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United States8476 Posts
Hello, this is NrGmonk and today I will be teaching you a defensive 3 gate build. This is yet another viable defensive PvP build that hold a 4 gate. oGsMC, widely considered the world's best protoss as of the writing of this guide, uses it almost exclusively as his macro PvP build. Be warned though that this is a very advanced build and has a high difficulty of execution. After 15 games, my success rate was 33% while after 30 games it was only 75%. I was making both execution mistakes and not accounting for every little thing that could go wrong. Again, this build is not for a casual player, as the timings are razor thin and any one small mistake will cost you the game. However, with the help of this guide you should do better than I did, as not only will I teach you the build order, I will go through it and mention exactly what you should be paying attention to at each point in time.
When to do this build:
+ Show Spoiler +This build is an all purpose build for when you think your opponent could be 4 gating you. Do not use it if he's mined too much gas or used too many chornoboosts on his probes.
Build order:
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon
*chronoboost probes
12 gate
*cb probes
14 gas, mine gas immediately after
15 plyon
16 cyber
17 or 18 zealot
21 stalker
21 warpgates
*cb x 4 on warpgates
cut probes at 24 supply or 20 probes
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Before this point, this is the normal protoss opening
24 or 25 pylon in back of base
24 or 25 gas, mine gas immediately after
24 or 25 probe
24 or 25 stalker
27 probe
28 gateway
28 gateway
resume probe production
30 sentry
*cb sentry at 5:13
32 pylon
34 sentry
36 stalker
38 stalker
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Notes:
-You can abandon this build midway at any time during it when you make a read that your opponent is not 4 gating. This can be your opponent not being aggressive
-If your opponent gas steals you, attack the gas and continue with the build.
-You can make a slight alteration of the build by either delaying or not delaying your 3rd plyon. Delaying your 3rd pylon sells more to your opponent that you're 4 gating while not delaying the 3rd pylon allows you to get 1 more probe out in the long run. Keep in mind that if your opponent's scouting probe leaves your base extremely early, you don't have to make this choice.
Important timings:
+ Show Spoiler +For future references, these are the important timings of this build versus the standard 4 gate. These timings are also useful for someone trying to immitate the build.
4:20 Your first stalker comes out
5:00 Your second stalker comes out
5:30 Your first sentry comes out
5:40 Your second sentry starts warping in
5:45 Your second sentry warps in
5:45 First wave of your opponet's 4 stalkers warp in
5:55 Second and third gateways finish
6:05 Your 3rd and 4th stalker start warping in
6:10 Your 3rd and 4th stalker warp in
6:12 First wave of your opponent's 4 zealots warp in
Pylon build time: 25 seconds
Train of thought during this build:
+ Show Spoiler +4:20-4:50
Chase the enemy scouting probe and scout the inital vicinity of your base for pylons.
4:50-5:10
Be careful during this moment as there is a timing where you only have 1 zealot and 1 stalker and your opponent can possibly have 1 zealot 1 stalker and a probe at your ramp to build proxy pylons. Take a stance slightly in front of your ramp and immidately target any probes that try to approach your ramp.
5:00-5:50
During this time frame you have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers, which gives you map control on your side of the map. At 5:45 your opponent's first wave of units warp in and it will take about 5-10 seconds to get to your base, at which point you lose map control. Use this map control to aggressively scout your side of the map for units and pylons. However, do not leave your ramp vulnerable to any enemy probes. A probe building a pylon at your ramp or in your base before 5:20 is usually gg as he will be able to warp his first wave of units in your base. Thus on some maps such as xelnaga caverns where there are multiple paths to your base, you have to play slightly more defensive whereas on a map like shattered temple or shakrus plataeu, you can have your units more forward. Your goal at this stage is to delay the proxy pylon at your ramp as much as possible. His first wave of zealots warp in at 6:12 at the earliest and pylons take 25 seconds to build. Thus, any one second the proxy pylon at the ramp is delayed past 5:47 means that the first warpin is delayed by that many seconds. However, if you cannot delay this proxy pylon, it's not the end of the world. Do not chase your opponent's units. Chasing them may let you get a free zealot, but you risk the chance of your army getting cut in half or your opponent throwing down proxy pylons at your ramp, both of which are not worth the zealot.
5:50-6:12
This is this part where we actually try to defend the 4 gate. The first part is keeping your marco up. As soon as you confirm a 4 gate, build a 4th gate, cut probes, and remember to build units as soon as you can and pylons as soon as you need them. You actually don't need th 4th gate, but it's a nice safety precaution. Plus, your booming economy should be able to support 4 gates. Next, initally position your army so that your stalkers can hit his proxy pylons and get free hits on any units that attempt to run up the ramp.
The next part is extremely important: Do not get trigger happy with force field. Many people spam forcefield on their ramp and die when they've made too many sentries and they've run out of forcefields. Between 5:50 and 6:12, your opponent will only have 6 stalkers and 1 zealot, nothing more, probably nothing less. If your opponent does not try to run up your ramp, do not forcefield the ramp. If he does, idealy you want to forcefield 2 units above your ramp and micro back so that the enemy stalkers on low ground can't hit you. Forcefielding 3 units in is a bit dangerous and forcefielding 4 units in will probably lose you the game. This is one of the difficulties in executing this build: perfect forcefields.
6:12-~6:30
Your opponent will try to warp in his first wave of zealots at 6:12 or when his proxy pylon at your ramp finishes, whichever one comes second. Forcefield the ramp as soon as you see any warpins or a unit try to run up your ramp. Alternatively, forcefield your ramp at 6:12 or when his proxy pylon at your ramp finishes. The logic behind this is that you either force him to warp above the forcefield and get bludgeoned by stalker fire or you force him to warp on low ground.
