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On January 18 2012 08:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 06:35 RexDeusum wrote:
Upgrade timings
Usually around the 10:00 mark I will throw up two forges if I don't need to do anything urgent like building another tech building or something like making a defend. But I feel like upgrades are not something as vague and subject to change as something like an expansion is.
Is there a more specific indicator/rule to follow when dealing with upgrades? I know there are some build-specific ones, but more in general I need to know what to do. Generally it depends on your approach. If you are playing defensively and getting heavy gate support, the quicker you can get upgrades the better. If you're going for old-school early collosus builds you generally start getting your upgrades behind the collosus infrastructure, i.e once your robo bay is done and if when have sufficient funds to do keep up collosus production and upgrades, you do this. At least as far as I have managed in my play and what I have observed from much better players than I. Third rule-of-thumb is if you see your opponent going for an upgrade build, especially dual engi bay you have to respond with upgrades of your own in turn. In addition their pursuit of upgrades delays potential death pushes so you can be greedier with your third base.
Many thanks
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On January 18 2012 08:57 sYnKaotyk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 05:19 Sentient wrote:Hi again. I just lost to what I'm sure is a terrible Terran strategy, so I'd like to know the appropriate response for future reference. Though it embarasses me to show this, here is the replay: http://drop.sc/94189Map was Arid Plateau. What the Terran did: 11/12 2-rax Build 4 marines Pull 10 SCVs (leaving behind 3 just when his orbital finishes) Keep sending marines. He left his base just as my cybernetics core finished and got to my ramp at 4:30. At this point my warp gate was only at 60/160 (I spent a chronoboost on it, perhaps this was my mistake because there was no way warp gate would finish in time). I scouted the two barracks right away and assumed it was some kind of marine all in. I built a zealot and then a sentry for forcefield, and a second gate. The second gateway was only at 45/65 when he got to my ramp. I tried to build a second sentry but it wasn't in time to stop him from coming up the ramp. So I made a bunch of mistakes clearly. I've never seen this before so I wasn't sure what to do. If I could have done it differently: 1. Not lose my zealot. (My micro sucks.) 2. Skip the second assimilator and get the second gateway sooner. (I didn't realize his attack was coming so soon.) 3. Chronoboost the stalker or sentry instead of wasting one on the warp gate. (The game was going to be decided before warp gates finished.) Best case scenario I would have had a zealot, sentry, and stalker with a second stalker almost finished. This is against 4 marines, 10 SCVs, with a constant stream of reinforcing marines. It seems like a no-brainer win for me as long as I pull the right amount of probes. But once Terran starts trying to build bunkers, I'm not so sure, and if he finishes a bunker then I'm screwed. I asked him at the end how to stop it. He said cannons, which I think is stupid because as soon as he scouts it and doesn't all-in, I'm behind for the rest of the game. What really bothers me though is this. I scouted the 11/12 and knew a marine all in was coming, but I didn't know when or if he'd pull SCVs. If it was a later push then I'd really want a second gas for the extra sentries and even guardian shield. For this early push I'd probably only want one. I can't know which he's going to do, and by the time he moves out, it's too late to respond. Is there a happy medium that can comfortably hold off both types of pushes? Hey there, can you provide a replay? :D If he brings along 10 scvs that early in the game, feel free to pull a few probes too, since if he hasn't been mining as much as you, then he probably doesn't have many scvs, so you can pull like 10-12 and be fine. Try to get a surround as they come up the ramp  chronoboost out units asap, and if your fighting units die, pull them back so buildings can tank some of the damage that the rines and scvs do. Stalkers if microed at an adequate level can take out around 3 marines in my experience, so getting out a stalker instead of a sentry to block might have been better in this case. zealots bash the scvs and probes help take some damage and stalkers take out the rines in the back. Hope i helped :D
The replay was a little buried at the top of the post: http://drop.sc/94189
I think your point about trapping him at the ramp is the key, but I don't know how many probes I'd lose to marines before I can DPS down his stuff.
