the replay I am basing the very bones of my build off of- http://drop.sc/158407 ANY help is very much appreciated. I hate being so lost as it makes it VERY hard to practice. Some replays of myself losing- Macro Robo vs Macro Robo I feel like I made a bad decision to keep attacking after I denied his 3rd base, had I backed off and tried to use my faster 3rd base to secure some kind of gas advantage (tech) this game would have been more favorable. I might be wrong and the game was already lost (I trully am not sure and thats bad in itself!). Macro Robo vs Phoenix Expand This game is what made me decide to seek some help from TL. I look at this replay and cant help but think I should have known the phoenix were coming but had no clue. I cancel my Nexus and I am fairly sure I was forced to (if I wasn't please tell me so!) and I never was able to convert that money into units in time to hold him off. I feel bad about this game because not only was it just 3 Gate Phoenix (not really all in) but he was expanding almost a minute before he decides to kill me. When I watch this replay I am left thinking that there is something just plain wrong with my pvp. Macro Robo vs DT Expand into Chargelot Archon I am lost here. I lost 8 probes in total after the DTs were killed but was only 2 probes behind him (I had expanded much faster) so I don't feel like my economy lost me this game as we had both invested into an expansion and were on even probe counts. I just MELT to his attack and I know I am doing SOMETHING wrong here but I have yet to figure out what. Help pls!!! ♥ I think those 3 games should at least outline the general look how I am developing this PvP style for myself but I can get more if wanted / needed to get better replies. These 3 games are from the past 48 hours. If you see glaring macro mistakes that are losing me games go ahead and say so, it will NOT hurt my feelings AT ALL to know that I just need to grind some elements with a focus on some area of macro as I know how to fix that. My gut and personal read on the matter is that I am losing to decision making elements and I just can't figure these problems out as of yet. I highly appreciate the toss community on TL. As a former Terran (masters KR/NA/EU) that suffered a wrist injury last year I have relied alot on the resources you guys have provided and I must say that the toss players have a huge leg up as far as being able to use TL as a resource. Its really awesome. -Vader edit- since I put some effort into this I made a [h] thread so this is slightly redundant, do not hesitate to reply here or there as I will be checking both!!! | ||
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lewisyoung
3 Posts
On April 11 2012 10:51 TNK wrote: For PVT I have been using 1 gate fast expand while for PVP I have been doing 3 stalker rush blink variant. However I dont really have a decent build for pvz so I need a new modern one. I recommand the 3zealots early offense,at that timing, zergs don't have more than 1queen and 8 zerglings. with 3 zealots,finding a good positon, you can force the zergs make more zerglings instead of drones,or even destroy their 2nd or 3rd base,at least cancel them.and by the mean time, you have expand your 2nd base and use the BG ,BF 3 sentries and cannons to defend it, and after zergs make enough drones and before they begin to make their zerglings,roachs,Spine Crawlers or whatever, you should have 40 probes,and 6~8 gateways, you can easily take their 2nd and 3rd base,. coz your sentries have sufficient energy, zergs wouldn't dare to confront you. use the field to block the entrance to their main base ,divide their units,the zergs won't hold for long.and bty , don't forget the updates in your BF. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
At this point in the game its near impossible to ID his tech until you get your observer his in base. That's one of the BIGGEST issues with PvP. If you are going robo, try to maintain map control using the towers and you must wait to get your observer to get inside his base. If he tries to get map control using a big chunk of his army, you should be able to see his unit composition and it should give you a pretty good idea what tech he has gone. If you are able to maintain the towers, you may be able to see the phoenixes if he has gone stargate. However, if i have been able to rule out fast DT play, i like to chrono my first observer and then make an immortal(no chrono) and as the observer gets in his base, i can cancel the immortal if i see phoenix play or some one base chargelot timing or something. I really really dont recommend 3 gates THEN a robo, if you are trying to play some kind of safe macro build. If your going to get 3 gates first, i suggest you pressure and check out his unit composition to be sure he isnt doing any stupid shit. Then if you didnt just kill him straight up, tech into the appropriate tech based on what you have seen. If you see a ton of stalkers, robo is probably your best bet. What are solid decisions after the opening (let me split this up)? 