[G] Cfestival's Ghost Nuke Push

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cfestival

United States32 Posts

April 30 2011 04:20 GMT

[G] Cfestival's Ghost Nuke Push [image loading]

**(Bonus: 5-min Team Nuke Build in Team Section)

TvT build

- - - last updated: 19 May 2011 - - -

WILL REWORK FOR CURRENT PATCH....partial fix--only have 4-ish workers on gas.....will rework timings. - 10 MAY 2011 - cfestival

change log + Show Spoiler +

01 May 2011 - added change log, minor edits, and added another replay in Replays Section.

02 May 2011 - added replay to Vs Cheese Section.
added replay to Team Section
added BONUS section

06 May 2011 - added replays from Nagato 1 & 2 into Bonus Replays Section.
added replay to the Teams section.

10 May 2011 - added message to rework for current patch

12 May 2011 - Changed Bonus "Nuke Replays" to "User Nuke Replays"
added Crytch replay to User Nuke Replays Section
added Replay 1 and Replay 2 to the Teams Section

19 May 2011 - added user Replay 1 & 2
added Zerg infestor info to Tips and Tricks

BONUS: User Nuke Replays + Show Spoiler +

I wanted to add a section up here for YOUR ghost nuke, or just general epic nuke replays. Just reply to the thread, with a small description (XvX, map, time, description), and I'll add it up here.

(Sample) TvT, Shakuras Plateau, 31 Mins, Nuke attacks (not ghost nuke build) vs Tank bio
Nagato TvT, Delta Quadrant, 26 mins, early pressure vs Ghost Nuke to air, Diamond
Nagato TvT, Delta Quadrant, 10 mins, marine banshee vs Ghost Nuke dominance, Diamond
Crytch TvT, Shakuras, 10 mins, Ghost Nuke vs FE marine Masters
Canox TvT, Typhon Peaks, 9 mins, Ghost Nuke vs early aggro Plat
Canox TvT, Shattered Temple, 8 mins, Ghost nuke vs marine medivac misclick Plat

*** = User submitted
*** = League

INTRO
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Hi, I'm cfestival, and I've been playing Starcraft since the beginning of Starcraft 1. I was ranked mid-ish Diamond 1v1 Random last season (High Diamond 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 Teams), but am currently going up and down the 1v1 ladders (aka "smurfing") to see what's out there, and testing new builds. I know some might knock me for doing so, but it's fun, and I'm just all about having fun....which is why I created this build.

I currently still play Random 1v1, and have a Masters in team play. I hope you enjoy this build!

I came into creating this build based off a general wanting to use Ghosts in my play more. It's hard as a random player to get really good at one race, not to mention just one matchup (TvT). TvT by far has been one of my most dreaded matchups, and I wanted something that was beyond Tank-Viking, Tank-Marine, MMM, and the like....and the iEchoic build usually meant I had to play a long game.

Now, I have something that works, works well, and is really a lot more fun, not to mention doesn't make you have to mine out the map with huge tank lines spread across the map, or force your TvT into the mid-late game.

OVERVIEW
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This is a quick nuke build for TvT.

This build is especially for those who play R(t)vT, because of the ramp wall that Terrans like to do vs Random players. Though not all is lost if there's no ramp wall. It's just the ramp wall bust is the most fun way to gain access to the base and wreck it.

I made it so I could nuke quickly, but still have enough gusto to continue if it doesn't go off.

The basic build is you get 2 marines, 2 ghosts, 2 marauders, 2 reapers, 1 hellion and 1 nuke. The timing is a 6:30 nuke start (7:30 finished), and fun times to follow.

2 Marines

2 Ghosts

2 Marauders

2 Reapers

1 Hellion

1 Nuke

The main focus is to throw your opponent off balance, then continue on, if you haven't won the game already.

You will then continue the game regularly...but with nukes. This is really useful like when you're assaulting, and find yourself against a line of tanks.

FUN CAST (with build essence)
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This was casted on "When Cheese Fails" on April 21, 2011.

Though this is a TvP matchup (this build is for TvT), it's just fun to watch. I did this test to see if it's possible to use the build on other races.

Generally, this build is not for TvP or TvZ....at least the rush timing of it. It can be tweaked a little, but the variables are much greater than just TvT.

The build is a little off because I change it to go a faster nuke, but you get to see a little play of why the different units are helpful.

BUILD ORDER
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I wanted a fast nuke. I know you can get the nuke out a little faster by skipping the second barracks, but I really enjoy the mix of units that the barracks gives, and it gives you a lot of flexibility for attacking. I feel a faster nuke (than below) is not robust enough without the additional units (meaning, it's more of an "all-in" if you don't have enough units to back it up--but this build I feel fairly satisfied for strength).

