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[G] MC's defensive 3 gate in PvP

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-02 14:30:59
July 22 2011 05:56 GMT
#1
Hello, this is NrGmonk and today I will be teaching you a defensive 3 gate build. This is yet another viable defensive PvP build that hold a 4 gate. oGsMC, widely considered the world's best protoss as of the writing of this guide, uses it almost exclusively as his macro PvP build. Be warned though that this is a very advanced build and has a high difficulty of execution. After 15 games, my success rate was 33% while after 30 games it was only 75%. I was making both execution mistakes and not accounting for every little thing that could go wrong. Again, this build is not for a casual player, as the timings are razor thin and any one small mistake will cost you the game. However, with the help of this guide you should do better than I did, as not only will I teach you the build order, I will go through it and mention exactly what you should be paying attention to at each point in time.

When to do this build:
+ Show Spoiler +
This build is an all purpose build for when you think your opponent could be 4 gating you. Do not use it if he's mined too much gas or used too many chornoboosts on his probes.

Build order:
+ Show Spoiler +
9 pylon
*chronoboost probes
12 gate
*cb probes
14 gas, mine gas immediately after
15 plyon
16 cyber
17 or 18 zealot
21 stalker
21 warpgates
*cb x 4 on warpgates
cut probes at 24 supply or 20 probes
-----
Before this point, this is the normal protoss opening

24 or 25 pylon in back of base
24 or 25 gas, mine gas immediately after
24 or 25 probe
24 or 25 stalker
27 probe
28 gateway
28 gateway
resume probe production
30 sentry
*cb sentry at 5:13
32 pylon
34 sentry
36 stalker
38 stalker
-----

Notes:
-You can abandon this build midway at any time during it when you make a read that your opponent is not 4 gating. This can be your opponent not being aggressive
-If your opponent gas steals you, attack the gas and continue with the build.
-You can make a slight alteration of the build by either delaying or not delaying your 3rd plyon. Delaying your 3rd pylon sells more to your opponent that you're 4 gating while not delaying the 3rd pylon allows you to get 1 more probe out in the long run. Keep in mind that if your opponent's scouting probe leaves your base extremely early, you don't have to make this choice.

Important timings:
+ Show Spoiler +
For future references, these are the important timings of this build versus the standard 4 gate. These timings are also useful for someone trying to immitate the build.

4:20 Your first stalker comes out
5:00 Your second stalker comes out
5:30 Your first sentry comes out
5:40 Your second sentry starts warping in
5:45 Your second sentry warps in
5:45 First wave of your opponet's 4 stalkers warp in
5:55 Second and third gateways finish
6:05 Your 3rd and 4th stalker start warping in
6:10 Your 3rd and 4th stalker warp in
6:12 First wave of your opponent's 4 zealots warp in

Pylon build time: 25 seconds

Train of thought during this build:
+ Show Spoiler +
4:20-4:50
Chase the enemy scouting probe and scout the inital vicinity of your base for pylons.

4:50-5:10
Be careful during this moment as there is a timing where you only have 1 zealot and 1 stalker and your opponent can possibly have 1 zealot 1 stalker and a probe at your ramp to build proxy pylons. Take a stance slightly in front of your ramp and immidately target any probes that try to approach your ramp.

5:00-5:50
During this time frame you have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers, which gives you map control on your side of the map. At 5:45 your opponent's first wave of units warp in and it will take about 5-10 seconds to get to your base, at which point you lose map control. Use this map control to aggressively scout your side of the map for units and pylons. However, do not leave your ramp vulnerable to any enemy probes. A probe building a pylon at your ramp or in your base before 5:20 is usually gg as he will be able to warp his first wave of units in your base. Thus on some maps such as xelnaga caverns where there are multiple paths to your base, you have to play slightly more defensive whereas on a map like shattered temple or shakrus plataeu, you can have your units more forward. Your goal at this stage is to delay the proxy pylon at your ramp as much as possible. His first wave of zealots warp in at 6:12 at the earliest and pylons take 25 seconds to build. Thus, any one second the proxy pylon at the ramp is delayed past 5:47 means that the first warpin is delayed by that many seconds. However, if you cannot delay this proxy pylon, it's not the end of the world. Do not chase your opponent's units. Chasing them may let you get a free zealot, but you risk the chance of your army getting cut in half or your opponent throwing down proxy pylons at your ramp, both of which are not worth the zealot.

