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On July 23 2011 09:42 ForTheDr3am wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 07:34 4kmonk wrote:
Yea, this is a good point. The build relies on intercepting an incoming probe that tries to pylon your ramp before 5:20. It isn't 100% reliable, but if you stand just slightly in front of your ramp you should be able to kill the probe before he gets off 2 pylon at your ramp with a combined 4 stalker shots from 2 stalkers. 1 pylon is very manageable, but 2 is almost certain death. I'd love to play with you but I don't have a euro account atm. I can probably borrow one from a friend though if you pm me your info. To be fair, which build except a 20, maybe 22, Probe 4 Gate can hold if the opponent gets the double Pylon at your ramp up uncontested? Even if you are just 10 seconds behind on your warpgate you are basically dead, so you really need to prevent these Pylons from getting up in PvP no matter what you do.
My build can ^^
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Nice, clean, and thorough guide. Awesome job finding/analyzing appropriate replays too. Good work! 
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Very nice guide. I like this build a lot because it requires surgical precision, or you die. On the flipside, if you execute it close to perfection it improves on many aspects of your gameplay. Looking forward to your next guide on PvP midgame!
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awsome [G] !
I will not try it cause i even saw MC fail this build.
Looking forward to you blink robo [G] !
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Awesome guide bro, huge MC fan here, definitely gonna use this ^_^
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Awesome job monk, this guy destroys all his practice partners in pvp
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United States8476 Posts
I'm kinda surprised this isn't getting more responses/discussion, as I think it should be one of the mainstays of standard pvp.
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On July 24 2011 19:54 4kmonk wrote:
I'm kinda surprised this isn't getting more responses/discussion, as I think it should be one of the mainstays of standard pvp.
I think it's because a lot of people are writing this off since MC couldn't make this work in his Ro8 match against HongUn. Plus, it doesn't really forgive errors in execution.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 24 2011 22:35 novabossa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 19:54 4kmonk wrote:
I'm kinda surprised this isn't getting more responses/discussion, as I think it should be one of the mainstays of standard pvp. I think it's because a lot of people are writing this off since MC couldn't make this work in his Ro8 match against HongUn. Plus, it doesn't really forgive errors in execution.
First of all, although HongUn's build looked like a typical 4 gate, I believe it was a very specifically planned out 4 gate that was designed to snipe MC's build. Because MC uses this 3 gate build almost exclusively for macro games, it was very easy for Hungun to study all his replays and come up with the build that he did.
Also, although MC lost this game, it was very possible for him to defend it. He just had to take a slightly more forward position with his initial 2 units and snipe the incoming probe, a relatively easy feat on crossfire. In the future, we'll have to see if he makes this adjustment, mixes up his macro builds a bit more, or abandons this build altogether.
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[QUOTE]On July 25 2011 05:33 4kmonk wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 24 2011 22:35 novabossa wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 24 2011 19:54 4kmonk wrote:
I'm kinda surprised this isn't getting more responses/discussion, as I think it should be one of the mainstays of standard pvp.[/QUOTE]
In the future, we'll have to see if he makes this adjustment, mixes up his macro builds a bit more, or abandons this build altogether.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly why this thread hasn't gotten more love; people are just waiting for more data. MC's losses to Hong-Un make this build of dubious merit for the time being.
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United States8476 Posts
only 1 loss though =/. He only lost once doing this build.
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I really like the guide in the way its presented and written, I really enjoyed the read
The replays are good stuff as well, as soon as I'm home, I'm going to study them ^.^ (I hope this won't count as a "I'm currently at work"-warning :D)
As it seems we're in the age of defensive 3gates right now with variations of that spawning everywhere.
I'm really curious where PvP will be in a couple of months.
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While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger.
User was warned for this post
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this build looks interesting, I noticed he did a different defensive 3 gate but hadn't had the time to analyze it as much as you lol thanks. have u noticed his defensive 4 gate on taldarim where he gets the second gate early with the double sentry and delayed 3rd and 4th gates? I have been wondering if there was a way to use that build not on just taldarim but haven't gotten around to looking at it and studying it very much.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 28 2011 16:33 kenkaze291 wrote:
this build looks interesting, I noticed he did a different defensive 3 gate but hadn't had the time to analyze it as much as you lol thanks. have u noticed his defensive 4 gate on taldarim where he gets the second gate early with the double sentry and delayed 3rd and 4th gates? I have been wondering if there was a way to use that build not on just taldarim but haven't gotten around to looking at it and studying it very much.
That's a very common build on other maps actually except you don't get 4 gates and only 3. I refer to it as the quick gas into 3 stalker build in my guide. I believe TT1 does it a lot. Check out any of his replays for details. On talderim, it actually doesn't work as well as one might think. It's probably a harder build to execute than this.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote:
While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger.
I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons.
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On July 28 2011 16:57 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote:
While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger. I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons.
I have been using a 1 gate robo recently in PvP (learned it from the top master streamer I watch who uses it and has like a 65% win rate in PvP). Also used the strategy compilation thread ([G] Basic Openings) and the guide kcdc wrote up.
I go for roughly
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
17 core
18 gas
20 lot
22 wg (w/ 4 chronos)
24 stalker
26 sentry
28 robo (at about 4:45)
second gate at 5:05
one more sentry
have an immortal out (chronoed) by roughly 6 minutes
a second one by 6:45ish,
then go for a relatively balanced composition of zealots, stalkers, and sentries until I repel the 4 gate, then since I am ahead on tech (he went for a 4 gate and I have robo tech), I can get colossi faster and usually have either an extra colossus or two in a later engagement, a faster expansion, or range.