10 Supply (send to scout, leave outside enemy base to scout for push outs)
12 Barracks
13 Gas
15 Orbital
15 Marine (send to ramp)
16 Gas
16 Supply (also builds Ghost Academy)
16 Marine (send to ramp)
18 Ghost Academy
18 Tech Lab (Barracks)
19 Barracks
20 Ghost
23 Supply (also builds Factory)
23 Ghost
25 Tech Lab (Barracks)
25 Factory
25/27 Marauders (2)

**PUSH OUT (or wait for reapers and push)**
31/32 Reapers (2)
33 NUKE (should start at around 6:30 for right timing)
33 Hellion

Build tech lab on Factory after the hellion comes out.

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Don't worry if you aren't perfect with the build, it's fairly forgiving. The worst is if you miss the timings, you just start expanding faster and build up more before the initial push.

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After the initial push...
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You will have some $$ pretty soon. I like getting CC, Engineering Bay, and 2 Barracks (both with reactors).

You can also get Stimpack, more Reapers, or another Nuke around this time too.

The Engineering Bay is for the Banshees...cause Banshees are the bane of this build (since you only have 2 Marines and 2 Ghosts for AA). You can kill them, since Ghosts do extra dmg to light units, but you have to make sure they aren't focusing down your AA with other units.

If he's bio, I like to have a few more Reapers or Marauders to follow the inital push (depending on whether or not you killed the tech labs--Reapers if no labs, or if reactors left), then continue regularly.

If he's Hellions, I like to follow with Reapers and Tanks first, then continue regularly. Ghosts are not light units, and wreck Hellions.

If he's Banshees, then Ghosts/Marines and turrets, then continue regularly.

NUKE TARGETS
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Aiming
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Like a tank splash, the Damage dealt is 100%/50%/25%...but this picture is slightly wrong, because buildings inside the BOLD circle lines are all 100% (it's not just where the rad symbol is).

I recommend going to a unit tester, building a grid of 11X11 supply depots, and test this out yourself, by aiming for the middle depot and seeing exactly where the damage is according to the circle that you get when aiming the nuke.

After that, you should have no question if your nuke is going to kill the buildings you're aiming for.

You will have enough to scan right around when nuke is done, which I recommend (though if nuking a ramp wall, you don't need to scan, you can scan near the top of the ramp and still kill the supply depots there), in order to pick your targets.

What I love about Terrans is that they love to build their buildings together.

Here's the priority order I like to hit for nukes:

Ramp walls
2 or more of the following (in this order of priority):
- Supply Depots
- Tech Labs
- Reactors
- Bunkers
One (1) of the above list, plus some production buildings. (then try to finish it off while after killing the enemy units)

Though ramps walls are an obvious first nuke spot, if they don't wall in, I still recommend scanning so when you press your attack, you know where to nuke and can nuke right away when you go in.

GENERAL GAMEPLAY
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You have your mix of 2 Marines, 2 Ghosts, 2 Marauders, 2 Reapers, and a Hellion....they can do a lot of damage.

Basically, Nuke their Ramp Wall off, and attack.

If they don't have a Ramp Wall, you can either:

Scan, Snipe, move in & Nuke; or
Use your Reapers to move their army out of position, then move in and Nuke; or
Back off, siege their ramp (with initial push units), then wait for your tank to come out and play normal, and nuke.

You want to use SNIPE on the enemy Marines (or Reapers) first, then on whatever else he has that you can snipe. When scanning right before the nuke, I like to snipe whatever I can, depleting the energy on my ghost that is nuking. Then I save the other Ghost to snipe whatever comes down the ramp.

I don't feel like I need a lot of micro in the battle, except for the Ghost Snipe. The only micro I feel is necessary otherwise is targeting Banshees and Tanks (since they can't be sniped.

The nuke will generally out range any tanks on the ledge. Just don't be too greedy with your first nuke. Remember you can always build another one....60 second build time goes fast when you're attacking/sniping the enemy.

The first push may or may not run into other units on the way....you have to be careful that you don't get too close to other units, cause that can ruin your day. Just have your hand ready on the SNIPE, and make sure you're watching as they go to the enemy base.

UNIT BREAKDOWN
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Yes, there's a reason why I like getting the 2 Marine, 2 Ghost, 2 Marauder, 2 Reaper, 1 Hellion initial push.

The initial 2 Marines obviously deny further scouting into your base, and are a good all-around unit.

The Ghosts are good not only because they are necesssary to nuke and have SNIPE, but they also wreck light mech units--namely the Hellion.

The Marauders are your meat shield, and can help destroy and TANKS that the enemy has popped out. The enemy Marauders can be sniped down to health, so your Marauder's fire should target the Tank, before other Marauders.

The Reapers are necessary to help clean up, and do extra damage to buildings--you can destroy addons VERY FAST with these units. Additionally, the Reapers give you the flexibility to go around and pick off SCVs, harass the enemy, and make them out of position for the nuke (especially if the enemy does not wall at ramp).

The Hellion is for when they send all of their SCVs to try to do more DPS to your units.

MOVEMENT TO MID-LATE GAME
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More than likely, your first push will either:

End the game.
Almost end the game, but then the enemy defends, making you have to retreat and regroup.
"Even out," where you get a good attack, but it doesn't finish the game.
or
You'll scan, see no good targets, and see the enemy is deep inside his base waiting for you.