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On January 17 2012 06:21 Sentient wrote:
What is the general consensus for PvZ openings on Tal'Darim Alter?
Normally I dislike the forge fast expand. I'm not comfortable telling the Zerg he's free to take an early third and drone to his heart's content. I prefer 1 or 3-gate expand (depending on how many lings I see and whether they get early speed). With the right pressure I can force a lot of zerglings or roaches and get my third up only slightly after the Zerg. Usually when the Zerg takes an greedy third I kill him outright with just 3-4 gateways.
The rocks on Tal'Darim are giving me a hard time though. My army sometimes gets caught out of position while killing the rocks, and the nexus is very vulnerable. It's much harder to pressure because of the very wide choke and my opponents now usually favor 4-5 spine crawlers as defense, so I don't even get to force that many units. And because the rocks are there, the Zerg can't take a really fast third anyway, negating the entire point of my approach.
Is there a better way? Should I just resign to FFE on this map?
Always FFE on this map. Zerg getting a "free third" is actually good for you, and opens up a multitude of non-allin timing attacks that will either give you a big worker lead, delay his tech, kill a hatchery, or some combination of the 3. Generally it will either allow you to take your own third relatively quickly (before the 11 minute mark, or give you the option of following up with a very powerful 2 base attack. I suggest you learn the 2 voidray 8 zealot 4 wg version and the 4 wg, no stargate, +1 weapons version. The stargate version is safer if you couldn't scout his third and are just guessing because it'll keep you safe against any sort of roach 2 base attack. The no stargate with +1 weapons version can hit a full 15-30 seconds earlier, but it hinges on you scouting his third.
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Hey! New to the forums, so i hope i don't break any rules in my post!
But i've been practicing my mechanics and build order. but i've hit a brick wall. I don't think i'm very good, so i'm trying to improve. I mostly practice against the computer, as i don't really want to place in a low league, but i've managed to beat diamonds, and 1 master in custom games. All though, lately i've only lost all my games lol.
http://drop.sc/94404 Heres a replay of my latest pvp, against the insane computer. I don't know how to really stop this :/.
I've tried alot of different builds, i tried 3 gate robo with 3 stalkers, i tried 2 gate rushing him, i tried 3 gating, i tried 4 gating.
The computer just always seems to have WAY more stuff than me. Any help would be very appreciated. Thank you for your time.
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On January 18 2012 11:25 Sentient wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 08:57 sYnKaotyk wrote:On January 18 2012 05:19 Sentient wrote:Hi again. I just lost to what I'm sure is a terrible Terran strategy, so I'd like to know the appropriate response for future reference. Though it embarasses me to show this, here is the replay: http://drop.sc/94189Map was Arid Plateau. What the Terran did: 11/12 2-rax Build 4 marines Pull 10 SCVs (leaving behind 3 just when his orbital finishes) Keep sending marines. He left his base just as my cybernetics core finished and got to my ramp at 4:30. At this point my warp gate was only at 60/160 (I spent a chronoboost on it, perhaps this was my mistake because there was no way warp gate would finish in time). I scouted the two barracks right away and assumed it was some kind of marine all in. I built a zealot and then a sentry for forcefield, and a second gate. The second gateway was only at 45/65 when he got to my ramp. I tried to build a second sentry but it wasn't in time to stop him from coming up the ramp. So I made a bunch of mistakes clearly. I've never seen this before so I wasn't sure what to do. If I could have done it differently: 1. Not lose my zealot. (My micro sucks.) 2. Skip the second assimilator and get the second gateway sooner. (I didn't realize his attack was coming so soon.) 3. Chronoboost the stalker or sentry instead of wasting one on the warp gate. (The game was going to be decided before warp gates finished.) Best case scenario I would have had a zealot, sentry, and stalker with a second stalker almost finished. This is against 4 marines, 10 SCVs, with a constant stream of reinforcing marines. It seems like a no-brainer win for me as long as I pull the right amount of probes. But once Terran starts trying to build bunkers, I'm not so sure, and if he finishes a bunker then I'm screwed. I asked him at the end how to stop it. He said cannons, which I think is stupid because as soon as he scouts it and