6:30 onwards
From this point, just keep forcefielding during warpins or if units try to run up the ramp. Keep making stalkers unless you see you won't have a forcefield coming up and in that case make a sentry. If executed correctly, this build should not have to build anymore than 3 sentries. If you feel safe, resume probe production and add a tech building. Blink is generally the best transition since you've made so many stalkers but robo can work as well if you're deathly affraid of dts.
Common mistakes:
+ Show Spoiler +Overextending your first 3 units and losing them
Venturing too far from your ramp and letting proxy pylons get thrown down
Bad decision making on forcefields
Missed forced fields
Not morphing warpgates and warping in units in time
Not being aggressive enough with first 3 units
Bad army positioning during the 4 gate attack
Advantages and disadvantage over other defensive PvP builds:
+ Show Spoiler +Currently the other popular defensive PvP builds include the following: Defensive 4 gate Quick 2nd gas into 3 stalker rush IMYounghwa 3 stalker roboOther 3 stalker rush builds Geiko's defensive 3 gate1 gas 2 gate robo openingAdvantanges: Looks exactly like a 4 gate, so it will force a macro player to play more defensively if he wants to be safe. Many more probes than other builds: can go up to 26 at 6:00 Does not include a walloff in the build. Does not depend as much on denying a proxy pylon. Gets a 2nd gas and a fairly fast one. Does not care as much if your gas gets stolen. Does not lock you into a specific tech tree, ie blink. Disadvantages: Requires 2 sentries whereas other builds do not. You may have to build that 2nd sentry if for some reason you're not 100% sure he's 4 gating. Doesn't get as much gas as some other safe builds. Very difficult build to pull off and not forgiving for mistakes.
Example replays and vods:
+ Show Spoiler +
FAQs:
+ Show Spoiler +Does this build work on talderim altar?
No.
How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build?
This question is irrelavent as you scout adelscott's build way before commiting to this build.
I tried this build and it failed. What did I do wrong?
Post the replay and I'll tell you.
Comments and criticisms are welcome.
Grammar/spelling/formatting corrections are also welcome.
Also, if you liked this guide, be sure to check out my PvP Robo twilight guide.
NrGmonk.151
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Does this build work on talderim altar?
No.
How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build?
This question is irrelavent as you scout adelscott's build way before commiting to this build.
ROFL
Seriously it's the middle of the night here and I just burst out laughing from reading that. I spend too much time in these forums >.<
Oh, and this guide is pretty amazing. Not that it's a particularly awesome build or anything, but this is probably the best presentation of a guide I've seen yet. You clearly explain the build, how to properly think while executing this build, include important timings, and clearly explain WHY you want to use this build and compare it with other similar builds. Simply awesome. On top of that plenty of reps, both of yourself and pros. Good job again.
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Wow, nice guide. I hadn't even noticed that MC was doing a defensive 3 gate build. I mut have only seen his 1 gate robo, or expand games recently.
The advantage of this build seems to be that you get relatively late units, which allow you to not stop probe production.
Same as with my build though, I disagree that this looks like a 4 wg because you take your gas before the second stalker is out.
I question the timings you put on your build. Standard 4 gate will have units warped in at approx. 5:43 at your ramp. If you use 4 cb on cybercore, your units should finish warping in 7 sec later than his (approx 5:50) because he has 5 CB on wg.
Great write up I will definitely try it out when I can. I'd love to see a replay vs a 4 gate with first 2 pylons at the ramp as well.
I wonder how many people in this thread are going to tell the creator of this build that the idea of delaying your tech, getting a sentry and a zealot is bad :D
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Nice, I'll give it a try!
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This is basically my standard build in PvP if I smell a chance of a 4 gate. I take 2nd gas before zealot though and don't put any guys in it till later because i hate dealing with gas steals.
I'd like to emphasize something from the author since it's probably the most important part (other than not messing up the timings of the build). A probe building a pylon at your ramp or in your base before 5:20 is usually gg
From my experience i only have 1z/1s when the probe comes to your ramp to make a proxy pylon. I might be wrong since your build will be a little faster with a later gas.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 22 2011 15:21 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +
Does this build work on talderim altar?
No.
How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build?
This question is irrelavent as you scout adelscott's build way before commiting to this build.
ROFL Seriously it's the middle of the night here and I just burst out laughing from reading that. I spend too much time in these forums >.<
I knew someone would get a a kick out of that.
On July 22 2011 15:23 Geiko wrote:
I disagree that this looks like a 4 wg because you take your gas before the second stalker is out.
Your opponent can't scout that you took a 2nd gas because your first stalker will have chased him out.
On July 22 2011 15:23 Geiko wrote:
I question the timings you put on your build. Standard 4 gate will have units warped in at approx. 5:43 at your ramp. If you use 4 cb on cybercore, your units should finish warping in 7 sec later than his (approx 5:50) because he has 5 CB on wg.
Your chornoboost on your first gateway allows the gateway to transform into a warpgate faster, thus speeding up the warpin time of your 2nd sentry.
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Thanks a lot for this. I've been looking for a new PvP build because I hate all my builds.
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i will be learning this
you put 24/25 instead of 24/26
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United States8476 Posts
On July 22 2011 16:19 Fiendish wrote:
i will be learning this
you put 24/25 instead of 24/26
That's on purpose. It means you can either make that unit/building at 24 or 25 supply, depending on how you do the build.
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On July 22 2011 16:20 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:19 Fiendish wrote:
i will be learning this
you put 24/25 instead of 24/26 That's on purpose. It means you can either make that unit/building at 24 or 25 supply, depending on how you do the build.
