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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On January 15 2012 05:44 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 05:38 awwnuts07 wrote:On January 15 2012 04:46 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 15 2012 02:29 awwnuts07 wrote:
Gold level PvP question:
Lately, both my opponents and I have been opening with safe robo builds which eventually lead to colossi wars. Is there any way to avoid this? Assuming we both expand at roughly the same time, do I have to mirror him? Is stargate or twilight tech viable at this point or is it too late to go that route? twilight tech is still viable after both players are on colossus. nothing kills archons very quickly, so if you can get a few archons to buffer shots and help speed up the clearing of his zealot buffer, you're doing yourself a favor. remember to cb out probes and add your 3rd and 4th gases quickly if you are both expanding. it's very typical in pvp for one player to have a slight probe lead when both of them transition to expand because one of them cut probes early and another did not. Thanks for the answer, Alej. One more for you. Is it possible to avoid colossi altogether? For instance, we both expand, he starts his colossi production while I go for Stargate or Templar tech. not really.. nothing else is supply efficient or cost efficient against toss as colo in mid-late game. it's true they need a buffer, but they're really unavoidable in a 'macro' game unless you get really far ahead and it doesn't matter where you engage or your opponent is doing something weird like double sg void. templar tech for charge/blink/archons is good in the open field, but if he gets his colossus in good spots and in good number, the front-end damage coupled with their range becomes extremely strong if you're not doing a similar amount of damage to his buffer. your units are going to melt faster than his on the front line
thx
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How many in-game seconds does it take for a newly warped-in high templar to have enough energy for storm?
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On January 17 2012 01:02 theBALLS wrote:
How many in-game seconds does it take for a newly warped-in high templar to have enough energy for storm?
Can't actually test it (at work atm) but going by the liquipedia numbers:
HT warps in with 50/200.
Storm costs 75 energy.
Therefore need to regenerate 25 energy.
Energy regenerates at a rate of 0.5625 per game second.
Therefore 25/0.5625 = 44.4 seconds.
Sources:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/High_Templar
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Energy
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On January 15 2012 02:36 KingDime wrote:
I have no idea whats happened. but it seems like i cannot hold off a 1/1/1 push anymore. Occasionally I'll defend but it tends to be when terran has made executional mistakes. I would say I win approximately 15-20% of games where I get 1/1/1/ed which is pretty damn low. I tend to go for a usual 1 gate fe into 2 more gates and a robo. I get about 32 probes, 10 on my natural, 16 on my main and 6 for my main gases.
My base line defense is a few immortals 4 stalkers, 2 sentries and zealot heavy with me getting more stalkers depending on how many banshees I scout or see. What i'm struggling with the most is with banshees, I tend to patrol 2 stalkers at my main and natural but no matter what I do it seems as if the banshees get a few kills allowing terran to finish me off when they push. So, it's not necessarily the actual push I have a question about, but how do you deal with banshees when they harass from one side and then group up 2 banshees (after the initial harass with 1) and then attack either the main or natural. The main problem I find is cloak, as it pretty much requires 3 observers just to get a scout off on the terran base. (I've lost many games where my first obs is placed in the middle and because of the obs being slow, I lose too many probes).
My thoughts so far are etc
1. First obs should not be in the middle of my main and nat but instead at the closer location to banshee harass while having the watchtower and chronoing a second obs for the far away banshee harass location. (example of this would be close air shattered temple, putting your first obs at the main and chronoing a second for the natural.)
2. only 4 stalkers is skimping a bit on the stalkers? maybe try and go 6 before going zealot heavy.
3. I tend to stay with 3 gates, maybe after my first immortal I should be on 4 gates and more gateway heavy?
4. Im adding a few control groups that are beside 1,2,3 on the keyboard so I have more for my army. I don't
typically use 8 or 9 on my keyboard anyhow, so a group where i have 1 immo 1 sentry 5 zealots for a flank when
the actual push comes.
5. Im too adament on defending my natural expansion where as if I backed up into my main the extra few warpins
might give me that unit count I need to defend.
Sadly, I prepare for all these things and the last 1/1/1 i play is an 8 marine drop with hellions at the other side.
I just feel lost in what im doing wrong against the 1/1/1.
