On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote: While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger.
I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons.
Here are MattC's videos of him using this. They aren't against hard 4 gates, but they show the edge you get in tech. + Show Spoiler +
Here is a video GomJabbar made recently going over the build's strengths.
I prefer having a sentry rather than pure zealot/immortal to be safe against hardcore 10 gate 4 gates.
(And don't knock it til you try it; I doubted this would work at first also, hearing from many people that robo was suicide against a 4 gate. When this build was created, it needed 5 more seconds to be safe and it got 20 in Patch 1.3.3.).
I'm sorry but I don't like this build at all (the one in the youtube vid, which seems to be completely different from the one you posted btw).
No stalker means free information in your base up until 5:45 when the immortal pops out. He can feel safe to pump out probes (having 26 at 6:00 when you only have 20 because you have no clue what he is doing and need to prepare 4 gate).
He can also get a stargate and 3 gate + phoenix bust your ramp (got anything that shoots up ?)
Also, I question the fact that this is really safe vs 4 gate. The probe in your base will scout that you have no stalker, therefore no way to deny the first two proxy pylons at your ramp. From there, You just have to warp in 4 zealots (instead of 4 stalkers). I'd love to see you hold 5 zealots + 2 stalkers with one immortal and 3 zealots.
Also, I hate it that everyone i disagree with is on the NA server and can't play against me
Fair enough.
As far as the differences in the builds, I just found as much information I could about the build and included variations to show how people adapted with it.
I agree with you about the lack of a stalker, which is why I prefer to make one before my sentry. Regarding the probe count, I usually stop at 24, which is more than most protosses stop at, so I feel pretty comfortable in that regard.
Yes, stargate builds are pretty good against this (although if you scout it, you can produce stalkers constantly out of your gates and you have about a 40% chance with decent micro. Although I don't see many people go for the stargate to be honest.
I said I prefer the sentry (or two) instead of the zealots because of the threat of a zealot heavy 4 gate, I agree with you on that one too actually. Idk why people like pure zealot immortal, but some people are succeeding with it.
On July 28 2011 16:13 Darclite wrote: While I feel this is good, I feel like if you want an opener that is strong against a 4 gate and puts you ahead in tech, 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo w/ faster colossi is stronger.
I don't get what you're trying to say here. In what ways is it stronger? You can't just randomly pull out a build and say it's better without giving any reasons.
I have been using a 1 gate robo recently in PvP (learned it from the top master streamer I watch who uses it and has like a 65% win rate in PvP). Also used the strategy compilation thread ([G] Basic Openings) and the guide kcdc wrote up.
I go for roughly 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 18 gas 20 lot 22 wg (w/ 4 chronos) 24 stalker 26 sentry 28 robo (at about 4:45) second gate at 5:05 one more sentry have an immortal out (chronoed) by roughly 6 minutes a second one by 6:45ish, then go for a relatively balanced composition of zealots, stalkers, and sentries until I repel the 4 gate, then since I am ahead on tech (he went for a 4 gate and I have robo tech), I can get colossi faster and usually have either an extra colossus or two in a later engagement, a faster expansion, or range.
An alternative build order off of 1 gas is kcdc's build: 9 pylon (1st chronoboost on 11th probe) 13 gate (scout with probe that builds gateway) 13 gas (will have to cut probe production for about 1 second here. chronoboost immediately after starting next probe) 15 pylon core @ 100% gate zealot @100 minerals stalker and warpgate research @ 100% core (chronoboost both gateway and core at this point. this allows you to get your stalker earlier to deny scouting and makes it look like a 4 gate) robo ASAP when you can deny scouting (chrono the stalker out and start the robo out of the probe's vision if it stays in your base to be hunted down by your stalker. you need an immortal by 6 minutes and there aren't many seconds to spare) pylon robo @ or before 100% stalker (see above regarding timing) zealot @ 100 minerals 2nd gateway pylon immortal zealot @100% warpgate research, 2 more zealots and another immortal
Here are MattC's videos of him using this. They aren't against hard 4 gates, but they show the edge you get in tech. + Show Spoiler +
Here is a video of Axslav going 2 gate robo, but with 2 gates before robo. I haven't tried it and it's a strange game, but if Axslav is doing it it probably has some merit. + Show Spoiler +
This is a variation using 3 gate robo and more stalkers used by Nightend to defeat Naniwa, who went for blink stalkers. Nice way to adapt if you discover you are not being 4 gated. + Show Spoiler +
I prefer having a sentry rather than pure zealot/immortal to be safe against hardcore 10 gate 4 gates.