5:50-6:12
This is this part where we actually try to defend the 4 gate. The first part is keeping your marco up. As soon as you confirm a 4 gate, build a 4th gate, cut probes, and remember to build units as soon as you can and pylons as soon as you need them. You actually don't need th 4th gate, but it's a nice safety precaution. Plus, your booming economy should be able to support 4 gates. Next, initally position your army so that your stalkers can hit his proxy pylons and get free hits on any units that attempt to run up the ramp.

The next part is extremely important: Do not get trigger happy with force field. Many people spam forcefield on their ramp and die when they've made too many sentries and they've run out of forcefields. Between 5:50 and 6:12, your opponent will only have 6 stalkers and 1 zealot, nothing more, probably nothing less. If your opponent does not try to run up your ramp, do not forcefield the ramp. If he does, idealy you want to forcefield 2 units above your ramp and micro back so that the enemy stalkers on low ground can't hit you. Forcefielding 3 units in is a bit dangerous and forcefielding 4 units in will probably lose you the game. This is one of the difficulties in executing this build: perfect forcefields.

6:12-~6:30
Your opponent will try to warp in his first wave of zealots at 6:12 or when his proxy pylon at your ramp finishes, whichever one comes second. Forcefield the ramp as soon as you see any warpins or a unit try to run up your ramp. Alternatively, forcefield your ramp at 6:12 or when his proxy pylon at your ramp finishes. The logic behind this is that you either force him to warp above the forcefield and get bludgeoned by stalker fire or you force him to warp on low ground.

6:30 onwards
From this point, just keep forcefielding during warpins or if units try to run up the ramp. Keep making stalkers unless you see you won't have a forcefield coming up and in that case make a sentry. If executed correctly, this build should not have to build anymore than 3 sentries. If you feel safe, resume probe production and add a tech building. Blink is generally the best transition since you've made so many stalkers but robo can work as well if you're deathly affraid of dts.

Common mistakes:
+ Show Spoiler +
Overextending your first 3 units and losing them
Venturing too far from your ramp and letting proxy pylons get thrown down
Bad decision making on forcefields
Missed forced fields
Not morphing warpgates and warping in units in time
Not being aggressive enough with first 3 units
Bad army positioning during the 4 gate attack

Advantages and disadvantage over other defensive PvP builds:
+ Show Spoiler +
Currently the other popular defensive PvP builds include the following:
Defensive 4 gate
Quick 2nd gas into 3 stalker rush
IMYounghwa 3 stalker robo
Other 3 stalker rush builds
Geiko's defensive 3 gate
1 gas 2 gate robo opening

Advantanges:
Looks exactly like a 4 gate, so it will force a macro player to play more defensively if he wants to be safe.
Many more probes than other builds: can go up to 26 at 6:00
Does not include a walloff in the build.
Does not depend as much on denying a proxy pylon.
Gets a 2nd gas and a fairly fast one.
Does not care as much if your gas gets stolen.
Does not lock you into a specific tech tree, ie blink.

Disadvantages:
Requires 2 sentries whereas other builds do not. You may have to build that 2nd sentry if for some reason you're not 100% sure he's 4 gating.
Doesn't get as much gas as some other safe builds.
Very difficult build to pull off and not forgiving for mistakes.

Example replays and vods:
+ Show Spoiler +
Standard game vs standard 4 gate
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/9882
I don't execute 100% perfectly but I still held it off.