1. Whatever your build is your observer should at the latest see the banshee on the way to your base and in time to go back to your base before the cloak finishes. All you need are 2 observers, each with 2 stalkers in each of mineral lines. You can have a probe outside his main to spot if he's moving out. Until then it's best to keep all your units in mineral lines.
3. Most pros tend to build 4-5 gates against 1/1/1.
5. Against any 1/1/1 you have to move out and start fighting in the middle of the map to delay the push. Whether you rely on sentries/immortals/zealots or stalkers/colossus you need to kite and/or cut-off parts of his army before he gets to your natural.
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Quick question for PvT:
In end game, like 20 mins+, the Terran is starting to dump his excess minerals in a lot of orbital commands, and suicides his scvs. At this point of the game, his army pop is growing while I need to keep my probes to maintain a similar economy. It gets to a point where it can become ridiculous, like the Terran has 6-8 OCs raining mules on his expos, and only like 30-40 scvs. This ensures that I can't trade efficiently with him no matter what army comp I have, and slowly lose the game.
Is there any way to handle that scenario ? Or is the answer "just kill him before this can happen" ?
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On January 17 2012 02:20 Nyast wrote:
Quick question for PvT:
In end game, like 20 mins+, the Terran is starting to dump his excess minerals in a lot of orbital commands, and suicides his scvs. At this point of the game, his army pop is growing while I need to keep my probes to maintain a similar economy. It gets to a point where it can become ridiculous, like the Terran has 6-8 OCs raining mules on his expos, and only like 30-40 scvs. This ensures that I can't trade efficiently with him no matter what army comp I have, and slowly lose the game.
Is there any way to handle that scenario ? Or is the answer "just kill him before this can happen" ?
Remax on archons, HTs and colossus when you lose your zealots.
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I'm really starting to struggle against early Terran marine/marauder all-ins (or at least what I would consider nearly all-in, as they only have like 13 SCVs when I'm on around 24-30 probes). It just seems like I can't get enough units out to hold off proxy 2 rax or a straight up 3 rax push. Even if I cut probes, go 2 gate robo or something that doesn't cost too much, I still can't hold it off.
I think the problem is with unit comp - I usually have two sentries out by the time the attack comes, but each can usually only forcefield twice, which on maps with massive space isn't enough to split their army. Stalkers get absolutely destroyed by marauders 1v1 (despite costing so much more...) and marines can kite zealots all day since the zealots don't have legs at that point. Forcefielding the ramp just allows the units up front to provide vision for the units behind, and the units I have get melted so fast.
I have a similar issue with slightly later marine/medivac/tank pushes by Terran. The tanks set up a contain, so I start producing immortals. One medivac drops in my mineral line (I couldn't spend the 300 mins for a forge and a cannon without seriously cutting myself short on units to defend the aggression I scout), I have to pull lots/stalkers back to deal with it as well as losing probes, then marines stim up my ramp and the tanks pummel my wall to death, and my immortals can't engage as the marines will slaughter them.
It seems to me that late game PvT is favouring the Toss, but early game PvT is favouring the Terran - and it becomes very difficult to hold off even without SCVs to tank damage. Usually when I manage to hold an early rush (marine/marauder sometimes with bunkers) I can just go kill them. If we both go for a macro game I can usually win that too.
So what should I be doing? What kind of unit comp (I tend to get 2 sentries, 4 zealots and then stalker/immortal depending on the enemy's comp)? Should I invest into defensive cannons?
Sorry for not having replays, these are general examples rather than specific ones. If it happens again I'll get the replay.
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- Deleted -
Answered better below. Although, I've started to send my scouting probe up first (I try to make sure it survives the initial scout and maybe plants a pylon near the Terran base) before sending my Zealot/Stalker up to poke. A couple of good hits with conc shell and you lose either a Zealot or Stalker early, I find. Sending your probe first is safer, IMO.
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On January 17 2012 02:31 Larkin wrote:
I'm really starting to struggle against early Terran marine/marauder all-ins (or at least what I would consider nearly all-in, as they only have like 13 SCVs when I'm on around 24-30 probes). It just seems like I can't get enough units out to hold off proxy 2 rax or a straight up 3 rax push. Even if I cut probes, go 2 gate robo or something that doesn't cost too much, I still can't hold it off.