Ahh i was confused at that point as well, normally when you see the dash "-" it means "from 24 to 25, build this". You may want to clarify "at 24 OR 25".
Excellent guide, i think the first responder said it best.
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Geiko's 3gate defensive PvP is more forgiving with mistakes, thus safer, although this one is better economically. I would recommend that everyone below mid-masters should go for the Geiko build to survive a 4gate while not 4gating though.
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I think it is an interesting build. It has a couple of good advantages: it looks like a 4 gate and it has decent eco. I think that this build can hold off a 4 gate if you are able to snipe the probe before he makes two pylons below your ramp. This is definately doable on maps like testbug, shakuras and other maps with a closed natural.
However, I must admit I am far from convinced this hold a 4 gate on maps with an open natural where sniping the initial probe is doubtfull. Maps like meta, xelnaga, typhon etc. In your own replay on xelnaga caverns: your opponent got outmicroed at start, and didn't get two pylons off below the ramp, because his probes takes a weird path to your base. (Edit: I mean the game 'Defense vs 4 gate into long game')
You basically have no replays of MC succeeding holding off a 4gate, btw.
I am willing to 4 gate anyone who think he can hold this on xelnaga for example. I only play on eu sadly. I am 1900 master btw.
My next guide will be on robo blink play in PvP.
Robo + blink is the best way in pvp!! On eu server half of the games of pvp are robo+blink vs robo+ blink. This is imo the future of pvp and I will definately watch out for your guide.
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No it is totally different. read the OP dude!
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United States8476 Posts
On July 22 2011 17:31 AnibalEsmit wrote:
Geiko's 3gate defensive PvP is more forgiving with mistakes, thus safer, although this one is better economically. I would recommend that everyone below mid-masters should go for the Geiko build to survive a 4gate while not 4gating though.
Yea, I agree. I've practiced this build around 30 times so far and I still can only make it work around 75% of the time.
On July 22 2011 18:24 Anomandaris wrote:I think it is an interesting build. It has a couple of good advantages: it looks like a 4 gate and it has decent eco. I think that this build can hold off a 4 gate if you are able to snipe the probe before he makes two pylons below your ramp. This is definately doable on maps like testbug, shakuras and other maps with a closed natural. However, I must admit I am far from convinced this hold a 4 gate on maps with an open natural where sniping the initial probe is doubtfull. Maps like meta, xelnaga, typhon etc. In your own replay on xelnaga caverns: your opponent got outmicroed at start, and didn't get two pylons off below the ramp, because his probes takes a weird path to your base. (Edit: I mean the game 'Defense vs 4 gate into long game') You basically have no replays of MC succeeding holding off a 4gate, btw. I am willing to 4 gate anyone who think he can hold this on xelnaga for example. I only play on eu sadly. I am 1900 master btw. Robo + blink is the best way in pvp!! On eu server half of the games of pvp are robo+blink vs robo+ blink. This is imo the future of pvp and I will definately watch out for your guide.
Yea, this is a good point. The build relies on intercepting an incoming probe that tries to pylon your ramp before 5:20. It isn't 100% reliable, but if you stand just slightly in front of your ramp you should be able to kill the probe before he gets off 2 pylon at your ramp with a combined 4 stalker shots from 2 stalkers. 1 pylon is very manageable, but 2 is almost certain death. I'd love to play with you but I don't have a euro account atm. I can probably borrow one from a friend though if you pm me your info.
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cool stuff, will def try it =)
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On July 22 2011 14:56 4kmonk wrote:
Does this build work on talderim altar?
No.
i lol'ed pretty hard ^^
thanks for the guide!
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Nice guide. Sorry I didn't have time to 4 gate you 20 times to help you test this!
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On July 23 2011 07:34 4kmonk wrote:
Yea, this is a good point. The build relies on intercepting an incoming probe that tries to pylon your ramp before 5:20. It isn't 100% reliable, but if you stand just slightly in front of your ramp you should be able to kill the probe before he gets off 2 pylon at your ramp with a combined 4 stalker shots from 2 stalkers. 1 pylon is very manageable, but 2 is almost certain death. I'd love to play with you but I don't have a euro account atm. I can probably borrow one from a friend though if you pm me your info.
To be fair, which build except a 20, maybe 22, Probe 4 Gate can hold if the opponent gets the double Pylon at your ramp up uncontested? Even if you are just 10 seconds behind on your warpgate you are basically dead, so you really need to prevent these Pylons from getting up in PvP no matter what you do.
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On July 23 2011 09:42 ForTheDr3am wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 07:34 4kmonk wrote:
Yea, this is a good point. The build relies on intercepting an incoming probe that tries to pylon your ramp before 5:20. It isn't 100% reliable, but if you stand just slightly in front of your ramp you should be able to kill the probe before he gets off 2 pylon at your ramp with a combined 4 stalker shots from 2 stalkers. 1 pylon is very manageable, but 2 is almost certain death. I'd love to play with you but I don't have a euro account atm. I can probably borrow one from a friend though if you pm me your info. To be fair, which build except a 20, maybe 22, Probe 4 Gate can hold if the opponent gets the double Pylon at your ramp up uncontested? Even if you are just 10 seconds behind on your warpgate you are basically dead, so you really need to prevent these Pylons from getting up in PvP no matter what you do.
My build can ^^
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Nice, clean, and thorough guide. Awesome job finding/analyzing appropriate replays too. Good work! 
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Very nice guide. I like this build a lot because it requires surgical precision, or you die. On the flipside, if you execute it close to perfection it improves on many aspects of your gameplay. Looking forward to your next guide on PvP midgame!