Defense vs 4 gate into long game
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/9883
You can see the transition into a long game

Starswar MC vs xiaoT Game 1-Loss
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)oGsMC_vs_(P)CCMxiaOt__sc2rep_com_20110621/10103
MC is too aggressive with his first 3 units and loses them and thus the game

Starswar MC vs xiaoT Game 2-Win
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)oGsMC_vs_(P)CCMxiaOt_metalopolis_sc2rep_com_20110621/10104
MC does this build vs a defensive 4 gate transitions to robo

Starswar MC vs xiaoT Game 3-Win
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)oGsMC_vs_(P)CCMxiaOt__sc2rep_com_20110621/10105
MC does this build vs a non 4 gate and transitions to dts

Starswar MC vs LoveCD Game 4-Win
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)WEGIGALovecd_vs_(P)oGsMC_metalopolis_sc2rep_com_20110623/10228
MC does this build vs a 4 gate but his opponent backs off and MC transitions to blink

Starswar MC vs LoveCD Game 5-Win
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)oGsMC_vs_(P)WEGIGALovecd__sc2rep_com_20110623/10229
MC does this build vs non 4 gate and transitions to dts

GSL MC vs Huk Game 1-Win
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65750
MC starts doing the build but abandons it when he makes the read that huk is not 4 gating.

GSL MC vs Hungun Game 4-Loss
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65774
MC does this build vs non 4 gate and transitions to robo

GSL MC vs Hungun Game 4-Loss
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65774
Hungun exploits a brilliant timing and manages to put a proxy pylon in MC's main. MC's mistakes were not being forward enough to target the incoming probe and not pulling probes to kill the pylon in his base.

FAQs:
+ Show Spoiler +
Does this build work on talderim altar?
No.

How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build?
This question is irrelavent as you scout adelscott's build way before commiting to this build.

I tried this build and it failed. What did I do wrong?
Post the replay and I'll tell you.

Comments and criticisms are welcome.
Grammar/spelling/formatting corrections are also welcome.
Also, if you liked this guide, be sure to check out my PvP Robo twilight guide.
NrGmonk.151
Moderator
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
July 22 2011 06:21 GMT
#2

Does this build work on talderim altar?
No.

How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build?
This question is irrelavent as you scout adelscott's build way before commiting to this build.


ROFL

Seriously it's the middle of the night here and I just burst out laughing from reading that. I spend too much time in these forums >.<

Oh, and this guide is pretty amazing. Not that it's a particularly awesome build or anything, but this is probably the best presentation of a guide I've seen yet. You clearly explain the build, how to properly think while executing this build, include important timings, and clearly explain WHY you want to use this build and compare it with other similar builds. Simply awesome. On top of that plenty of reps, both of yourself and pros. Good job again.
Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France1939 Posts
July 22 2011 06:23 GMT
#3
Wow, nice guide. I hadn't even noticed that MC was doing a defensive 3 gate build. I mut have only seen his 1 gate robo, or expand games recently.

The advantage of this build seems to be that you get relatively late units, which allow you to not stop probe production.
Same as with my build though, I disagree that this looks like a 4 wg because you take your gas before the second stalker is out.
I question the timings you put on your build. Standard 4 gate will have units warped in at approx. 5:43 at your ramp. If you use 4 cb on cybercore, your units should finish warping in 7 sec later than his (approx 5:50) because he has 5 CB on wg.
Great write up I will definitely try it out when I can. I'd love to see a replay vs a 4 gate with first 2 pylons at the ramp as well.

I wonder how many people in this thread are going to tell the creator of this build that the idea of delaying your tech, getting a sentry and a zealot is bad :D
geiko.813 (EU)
lazydino
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada331 Posts
July 22 2011 06:23 GMT
#4
Nice, I'll give it a try!
"I have this moron thing that I do, it's called thinking" - George Carlin
Complete
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1864 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 06:45:58
July 22 2011 06:31 GMT
#5
This is basically my standard build in PvP if I smell a chance of a 4 gate. I take 2nd gas before zealot though and don't put any guys in it till later because i hate dealing with gas steals.