I think the problem is with unit comp - I usually have two sentries out by the time the attack comes, but each can usually only forcefield twice, which on maps with massive space isn't enough to split their army. Stalkers get absolutely destroyed by marauders 1v1 (despite costing so much more...) and marines can kite zealots all day since the zealots don't have legs at that point. Forcefielding the ramp just allows the units up front to provide vision for the units behind, and the units I have get melted so fast.
I have a similar issue with slightly later marine/medivac/tank pushes by Terran. The tanks set up a contain, so I start producing immortals. One medivac drops in my mineral line (I couldn't spend the 300 mins for a forge and a cannon without seriously cutting myself short on units to defend the aggression I scout), I have to pull lots/stalkers back to deal with it as well as losing probes, then marines stim up my ramp and the tanks pummel my wall to death, and my immortals can't engage as the marines will slaughter them.
It seems to me that late game PvT is favouring the Toss, but early game PvT is favouring the Terran - and it becomes very difficult to hold off even without SCVs to tank damage. Usually when I manage to hold an early rush (marine/marauder sometimes with bunkers) I can just go kill them. If we both go for a macro game I can usually win that too.
So what should I be doing? What kind of unit comp (I tend to get 2 sentries, 4 zealots and then stalker/immortal depending on the enemy's comp)? Should I invest into defensive cannons?
Sorry for not having replays, these are general examples rather than specific ones. If it happens again I'll get the replay.
in situations like that dont be afraid to pull probes to fight, marauders only do 9 damage per shot to probes so they are perfect to tank marauder shots, try to surround the marauders with probes and then focus fire the marines with stalkers. Scout more. I prefer to get zealot, stalker, senty and be active with your fast units like stalkers. you can kite scvs and marines for evert with your stalkers so poking at terran ramp with your stalker is great idea, watch out concussive shells.
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On January 17 2012 02:20 Nyast wrote:
Quick question for PvT:
In end game, like 20 mins+, the Terran is starting to dump his excess minerals in a lot of orbital commands, and suicides his scvs. At this point of the game, his army pop is growing while I need to keep my probes to maintain a similar economy. It gets to a point where it can become ridiculous, like the Terran has 6-8 OCs raining mules on his expos, and only like 30-40 scvs. This ensures that I can't trade efficiently with him no matter what army comp I have, and slowly lose the game.
Is there any way to handle that scenario ? Or is the answer "just kill him before this can happen" ?
Basicly dont let that happen, late games favors protoss but, late late game favors Terran, you could use warp prism and just warp like 4 zealots to kill mules nad deny mining, even if mules escape from zealots they wasted lot of their time to running instead of mining wich is almost good as killing mules.
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Late-game PvZ, against heavy muta players on large maps (shak, taldarim, antiga): Should I leave supply free to deal with counterattacking mutas? Currently I just use 4-5 cannons to defend while my deathball is out, but mutas in decent numbers crush those. My next thing to try is leaving 1-2 HT at each base, but I'm only plat so my micro and multitasking is pretty horrific. It'd be much easier to warp in some stalkers to fight or stall, but I usually have a maxed deathball and can't.
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On January 17 2012 04:15 MangoPDK wrote:
Late-game PvZ, against heavy muta players on large maps (shak, taldarim, antiga): Should I leave supply free to deal with counterattacking mutas? Currently I just use 4-5 cannons to defend while my deathball is out, but mutas in decent numbers crush those. My next thing to try is leaving 1-2 HT at each base, but I'm only plat so my micro and multitasking is pretty horrific. It'd be much easier to warp in some stalkers to fight or stall, but I usually have a maxed deathball and can't.
Just practice using your HTs. The situation you're talking about, the Zerg is going to have a really big Muta ball, so the number of Stalkers you can warp in at once is really not going to be enough to deal with them.
It's not super hard to control your HTs in this situation. Just keep an eye on your mini map, and have a spot where you always keep your HTs (for example, my HTs are always near one or both geysers at each nexux) so that you don't have to go looking for them. Box, hit the Storm hotkey, click, done. HTs will pretty much always be the first unit in any group of units you select, so you don't even have to worry about boxing extra units if you're moving too fast.