doesn't all-in, I'm behind for the rest of the game. What really bothers me though is this. I scouted the 11/12 and knew a marine all in was coming, but I didn't know when or if he'd pull SCVs. If it was a later push then I'd really want a second gas for the extra sentries and even guardian shield. For this early push I'd probably only want one. I can't know which he's going to do, and by the time he moves out, it's too late to respond. Is there a happy medium that can comfortably hold off both types of pushes? Hey there, can you provide a replay? :D If he brings along 10 scvs that early in the game, feel free to pull a few probes too, since if he hasn't been mining as much as you, then he probably doesn't have many scvs, so you can pull like 10-12 and be fine. Try to get a surround as they come up the ramp chronoboost out units asap, and if your fighting units die, pull them back so buildings can tank some of the damage that the rines and scvs do. Stalkers if microed at an adequate level can take out around 3 marines in my experience, so getting out a stalker instead of a sentry to block might have been better in this case. zealots bash the scvs and probes help take some damage and stalkers take out the rines in the back. Hope i helped :D The replay was a little buried at the top of the post: http://drop.sc/94189I think your point about trapping him at the ramp is the key, but I don't know how many probes I'd lose to marines before I can DPS down his stuff.
I think you can just pull around 13-15 probes since you would have been producing probes and he would probably still be on like 5 scvs, which is pitiful. So just win the initial fight with your zeal/stalker or zeal/sentry (i prefer stalker, it is more micro-able against marines and scvs), and you're good to go for a free win basically.
On a side note, if you search darglein's micro trainer, the custom map has a section where you have a few stallkers and probes against rines and scvs. check it out for some stlkaer micro :D
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On January 18 2012 15:12 Soltzura wrote:Hey! New to the forums, so i hope i don't break any rules in my post! But i've been practicing my mechanics and build order. but i've hit a brick wall. I don't think i'm very good, so i'm trying to improve. I mostly practice against the computer, as i don't really want to place in a low league, but i've managed to beat diamonds, and 1 master in custom games. All though, lately i've only lost all my games lol. http://drop.sc/94404 Heres a replay of my latest pvp, against the insane computer. I don't know how to really stop this :/. I've tried alot of different builds, i tried 3 gate robo with 3 stalkers, i tried 2 gate rushing him, i tried 3 gating, i tried 4 gating. The computer just always seems to have WAY more stuff than me. Any help would be very appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Dude, IIRC, the Insane AI mines way faster than you - it sort of cheats (as the probes carry more resources on the Insane setting). I really don't see the point of trying to beat the insane AI when it has that sort of edge, although I guess it would be a cool achievement. IMO, just hit the ladder, do your placements and go from there. It's no shame to be in a low league - you'll go up soon enough with good practice (I started in Bronze, am now in Gold and finally feel like I am starting to learn the game). Ladder anxiety can be an issue for a lot of people, but remember "no gg, no skill"; say "glhf" at the start of a game and "gg" at the end, look for small improvements and you'll enjoy the game a lot more (at least that is what I found). You'll be alright. GLHF.
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Okay so I need help. So Ive been doing the +1 zealot + void ray attack on zerg 3rds as of late. Pretty much making this attack hit their 3rd as +1 finishes or a bit after. I usually have 2 voids and have pretty good success doing some good dmg and sometimes taking the 3rd. The only problem is that it seems 75% of the zergs just go straight muta right after that and I quit down the stargate path and want to transition into robo, mainly because I dont like going phoenix. Idk if I should just make 1 phoenix and see if he has a spire coming up or what because it seems he usually has mutas before my voids can get home after the attack and they pick them off on their way home and im stuck with a bunch of zealots on limited minerals to produce stalkers/cannons. Then im stuck on 2 base struggling to hold off the mutas and everything goes downhill. He is open to take the gold with little threat and it is GG from there on. Any advice on how to deal with the mutas? I dont like blindly going into phoenix but maybe that is what I have to do? Idk I'm just way frustrated and hate mutas.
