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On May 04 2011 04:19 noobinator wrote:Using my version of the bo, I had 1 rine 1 rauder and 1 ghost by the time the first attack of ~10 rines came. It worked like a charm, but I couldn't harass him at ALL until I got cloak. There were simply too many targets to snipe, as well as the bunkers which I obviously can't snipe. If I tried to nuke the bunkers, my opponent would've just ran up and killed the Ghost. I eventually lost from being overpowered by the sheer number of rax he had because I tried to go for bio instead of tanks. Imo if your opponent got tanks before you, go for bio or air. If your opponent doesn't have any tanks yet, get tanks (except against 2port banshees or iechoic's bo, you need vikings early to handle them if you don't end the game quickly enough). Also, I forgot to save the replay, so the autosave got deleted 
Yeah--Turn on the autosave for your games, at the very most, you can always go back and delete some. I've had to go back a few weeks sometimes to find a replay I thought I renamed.
Not being able to nuke the bunker though? How many guys did he have at his ramp wall? If it's just the bunker, you should be able to snipe everything that comes out with the other Ghost. You should have at least a small force to go with it, so there shouldn't be any problem (I guess here is where the replay would have been handy).
I don't usually like getting Ghost Cloak until way later, because I feel I have to play catch up with regular units first, and it seems like a heavy investment, where I could have gotten a starport, unit upgrade (usually stim) or something.
The great thing about the nukes vs tanks--you can still have your own tanks, and you don't have to worry about the stalemate that tank vs tank usually prescribes.
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Well, he had 10 Marines when I had 1 rine 1 rauder and 1 ghost... which probably means he had 30 Rines so he could just flat out anhillate my army. I think he had stim by then, too.
Against this my suggestion is to turtle while securing your nat by using tanks. I learned it the hard way.
Btw, I found a different version of this bo (posted by you) on sc2builds. Care to explain the differences between the bo posted there and the bo posted here?
In case you don't remember what I'm talking about, this is it:
+ Show Spoiler +TvT Ghost Nuke Push - TvT
By: cfestival | Credit: cfestival
Last update: 4/16/2011
TvT Ghost Nuke Push
01. S:10 - Supply Depot (send building SCV to scout)
02. S:12 - Barracks
03. S:13 - Refinery
04. S:15 - Orbital Command
05. S:15 - Marine (Send to ramp)
06. S:16 - Ghost Academy
07. S:16 - Marine (send to ramp)
08. S:17 - Refinery
09. S:18 - Supply Depot
10. S:18 - Tech Lab (Barracks)
11. S:19 - Barracks
12. S:20 - Ghost
13. S:23 - Supply Depot
14. S:24 - Ghost
15. S:26 - Tech Lab (Barracks)
16. S:27 - Factory
17. S:28 - Marauder
18. S:30 - Supply Depot
19. S:30 - Marauder (when this marauder finishes, GO!!!)
20. S:33 - Hellion (Make NUKE at same time)
21. S:35 - Supply Depot
22. S:35 - Reaper (Can use these to harass, or part of reg army)
23. S:36 - Reaper
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I have been really interested in ghost play and want to incorporate it into everyone of my match ups however I find it really difficult to use ghosts effectively against other Terrans. Other than nuking Siege tank lines to force an unsiege and quickly engage (while canceling the nuke) I cannot think of other uses.
What are the uses of ghosts in TvT and when is an effective time to transition to them (so that Ghosts which are extremely gas intensive does not cripple the terrans economy or tech)?
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On May 05 2011 08:29 noobinator wrote:Well, he had 10 Marines when I had 1 rine 1 rauder and 1 ghost... which probably means he had 30 Rines so he could just flat out anhillate my army. I think he had stim by then, too. Against this my suggestion is to turtle while securing your nat by using tanks. I learned it the hard way. Btw, I found a different version of this bo (posted by you) on sc2builds. Care to explain the differences between the bo posted there and the bo posted here? In case you don't remember what I'm talking about, this is it: + Show Spoiler +TvT Ghost Nuke Push - TvT
By: cfestival | Credit: cfestival
Last update: 4/16/2011
TvT Ghost Nuke Push
01. S:10 - Supply Depot (send building SCV to scout)
02. S:12 - Barracks
03. S:13 - Refinery
04. S:15 - Orbital Command
05. S:15 - Marine (Send to ramp)
06. S:16 - Ghost Academy
07. S:16 - Marine (send to ramp)
08. S:17 - Refinery
09. S:18 - Supply Depot
10. S:18 - Tech Lab (Barracks)
11. S:19 - Barracks
12. S:20 - Ghost
13. S:23 - Supply Depot
14. S:24 - Ghost
15. S:26 - Tech Lab (Barracks)
16. S:27 - Factory
17. S:28 - Marauder
18. S:30 - Supply Depot
19. S:30 - Marauder (when this marauder finishes, GO!!!)
20. S:33 - Hellion (Make NUKE at same time)
21. S:35 - Supply Depot
22. S:35 - Reaper (Can use these to harass, or part of reg army)
23. S:36 - Reaper
Yeah---I haven't changed the one on the sc2builds site yet. I was pissed cause they didn't have "nuke" as one of the options.