In any case (except #1), you need a good follow through to win the game.

You should have already planted an in-base CC right before/after the inital push, and gotten ready for the mid-game.

I like going hard ground, since I am already prepping for Tanks. Getting the two additional Barracks with Reactors is a good mineral dump after the first attack, and another Factory to get Tanks.

You'll need to get the additional barracks especially if you're continuing to get Ghosts (which I recommend), else the enemy can just overpower you.

I generally don't get medivacs until way later (than you might normally), because I feel that I need the gas to build up, both tech wise, and for more Ghosts/Nukes.

I like to upgrade my Bio (double ups), more than Mech, because I want to do the pushes with Bio, and line holding with Tanks. What I mean by that is using the Tanks to siege a line outside the enemy, then Nuke the enemy line, and then cancel and rush in (if the enemy moved).

WATCH OUT FOR...
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(of course Cheese, but that has its own section)

Banshees, Reapers and Quick Drops. These have the potential of hitting after you push out. Though you can deal with it, it can sometimes turn into a base race....send out the SCVs! Lift the Base, and spread! You will ususally win if it does turn into a base race, simply because you will have a larger, more developed army...you'll ahve to be careful if it's a "Base Race" with Banshees though, because your AA is limited.

Well Positioned Tanks in the natural on Tal'darium Altar LE can spread the nuke potential and can be difficult to get the money for the nuke. Well, you are already getting your Tanks ready, and expo, so you're not too far behind their tank/FE build....and you have nukes.

Push Outs. If they are pushing out to you before you get to their base, the "shock and awe" effect is diminished, but not eliminated. You just have to make sure you can snipe them at range before they engage your forces hardcore, because otherwise they will kill you. This is why I keep my initial scouting SCV outside their base.

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By far, I've had the hardest time with Banshees, which is why I sometimes just pop up a blind turret while I'm doing my push. Since the scouting information is limited, and you might not catch the build if they are hiding it (with your initial SCV scout).

Vs CHEESE
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In TvT, the biggest cheese is either proxy barracks, or Marine/SCV all-ins...though you can probably deal with it in your own ways, this way have been most effective for me:

**As soon as you see a Fast cheese, cancel further tech (like factory), and build an in-base bunker.

Build Reapers after your first Ghost.

With your first two marines, your Ghost (SNIPE), and your SCVs, you should be able to fend off most cheese attacks.

The Reaper will help with clean up, and be useful for the counter attack.

**For Proxy builds, or 5 Rax Marines, You still want to build a bunker, but your Ghosts should be able to snipe off enough of the army for the attack to be ineffective.

**For Reapers, they generally hit before you move out, and your Ghost can kill them fast (without snipe). If they hit after you move out, try the best you can to fend off, and launch the nuke. I find that the nuke generally allows me to kill the in-base Reapers easier, cause the enemy is trying to find the nuke.

[[[[[[REPLAYS]]]]]]

Here's a better Marine/SCV all-in attempt: added 02 May 2011
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171948-1v1-terran-gutterhulk
He actually does a good job attacking, and macroing after the attack. I was able to get him on the counter attack with SNIPE + nuke (if I didn't have snipe, there'd be no way I'd have successfully countered).

Here's a replay vs a 5(-ish) Marine/SCV all in
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/170638-1v1-terran-metalopolis

Here's a replay vs a proxy marine (though not a very good one, it shows the response after found...also note this was before I optimized the build)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/170717-1v1-terran-taldarim-altar-le

TEAM GAMES
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This build can be modified for team games, for a 5 minute nuke start, 6 minute attack (like most team games, 6 minute attack).

If using in a team game, remember this build is especially good against Terran, may have mixed results if there's no Terran on the other team.

You keep the same idea as the regular nuke push, but you use your Allies for the meat shield--which means you don't need the marauders as much. You want to focus on Ghosts, Reapers, and Hellions, to do their damage.

I recommend this more for 4v4s, or 2v2s (reg build) with a partner who goes all Tier 1/1.5, for the meat shield.

For 4v4 Team Games, it works best when there are 2 Terrans, and on maps with shared openings. By far, using the Nuke as a Bunker Buster is the most effective.

For 2v2 Team Games, I like my partner to go: Roaches/4 Gate/MM, since they will all hit well before the nuke. You will probably need to build a bunker before you move out though.

Here's the build I used for the 4v4 Fast Nuke (4:55 NUKE start)
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(I adjusted build straight from the game debrief--I believe it gives the totaly after unit is built, this order is the food right before it's built)

10 Supply
11 Barracks
11 Gas
14 Marine
15 Orbital Command
15 Gas
16 Factory
16 Tech Lab (Barracks)
17 Ghost Academy
18 Supply
18 Barracks
18 ***NUKE*** (started at 4:55)
18 Ghost

**And now have Allies rally for the push** Go with 1 Marine, 1 Ghost.
20 Hellion (This Hellion should catch up for the push)
24 Reaper (This unit will be built as nuking)
26 Hellion (This unit will be built as nuking)

[[[[[[REPLAY]]]]]]

4v4 TTPZvTTTP nuke added 12 May 2011
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208590
Nuke busts, team pours in--don't look at the build, as much as the general strat.

