EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 165
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habermas
United Kingdom304 Posts
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
On January 19 2012 04:41 habermas wrote: I have a general PvT question. Assuming a standard game with me and terran being on 2 bases are there any premises which would tell me if I should go for double forge, zealot/archon, fast colossus or fast HT before taking a 3rd? Or is it simply a matter of preference? It is largely a preference thing, however certain maps make one better than the other. I tend to favor double forge and zealot heavy compositions in general, as it is easier to deflect multiple drops. Early colo builds can be good for maps like shakuras, where your main and nat are pretty close together and you have a smallish ramp that is easy to hold on two base. If you go fast colo, you need to plan to use them before they get a decent viking count, or your fast tech will be wasted and possibly putting you at a disadvantage. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26616 Posts
PvZ is more dependent on hitting specific pressure timings and having your upgrades sync up well with whatever pressure you're trying to exert. Good examples include the 4 gate +1 zealot pressure variants off a FFE, I've seen players actually start their +1 before they start warpgate research to get a really fast +1 as it is a super-effective upgrade against Zerglings. Other examples include big gateway allins, the majority of 6/7 gate zealot/sentry/stalker allins will have +1 attack, the MC-style blink allins can often hit with the +2 attack that is unlocked early with the twilight council I saw an interesting Grubby build vs Ret in which he went dual forge into a risky fast third, but that seems very much a kind of unorthodox build that you can pull out in a series, but maybe not as a standard. The problem with the mass upgrade style vs Zerg is that unlike vs Terran you cannot mineral dump in a large proportion of Zealots, you need the gas units like sentries and stalkers to be competitive vs most compositions, and in my experience taking the third and the extra gases it entails is harder to judge than in PvT. The combination of requiring more gas units, the requirement of getting higher tech, and the timing windows getting fast upgrades off two forges means it just isn't that good in that matchup. CecilSunkure in I think it's 'CvZ' thread if I recall advocates sometimes getting a second forge when doing his build, but only once a third base has been secured. A second forge can also be extremely useful vs muta styles, as you really need to get +armour, their splash attack scales down a lot when you keep up on that front. Hope that helped, and if any of it is wrong that it gets corrected by a player more talented than me. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26616 Posts
On January 19 2012 04:35 KingLumps wrote: I need some help in the PvT MU. I am a high/mid diamond player and my main problem is early game. I would really like a new BO one that is safe but still manages to get a expo at a decent time. As soon as I get to midgame I feel 100 times more comfortable. What tends to happen is I either try to take an expo early and get hit by an early mm push which puts me far behind, or I play too safe and take my expo far too late. Can someone give me a good BO and tell me my main goals for the BO. thanks! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136 I am starting to rely on this as a crutch for the Help thread, but it's a great build and the thread supporting this is one of the best opening guides TL has to offer. You can get the expand down even faster if you scout a gasless expand as well, so it's adaptable and can pretty much keep you close economically to all but fast 3rd CC eco-cheese. Then I transition into this style. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549 It's a build that requires nailing it on time, having good map awareness (i.e stalkers to snipe drops), actually utilises chronoboost to somewhat approaching its potential, and encourages your mechanics to improve based on this. It's a build that can require good control to hold aggressive pushes. Dual forge builds are also just extremely good all-round builds. Basically TLDR these builds have the 'holy trinity' of things I personally look for. 1. Stable vs almost all aggression. 2. Decently fast expansion that lends itself to a macro game. 3. Still requires good execution and timing throughout the game and good reads as well as correct responses. In short, there's a particular 'flow' to Creator's style that I like, and to play the build well will improve your mechanics as well as be a test of your adaptability. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On January 19 2012 01:55 Quochobao wrote: A while back there was a thread on PvT mech -- the correct answer is not to change your composition, but to change your approach. If you see him massing tank, expand asap! then crush him with better econ. Almost any common sensical composition is fine (chargelot, colossi, immortal, ht, etc. any combination of these.) Thank you both for your helpful advice  | ||
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Chris1097
United States35 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On January 19 2012 08:37 Chris1097 wrote: At about what time should a 4 Gate +1 Zealot Void Ray be ready vs Zerg? 1 void and 7 zealots at 8:10 if you really want to kill the 3rd base. If you use a build that hits later(see EGJYP's replays from HSC4), then you can transition out more easily but then you'll have to attack 2 spots at once if you want to do damage. | ||
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Automata
393 Posts
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
On January 19 2012 10:09 Automata wrote: How safe/standard is a 3stalker rush in PvP? Specifically talking about CecilSunkure's variation here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192658 3 stalker rush into 4 gate is optimal for tal'darim, for maps with ramp if you try to 3stalker rush and fallow it up with anything but 4 gate you'll lose to 4 gate unless you target the probe far away from your base, but if you don't get lucky your sentry is too dlayed and you auto lose. So just don't do it vs 4 gate if you're not 4 gating yourself, otherwise it's fine. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On January 19 2012 10:09 Automata wrote: How safe/standard is a 3stalker rush in PvP? Specifically talking about CecilSunkure's variation here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192658 cb on the 2nd and 3rd stalker should keep you safe from fast 3 gate builds. most variations will keep you safe from 4 gate builds so long as you're active with them. the only downside to the build is a 2nd wg you might not necessarily use, but it's always there for safety. | ||