That build was "pre-optimized" to getting the Ghosts out, but the flow of units and such seemed easier (at the time at least). The difference is the gas timing--I found it's better to just make it first.
The build I have here (on the TL site) gets the nuke out like 30-40 seconds faster, as well as the other units.
--about the game you played, if there's a buildup, you should be able to have more Ghosts. The key to attacking a marine only army is to get in there, snipe everything, and nuke his supply really quick; if there's a lot of back and forth, you'll eventually be overwhelmed because you'll run out of snipe, and he'll keep making units. Make another replay, and we'll try to see what's going on in your games. You should be able to handle anything he has at the time the nuke is ready.
On May 05 2011 10:16 TG_CryMeAReaver wrote:
I have been really interested in ghost play and want to incorporate it into everyone of my match ups however I find it really difficult to use ghosts effectively against other Terrans. Other than nuking Siege tank lines to force an unsiege and quickly engage (while canceling the nuke) I cannot think of other uses.
What are the uses of ghosts in TvT and when is an effective time to transition to them (so that Ghosts which are extremely gas intensive does not cripple the terrans economy or tech)?
SNIPE - one shots marines (without combat shields)
EMP - decloaks Banshees
Regular attack - pwns light units, like Hellions & Reapers
Nuke - you don't have to just nuke and cancel....pick a good target (buildings), and let it come down. Do this with your army, and he won't be able to stop it (rather than just trying to ninja nuke).
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On May 06 2011 15:09 NagatoYuki wrote:You sir, are a HERO. This push works Ridiculously Magnificent in TvT. Here's two replays of me executing this build. ( Diamond Level Play ) - TvT Nuke Opening #1 - TvT Nuke Opening #2
Nice!!!
I uploaded the replays in the bonus section.
I like that bunker for vs Banshees--I guess that is a pretty good option for early defense. When attacking now, I sometimes take a few scvs for a little more fodder, and to throw up some turrets while attacking (if there's Banshee play).
I also like how you were able to shut down the early pressure pretty well in that first game.
I'm glad this is working for you. 
------------------------------
edit:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/173408-2v2-terran-protoss-zerg-discord-iv
this here is a 2v2 replay of the Ghost Nuke (diamond level opponents, vs me and a bronzie pick up) The enemies were from a clan, and obviously had a plan going into the game. On the other hand, i had the hardest time with my ally even giving me control (all the games we've played), and he was slow, which slowed down the Ghost nuke....turning it into a defensive game. We got contained hard, and had to figure out a way to bust it.
This is an entertaining game
...it also shows why you shouldn't bunch up your buildings, even if you're winning.
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hi after i saw your replay
on xelnaga
i noticed one thing
if the enemy scout with scan that you built ghost
and that alone is in your advantage
because when he saw it
he thought "oh my god cloack ghost with nuke better i make countermeasues!!!!"
so he built rocket tower or in your case a raven
that means he waste money because your scared him
and you did actually nothing at all !!!!
because he built a raven he could not affort siege mode uppgrade
but even if he had siege mode you cast the nuke outside his sight range
thank you for this built i am really sick of that boring 50 min marine tank viking lame
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@ perser84
hey---the newest patch sorta screwed up the build.....
I'm in the process of fixing it again.
--and yes, you're correct. so many times have players thrown up detection, while I haven't gotten cloak.....but with that said, there's a surplus of gas with the new patch.....might make cloak more viable....or more nukes.
I've developed a ghost - marine build from this, where basically you don't build the factory initially, and do a ghost/marine first. it crushes bio, but dies to siege, if you take too long. I gotta refine that too....but if you scout rax building, i mean, you'll probably be expecting a mm push, right?
*I'm working on both builds now btw---they're separate (for clarification).
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Yes, The patch actually ruined my almost perfected ghost timing but i think delaying second gas fixes this problem. i delay my second gas till halfway my first ghost is being built OR only put 4-5 SCV's in the vespene geysers.
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On May 11 2011 16:37 NagatoYuki wrote:Yes, The patch actually ruined my almost perfected ghost timing but i think delaying second gas fixes this problem. i delay my second gas till halfway my first ghost is being built OR only put 4-5 SCV's in the vespene geysers.
I agree with this solution. Other than a delayed 2nd gas the bo should be just about unchanged, except additional Ghosts after the push will be much more accessible.