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awsome [G] !
I will not try it cause i even saw MC fail this build.
Looking forward to you blink robo [G] !
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Awesome guide bro, huge MC fan here, definitely gonna use this ^_^
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Awesome job monk, this guy destroys all his practice partners in pvp
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United States8476 Posts
I'm kinda surprised this isn't getting more responses/discussion, as I think it should be one of the mainstays of standard pvp.
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On July 24 2011 19:54 4kmonk wrote:
I'm kinda surprised this isn't getting more responses/discussion, as I think it should be one of the mainstays of standard pvp.
I think it's because a lot of people are writing this off since MC couldn't make this work in his Ro8 match against HongUn. Plus, it doesn't really forgive errors in execution.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 24 2011 22:35 novabossa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 19:54 4kmonk wrote:
I'm kinda surprised this isn't getting more responses/discussion, as I think it should be one of the mainstays of standard pvp. I think it's because a lot of people are writing this off since MC couldn't make this work in his Ro8 match against HongUn. Plus, it doesn't really forgive errors in execution.
First of all, although HongUn's build looked like a typical 4 gate, I believe it was a very specifically planned out 4 gate that was designed to snipe MC's build. Because MC uses this 3 gate build almost exclusively for macro games, it was very easy for Hungun to study all his replays and come up with the build that he did.
Also, although MC lost this game, it was very possible for him to defend it. He just had to take a slightly more forward position with his initial 2 units and snipe the incoming probe, a relatively easy feat on crossfire. In the future, we'll have to see if he makes this adjustment, mixes up his macro builds a bit more, or abandons this build altogether.
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[QUOTE]On July 25 2011 05:33 4kmonk wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 24 2011 22:35 novabossa wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 24 2011 19:54 4kmonk wrote:
I'm kinda surprised this isn't getting more responses/discussion, as I think it should be one of the mainstays of standard pvp.[/QUOTE]
In the future, we'll have to see if he makes this adjustment, mixes up his macro builds a bit more, or abandons this build altogether.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly why this thread hasn't gotten more love; people are just waiting for more data. MC's losses to Hong-Un make this build of dubious merit for the time being.
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United States8476 Posts
only 1 loss though =/. He only lost once doing this build.
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I really like the guide in the way its presented and written, I really enjoyed the read
The replays are good stuff as well, as soon as I'm home, I'm going to study them ^.^ (I hope this won't count as a "I'm currently at work"-warning :D)
As it seems we're in the age of defensive 3gates right now with variations of that spawning everywhere.
I'm really curious where PvP will be in a couple of months.
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While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger.
User was warned for this post
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this build looks interesting, I noticed he did a different defensive 3 gate but hadn't had the time to analyze it as much as you lol thanks. have u noticed his defensive 4 gate on taldarim where he gets the second gate early with the double sentry and delayed 3rd and 4th gates? I have been wondering if there was a way to use that build not on just taldarim but haven't gotten around to looking at it and studying it very much.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 28 2011 16:33 kenkaze291 wrote:
this build looks interesting, I noticed he did a different defensive 3 gate but hadn't had the time to analyze it as much as you lol thanks. have u noticed his defensive 4 gate on taldarim where he gets the second gate early with the double sentry and delayed 3rd and 4th gates? I have been wondering if there was a way to use that build not on just taldarim but haven't gotten around to looking at it and studying it very much.
That's a very common build on other maps actually except you don't get 4 gates and only 3. I refer to it as the quick gas into 3 stalker build in my guide. I believe TT1 does it a lot. Check out any of his replays for details. On talderim, it actually doesn't work as well as one might think. It's probably a harder build to execute than this.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote:
While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger.
I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons.
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On July 28 2011 16:57 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote:
While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger. I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons.
I have been using a 1 gate robo recently in PvP (learned it from the top master streamer I watch who uses it and has like a 65% win rate in PvP). Also used the strategy compilation thread ([G] Basic Openings) and the guide kcdc wrote up.
I go for roughly
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
17 core
18 gas
20 lot
22 wg (w/ 4 chronos)
24 stalker
26 sentry
28 robo (at about 4:45)
second gate at 5:05
one more sentry
have an immortal out (chronoed) by roughly 6 minutes
a second one by 6:45ish,
then go for a relatively balanced composition of zealots, stalkers, and sentries until I repel the 4 gate, then since I am ahead on tech (he went for a 4 gate and I have robo tech), I can get colossi faster and usually have either an extra colossus or two in a later engagement, a faster expansion, or range.
An alternative build order off of 1 gas is kcdc's build:
9 pylon (1st chronoboost on 11th probe)
13 gate (scout with probe that builds gateway)
13 gas (will have to cut probe production for about 1 second here. chronoboost immediately after starting next probe)
15 pylon
core @ 100% gate
zealot @100 minerals
stalker and warpgate research @ 100% core (chronoboost both gateway and core at this point. this allows you to get your stalker earlier to deny scouting and makes it look like a 4 gate)
robo ASAP when you can deny scouting (chrono the stalker out and start the robo out of the probe's vision if it stays in your base to be hunted down by your stalker. you need an immortal by 6 minutes and there aren't many seconds to spare)
pylon
robo @ or before 100% stalker (see above regarding timing)
zealot @ 100 minerals
2nd gateway
pylon
immortal
zealot
@100% warpgate research, 2 more zealots and another immortal
Here are MattC's videos of him using this. They aren't against hard 4 gates, but they show the edge you get in tech.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwC3rEOHP8&feature=player_embedded
kcdc's guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430
Here is a video GomJabbar made recently going over the build's strengths.