4v4 TTZZvTTTP nuke added 12 May 2011
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208589
Nuke busts, team pours in--don't look at the build, as much as the general strat.

2v2 TZvTP regular ghost nuke (Master/Bronze vs 2xDiamond) added 06 May 2011
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/173408-2v2-terran-protoss-zerg-discord-iv
Yes, I do Pick Up Games where I go to the "looking for a team" chat, and pick up bronzies...this is one of those games. We were heavily contained....and had to find a way to bust out.

2v2 TTvTP regular build ghost nuke (Diamond/Masters level) added 02 May 2011
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171979-2v2-terran-protoss-typhon-peaks

4v4 Fast Nuke (TZZZ vs TTZZ, Megaton)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/170640-4v4-terran-zerg-megaton

4v4 Regular Build Nuke (TTPZ vs TTPP, Outpost)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/170648-4v4-terran-protoss-zerg-outpost

TIPS & TRICKS
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Hold down the "R" button and left-click to snipe. Don't click too fast, or your Ghost WILL NOT SNIPE; he'll just freak out and do nothing. This is less of a problem when you have a bunch of Ghosts in range (snipe is range 10, I believe), cause they will all just take turns sniping.

Use Snipe prior to nuking with a scan (to see high ground).

Nukes will outrange tanks...if he rushed to tanks, he should just be getting siege when you're attacking, so don't be too greedy.

The 2 Reapers can be used as part of your army (as I usually do), or as a harass to the enemy.

The build DOES NOT REQUIRE HIDDEN buildings, but it always is fun if the enemy doesn't expect you coming. I usually don't block my ramp (even with this build), but with the build, it does allow you to block your ramp, if you're that kind of guy.

An easy way to remember when to build is to just remember that after building each Supply Depot, your SCV is supposed to go on and do something/build something else. (SCV on....1st Supply Depot--> scout; 2nd Supply Depot--> Ghost Academy; 3rd Supply Depot--> Factory)

Remember that the Nuke does damage anywhere in the circle....including the far end of it, which increases the Ghost's range substantially. Don't be afraid of just clipping that far end of the circle when you're up against Tanks.

Ghosts ARE NOT LIGHT UNITS; therefore, Hellions do not do extra damage to them. However, the Ghost does extra damage to light, such as the Hellion.

added 19 May 2011 Fun Fact: Fungal Growth does NOT stop the Nuke from coming down, like the play guide suggests. Same with Neural Parasite; it does not automatically stop to Nuke, you have to do this manually after parasiting.

REPLAYS
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[[[[[[[REPLAYS]]]]]]]

Here's a good replay for the Build Order.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/170625-1v1-terran-xelnaga-caverns

This replay shows a slightly different build, but shows the Reapers in action.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/164624-1v1-terran-shakuras-plateau
(This build is actually easier to do, because the buildings and units line up better, but I believe the gas is slower, so your ghosts are built later and have less snipe when attacking).

Good replay for initial build (don't look at my macro after the nuke lands, it's bad I know

), shows that an unprepared terran gets messed by the 8 second nuke landing.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171357-1v1-terran-taldarim-altar-le

-Strider-

Mexico1605 Posts

April 30 2011 04:28 GMT

- - - last updated: 30 August 2011 - - -

Jesus Christ you are from the future! This is the next TvT !

CrayAB

United States24 Posts

April 30 2011 08:48 GMT

On April 30 2011 13:28 -Strider- wrote:

Show nested quote +

Jesus Christ you are from the future! This is the next TvT !

LOL, couldn't stop laughing from this.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

April 30 2011 12:06 GMT

Edited for correct date

~~also need the title to be changed to [G]~~ ....

I PM'ed one of the mods to help change it.

edit: fixed!

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Regardless, this is a super fun build, and I've had major success with it. Who doesn't like nuking someone in the first few minutes of the game?

I have a few more replays that I might add if people want to see more nukes come down.

I'm trying to get good replays of this against all of the different strats in TvT.

MountainGoat

United States507 Posts

April 30 2011 13:11 GMT

This looks pretty cool and would definitely try it out if I ever played T on the ladder. You mentioned you were working on a variety of things while climbing up and down the leagues, what else have you been experimenting with?

Might want to be careful with going up and down the ladders though, on the battle.net forums a blue claimed that they were about to begin cracking down on anyone who purposely lost games.

Here's the link.

Yello

Germany7411 Posts

April 30 2011 14:22 GMT

I tested your built against master league players and it seems to work. You do enough damage against unprepared opponents even though it's most common to even out after the first few minutes.
Some interesting timings: you attack with your units almost at the same time as a blue-flame-hellion drop hits. (huge base-trade-potential or rather SCV-trade-potential)
If your opponent goes for a Tank-push, you could have problems with attacking, and if you don't do damage, you are a little bit behind.
Also I think it's easier to go bio after this opening, just add a third Rax and a Starport and you can have the normal TvT-Bio plus Nuke-support

I like that opening, I will use it in my TvTs now

cfestival

United States32 Posts

April 30 2011 17:06 GMT

On April 30 2011 22:11 BearChocolate wrote:
This looks pretty cool and would definitely try it out if I ever played T on the ladder. You mentioned you were working on a variety of things while climbing up and down the leagues, what else have you been experimenting with?