I'd like to emphasize something from the author since it's probably the most important part (other than not messing up the timings of the build). A probe building a pylon at your ramp or in your base before 5:20 is usually gg

From my experience i only have 1z/1s when the probe comes to your ramp to make a proxy pylon. I might be wrong since your build will be a little faster with a later gas.

monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 06:40:56
July 22 2011 06:38 GMT
#6
On July 22 2011 15:21 Anihc wrote:
Show nested quote +

Does this build work on talderim altar?
No.

How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build?
This question is irrelavent as you scout adelscott's build way before commiting to this build.


ROFL

Seriously it's the middle of the night here and I just burst out laughing from reading that. I spend too much time in these forums >.<

I knew someone would get a a kick out of that.


On July 22 2011 15:23 Geiko wrote:
I disagree that this looks like a 4 wg because you take your gas before the second stalker is out.

Your opponent can't scout that you took a 2nd gas because your first stalker will have chased him out.

On July 22 2011 15:23 Geiko wrote:
I question the timings you put on your build. Standard 4 gate will have units warped in at approx. 5:43 at your ramp. If you use 4 cb on cybercore, your units should finish warping in 7 sec later than his (approx 5:50) because he has 5 CB on wg.

Your chornoboost on your first gateway allows the gateway to transform into a warpgate faster, thus speeding up the warpin time of your 2nd sentry.
Moderator
AirbladeOrange
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2573 Posts
July 22 2011 06:42 GMT
#7
Thanks a lot for this. I've been looking for a new PvP build because I hate all my builds.
Fiendish
Profile Joined April 2010
United States210 Posts
July 22 2011 07:19 GMT
#8
i will be learning this

you put 24/25 instead of 24/26
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
July 22 2011 07:20 GMT
#9
On July 22 2011 16:19 Fiendish wrote:
i will be learning this

you put 24/25 instead of 24/26


That's on purpose. It means you can either make that unit/building at 24 or 25 supply, depending on how you do the build.
Moderator
Fiendish
Profile Joined April 2010
United States210 Posts
July 22 2011 07:28 GMT
#10
oh i get it
CookieMaker
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada880 Posts
July 22 2011 07:28 GMT
#11
On July 22 2011 16:20 4kmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 16:19 Fiendish wrote:
i will be learning this

you put 24/25 instead of 24/26


That's on purpose. It means you can either make that unit/building at 24 or 25 supply, depending on how you do the build.



Ahh i was confused at that point as well, normally when you see the dash "-" it means "from 24 to 25, build this". You may want to clarify "at 24 OR 25".

Excellent guide, i think the first responder said it best.
Micro your Macro
AnibalEsmit
Profile Joined May 2011
Spain9 Posts
July 22 2011 08:31 GMT
#12
Geiko's 3gate defensive PvP is more forgiving with mistakes, thus safer, although this one is better economically. I would recommend that everyone below mid-masters should go for the Geiko build to survive a 4gate while not 4gating though.
Me encanta que los planes salgan bien :D
Anomandaris
Profile Joined July 2010
Afghanistan440 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 10:13:51
July 22 2011 09:24 GMT
#13
I think it is an interesting build. It has a couple of good advantages: it looks like a 4 gate and it has decent eco. I think that this build can hold off a 4 gate if you are able to snipe the probe before he makes two pylons below your ramp. This is definately doable on maps like testbug, shakuras and other maps with a closed natural.
However, I must admit I am far from convinced this hold a 4 gate on maps with an open natural where sniping the initial probe is doubtfull. Maps like meta, xelnaga, typhon etc. In your own replay on xelnaga caverns: your opponent got outmicroed at start, and didn't get two pylons off below the ramp, because his probes takes a weird path to your base. (Edit: I mean the game 'Defense vs 4 gate into long game')
You basically have no replays of MC succeeding holding off a 4gate, btw.
I am willing to 4 gate anyone who think he can hold this on xelnaga for example. I only play on eu sadly. I am 1900 master btw.
My next guide will be on robo blink play in PvP.