+ Show Spoiler +
And another video of him:
+ Show Spoiler +
Here is a video of Axslav going 2 gate robo, but with 2 gates before robo. I haven't tried it and it's a strange game, but if Axslav is doing it it probably has some merit.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is a variation using 3 gate robo and more stalkers used by Nightend to defeat Naniwa, who went for blink stalkers. Nice way to adapt if you discover you are not being 4 gated.
+ Show Spoiler +
I prefer having a sentry rather than pure zealot/immortal to be safe against hardcore 10 gate 4 gates.
(And don't knock it til you try it; I doubted this would work at first also, hearing from many people that robo was suicide against a 4 gate. When this build was created, it needed 5 more seconds to be safe and it got 20 in Patch 1.3.3.).
What I find strong about this build:
With good micro, this can hold a 4 gate. You need to place force fields in the right place at the right time, cutting off units at your ramp and killing them with zealots and immortals. But after some practice, it feels pretty natural. Also, it is nice to take down proxy pylons in 3 seconds with a pair of immortals.
Blink transitions: You have immortals and colossi. He needs to perform some godlike micro and you need to slip up for him to win.
DT builds. You have a robo. Chrono out an observer and his push is powerless.
Robo transitions: You have a faster robo and robo bay. Unless you slip up, you win
Defensive 4 gate: You just teched faster than he did; you should win
Defensive 3 gate: While he may have a few more probes, tech defines PvP moreso than economy does. Your edge in tech outweighs his extra 2-4 probes. This is where I find the edge I mentioned. You want to gain a tiny advantage in PvP through either economy or tech, both require decent micro (the 3 gate arguably requires more), both are not all in, but while the 3 gate gets you a few extra probes, the 1 gate robo puts you farther ahead on tech.
Maps: The only map this is very weak on in the new map pool is Tal'Darim Altar. It was weakest on Scrap Station but it was removed. It was also tricky on Delta Quadrant because of backdoor warp ins, but that was removed as well.
If you go to this page and go to the Protoss section, there is a replay that demonstrates it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400
Tyler has also been using a similar build with a 10 gate opening into robo. Day9 did a daily about it.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767
It is aimed to be even safer. You get your robo at about the 4 minute mark and have faster immortals (1 already out when the 4 gate hits, the second going to pop within ten seconds).
Sorry for not going into so much depth in my first post. I thought 1 gate robo was more of a well known strategy for PvP.
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On July 28 2011 17:44 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 16:57 4kmonk wrote:On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote:
While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger. I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons. Here are MattC's videos of him using this. They aren't against hard 4 gates, but they show the edge you get in tech. + Show Spoiler +kcdc's guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430Here is a video GomJabbar made recently going over the build's strengths. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwRdQaP-yQ&feature=player_embeddedI prefer having a sentry rather than pure zealot/immortal to be safe against hardcore 10 gate 4 gates. (And don't knock it til you try it; I doubted this would work at first also, hearing from many people that robo was suicide against a 4 gate. When this build was created, it needed 5 more seconds to be safe and it got 20 in Patch 1.3.3.).
I'm sorry but I don't like this build at all (the one in the youtube vid, which seems to be completely different from the one you posted btw).
No stalker means free information in your base up until 5:45 when the immortal pops out. He can feel safe to pump out probes (having 26 at 6:00 when you only have 20 because you have no clue what he is doing and need to prepare 4 gate).
He can also get a stargate and 3 gate + phoenix bust your ramp (got anything that shoots up ?)
Also, I question the fact that this is really safe vs 4 gate. The probe in your base will scout that you have no stalker, therefore no way to deny the first two proxy pylons at your ramp. From there, You just have to warp in 4 zealots (instead of 4 stalkers). I'd love to see you hold 5 zealots + 2 stalkers with one immortal and 3 zealots.
Also, I hate it that everyone i disagree with is on the NA server and can't play against me 
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Hey, with your first round of warp in, (from the initial gate) why do you choose to warp sentry instead of a stalker when you have a sentry at the ramp? Is it just for precaution?
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On July 28 2011 18:24 cainine wrote:
Hey, with your first round of warp in, (from the initial gate) why do you choose to warp sentry instead of a stalker when you have a sentry at the ramp? Is it just for precaution?
This is a very good point. The first 3 warpins from your gateways are actually interchangeable. You can go either sentry stalker stalker or stalker sentry stalker. In the guide, I put sentry as the first unit because that's the way MC does it. The way I see it there's 2 advantages of going stalker first. You get a bit more dps and if for some reason you can rule out 4 gate within 10 seconds, you don't have to get the 2nd sentry. If you get sentry first, you get more energy for that sentry. In the end it's a preference thing.
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On July 28 2011 18:21 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 17:44 Darclite wrote:On July 28 2011 16:57 4kmonk wrote:On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote:
While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger. I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons. Here are MattC's videos of him using this. They aren't against hard 4 gates, but they show the edge you get in tech. + Show Spoiler +kcdc's guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430Here is a video GomJabbar made recently going over the build's strengths. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwRdQaP-yQ&feature=player_embeddedI prefer having a sentry rather than pure zealot/immortal to be safe against hardcore 10 gate 4 gates. (And don't knock it til you try it; I doubted this would work at first also, hearing from many people that robo was suicide against a 4 gate. When this build was created, it needed 5 more seconds to be safe and it got 20 in Patch 1.3.3.). I'm sorry but I don't like this build at all (the one in the youtube vid, which seems to be completely different from the one you posted btw). No stalker means free information in your base up until 5:45 when the immortal pops out. He can feel safe to pump out probes (having 26 at 6:00 when you only have 20 because you have no clue what he is doing and need to prepare 4 gate). He can also get a stargate and 3 gate + phoenix bust your ramp (got anything that shoots up ?) Also, I question the fact that this is really safe vs 4 gate. The probe in your base will scout that you have no stalker, therefore no way to deny the first two proxy pylons at your ramp. From there, You just have to warp in 4 zealots (instead of 4 stalkers). I'd love to see you hold 5 zealots + 2 stalkers with one immortal and 3 zealots. Also, I hate it that everyone i disagree with is on the NA server and can't play against me
Fair enough.