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@cfestival
pls concentrate first on your anti tank marine bo
because its the most comon built
and most hated
well its true that cloack is viable but
on your strentgh of your built is to strike hard and fast before he can built something decent up
and with no cloack at first you certainly confuse him
i like it more to do the nuke stuff kill rax and something else and if it fails to finish him
i can still safetly expand
i dont know if it helps but i think ghost opener delays shees harras
after my enemy scan me and saw i had 2 ghost already he attacked me with 3 shees intead of one and his timing was the same when i cast the nuke
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I put in this composition into Build Order Tester and it spit out a faster timing of 6:41
Obviously this build tester is ideal, so I would add 20 seconds and we're at about 7:00 which is 30 seconds sooner than the original.
The only unintuitive things are the supply drop and 19 orbital but it looks like a faster way of deploying the build. Enjoy, anyone can borrow the build order or edit the one I have below.
Bye.
+ Show Spoiler +10 Supply Depot
11 Refinery
13 Move SCV To Gas
14 Move SCV To Gas
14 Move SCV To Gas
15 Barracks (Naked)
18 Barracks Tech Lab
18 Supply Depot
19 Barracks (Naked)
19 Orbital Command
19 Refinery
19 Reaper
20 Ghost Academy
20 Move SCV To Gas
21 Calldown MULE
21 Move SCV To Gas
21 Barracks Tech Lab
21 Reaper
22 Move SCV To Gas
23 Factory (Naked)
23 Marine
24 Supply Depot
26 Marine
27 Ghost
30 Marauder
32 Arm Nuke
33 Calldown Extra Supplies
34 Ghost
36 Move SCV To Minerals
36 Hellion
38 Move SCV To Minerals
38 Marauder
40 Move SCV To Gas
40 Move SCV To Gas
42 Move SCV To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:41.10: 298M 108G 30E 42/ 43S
Income: 808M 228G
Buildings: 2 Refinery 2 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Ghost Academy 1 Factory 2 Tech Lab
Units: 27 SCV 2 Marine 2 Marauder 2 Reaper 2 Ghost 1 Hellion
Research:
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On May 12 2011 03:31 0neDose wrote:I put in this composition into Build Order Tester and it spit out a faster timing of 6:41 Obviously this build tester is ideal, so I would add 20 seconds and we're at about 7:00 which is 30 seconds sooner than the original. The only unintuitive things are the supply drop and 19 orbital but it looks like a faster way of deploying the build. Enjoy, anyone can borrow the build order or edit the one I have below. Bye. + Show Spoiler +10 Supply Depot
11 Refinery
13 Move SCV To Gas
14 Move SCV To Gas
14 Move SCV To Gas
15 Barracks (Naked)
18 Barracks Tech Lab
18 Supply Depot
19 Barracks (Naked)
19 Orbital Command
19 Refinery
19 Reaper
20 Ghost Academy
20 Move SCV To Gas
21 Calldown MULE
21 Move SCV To Gas
21 Barracks Tech Lab
21 Reaper
22 Move SCV To Gas
23 Factory (Naked)
23 Marine
24 Supply Depot
26 Marine
27 Ghost
30 Marauder
32 Arm Nuke
33 Calldown Extra Supplies
34 Ghost
36 Move SCV To Minerals
36 Hellion
38 Move SCV To Minerals
38 Marauder
40 Move SCV To Gas
40 Move SCV To Gas
42 Move SCV To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:41.10: 298M 108G 30E 42/ 43S
Income: 808M 228G
Buildings: 2 Refinery 2 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Ghost Academy 1 Factory 2 Tech Lab
Units: 27 SCV 2 Marine 2 Marauder 2 Reaper 2 Ghost 1 Hellion
Research:
Nonononono
The point of the original bo is to get a shitload of energy on your 2 Ghosts by getting them asap. In this "ideal" bo, You pretty much get your Ghosts last. That minimizes the amount of MM you can take out with your Ghosts, greatly minimizing the effectiveness of the bo.
Besides, the BO optimizer isn't up to date with patch 1.3.3. It thinks Ghosts still cost 150/150 instead of 200/100.
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On May 12 2011 00:56 perser84 wrote:
pls concentrate first on your anti tank marine bo
The build is pretty good still vs marine tank....cause you can snipe all the marines, and all that's left is the tank(s).
You can go a lil heavier on marauders on the next push, and that should help clean up the tanks.
I like getting starport + rax now, instead of 2 rax afterwards....giving you 3 rax, 1 fac, 1 star....and nukes.
On May 11 2011 20:26 noobinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 16:37 NagatoYuki wrote:Yes, The patch actually ruined my almost perfected ghost timing but i think delaying second gas fixes this problem. i delay my second gas till halfway my first ghost is being built OR only put 4-5 SCV's in the vespene geysers. I agree with this solution. Other than a delayed 2nd gas the bo should be just about unchanged, except additional Ghosts after the push will be much more accessible.
actually...more nukes become accessible, because you start to get a surplus of gas.