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Why do we noobs have to come up with new strat to deal with PvZ, while I've been watching MC's stream and he still manages to win with stargate void ray pressure (that doesn't really kill anything) into 6 gate, third @ 11 min, and traditional robo colossi deathball?
It seems so inefficient and not pressuring the zerg enough by our modern standard, yet it seems to work so well in his hand... why? 
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On January 18 2012 16:25 Quochobao wrote:Why do we noobs have to come up with new strat to deal with PvZ, while I've been watching MC's stream and he still manages to win with stargate void ray pressure (that doesn't really kill anything) into 6 gate, third @ 11 min, and traditional robo colossi deathball? It seems so inefficient and not pressuring the zerg enough by our modern standard, yet it seems to work so well in his hand... why?
he is outclassing his opponents. His macro and control are managing to pull him through some bad situations. At least thats what it seems like.
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On January 18 2012 16:25 Trazati wrote:
Okay so I need help. So Ive been doing the +1 zealot + void ray attack on zerg 3rds as of late. Pretty much making this attack hit their 3rd as +1 finishes or a bit after. I usually have 2 voids and have pretty good success doing some good dmg and sometimes taking the 3rd. The only problem is that it seems 75% of the zergs just go straight muta right after that and I quit down the stargate path and want to transition into robo, mainly because I dont like going phoenix. Idk if I should just make 1 phoenix and see if he has a spire coming up or what because it seems he usually has mutas before my voids can get home after the attack and they pick them off on their way home and im stuck with a bunch of zealots on limited minerals to produce stalkers/cannons. Then im stuck on 2 base struggling to hold off the mutas and everything goes downhill. He is open to take the gold with little threat and it is GG from there on. Any advice on how to deal with the mutas? I dont like blindly going into phoenix but maybe that is what I have to do? Idk I'm just way frustrated and hate mutas.
Definitely find some way to scout. Something I want to play around with more but have seen work out really well is just eliminating stalkers from your midgame composition. Stalkers are so expensive that you can get pretty much everything else if you delay them. Phoenix plus zealots actually does amazingly well against mutaling if you can have a reasonable phoenix count (3-4) when he is getting his first round of mutas.
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In PvT,
How do you hold mass marines/siege tank theoretically? I say theoretically cos I dont have teh replay
I tried mass chargelots and Colossus (at 170/170) against like 20 siege tanks, the rest marines. Upgrades were equal.
If I get immortals, Marines take them down so fast, while siege tanks take down my zealots so quickly. I cant use sentry guardian shield because those tanks blast my sentries out of the water.
Whats the best army composition against this?
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On January 18 2012 19:18 bankai wrote:In PvT, How do you hold mass marines/siege tank theoretically? I say theoretically cos I dont have teh replay I tried mass chargelots and Colossus (at 170/170) against like 20 siege tanks, the rest marines. Upgrades were equal. If I get immortals, Marines take them down so fast, while siege tanks take down my zealots so quickly. I cant use sentry guardian shield because those tanks blast my sentries out of the water. Whats the best army composition against this?
You could use warp prism and drop zealots on top of sieged tanks so they will take friendly damage from other tanks shelling the zealots or use DTs to snipe tanks if he scans he would take some friendly tank shelling.
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On January 18 2012 16:25 Trazati wrote:
Okay so I need help. So Ive been doing the +1 zealot + void ray attack on zerg 3rds as of late. Pretty much making this attack hit their 3rd as +1 finishes or a bit after. I usually have 2 voids and have pretty good success doing some good dmg and sometimes taking the 3rd. The only problem is that it seems 75% of the zergs just go straight muta right after that and I quit down the stargate path and want to transition into robo, mainly because I dont like going phoenix. Idk if I should just make 1 phoenix and see if he has a spire coming up or what because it seems he usually has mutas before my voids can get home after the attack and they pick them off on their way home and im stuck with a bunch of zealots on limited minerals to produce stalkers/cannons. Then im stuck on 2 base struggling to hold off the mutas and everything goes downhill. He is open to take the gold with little threat and it is GG from there on. Any advice on how to deal with the mutas? I dont like blindly going into phoenix but maybe that is what I have to do? Idk I'm just way frustrated and hate mutas.