As far as the differences in the builds, I just found as much information I could about the build and included variations to show how people adapted with it.
I agree with you about the lack of a stalker, which is why I prefer to make one before my sentry. Regarding the probe count, I usually stop at 24, which is more than most protosses stop at, so I feel pretty comfortable in that regard.
Yes, stargate builds are pretty good against this (although if you scout it, you can produce stalkers constantly out of your gates and you have about a 40% chance with decent micro. Although I don't see many people go for the stargate to be honest.
I said I prefer the sentry (or two) instead of the zealots because of the threat of a zealot heavy 4 gate, I agree with you on that one too actually. Idk why people like pure zealot immortal, but some people are succeeding with it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 28 2011 17:44 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 16:57 4kmonk wrote:On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote:
While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger. I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons. I have been using a 1 gate robo recently in PvP (learned it from the top master streamer I watch who uses it and has like a 65% win rate in PvP). Also used the strategy compilation thread ([G] Basic Openings) and the guide kcdc wrote up. I go for roughly 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 18 gas 20 lot 22 wg (w/ 4 chronos) 24 stalker 26 sentry 28 robo (at about 4:45) second gate at 5:05 one more sentry have an immortal out (chronoed) by roughly 6 minutes a second one by 6:45ish, then go for a relatively balanced composition of zealots, stalkers, and sentries until I repel the 4 gate, then since I am ahead on tech (he went for a 4 gate and I have robo tech), I can get colossi faster and usually have either an extra colossus or two in a later engagement, a faster expansion, or range. An alternative build order off of 1 gas is kcdc's build: 9 pylon (1st chronoboost on 11th probe) 13 gate (scout with probe that builds gateway) 13 gas (will have to cut probe production for about 1 second here. chronoboost immediately after starting next probe) 15 pylon core @ 100% gate zealot @100 minerals stalker and warpgate research @ 100% core (chronoboost both gateway and core at this point. this allows you to get your stalker earlier to deny scouting and makes it look like a 4 gate) robo ASAP when you can deny scouting (chrono the stalker out and start the robo out of the probe's vision if it stays in your base to be hunted down by your stalker. you need an immortal by 6 minutes and there aren't many seconds to spare) pylon robo @ or before 100% stalker (see above regarding timing) zealot @ 100 minerals 2nd gateway pylon immortal zealot @100% warpgate research, 2 more zealots and another immortal Here are MattC's videos of him using this. They aren't against hard 4 gates, but they show the edge you get in tech. + Show Spoiler +kcdc's guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430Here is a video GomJabbar made recently going over the build's strengths. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwRdQaP-yQ&feature=player_embedded And another video of him: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaW-iA3j8AI Here is a video of Axslav going 2 gate robo, but with 2 gates before robo. I haven't tried it and it's a strange game, but if Axslav is doing it it probably has some merit. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNe7u4ABkZ8 This is a variation using 3 gate robo and more stalkers used by Nightend to defeat Naniwa, who went for blink stalkers. Nice way to adapt if you discover you are not being 4 gated. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=monVDSYk-Tc&feature=related I prefer having a sentry rather than pure zealot/immortal to be safe against hardcore 10 gate 4 gates. (And don't knock it til you try it; I doubted this would work at first also, hearing from many people that robo was suicide against a 4 gate. When this build was created, it needed 5 more seconds to be safe and it got 20 in Patch 1.3.3.). What I find strong about this build: With good micro, this can hold a 4 gate. You need to place force fields in the right place at the right time, cutting off units at your ramp and killing them with zealots and immortals. But after some practice, it feels pretty natural. Also, it is nice to take down proxy pylons in 3 seconds with a pair of immortals. Blink transitions: You have immortals and colossi. He needs to perform some godlike micro and you need to slip up for him to win. DT builds. You have a robo. Chrono out an observer and his push is powerless. Robo transitions: You have a faster robo and robo bay. Unless you slip up, you win Defensive 4 gate: You just teched faster than he did; you should win Defensive 3 gate: While he may have a few more probes, tech defines PvP moreso than economy does. Your edge in tech outweighs his extra 2-4 probes. This is where I find the edge I mentioned. You want to gain a tiny advantage in PvP through either economy or tech, both require decent micro (the 3 gate arguably requires more), both are not all in, but while the 3 gate gets you a few extra probes, the 1 gate robo puts you farther ahead on tech. Maps: The only map this is very weak on in the new map pool is Tal'Darim Altar. It was weakest on Scrap Station but it was removed. It was also tricky on Delta Quadrant because of backdoor warp ins, but that was removed as well. If you go to this page and go to the Protoss section, there is a replay that demonstrates it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400Tyler has also been using a similar build with a 10 gate opening into robo. Day9 did a daily about it. http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767It is aimed to be even safer. You get your robo at about the 4 minute mark and have faster immortals (1 already out when the 4 gate hits, the second going to pop within ten seconds). Sorry for not going into so much depth in my first post. I thought 1 gate robo was more of a well known strategy for PvP.