Might want to be careful with going up and down the ladders though, on the battle.net forums a blue claimed that they were about to begin cracking down on anyone who purposely lost games.

Here's the link.

I've been mostly trying out the other builds, like Stimmed probe's Million Marine March http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200525

I have some really funny TvP 6 hatch builds, where I go 6 hatches before pool, and if the toss attacks, I just transfer drones and rebuild. It's worked a bunch of times, and is just fun.

I've also been trying out other builds with the Mothership, Nydus, and the like...not so much luck yet, but I've really been focusing on just getting good at the already made builds and this Ghost Nuke build.

Thanks for the warning about the B.net leagues too...I guess I'll have to put a stop to that

On April 30 2011 23:22 Yello wrote:
I tested your built against master league players and it seems to work. You do enough damage against unprepared opponents even though it's most common to even out after the first few minutes.
Some interesting timings: you attack with your units almost at the same time as a blue-flame-hellion drop hits. (huge base-trade-potential or rather SCV-trade-potential)
If your opponent goes for a Tank-push, you could have problems with attacking, and if you don't do damage, you are a little bit behind.
Also I think it's easier to go bio after this opening, just add a third Rax and a Starport and you can have the normal TvT-Bio plus Nuke-support

I like that opening, I will use it in my TvTs now

Nice! I've had success with a few of my friends using it too =D

Thanks, I hope to develop it a little more, as far as the transition piece...playing random makes the learning curve for XvX matchup decrease by like, a lot (having 9 different matchups to worry about).

I'll try out the bio build and starport. Do I get a reactor on the third barracks, or a tech lab? (same with Starport). I'm thinking reactor on the 3rd barracks, while pumping out the first medivac, then do a hot swap?

Pl4t0

United States103 Posts

May 01 2011 01:23 GMT

This opening is kick-ass! Definitely gonna use it in conjunction with iEchoic's!

Viledica

Canada361 Posts

May 01 2011 02:30 GMT

I was waiting for this to get posted, haha.

I got so thrown off by this push.
Glad to see you actually ended up posting it, it's certainly something else.

gg again, man.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 01 2011 03:07 GMT

#10

On May 01 2011 10:23 Pl4t0 wrote:
This opening is kick-ass! Definitely gonna use it in conjunction with iEchoic's!

Thanks man

I feel like it really adds fun to my usual boring TvT. Post some replays, I really want to see other people putting this into action!

On May 01 2011 11:30 Viledica wrote:
I was waiting for this to get posted, haha.

I got so thrown off by this push.
Glad to see you actually ended up posting it, it's certainly something else.

gg again, man.

gg man =) Sorry to be smurfing on you....I guess that will come to an end now, now that blizz is doing a crackdown on it

Itches

United States2 Posts

May 02 2011 13:15 GMT

#11

Oh man I had a feeling our replay was going to be added. Now people will know how bad I am.

When I got the "Nuclear Launch Detected" I was pretty confused and only after the fact realized that Cloak probably wouldn't have be trained by then and if I wanted to take out the Ghost I should have attacked immediately. As a result I lost my whole army when I should have just GTFO'd out of there.

Yello

Germany7411 Posts

May 02 2011 13:50 GMT

#12

The addons on your Rax depend on the opponents unit composition. In a Bio vs Bio fight, Marines just rape Marauders, so if my opponent goes Bio, I use 1 Tech Lab and 2 Reactor.
Against the usual Tank-Marine stuff I use 2 Tech Labs and 1 Reactor
On two bases I add 2 Rax (total: 5 Rax, 2 of them Reactor, 3 Tech Lab and 1 Reactor-Starport on 2 bases)
The Factory can build the addons, for example the reactor for your startport while the starport is building.

By the way, it's pretty funny (and damn strong) to do a 1 Ghost 6 Marine drop and let the Ghost nuke while the Marines run around killing stuff ^^

bowser

38 Posts

May 02 2011 15:21 GMT

#13

Can't wait to try this later. Sounds like a really fun way to open bio in TvT.

graNite

Germany4434 Posts

May 02 2011 15:47 GMT

#14

I will definitly try it out. I hate TvT tankchess :/

I ran SCBuildorder and it gave me a much better Bo than yours:

+ Show Spoiler +

10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks (Naked)
13 Refinery
15 Move SCV To Gas
15 Move SCV To Gas
15 Move SCV To Gas
15 Orbital Command
15 Refinery
15 Marine
16 Move SCV To Gas
16 Move SCV To Gas
16 Barracks Tech Lab
16 Supply Depot
16 Move SCV To Gas

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
3:10.00: 55M 66G 50E 16/ 19S
Income: 297M 215G
Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command
Units: 15 SCV 1 Marine
Research:

18 Calldown MULE
18 Reaper
20 Barracks (Naked)
21 Marine
24 Calldown MULE
24 Ghost Academy
24 Reaper
25 Factory (Naked)
25 Barracks Tech Lab
26 Supply Depot
27 Move SCV To Gas
28 Marauder
30 Ghost
32 Supply Depot
33 Arm Nuke
34 Ghost
36 Move SCV To Minerals
36 Hellion
38 Calldown MULE
38 Marauder
42 Lift Factory (Naked)
42 Move SCV To Gas

Waypoint 2 satisfied:
6:43.74: 432M 120G 20E 42/ 43S
Income: 988M 228G
Buildings: 2 Refinery 2 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Ghost Academy 1 Factory 2 Tech Lab
Units: 27 SCV 2 Marine 2 Marauder 2 Reaper 2 Ghost 1 Hellion
Research:

bruteMax

Canada339 Posts

May 02 2011 17:15 GMT

#15

Just wondering if the Factory is required if you don't want to get Hellions as part of your initial push?

graNite

Germany4434 Posts

May 02 2011 17:16 GMT

#16

you need it for the nuke.

EchoZ

Japan5041 Posts

May 02 2011 17:25 GMT

#17

Let the nukes begin! Gonna try this out right now for fun. (offrace)

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 02 2011 19:23 GMT

#18

On May 03 2011 00:47 graNite wrote:
I will definitly try it out. I hate TvT tankchess :/

I ran SCBuildorder and it gave me a much better Bo than yours:

+ Show Spoiler +

Nice--the only thing i don't like, is the late Ghosts. By having the Ghosts out early, you get more energy for Snipe.

Snipe is a critical part of the build, since you need to eliminate as many of the enemy as you can before your forces engage....or you'll get rolled.

Additionally--your nuke comes out around the time of your 2nd Ghost, which means you'll have a stocked nuke the whole time you're moving out.

I'll try it out though, and see how it works in practice

On May 03 2011 02:15 bruteMax wrote:
Just wondering if the Factory is required if you don't want to get Hellions as part of your initial push?

Hellions are part of the initial push---the Reapers and Hellion will catch up to your forces because they move faster.

On May 02 2011 22:15 Itches wrote:
Oh man I had a feeling our replay was going to be added. Now people will know how bad I am.

When I got the "Nuclear Launch Detected" I was pretty confused and only after the fact realized that Cloak probably wouldn't have be trained by then and if I wanted to take out the Ghost I should have attacked immediately. As a result I lost my whole army when I should have just GTFO'd out of there.

hehehehe

yeah---it's cause you were one of the more higher ranked players that I've been able to use this on....though I'm about to add another replay soon of a guy who tried to marine/SCV all-in me--he actually had a pretty good attack, and decent macro---I couldn't just walk into his base after he attacked either.

P00RKID

United States424 Posts

May 02 2011 19:27 GMT

#19

If anybody ends up getting a longer game with nukes vs tanks please post the replays, those are always entertaining. Does the OP have any good replays where you don't win outright from the rush, but still use nukes in mid or late game?

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 02 2011 21:14 GMT

#20

On May 03 2011 04:23 cfestival wrote:

Show nested quote +

Nice--the only thing i don't like, is the late Ghosts. By having the Ghosts out early, you get more energy for Snipe.

I agree with cfestival here. I'll run the bo through the program myself and see what I can do with it.

BETTER BO V4:
+ Show Spoiler +

10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks (Naked)
13 Refinery
15 Move SCV To Gas
15 Marine
16 Orbital Command
16 Move SCV To Gas
16 Move SCV To Gas
16 Supply Depot
16 Refinery
16 Barracks Tech Lab

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
3:10.00: 73M 46G 50E 16/ 19S
Income: 426M 114G
Buildings: 1 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command
Units: 15 SCV 1 Marine
Research:

17 Calldown MULE
17 Marauder
19 Move SCV To Gas
20 Move SCV To Gas
21 Marauder
23 Ghost Academy
23 Move SCV To Gas
24 Supply Depot
24 Move SCV To Gas
25 Ghost
28 Calldown MULE
30 Ghost
32 Factory (Naked)
32 Move SCV To Minerals
33 Supply Depot

Waypoint 2 satisfied:
5:54.73: 475M 107G 43E 34/ 35S
Income: 852M 215G
Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Ghost Academy 1 Tech Lab
Units: 24 SCV 1 Marine 2 Marauder 2 Ghost
Research:

34 Reaper
36 Calldown MULE
37 Hellion
39 Supply Depot
39 Arm Nuke
40 Reaper
42 Hellion
44 Move SCV To Gas

Waypoint 3 satisfied:
7:24.90: 994M 236G 43E 45/ 51S
Income: 1000M 228G
Buildings: 2 Refinery 2 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Ghost Academy 1 Factory 1 Tech Lab
Units: 29 SCV 1 Marine 2 Marauder 2 Reaper 2 Ghost 2 Hellion
Research:

In v4, your expo should start around 6 minutes. Once the Factory finishes, you have enough mins to build another Rax. At 7:30, about the time the nuke (still) finishes, I would suggest building a 3rd Rax or a Starport (I prefer the Starport, because it gets Vikings faster to counter Banshees). Build the other soon after.