Robo + blink is the best way in pvp!! On eu server half of the games of pvp are robo+blink vs robo+ blink. This is imo the future of pvp and I will definately watch out for your guide.




Tonyoh
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
France218 Posts
July 22 2011 11:37 GMT
#14
It's not that ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240236

User was warned for this post
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Liquid-Jinro/174837579208018?ref=ts
Anomandaris
Profile Joined July 2010
Afghanistan440 Posts
July 22 2011 11:39 GMT
#15
On July 22 2011 20:37 Tonyoh wrote:
It's not that ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240236

No it is totally different. read the OP dude!
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 22:40:30
July 22 2011 22:34 GMT
#16
On July 22 2011 17:31 AnibalEsmit wrote:
Geiko's 3gate defensive PvP is more forgiving with mistakes, thus safer, although this one is better economically. I would recommend that everyone below mid-masters should go for the Geiko build to survive a 4gate while not 4gating though.


Yea, I agree. I've practiced this build around 30 times so far and I still can only make it work around 75% of the time.

On July 22 2011 18:24 Anomandaris wrote:
I think it is an interesting build. It has a couple of good advantages: it looks like a 4 gate and it has decent eco. I think that this build can hold off a 4 gate if you are able to snipe the probe before he makes two pylons below your ramp. This is definately doable on maps like testbug, shakuras and other maps with a closed natural.
However, I must admit I am far from convinced this hold a 4 gate on maps with an open natural where sniping the initial probe is doubtfull. Maps like meta, xelnaga, typhon etc. In your own replay on xelnaga caverns: your opponent got outmicroed at start, and didn't get two pylons off below the ramp, because his probes takes a weird path to your base. (Edit: I mean the game 'Defense vs 4 gate into long game')
You basically have no replays of MC succeeding holding off a 4gate, btw.
I am willing to 4 gate anyone who think he can hold this on xelnaga for example. I only play on eu sadly. I am 1900 master btw.
Show nested quote +
My next guide will be on robo blink play in PvP.

Robo + blink is the best way in pvp!! On eu server half of the games of pvp are robo+blink vs robo+ blink. This is imo the future of pvp and I will definately watch out for your guide.


Yea, this is a good point. The build relies on intercepting an incoming probe that tries to pylon your ramp before 5:20. It isn't 100% reliable, but if you stand just slightly in front of your ramp you should be able to kill the probe before he gets off 2 pylon at your ramp with a combined 4 stalker shots from 2 stalkers. 1 pylon is very manageable, but 2 is almost certain death. I'd love to play with you but I don't have a euro account atm. I can probably borrow one from a friend though if you pm me your info.
Moderator
IIIOmegaIII
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden319 Posts
July 22 2011 23:37 GMT
#17
cool stuff, will def try it =)
tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
July 23 2011 00:35 GMT
#18
On July 22 2011 14:56 4kmonk wrote:
Does this build work on talderim altar?
No.

i lol'ed pretty hard ^^

thanks for the guide!
Forbs
Profile Joined January 2011
United States76 Posts
July 23 2011 00:36 GMT
#19
Nice guide. Sorry I didn't have time to 4 gate you 20 times to help you test this!
ForTheDr3am
Profile Joined November 2010
842 Posts
July 23 2011 00:42 GMT
#20
On July 23 2011 07:34 4kmonk wrote:
Yea, this is a good point. The build relies on intercepting an incoming probe that tries to pylon your ramp before 5:20. It isn't 100% reliable, but if you stand just slightly in front of your ramp you should be able to kill the probe before he gets off 2 pylon at your ramp with a combined 4 stalker shots from 2 stalkers. 1 pylon is very manageable, but 2 is almost certain death. I'd love to play with you but I don't have a euro account atm. I can probably borrow one from a friend though if you pm me your info.


To be fair, which build except a 20, maybe 22, Probe 4 Gate can hold if the opponent gets the double Pylon at your ramp up uncontested? Even if you are just 10 seconds behind on your warpgate you are basically dead, so you really need to prevent these Pylons from getting up in PvP no matter what you do.
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