The first build you mention will not hold a 4 gate. You cannot stop him from plyoning the bottom of your ramp and you must waste a ff in order to stop the first zealot/stalker from going up your ramp.
The second build you mention is kcdc's build, which kcdc himself says isn't completely safe vs a well executed 4 gate.
While I don't doubt there may be 1 gate robo builds that can hold off 4 gates, these aren't it.
Also your argument seems to be that tech should be the most important thing that matters in holding off a 4 gate. You don't weigh the advantages of my build which are clearly listed in my guide. The 3 that stick out are a 6 probe advantage, the threat of a 4 gate coming from you, and freedom to tech to anything after the initial build.
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On July 28 2011 18:42 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 18:24 cainine wrote:
Hey, with your first round of warp in, (from the initial gate) why do you choose to warp sentry instead of a stalker when you have a sentry at the ramp? Is it just for precaution? This is a very good point. The first 3 warpins from your gateways are actually interchangeable. You can go either sentry stalker stalker or stalker sentry stalker. In the guide, I put sentry as the first unit because that's the way MC does it. The way I see it there's 2 advantages of going stalker first. You get a bit more dps and if for some reason you can rule out 4 gate within 10 seconds, you don't have to get the 2nd sentry. If you get sentry first, you get more energy for that sentry. In the end it's a preference thing.
 , thanks. Just tried this out, looks very good
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"Does not care as much if your gas gets stolen."
I don't see how this would be the case. If your units are killing the stolen gas, how do you stop a probe from walking into your base and making a pylon?
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On August 01 2011 23:05 iamke55 wrote:
"Does not care as much if your gas gets stolen."
I don't see how this would be the case. If your units are killing the stolen gas, how do you stop a probe from walking into your base and making a pylon?
I believe you kill the gas before a probe can build a pylon in your base and safely defend it.
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deleted, yet quote saved.
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this is the build i use : )
nice to read the guide to know im doing the right stuff, a friend showed it to me, think he prob got it from here or watching MC
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 12 2011 16:06 chipman wrote:I have my own way of doing things. Using scfusion or whatnot I plugged in a bunch of checkpoints using existing timings and came up with my own 3 gate defense of 4gate a month or so ago, I still use it now. It opens up similar to the triple stalker build, in the way it feels, but not really. Here's how it goes. If gas is stolen, no big deal. Suggest the pulling of a couple probes to help dps it down and free up stalker. Better than a build order loss to be 50 minerals lower, I mean the assimilator costs more anyways... + Show Spoiler +6 3*Probe
9 Pylon
9 3*Probe (chrono nexus after pylon)
12 Chrono Nexus
12 Gateway
12 3*Probe (chrono nexus optional)
15 Assimilator
15 Probe
16 Pylon
16 Cybernetics Core
16 Move Three Probes To Gas
16 Probe
17 Gateway
17 2*Probe
19 Warp Gate Transformation
19 Chrono Cybernetics Core
19 Probe
20 Stalker
22 Chrono Cybernetics Core
22 Assimilator
22 Probe
23 Pylon
23 Stalker
25 Chrono Cybernetics Core
25 Probe
26 Move Three Probes To Gas
26 Gateway
26 Probe
27 Stalker
29 Probe
30 Pylon
30 Chrono Cybernetics Core
30 Sentry
32 Probe
33 Chrono Cybernetics Core
33 Probe
34 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
34 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
34 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
34 Chrono Gateway (one that is behind, optionalish)
34 Move Three Probes To Gas
34 Probe
35 3*Stalker
(pylon needed asap, 1 more probe or 3 more and cut probes until expansion for 30 probes)
5:39.06: 58M 20G 16E 41/ 42S
Income: 706M 228G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 4 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 26 Probe 6 Stalker 1 Sentry
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation ^ it actually turns out you have like 5 minerals at 5:40 because I didn't account for the lost minerals of your 12 scout not mining. However that is negated entirely if you micro your probes quickly and effectively early on with mineral pairing. Small things done well early tend to snowball later on in the game. Of course this requires precise scouting of common meta game areas for proxies and cannon rush after 12 gate, and the build can deviate from there as needed just like any other opener. Safe build that crushes 4 gate if executed properly, doesn't waste too much gas vs a toss cutting all corners, and wastes very few if any minerals while constantly, and I mean constantly making probes. It handles all that early crap you worry about wasting sentry energy on (3 stalkers out micro 2 stalkers and a zealot, especially if you snipe the probe before the ramp pylons go down the rush is over, or abuse high ground/ramp/mobility to come out of initial engagement with so much as one extra unit you've already removed the advantage of that 4th gateway adding 1 extra unit). 3 stalkers are also out quite in time for triple stalker build. I'm not really sure why I'm posting this on here, as I feel it's the one build I've more or less come up with on my own and would really hate to see it used against me but that's ok lol. At least I didn't go out of my way to make a topic about it and draw unwanted attention.
Not sure why you posted this here but um I guess i'll comment on it.
Without having seen replays, I can't be fully sure of what this build looks like. I know of a very similar build that gets an earlier gas than you do but doesn't mine from it and gets one more stalkers than you do. However, it does cut probes. I want to mention that your solution to gas steal is nonsensical. You can't pull probes to kill the gas, because you lose too much mining time.
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Well I mean you can either grab the gas before it gets taken and delay a probe cycle or two, or hope he doesn't take it and if he does lose just a bit of mining time. It's not like it's free for him to place it in the first place. In the end you might lose out on a net of 25/50 minerals, which I usually hold over the other player from mineral worker micro anyhow. This doesn't happen to me very often in pvp either.