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Automata
393 Posts
On January 19 2012 10:22 Alejandrisha wrote: cb on the 2nd and 3rd stalker should keep you safe from fast 3 gate builds. most variations will keep you safe from 4 gate builds so long as you're active with them. the only downside to the build is a 2nd wg you might not necessarily use, but it's always there for safety. What would be a standard/safe PvP build to learn? | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On January 19 2012 08:44 iamke55 wrote: 1 void and 7 zealots at 8:10 if you really want to kill the 3rd base. If you use a build that hits later(see EGJYP's replays from HSC4), then you can transition out more easily but then you'll have to attack 2 spots at once if you want to do damage. Could you outline the BO for that? | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
I don't remember any supply numbers but you should start the stargate at 6:15 and 3 additional gates at 6:45 for the really aggressive version. I think JYP's build is just constant probes while adding a stargate and 3 gates whenever you have the money. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26616 Posts
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dama
19 Posts
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On January 19 2012 11:37 dama wrote: Does anyone have a good build order for a PvZ 1/2 gate stargate expand? What is a good number of void rays and phoenixs to make? I may be able to hlep you here, i have been doing a 1gate stargate a lot. Of late i have decided against using it as players shut it down easily. however, the players that made me not want to do the build anymore are players like Slush vibe and moonglade, so if youre not at that high of a level the build will work fine. I make only 1 void ray, and use it to pick off ovies, gain map control, and delay the third. Im not going to tell you what pop to build what on, but basically get your 2nd gas right before cyber, get a zealot, then you should have around 200 gas, the more the better, 150 for star and 50 for wg, then get a sentry, and if youve done it right you should have 150 for the void. from there either 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand, whatever you are more comfortable with/think you can get away with. IMPORTANT: Learn where people put there ovies. the stargate is a large investment, and you need to gain map control with it. if he has ovies around and what not he is in control. clear towers if you can, and if youre lucky you may get 2-3 ovies, but dont expect to kill a queen without building phnx. get to the third asap to deny it. if he creep spreads and adds queens he can take it, but you can delay it considerably. From here, play the game as usual. you can 6 gate off it, go into col, take a third, get blink and immorttals, anything. you should also have a good sentry count. Phnx vs No phnx. With phnx, you may get a queen or two, and force more spores. 3 is about optimal, anymore is wasteful and you arent going to do more dmg. Thats 300 extra gas, basically 3 less sentries. IMO its not worth it. i would rather have the extra sentries and faster gates. also it will delay your robo as you need to get extra units as well as phnx, and so unless you skip on ground units your robo will be delayed. Also when he sees the void, he has NO idea if you are making more voids/phnx, so he will build spores and extra queens anyway. Use this to your advantage and dont spend money on the phnx. This is just my opinion on phnx, you can go them if it works for you of course. You can do some very powerful 2 base timings off this, especially if you manage to 1gate expo. If you do, i would suggest getting a second void if he hasnt gone hydra or muta and is relying on queens to kill the voids. It can get VERY micro intesnive keeping voids away from spores/queens but still attacking while controlling your stalker/sentry army and using FF. all in all a fun opening, gl hf slaying zergs ! | ||
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imEnex
Canada500 Posts
 2 Gateway Pressure into Expansion against PvT? In my opinion, my problems on PvT is pretty bad until I found this build, how could you compare this to the MC 1 gate FE? | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 19 2012 12:16 imEnex wrote: What do you think of this build 2 Gateway Pressure into Expansion against PvT? In my opinion, my problems on PvT is pretty bad until I found this build, how could you compare this to the MC 1 gate FE?Isn't that the Naniwa build? As a Gold scrub I use that as my opener; I'm not confident in my abilities with the 1 Gate FE and I think the 2 Gate keeps me safe from most early Terran attacks. I don't always attack though with the build (so perhaps I am doing it wrong) but rather use it, first, defensively. I go Zealot, Stalker, Stalker, Sentry with 4 chrono on WG and 1 chrono on first Stalker. I poke up with my scouting probe and then with my initial Zealot/Stalker if I think I can do some real pressure and then follow up with warp-ins if I think real damage is a possibility (while securing my expand). If I see a lot of units, I just pull back and add gates/robo while securing my expand. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
Either 3-gate and put on real pressure, or just 1 gate FE. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:42 mizU wrote: 2 gate is bad economically if they are 1 rax CCing. Either 3-gate and put on real pressure, or just 1 gate FE. Yeah, I've lost to a couple of 1 rax FE but also won against a few (although those were gasless). Maybe the Terran execution was poor? I don't know enough about Terran play to know if they were well executed builds or not; I just hit with warp as bunkers were going down and tore up marines and scvs for the win. Having 2 gates at the time helped to warp in more units at their natural. That said, I 2 Gate because, at least in my experience, there is a lot of 2-3 rax play in the lower leagues and it feels safer. Technically, it might not be better than a 1 Gate or 3 Gate, but psychologically it sure does seem better. Edit/ Everything I've read, however, indicates that the 1 Gate FE is the optimum opening. It's more a matter of confidence, I think. I'm just not comfortable using it and the 3 Gate seems like overkill and delays the expo too long. | ||
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