Hallucinated Phoenix are good all throughout the game for scouting.
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On January 18 2012 19:18 bankai wrote:In PvT, How do you hold mass marines/siege tank theoretically? I say theoretically cos I dont have teh replay I tried mass chargelots and Colossus (at 170/170) against like 20 siege tanks, the rest marines. Upgrades were equal. If I get immortals, Marines take them down so fast, while siege tanks take down my zealots so quickly. I cant use sentry guardian shield because those tanks blast my sentries out of the water. Whats the best army composition against this?
If he is massing tanks like that, then his army is rather immobile. Just don't directly engage into the tanks and you are fine. You can use a warp prism to drop Zealots on them, or also drop Immortals on them for maximum destruction, although, it is a bit more expensive. If you catch him unseiged, he is dead. If you can do a drop and force him to unsiege, you will want to engage. Your Collosi should destroy the marines rather easily. The key with something like this is patience. A Terran player with a lot of tanks wants you to engage on his terms. Only engage when the situation is favorable, or you absolutely have to.
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On January 19 2012 00:10 turamn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 19:18 bankai wrote:In PvT, How do you hold mass marines/siege tank theoretically? I say theoretically cos I dont have teh replay I tried mass chargelots and Colossus (at 170/170) against like 20 siege tanks, the rest marines. Upgrades were equal. If I get immortals, Marines take them down so fast, while siege tanks take down my zealots so quickly. I cant use sentry guardian shield because those tanks blast my sentries out of the water. Whats the best army composition against this? If he is massing tanks like that, then his army is rather immobile. Just don't directly engage into the tanks and you are fine. You can use a warp prism to drop Zealots on them, or also drop Immortals on them for maximum destruction, although, it is a bit more expensive. If you catch him unseiged, he is dead. If you can do a drop and force him to unsiege, you will want to engage. Your Collosi should destroy the marines rather easily. The key with something like this is patience. A Terran player with a lot of tanks wants you to engage on his terms. Only engage when the situation is favorable, or you absolutely have to.
A while back there was a thread on PvT mech -- the correct answer is not to change your composition, but to change your approach. If you see him massing tank, expand asap! then crush him with better econ. Almost any common sensical composition is fine (chargelot, colossi, immortal, ht, etc. any combination of these.)
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Tend to agree with Quochobao here. Related to that: raiding his economy can be useful to abuse the lack of tank mobility. I had a guy try to Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Tank me last night and I actually ended up dropping with chargelots (and the occassional HT/Archon) into his bases to kill tons of workers.
I didn't even macro particularly well (I was floating like...4000/2500 at one point when I wasn't maxed and my gold was running, ended up dropping six or eight extra warpgates just to clear my stockpile and max out). But I just built up an army whilst keeping his income down and keeping his marines/marauders stimming about all over the place reacting to drops and then crushing him when I had a stronger army.
Although I'm much more a fan of HTs and Archons lately rather than Colossi. A storm won't kill a tank, but it really hurts them and it totally wrecks marines. So you might want to look at giving that a try as well.
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[On January 18 2012 08:36 Wombat_NI wrote:
Third rule-of-thumb is if you see your opponent going for an upgrade build, especially dual engi bay you have to respond with upgrades of your own in turn. In addition their pursuit of upgrades delays potential death pushes so you can be greedier with your third base.
Does this hold true in PvZ too?