There is nothing to stop me from getting 7 stalkers, or 6 stalkers with a zealot, I just get the zealot if I want to be cost effective and not waste gas when I don't feel it's necessary, as I feel the allocation of gas is how you get ahead in utility/composition in pvp.
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I'd like to note that MC still does this opening as his standard. He did some variation of this build in every game versus Mana at the recent IEM Cologne tournament.
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i did this build with perfect timing even sniped 2 stalkers then went back in base and throw down a robo , chronoboost observer > send it into enemy base {wich was air close position} , and he was teching for colossi , actualy the tech was out and even chronoboosting termal lance , what should i do from here ? go blink stalker and fake push into expand ? go colossi myself ?
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United States8476 Posts
On September 05 2011 02:12 xsnac wrote:
i did this build with perfect timing even sniped 2 stalkers then went back in base and throw down a robo , chronoboost observer > send it into enemy base {wich was air close position} , and he was teching for colossi , actualy the tech was out and even chronoboosting termal lance , what should i do from here ? go blink stalker and fake push into expand ? go colossi myself ?
You're basically asking what to do with a standard safe build versus a greedy build. First I advise you to try not to get in this situation. Only do a defensive build versus a player who can possibly do a 4 gate. However, sometimes he tricks you and you lose the build order war, and you just have to play from behind.
Also, you mention that you kill 2 stalkers early. Because you do this, you can afford to tech more greedy. That is, throw down a twilight council or robotic support bay faster than you would normally.
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Would this build be recommended to players below masters??
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Hi again!
Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot
That said, I had a few questions:
1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)?
2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct?
3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF?
4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry?
Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work
P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
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On October 06 2011 11:50 bankai wrote:Hi again! Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry? Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
Hi Monk! Would you mind answering these questions? Trying now to learn the build so would appreciate some help.
btw, congrats on becoming a blue poster...u deserve it
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On October 06 2011 11:50 bankai wrote:Hi again! Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry? Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
1)To shoo the probe away from your ramp and allow map control on your side of the field. 3 stalker opening is scoutable, going zealot/stalker/stalker looks just like a 4 gate but is on the defensive side. The build isn't dependent on denying the proxy, but it obviously helps if you just don't let him take it freely. Pushing back the pylon as far as possible from your ramp allows that 1 chrono to go on the sentry instead of warpgate and allow you to still have 3 warpgates by the time the defensive 4 gate hits.
2)Generally speaking if he's trying to bust your ramp, and you are teching, it makes a bit more sense to just FF him out until your next cycle of units pop out or an immortal finishes. Basically, use your judgement, if you can take him by slicing his army, do so, if not, just stall. The shittier the exchange is for your opponent the more ahead you are, but you at the same time don't want to engage in a fight you can't win.
3)You can't warp in on ramps at all, so use common sense here....
4)If your opponent gas steals you and then 4 gates you anyway, it's likely to be really shitty. If he did not take his gas, just steal it and continue with the build. If you are worried about proxies, just let your zealot attack the gas and move around with your stalkers instead.
gl
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On October 10 2011 10:15 CaptainHaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 11:50 bankai wrote:Hi again! Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry? Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)! 1)To shoo the probe away from your ramp and allow map control on your side of the field. 3 stalker opening is scoutable, going zealot/stalker/stalker looks just like a 4 gate but is on the defensive side. The build isn't dependent on denying the proxy, but it obviously helps if you just don't let him take it freely. Pushing back the pylon as far as possible from your ramp allows that 1 chrono to go on the sentry instead of warpgate and allow you to still have 3 warpgates by the time the defensive 4 gate hits. 2)Generally speaking if he's trying to bust your ramp, and you are teching, it makes a bit more sense to just FF him out until your next cycle of units pop out or an immortal finishes. Basically, use your judgement, if you can take him by slicing his army, do so, if not, just stall. The shittier the exchange is for your opponent the more ahead you are, but you at the same time don't want to engage in a fight you can't win. 3)You can't warp in on ramps at all, so use common sense here.... 4)If your opponent gas steals you and then 4 gates you anyway, it's likely to be really shitty. If he did not take his gas, just steal it and continue with the build. If you are worried about proxies, just let your zealot attack the gas and move around with your stalkers instead. gl
Great, thanks a lot!
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On October 06 2011 11:50 bankai wrote:Hi again! Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry? Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
Hey, sorry for the late response. I was at IPL all weekend, so I didn't really check TL that much.
1. CaptainHaz covered this really well.
2. Yea, that was a bit of a mistake. I mentioned in the replay description that I didn't play perfectly that game but still held it off. So yes, I didn't need to perfectly trap 2 units to defend.
3. Yes, it makes it a lot easier. You can perma forcefield the ramp off if you want. It's probably not as efficient as the method I describe, but it's a lot safer and easier.
4. If you rally your zealot on the gas right away, you can kill it pretty fast. Even if he gas steals you, you have enough gas for the 2nd sentry.
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On October 10 2011 14:53 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 11:50 bankai wrote:Hi again! Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry? Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)! Hey, sorry for the late response. I was at IPL all weekend, so I didn't really check TL that much. 1. CaptainHaz covered this really well. 2. Yea, that was a bit of a mistake. I mentioned in the replay description that I didn't play perfectly that game but still held it off. So yes, I didn't need to perfectly trap 2 units to defend. 3. Yes, it makes it a lot easier. You can perma forcefield the ramp off if you want. It's probably not as efficient as the method I describe, but it's a lot safer and easier. 4. If you rally your zealot on the gas right away, you can kill it pretty fast. Even if he gas steals you, you have enough gas for the 2nd sentry.
Thanks Monk, I think although this build didnt get much attention, it is a very solid way to open (if done right).
Hope you smashed some ppl at IPL
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EPT