(And don't knock it til you try it; I doubted this would work at first also, hearing from many people that robo was suicide against a 4 gate. When this build was created, it needed 5 more seconds to be safe and it got 20 in Patch 1.3.3.).
What I find strong about this build:
With good micro, this can hold a 4 gate. You need to place force fields in the right place at the right time, cutting off units at your ramp and killing them with zealots and immortals. But after some practice, it feels pretty natural. Also, it is nice to take down proxy pylons in 3 seconds with a pair of immortals.
Blink transitions: You have immortals and colossi. He needs to perform some godlike micro and you need to slip up for him to win.
DT builds. You have a robo. Chrono out an observer and his push is powerless.
Robo transitions: You have a faster robo and robo bay. Unless you slip up, you win
Defensive 4 gate: You just teched faster than he did; you should win
Defensive 3 gate: While he may have a few more probes, tech defines PvP moreso than economy does. Your edge in tech outweighs his extra 2-4 probes. This is where I find the edge I mentioned. You want to gain a tiny advantage in PvP through either economy or tech, both require decent micro (the 3 gate arguably requires more), both are not all in, but while the 3 gate gets you a few extra probes, the 1 gate robo puts you farther ahead on tech.
Maps: The only map this is very weak on in the new map pool is Tal'Darim Altar. It was weakest on Scrap Station but it was removed. It was also tricky on Delta Quadrant because of backdoor warp ins, but that was removed as well.
Tyler has also been using a similar build with a 10 gate opening into robo. Day9 did a daily about it. http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-liquid-tyler-s-pvp-5283767 It is aimed to be even safer. You get your robo at about the 4 minute mark and have faster immortals (1 already out when the 4 gate hits, the second going to pop within ten seconds).
Sorry for not going into so much depth in my first post. I thought 1 gate robo was more of a well known strategy for PvP.
The first build you mention will not hold a 4 gate. You cannot stop him from plyoning the bottom of your ramp and you must waste a ff in order to stop the first zealot/stalker from going up your ramp.
The second build you mention is kcdc's build, which kcdc himself says isn't completely safe vs a well executed 4 gate.
While I don't doubt there may be 1 gate robo builds that can hold off 4 gates, these aren't it.
Also your argument seems to be that tech should be the most important thing that matters in holding off a 4 gate. You don't weigh the advantages of my build which are clearly listed in my guide. The 3 that stick out are a 6 probe advantage, the threat of a 4 gate coming from you, and freedom to tech to anything after the initial build.
On July 28 2011 18:24 cainine wrote: Hey, with your first round of warp in, (from the initial gate) why do you choose to warp sentry instead of a stalker when you have a sentry at the ramp? Is it just for precaution?
This is a very good point. The first 3 warpins from your gateways are actually interchangeable. You can go either sentry stalker stalker or stalker sentry stalker. In the guide, I put sentry as the first unit because that's the way MC does it. The way I see it there's 2 advantages of going stalker first. You get a bit more dps and if for some reason you can rule out 4 gate within 10 seconds, you don't have to get the 2nd sentry. If you get sentry first, you get more energy for that sentry. In the end it's a preference thing.
I don't see how this would be the case. If your units are killing the stolen gas, how do you stop a probe from walking into your base and making a pylon?
On August 01 2011 23:05 iamke55 wrote: "Does not care as much if your gas gets stolen."
I don't see how this would be the case. If your units are killing the stolen gas, how do you stop a probe from walking into your base and making a pylon?
I believe you kill the gas before a probe can build a pylon in your base and safely defend it.
On August 12 2011 16:06 chipman wrote: I have my own way of doing things. Using scfusion or whatnot I plugged in a bunch of checkpoints using existing timings and came up with my own 3 gate defense of 4gate a month or so ago, I still use it now. It opens up similar to the triple stalker build, in the way it feels, but not really. Here's how it goes.