Also, the Ghosts finish at about 6 minutes, which gives them ~2 minutes to charge their energy (including nuke production time and time required to land the nuke).

And now for some comparisons with the original, since the time the bo finishes is about the same:

Pros:

Expo comes much faster

2 Hellions are included in the initial push rather than one (the second would be more of a reinforcement though, since it finishes around 7:30)

Cons:

Only one Marine in the inital push (if there are too many Banshees, do as much eco damage as possible and make more Marines back at home out of all Rax)

Will edit if the program comes up with something faster.

EDIT: Doh, I forgot to check off constant SCV production >.>
Oh well, the bo it came up with now manages to sneak a 2nd hellion into the initial attack and constant SCV production at the cost of the Ghosts coming out slightly later.

EDIT 2: I realized the Marine was coming out last on V2. Took me a while to swap unit production and get a reaper out last. You'd think that it wouldn't take that long just to swap unit positions in the bo...

Pocketsocks

United States192 Posts

May 02 2011 21:33 GMT

#21

I would also like to note that Ghosts are very good vs Banshees because Banshees are light and EMP can de-cloak them.

Kukaracha

France1954 Posts

May 02 2011 21:45 GMT

#22

How will this be if Ghosts become 200/100?

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 02 2011 21:46 GMT

#23

Meant to edit my own post instead of making a new one

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 02 2011 21:48 GMT

#24

On May 03 2011 04:27 P00RKID wrote:
If anybody ends up getting a longer game with nukes vs tanks please post the replays, those are always entertaining. Does the OP have any good replays where you don't win outright from the rush, but still use nukes in mid or late game?

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171981-1v1-terran-shakuras-plateau

~~There's a game---I'm not putting it in the top part, because it's not using the ghost/nuke build.~~

edit: I just put it in the bonus section

This is pre-optimized, and I believe this was either a grudge match, or me helping someone...i really forget.

It's a good game with nukes vs tanks though

(but I have my own tanks too)

Crytch

Germany135 Posts

May 02 2011 22:08 GMT

#25

900 (/ 3600 last season) masterpoints player here (EU)

i love your build because i ♥ nukeplay, will try it tomorow and upload the replays

greetz
Crytch

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 02 2011 22:22 GMT

#26

On May 03 2011 06:45 Kukaracha wrote:
How will this be if Ghosts become 200/100?

Imo it will be a huge change for after the initial push is done. You will have 100 more gas leftover to get medivacs/vikings/more ghosts.

This could be HUGE, because cloaked Banshees can rape this build if your Ghosts don't have enough energy and you have no turrets, which is likely when you are doing the inital push. You need Vikings to counter early Banshee play.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 02 2011 22:51 GMT

#27

On May 03 2011 06:14 noobinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

I agree with cfestival here. I'll run the bo through the program myself and see what I can do with it.

BETTER BO V4:
+ Show Spoiler +

Do you have a replay with these builds? It's a lot easier for me to evaluate them that way.

What's the nuke timing (i see the supply, just wondering the time) on this? it seems a little late on the BO. The nuke timing is important, because if you wait too long, the enemy will have come to your base already, almost no matter his build.

You should be all the way at the enemy's base, ready to nuke, when the nuke is completing, at 7:30, this looks really close....if you have a replay with this, it'd be helpful.

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 02 2011 22:55 GMT

#28

On May 03 2011 07:51 cfestival wrote:

Show nested quote +

Thanks for the feedback. The nuke finishes at about 7:30, almost exactly the same timing as before, probably a little earlier.

I'll play a couple of games against an easy AI, but they won't be perfect execution of the bo.

First Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?87d19qhvj8808ni
Second Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?fldh7o7avhrawnh

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 02 2011 23:07 GMT

#29

On May 03 2011 07:55 noobinator wrote:

I agree with cfestival here. I'll run the bo through the program myself and see what I can do with it.

BETTER BO V4:
+ Show Spoiler +

I just noticed---when is the second barracks built?

I didn't see it in the build order, but it has 2 barracks at the bottom.

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 02 2011 23:32 GMT

#30

On May 03 2011 08:07 cfestival wrote:

Show nested quote +

I just noticed---when is the second barracks built?

I didn't see it in the build order, but it has 2 barracks at the bottom.

I took it out cause I noticed it interfered with the timing a little.

My second replay has better timing, and I could've gotten the nuke dropped way earlier if I noticed how fast it finishes. I almost never play with nukes, so I haven't quite memorized how long it takes to make one.

First Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?87d19qhvj8808ni
Second Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?fldh7o7avhrawnh

Homework

United States283 Posts

May 02 2011 23:55 GMT

#31

This build looks strong!
I usually main zerg, but offrace terran sometimes. I'll see what I can do about trying this out on people in the Gold league. XD
We shall see..