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United States8477 Posts
On January 17 2012 04:15 MangoPDK wrote:
Late-game PvZ, against heavy muta players on large maps (shak, taldarim, antiga): Should I leave supply free to deal with counterattacking mutas? Currently I just use 4-5 cannons to defend while my deathball is out, but mutas in decent numbers crush those. My next thing to try is leaving 1-2 HT at each base, but I'm only plat so my micro and multitasking is pretty horrific. It'd be much easier to warp in some stalkers to fight or stall, but I usually have a maxed deathball and can't.
A few warpins isn't going to help versus 20+ muta while your entire deathball is out. Instead, put that 1-2 templar at each base and work on watching the minimap to storm mutas. Also, add more cannons to each base. It's not at all uncommon for me to go up to 7-8 cannons per base in the late game vs mass muta.
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On January 17 2012 03:34 Roynalf wrote:
in situations like that dont be afraid to pull probes to fight, marauders only do 9 damage per shot to probes so they are perfect to tank marauder shots, try to surround the marauders with probes and then focus fire the marines with stalkers. Scout more. I prefer to get zealot, stalker, senty and be active with your fast units like stalkers. you can kite scvs and marines for evert with your stalkers so poking at terran ramp with your stalker is great idea, watch out concussive shells.
Usually it's a marine/marauder ball of like 8 marines and 4 marauders, so the marines just stim and kill the probes in an instant, then even if I do hold it off I'm behind cause they can MULE while I have to rebuild units as well as probes.
Though I'll try to be more aggressive with my first stalker, maybe do a 3 stalker rush into robo or something. Usually I sit back and build up the deathball while harassing with chargelots once I get into midgame, because nearly every Terran I play throws down a bunker at the top of their ramp, making me think they're going to expand in the early game. Thanks.
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What is the best way to react to a stargate build if I have already started an early robo and am planning for an immortal -> collossus build?
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On January 17 2012 05:38 snively wrote:
What is the best way to react to a stargate build if I have already started an early robo and am planning for an immortal -> collossus build?
My experience is that you shouldn't do Robo builds without a TC for exactly the reason that they get killed so hard by Phoenix builds. You really want Blink to help deal with Phoenix, and you really don't want your resources concentrated in single units that can be lifted (Immortals) or focused down by Phoenix fire (Colossi).
Edit: I didn't actually answer your question. My understanding of PvP is very poor, so maybe a stronger player will come with a different response, but if you do find yourself in the situation of being on the way to a pure robo build when your opponent reveals Phoenix, I would think the best response would be to immediately drop a TC for Blink and a Forge for a couple cannons, get a couple Observers to keep tabs on the Phoenix flock, and try to survive the inevitable timing push and then expand when you get Blink.
Edit again: Ninjaed by Monk. Do what he says.
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United States8477 Posts
On January 17 2012 05:38 snively wrote:
What is the best way to react to a stargate build if I have already started an early robo and am planning for an immortal -> collossus build?
Cancel any immortals, cancel your robo bay, throw down a twilight for blink. Expand when you either see his expansion or you have a good number of zealot/stalker/sentry. Depends a lot on what you scout with your observer.
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What is the general consensus for PvZ openings on Tal'Darim Alter?
Normally I dislike the forge fast expand. I'm not comfortable telling the Zerg he's free to take an early third and drone to his heart's content. I prefer 1 or 3-gate expand (depending on how many lings I see and whether they get early speed). With the right pressure I can force a lot of zerglings or roaches and get my third up only slightly after the Zerg. Usually when the Zerg takes an greedy third I kill him outright with just 3-4 gateways.
The rocks on Tal'Darim are giving me a hard time though. My army sometimes gets caught out of position while killing the rocks, and the nexus is very vulnerable. It's much harder to pressure because of the very wide choke and my opponents now usually favor 4-5 spine crawlers as defense, so I don't even get to force that many units. And because the rocks are there, the Zerg can't take a really fast third anyway, negating the entire point of my approach.
Is there a better way? Should I just resign to FFE on this map?
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I really rcmnd watching combatex videos on youtube,
Very helpful protoss commentary
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EPT