An alternative build order off of 1 gas is kcdc's build:
9 pylon (1st chronoboost on 11th probe)
13 gate (scout with probe that builds gateway)
13 gas (will have to cut probe production for about 1 second here. chronoboost immediately after starting next probe)
15 pylon
core @ 100% gate
zealot @100 minerals
stalker and warpgate research @ 100% core (chronoboost both gateway and core at this point. this allows you to get your stalker earlier to deny scouting and makes it look like a 4 gate)
robo ASAP when you can deny scouting (chrono the stalker out and start the robo out of the probe's vision if it stays in your base to be hunted down by your stalker. you need an immortal by 6 minutes and there aren't many seconds to spare)
pylon
robo @ or before 100% stalker (see above regarding timing)
zealot @ 100 minerals
2nd gateway
pylon
immortal
zealot
@100% warpgate research, 2 more zealots and another immortal
Here are MattC's videos of him using this. They aren't against hard 4 gates, but they show the edge you get in tech.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwC3rEOHP8&feature=player_embedded
kcdc's guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430
Here is a video GomJabbar made recently going over the build's strengths.
+ Show Spoiler +
And another video of him:
+ Show Spoiler +
Here is a video of Axslav going 2 gate robo, but with 2 gates before robo. I haven't tried it and it's a strange game, but if Axslav is doing it it probably has some merit.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is a variation using 3 gate robo and more stalkers used by Nightend to defeat Naniwa, who went for blink stalkers. Nice way to adapt if you discover you are not being 4 gated.
+ Show Spoiler +
I prefer having a sentry rather than pure zealot/immortal to be safe against hardcore 10 gate 4 gates.
(And don't knock it til you try it; I doubted this would work at first also, hearing from many people that robo was suicide against a 4 gate. When this build was created, it needed 5 more seconds to be safe and it got 20 in Patch 1.3.3.).
What I find strong about this build:
With good micro, this can hold a 4 gate. You need to place force fields in the right place at the right time, cutting off units at your ramp and killing them with zealots and immortals. But after some practice, it feels pretty natural. Also, it is nice to take down proxy pylons in 3 seconds with a pair of immortals.
Blink transitions: You have immortals and colossi. He needs to perform some godlike micro and you need to slip up for him to win.
DT builds. You have a robo. Chrono out an observer and his push is powerless.
Robo transitions: You have a faster robo and robo bay. Unless you slip up, you win
Defensive 4 gate: You just teched faster than he did; you should win
Defensive 3 gate: While he may have a few more probes, tech defines PvP moreso than economy does. Your edge in tech outweighs his extra 2-4 probes. This is where I find the edge I mentioned. You want to gain a tiny advantage in PvP through either economy or tech, both require decent micro (the 3 gate arguably requires more), both are not all in, but while the 3 gate gets you a few extra probes, the 1 gate robo puts you farther ahead on tech.
Maps: The only map this is very weak on in the new map pool is Tal'Darim Altar. It was weakest on Scrap Station but it was removed. It was also tricky on Delta Quadrant because of backdoor warp ins, but that was removed as well.
If you go to this page and go to the Protoss section, there is a replay that demonstrates it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400
Tyler has also been using a similar build with a 10 gate opening into robo. Day9 did a daily about it.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767
It is aimed to be even safer. You get your robo at about the 4 minute mark and have faster immortals (1 already out when the 4 gate hits, the second going to pop within ten seconds).
Sorry for not going into so much depth in my first post. I thought 1 gate robo was more of a well known strategy for PvP.
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On July 28 2011 17:44 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 16:57 4kmonk wrote:On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote:
While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger. I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons. Here are MattC's videos of him using this. They aren't against hard 4 gates, but they show the edge you get in tech. + Show Spoiler +kcdc's guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430Here is a video GomJabbar made recently going over the build's strengths. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwRdQaP-yQ&feature=player_embeddedI prefer having a sentry rather than pure zealot/immortal to be safe against hardcore 10 gate 4 gates. (And don't knock it til you try it; I doubted this would work at first also, hearing from many people that robo was suicide against a 4 gate. When this build was created, it needed 5 more seconds to be safe and it got 20 in Patch 1.3.3.).
I'm sorry but I don't like this build at all (the one in the youtube vid, which seems to be completely different from the one you posted btw).
No stalker means free information in your base up until 5:45 when the immortal pops out. He can feel safe to pump out probes (having 26 at 6:00 when you only have 20 because you have no clue what he is doing and need to prepare 4 gate).
He can also get a stargate and 3 gate + phoenix bust your ramp (got anything that shoots up ?)
Also, I question the fact that this is really safe vs 4 gate. The probe in your base will scout that you have no stalker, therefore no way to deny the first two proxy pylons at your ramp. From there, You just have to warp in 4 zealots (instead of 4 stalkers). I'd love to see you hold 5 zealots + 2 stalkers with one immortal and 3 zealots.
Also, I hate it that everyone i disagree with is on the NA server and can't play against me 
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Hey, with your first round of warp in, (from the initial gate) why do you choose to warp sentry instead of a stalker when you have a sentry at the ramp? Is it just for precaution?
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United States8476 Posts
On July 28 2011 18:24 cainine wrote:
Hey, with your first round of warp in, (from the initial gate) why do you choose to warp sentry instead of a stalker when you have a sentry at the ramp? Is it just for precaution?
This is a very good point. The first 3 warpins from your gateways are actually interchangeable. You can go either sentry stalker stalker or stalker sentry stalker. In the guide, I put sentry as the first unit because that's the way MC does it. The way I see it there's 2 advantages of going stalker first. You get a bit more dps and if for some reason you can rule out 4 gate within 10 seconds, you don't have to get the 2nd sentry. If you get sentry first, you get more energy for that sentry. In the end it's a preference thing.
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EPT