If gas is stolen, no big deal. Suggest the pulling of a couple probes to help dps it down and free up stalker. Better than a build order loss to be 50 minerals lower, I mean the assimilator costs more anyways...
^ it actually turns out you have like 5 minerals at 5:40 because I didn't account for the lost minerals of your 12 scout not mining. However that is negated entirely if you micro your probes quickly and effectively early on with mineral pairing. Small things done well early tend to snowball later on in the game.
Of course this requires precise scouting of common meta game areas for proxies and cannon rush after 12 gate, and the build can deviate from there as needed just like any other opener. Safe build that crushes 4 gate if executed properly, doesn't waste too much gas vs a toss cutting all corners, and wastes very few if any minerals while constantly, and I mean constantly making probes.
It handles all that early crap you worry about wasting sentry energy on (3 stalkers out micro 2 stalkers and a zealot, especially if you snipe the probe before the ramp pylons go down the rush is over, or abuse high ground/ramp/mobility to come out of initial engagement with so much as one extra unit you've already removed the advantage of that 4th gateway adding 1 extra unit). 3 stalkers are also out quite in time for triple stalker build.
I'm not really sure why I'm posting this on here, as I feel it's the one build I've more or less come up with on my own and would really hate to see it used against me but that's ok lol. At least I didn't go out of my way to make a topic about it and draw unwanted attention.
Not sure why you posted this here but um I guess i'll comment on it. Without having seen replays, I can't be fully sure of what this build looks like. I know of a very similar build that gets an earlier gas than you do but doesn't mine from it and gets one more stalkers than you do. However, it does cut probes. I want to mention that your solution to gas steal is nonsensical. You can't pull probes to kill the gas, because you lose too much mining time.
Well I mean you can either grab the gas before it gets taken and delay a probe cycle or two, or hope he doesn't take it and if he does lose just a bit of mining time. It's not like it's free for him to place it in the first place. In the end you might lose out on a net of 25/50 minerals, which I usually hold over the other player from mineral worker micro anyhow. This doesn't happen to me very often in pvp either.
There is nothing to stop me from getting 7 stalkers, or 6 stalkers with a zealot, I just get the zealot if I want to be cost effective and not waste gas when I don't feel it's necessary, as I feel the allocation of gas is how you get ahead in utility/composition in pvp.
I'd like to note that MC still does this opening as his standard. He did some variation of this build in every game versus Mana at the recent IEM Cologne tournament.
i did this build with perfect timing even sniped 2 stalkers then went back in base and throw down a robo , chronoboost observer > send it into enemy base {wich was air close position} , and he was teching for colossi , actualy the tech was out and even chronoboosting termal lance , what should i do from here ? go blink stalker and fake push into expand ? go colossi myself ?
On September 05 2011 02:12 xsnac wrote: i did this build with perfect timing even sniped 2 stalkers then went back in base and throw down a robo , chronoboost observer > send it into enemy base {wich was air close position} , and he was teching for colossi , actualy the tech was out and even chronoboosting termal lance , what should i do from here ? go blink stalker and fake push into expand ? go colossi myself ?
You're basically asking what to do with a standard safe build versus a greedy build. First I advise you to try not to get in this situation. Only do a defensive build versus a player who can possibly do a 4 gate. However, sometimes he tricks you and you lose the build order war, and you just have to play from behind.
Also, you mention that you kill 2 stalkers early. Because you do this, you can afford to tech more greedy. That is, throw down a twilight council or robotic support bay faster than you would normally.
Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot
That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry?
Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work
P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot
That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry?
Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work
P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
Hi Monk! Would you mind answering these questions? Trying now to learn the build so would appreciate some help.
btw, congrats on becoming a blue poster...u deserve it
Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot
That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry?
Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work
P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
1)To shoo the probe away from your ramp and allow map control on your side of the field. 3 stalker opening is scoutable, going zealot/stalker/stalker looks just like a 4 gate but is on the defensive side. The build isn't dependent on denying the proxy, but it obviously helps if you just don't let him take it freely. Pushing back the pylon as far as possible from your ramp allows that 1 chrono to go on the sentry instead of warpgate and allow you to still have 3 warpgates by the time the defensive 4 gate hits. 2)Generally speaking if he's trying to bust your ramp, and you are teching, it makes a bit more sense to just FF him out until your next cycle of units pop out or an immortal finishes. Basically, use your judgement, if you can take him by slicing his army, do so, if not, just stall. The shittier the exchange is for your opponent the more ahead you are, but you at the same time don't want to engage in a fight you can't win. 3)You can't warp in on ramps at all, so use common sense here.... 4)If your opponent gas steals you and then 4 gates you anyway, it's likely to be really shitty. If he did not take his gas, just steal it and continue with the build. If you are worried about proxies, just let your zealot attack the gas and move around with your stalkers instead.
Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot
That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry?
Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work
P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
1)To shoo the probe away from your ramp and allow map control on your side of the field. 3 stalker opening is scoutable, going zealot/stalker/stalker looks just like a 4 gate but is on the defensive side. The build isn't dependent on denying the proxy, but it obviously helps if you just don't let him take it freely. Pushing back the pylon as far as possible from your ramp allows that 1 chrono to go on the sentry instead of warpgate and allow you to still have 3 warpgates by the time the defensive 4 gate hits. 2)Generally speaking if he's trying to bust your ramp, and you are teching, it makes a bit more sense to just FF him out until your next cycle of units pop out or an immortal finishes. Basically, use your judgement, if you can take him by slicing his army, do so, if not, just stall. The shittier the exchange is for your opponent the more ahead you are, but you at the same time don't want to engage in a fight you can't win. 3)You can't warp in on ramps at all, so use common sense here.... 4)If your opponent gas steals you and then 4 gates you anyway, it's likely to be really shitty. If he did not take his gas, just steal it and continue with the build. If you are worried about proxies, just let your zealot attack the gas and move around with your stalkers instead.
Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot
That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry?
Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work
P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
Hey, sorry for the late response. I was at IPL all weekend, so I didn't really check TL that much.
1. CaptainHaz covered this really well. 2. Yea, that was a bit of a mistake. I mentioned in the replay description that I didn't play perfectly that game but still held it off. So yes, I didn't need to perfectly trap 2 units to defend. 3. Yes, it makes it a lot easier. You can perma forcefield the ramp off if you want. It's probably not as efficient as the method I describe, but it's a lot safer and easier. 4. If you rally your zealot on the gas right away, you can kill it pretty fast. Even if he gas steals you, you have enough gas for the 2nd sentry.
Im keen to learn this build - although its hard (and i know u advise this for only high masters+ players and im only plat), i think learning this build will force me to learn alot
That said, I had a few questions: 1) Can I clarify what is the purpose of your first 3 units? Is it basically to prevent a 4gater's proxy pylons being setup at the bottom of my ramp and/or around my base? If this is the case, isnt this the same objective as a 3stalker opening that tries to delay proxy pylons (and therefore this build is also dependant on denying the proxy pylon)? 2) You mention that one big difficulty of this build in perfect FF (e.g. trapping 2units instead of 3-4). I watched your replay "defense vs 4gate into long game" and you just FF them out completely like 3 times (killing 1 of his stalkers in the process) and managed to fend him off. In other words, u didnt need to perfectly trap 2units to successfully defend - is that correct? 3) Does the ramp vision change in patch1.4 make this build easier? I,e. harder for 4gates to warp over FF? 4) Related to Q1 - if opponent gas steals u, then if your units are busy attacking the gas, then will they have time to go around and delay proxies? Also, will you have enough gas by the time you need the 2nd sentry?
Thanks! I hope to be the first plat player to make this work
P.S. Geiko's build looks great too, but this one looks more rewarding (if done right)!
Hey, sorry for the late response. I was at IPL all weekend, so I didn't really check TL that much.
1. CaptainHaz covered this really well. 2. Yea, that was a bit of a mistake. I mentioned in the replay description that I didn't play perfectly that game but still held it off. So yes, I didn't need to perfectly trap 2 units to defend. 3. Yes, it makes it a lot easier. You can perma forcefield the ramp off if you want. It's probably not as efficient as the method I describe, but it's a lot safer and easier. 4. If you rally your zealot on the gas right away, you can kill it pretty fast. Even if he gas steals you, you have enough gas for the 2nd sentry.
Thanks Monk, I think although this build didnt get much attention, it is a very solid way to open (if done right).
EPT
, thanks. Just tried this out, looks very good