(or the transition to starport became easier)
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Can this build be translated to the other matchups?
I've tried it in TvP with some success, as the P player needs to build close to their Pylons (which puts alot of buildings in close proximity to each other). Also, the unit composition of the initial push is really good against Gateway units, especially Ghosts with Snipe vs Sentries.
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On May 12 2011 08:11 AngryBear wrote:
Can this build be translated to the other matchups?
I've tried it in TvP with some success, as the P player needs to build close to their Pylons (which puts alot of buildings in close proximity to each other). Also, the unit composition of the initial push is really good against Gateway units, especially Ghosts with Snipe vs Sentries.
Imo TvP would be the worst matchup for this bo because of the huge variety of cheese that Toss can use against you.
Void Ray rush will completely anhillate this. The only AA you have in the first push is 2 marines.
DT rush will destroy this if you don't save up scans. You simply cannot afford to get an E-Bay in the middle of this bo.
I don't think this would fare well against 4gate either, even after the nerf.
EDIT: What does the website say about how many views this thread has!?
+ Show Spoiler +I hope you didn't look in this spoiler box looking for a meme, cause they aren't allowed here
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true vs toss its not good anymore
dt its not the problem since you have early emp but
the problem are voidrays if you have the micro you could deal at least with one voidray if there is no support
2 marine 2 ghost could manage it
but like you said
its too risky vs toss
since the cost change of ghost
btw i built 2nd gas on 21/22
well from my experiece you crush early medivac bio
and the cast range of nuke is even bigger then the range of siege tank lol
maybe not interresting for this built but you could with a pure bio built beat marine tanks since you force him to unsiege
in the moment he does you can attack him and aport nuke once you are on range of fire
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On May 12 2011 08:39 noobinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 08:11 AngryBear wrote:
Can this build be translated to the other matchups?
I've tried it in TvP with some success, as the P player needs to build close to their Pylons (which puts alot of buildings in close proximity to each other). Also, the unit composition of the initial push is really good against Gateway units, especially Ghosts with Snipe vs Sentries. Imo TvP would be the worst matchup for this bo because of the huge variety of cheese that Toss can use against you. Void Ray rush will completely anhillate this. The only AA you have in the first push is 2 marines. DT rush will destroy this if you don't save up scans. You simply cannot afford to get an E-Bay in the middle of this bo. I don't think this would fare well against 4gate either, even after the nerf. EDIT: What does the website say about how many views this thread has!? + Show Spoiler +I hope you didn't look in this spoiler box looking for a meme, cause they aren't allowed here
it probably isnt good vs P, yeah, but fyi u still have 2 ghosts and 2 marines for AA and like previous poster said energy from 1 orbital and 2 emps should hold u nicely against DT rush. its actually like an anti-DT rush build more than anything! xD
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Well at least you didn't name this build after yourself
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On May 12 2011 11:38 policymaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 08:39 noobinator wrote:On May 12 2011 08:11 AngryBear wrote:
Can this build be translated to the other matchups?
I've tried it in TvP with some success, as the P player needs to build close to their Pylons (which puts alot of buildings in close proximity to each other). Also, the unit composition of the initial push is really good against Gateway units, especially Ghosts with Snipe vs Sentries. Imo TvP would be the worst matchup for this bo because of the huge variety of cheese that Toss can use against you. Void Ray rush will completely anhillate this. The only AA you have in the first push is 2 marines. DT rush will destroy this if you don't save up scans. You simply cannot afford to get an E-Bay in the middle of this bo. I don't think this would fare well against 4gate either, even after the nerf. EDIT: What does the website say about how many views this thread has!? + Show Spoiler +I hope you didn't look in this spoiler box looking for a meme, cause they aren't allowed here it probably isnt good vs P, yeah, but fyi u still have 2 ghosts and 2 marines for AA and like previous poster said energy from 1 orbital and 2 emps should hold u nicely against DT rush. its actually like an anti-DT rush build more than anything! xD
2 Ghosts and 2 Marines can't hold off multiple void rays in hell. With Gateway support, they're pretty much invincible.
The point of using this in TvT is because marines are 1-shotted by snipe and marauders are 3-shotted. Zealots? They take 4 shots. Sentries? Stalkers? They can't be sniped. Even though you have EMP, EMP can't actually kill any unit in the game. They can get rid of the unit's function in some cases, but they can't actually kill it.
Also, an economic/non-all-in DT rush won't have the DTs destroying you. You just can't waste 75 energy on your Ghost, sometimes even 125 energy wasted if you miss an EMP. Every EMP wasted is 100 more shields for pretty much every toss unit youre going up against when you push.
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EPT