1. vs DT play? as long as you have your observer out with your army, you just need to either build a tight wall at your natural's ramp or simcity your natural so that zealots have to go through a tiny choke to engage your army. 2. vs a player that expanded before you (2 gate expand)? you have a good idea, to use your tech advantage to be able to get a faster 3rd. On some maps a colossus timing of two bases will outright kill him, so just keep pressuring him while you have the colossus advantage and take a way faster third. 3. vs a 1 Base Col all in? This is a bit of a tricky situation depending how fast you can scout this all in. Lets say you have expanded, but have not made any more probes that him. And you have a later robo than him. You will be in a very dangerous situation should you try to match his colossus count. If he outright does a two colossus timing with no range, you will most likely die unless you somehow manage to completely outmicro him. However, in most cases you should be able to get a warp prism with speed and two immortals faster than him getting two colossus. If he is trying to quick one base all in, he will have almost no anti air. If he somehow has a ton of stalkers, his push has been delayed by ALOT. Keep dropping his base to make him move back, but if he continues on with the all in, you need to bring your drop back(or if possible drop his army and take pot shots at his colossus as he is moving towards your base, he should have minimum anti air) and sac your natural and defend the top of your ramp. You can pick off his colossus with warp prism micro, because nothing will be able to kill the warp prism fast enough. 4. vs a 1 Base Col expand? basic macro, dont get pylon blocked, use all your chronos on upgrades, probes, colossus. Go up to double robo with a saturated natural and get those attack upgrades. 5. vs a 3 Gate Robo Expand (would love to know how the matchup 'should' play out, though I feel like I know this one the best so answer others first ^_^)? As long as you are able to keep up with his army supply, you will always have defenders advantage when expanding because your robo is much closer to you than his robo. 6. vs Blink/Obs? You will have to turtle a bit with immortals and use your observer with your army to try to snipe his observer. If he expands before you, dont panic, your army is way more cost effective so its ok to expand a bit later than him. You dont need colossus right away, I feel that 4 immortals sub 100 supply does way better than because you have way more gateway units to support them. Dont wait a whole 3-5 minutes to expand though...... 7. vs Phoenix play? Do whatever in your power to not make ANY immortals/colossus for the time being when you first scout phoenix play. You need to tech to blink but do NOT overmake stalkers. You still need plenty zealot sentry to protect your natural should he do a timing on your natural/main. You want to make enough stalkers to deal with his phoenix count. If his phoenix count keeps going up then keep making stalkers. Phoenix play tends to lead right into robo and they will pump a ton of immortals to combat your stalkers. If he expands before you, do not panic, once again you will most likely have a better army in the long run so dont worry if your expansion is a little behind. However, if he expanded with just phoenixes, no other tech, a blink timing off of one base can do some serious damage. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
Yeah here: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67119/?set=11&lang= But you'll need a ticket. Spoiler alert he bodies Polt with it. Cool build. | ||
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Kovaz
Canada233 Posts
Generally I'm sitting on 2base 3gate robo with 2 gas geysers. 2Port Banshee? I generally react by throwing down a stargate, but I almost feel like this is too late. The last time this happened I chronoboosted out 1 phoenix by the time the push came with marines hellions, and about 6-7 banshees, and it didn't feel sufficient. I eventually cleaned up the banshees but not before I lost almost all my probes and the second round of marines cleaned me up. 3-1-1? I think I have to respond with colossi, but I'm always scared It'll come out too late and I'll be down 500/400 for my army when the push comes | ||
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Vladix
Netherlands227 Posts
Most scout too early to even try nexus first on a big map. And all i face is 111 or an attack before they even get there expo. Is 1 gate expo still the way to go or are terrans adepting because everyone does it ? | ||
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Vladix
Netherlands227 Posts
On April 12 2012 08:15 See.Blue wrote: What are people's thoughts on Oz's PvT forge fast expand build from earlier? Just watched the vods...ladder-usable? Sage is also doing it on his stream atm. Looks like a nice build to try out ! | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