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Canada13407 Posts
On January 18 2012 23:54 tyronekiller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 16:25 Trazati wrote:
Okay so I need help. So Ive been doing the +1 zealot + void ray attack on zerg 3rds as of late. Pretty much making this attack hit their 3rd as +1 finishes or a bit after. I usually have 2 voids and have pretty good success doing some good dmg and sometimes taking the 3rd. The only problem is that it seems 75% of the zergs just go straight muta right after that and I quit down the stargate path and want to transition into robo, mainly because I dont like going phoenix. Idk if I should just make 1 phoenix and see if he has a spire coming up or what because it seems he usually has mutas before my voids can get home after the attack and they pick them off on their way home and im stuck with a bunch of zealots on limited minerals to produce stalkers/cannons. Then im stuck on 2 base struggling to hold off the mutas and everything goes downhill. He is open to take the gold with little threat and it is GG from there on. Any advice on how to deal with the mutas? I dont like blindly going into phoenix but maybe that is what I have to do? Idk I'm just way frustrated and hate mutas. Hallucinated Phoenix are good all throughout the game for scouting.
When you think about it, the transitions are already built into the zealot void ray attack to deal with most anything.
You have +1 attack done and +1 armour on the way. You will want to put down a twilight council to start your +2 attack so the option of blink is unlocked right there. If you can keep the 2 void rays alive you have successfully defended any mass roach all in so long as you make sentries to hold your ramp while the void rays do the damage.
You are supposed to follow up with a robo in the build as well. So you end up with forcing units and not drones to begin with, and you unlock all the tech paths. When you see he is on two base, if you poke and see no gas units then you can take a faster 3rd instead of using your 4 gates to make a zealot warp in. Using only the initial 4 zealots made from the gateway and 2 void rays to pressure.
I personally feel that following the 2 void rays should always be a pheonix for the primary purpose of scouting. The pheonix is fast so it can scout the whole zerg base at the very least you can check for lair - and how many gas are taken. The reason I get the pheonix over hallucination (at least initially) is that you have no sentries for when you push and see no third taken so you won't have energy for a hallucination EVEN if you did research hallucination early (which you couldn't because that ruins the zealot/void ray timing).
I like to pressure the front very early with my first 2 zealots and retreat and if i see no roaches or too many spines to be reasonable i skip my 2nd void ray and get 2 phoenix instead which are more efficient at killing queens alongside the one void ray than 2 voidrays alone.
If its 2 base muta, expand and make obs while teching blink and HT with storm. The more map vision you have the easier it is to deal with mutas. Keep in mind that mutas are very good at abusing you if your army is out of position, and since muta vs stalker is in the mutalisk favour as the Zerg's flock grows you can't split your stalkers up too much before storm is done. With many obs you can reactively move your stalkers into position as you see the mutas closing in and you can also be prepared to storm. Mutas kill HTs quickly so without map vision of the mutas it is really hard to get a storm off before your HT dies before you can get there and cast the spell. Knowing they are heading into the third means you can prepare yourself more easily and have your HT not die without using storm and damaging at least some of the mutalisks.
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Hello guys ,
how do you deal with a Helion opener in pvt ? I hit it like 3 times in a row on ladder , one followed it up with a 1-1-1 and the other 2 with a Marauder Helion Medivac push which just killed me.
Imo it is really hard to defend against hellions cause they are so fast and 3 or 4 of them one shot probes. My approach is to block my ramp with 3 stalkers and build like another 4 or 5 stalkers in my base and watch out for drops , than i am safe against the hellions but than T just expandend got ahead eco wise because i was a bit afraid of expanding myself my army combo later was stalker / immortal sentry but i just had to few unitsi guess
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I need some help in the PvT MU. I am a high/mid diamond player and my main problem is early game. I would really like a new BO one that is safe but still manages to get a expo at a decent time. As soon as I get to midgame I feel 100 times more comfortable. What tends to happen is I either try to take an expo early and get hit by an early mm push which puts me far behind, or I play too safe and take my expo far too late. Can someone give me a good BO and tell me my main goals for the BO. thanks!
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EPT