Well I came here because I need help against your race, and who knows better than a protoss on how to scout a protoss? Today I was all-ined. I must admit that I do not fear a macro game against protoss, I fear more their all-ins, because they can throw at you so many  Anyway I opened 1 rax fe into three rax. Not much to be said, I just needed one more bunker and I would have been fine. Am I wrong? The problem anyway is another I scouted that he had only thee gates and two gas.. Now question: Protoss can throw you a lot of variations for their allin , and this time it was immortals. But how do I know it? It seems to me that I must play in the dark. For example, it could have been dt expand, warp prism 4 gate robo, void ray all in, blink allin, how do I identify what is protoss throwing at me? Do I just blindly counter everything? But blindly countering everything seems to be impossible. For example, while you can beat three gate rays with pure marine, you cannot beat blink stalkers unless you got marauders with concussive shells On this game I took two gas but didn't use them on this game, because I didn't know what was going on. I felt weird, because actually I don't know how to scout a protoss correctly (or at least I was able to when I was on diamond league, because people are not so creative... I get people getting two gas but not using one, people making nexus and then destroying it to 4 gate all-in, and so on...) Thanks for help http://drop.sc/158492 | ||
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Animzor
Sweden2154 Posts
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LeeDawg
United States1306 Posts
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Helikptrfisk
Sweden35 Posts
On April 11 2012 10:51 TNK wrote: For PVT I have been using 1 gate fast expand while for PVP I have been doing 3 stalker rush blink variant. However I dont really have a decent build for pvz so I need a new modern one. vs Zerg I would recommend doing MVP.Genius pvz-style. Basically going air into 3 base. Then from there do a 3-5 collosus pre-brood lords timing. Have a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708 But dont add all those gates and instead take your fourth + go for mothership. Also day9 talking about the style: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-436-p1-pvz-3-base-and-long-term-play-6056377 I would recommend watching genius DRG final game 1 + 5. GLHF | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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Olidan
Denmark30 Posts
On April 13 2012 04:16 Animzor wrote: I'm having such a hard time getting into Diamond, I've been Platinum for 6 seasons and I feel like I've made a lot of progress. I usually get to rank 1 in Platinum, then I keep getting matched up against other high rank plat players and diamond players... eventually I start losing like crazy, like 10 games in a row until I'm rank 20 or something, this makes me depressed as hell and I've quit playing a few times because of it. What I want to know is: Is there something fundamentally different about plat and diamond that I need to start practicing? because I have no idea what the hell I am supposed to do to make progress. Let us see a replay where you feel like you own your opponent hard because you played so awesomely. That way we can spot if anything is wrong. | ||
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Olidan
Denmark30 Posts
On April 13 2012 05:11 9-BiT wrote: Gold Protoss here. Every game that I have tried to go colossi I lose. I exclusively go chargelot archon HT. my Terran win percentage is around 90% and I'm uneasy. I see colossi as the typical play in pvt, but they just get shot down by Vikings and my army is defenseless. Is the secret a tech switch to Templar? Is it bad that I'm only playing one style? Well that depends. If you have played for more than a year 10 games a day  you should know more than one build. It all come downs to if you want become a better player overall. Knowing 1 build (for each matchup) Extreeemly well is often times better than knowing 10 builds. Col is the "typical" unit but but but, did you happen to catch the GSTL finals at IPL 4? Where I believe it was Parting who used tons of HT storms chargelots and archons to nearly kill MKP until there was that unfortunate Internet "bug". http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/314284087 Browse through this vod to see it. Go to about 2 hours 10minutes to find it. Also I have encountered Terrans that just blindly build Vikings without having spotted your col and because of this if you choose to go for a col you should loose 100% of the time so an epic tech switch to something your opponent is not prepared for when he is overpreparing for something you are "supposed" to do then you should have a much easier time grapping the win in the end. | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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StevieWonder333
55 Posts
On April 13 2012 08:03 Sergio1992 wrote: what kind of cheese is effective against terran? on a two person map if they don't make a depot at their ramp then you can sneak in a probe for a double proxy gateway. I remember hearing of a proxy stalker rush, haven't used it though. you could also try an early probe harass with like 2 pulled probes. I've never seen a pro do it but it's really fun to get kills with probes lol | ||
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