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 03 2011 00:50 GMT

#32

On May 03 2011 08:55 Homework wrote:
This build looks strong!
I usually main zerg, but offrace terran sometimes. I'll see what I can do about trying this out on people in the Gold league. XD
We shall see..

Going up and down the ladders, it decimated anyone mid Platinum and below.

On May 03 2011 08:32 noobinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

I watched the replays, and I like using the barracks before the Ghosts are ready to come out. The 1 barracks part sorta worries me a little though, because if the nuke results in you being ahead only a little bit, and the enemy is able to "fend off" the initial push, then you might fall behind in production for the second wave.

Additionally, the Ghosts are about 30 seconds behind, which results in a few less snipes....however, it hits sooner, so the enemy will have less men also.

This definitely is a good start for opening up the build though.

Have you tried using the build vs anyone yet? I recommend trying out both builds (cause I cant play anymore tonight, I'll try later on this week), and seeing how it fairs... paying attention especially to the transitional portion of it.

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10328 Posts

May 03 2011 01:49 GMT

#33

Thanks for sharing, I like the diversity of the units and how you get 2 of each (except the hellion). So basically, it is a micro-intensive build order :D :D :D

This is gonna be really fun, this reminds me of Hyperdub's nuke rush in GSL against MMA (Code A, GSL May)

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 03 2011 01:50 GMT

#34

On May 03 2011 09:50 cfestival wrote:
I watched the replays, and I like using the barracks before the Ghosts are ready to come out. The 1 barracks part sorta worries me a little though, because if the nuke results in you being ahead only a little bit, and the enemy is able to "fend off" the initial push, then you might fall behind in production for the second wave.

Additionally, the Ghosts are about 30 seconds behind, which results in a few less snipes....however, it hits sooner, so the enemy will have less men also.

This definitely is a good start for opening up the build though.

Have you tried using the build vs anyone yet? I recommend trying out both builds (cause I cant play anymore tonight, I'll try later on this week), and seeing how it fairs... paying attention especially to the transitional portion of it.

Going 1rax allows you to get an expand faster. Maybe I could add bunkers as I'm getting my expo so I can defend if the initial push fails. It should be fairly easy to find out whether or not you'll win the battle anyways, so you can retreat with at least your reapers and hellions. Also, I wouldn't normally favor using the factory much more in this bo, but in the case of failure making more hellions because of the lack of production would be great.

So basically it's either 2nd Rax then expand or expand then 2nd Rax. It's a matter of preference (getting greedy with eco or playing it safe with more production).

Also, the reason I'm trading snipes for time is because of less time for the opponent to react (if they scout what you're doing, ofc), less time for an FE to kick in, and possibly other things I can't think of atm.

I haven't actually played against any real opponents yet, but I'll do it when I get the chance. Anything to make a good nuke rush bo, especially to make TvT less broken/full of unit spamming.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 03 2011 14:11 GMT

#35

On May 03 2011 10:50 noobinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah, I guess it's up to your play style, for what happens after the nuke.

I like to keep a constant pressure, as I'm expanding. I think a bunker would work, unless he has tanks already---which would then make it both Banshees AND tanks that the build is weak to.

But I guess it'd be viable if you did the early expo into mech or air play. We need to develop it a little more, as far as extending the build into the next tier for your 1 rax expo. It's certainly interesting. I'd like to see how it plays out. This would certainly be sweet if it were like two builds for this early nuke play----I can see it going that way, like, 2 rax for bio, 1 rax for mech/air. The timing seems almost there for that.

rebotfc

United Kingdom144 Posts

May 03 2011 14:21 GMT

#36

Do you have any replays vs fast banshees? I'm having quite a bit of trouble as after I bust the wall the opponent has 2 banshees which focus fire the ghost and 2 marines.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 03 2011 16:10 GMT

#37

On May 03 2011 23:21 rebotfc wrote:
Do you have any replays vs fast banshees? I'm having quite a bit of trouble as after I bust the wall the opponent has 2 banshees which focus fire the ghost and 2 marines.

Banshees are the bane to this build.

Here's a 1 port Banshee play, but his Banshees aren't really effective:

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/172282-1v1-terran-gutterhulk

But 2 port Banshees sorta suck. This is why I recommend going engineering bay. After/during the initial push, if you scout any sort of Banshee play.

You could also get a starport and a barracks, and do a transition that way (giving you 3 barracks, 1 factory, 1 starport) into regular bio. That may help.

If you want, we can practice it (if you're on the NA server). I sorta need someone to test out the other variants of the build too, as suggested earlier in the thread.

edit: Remember, sometimes you'll bust down the wall, but have scanned it's NOT ok to just watlz in. It's ok to regress back a little, build up a little more forces, and go again.....by that time, you'll have another nuke too.

edit again: ugh...just got pwned by a 2 port....I could have won, but I wasted the nuke on an UNGUARDED ramp wall. It was actually really close, but there was a more much tastier target inside, that would have stopped all banshee production, and taken out 4 supply depots =P

I also messed up on the build, which gave me 3 ghosts, instead of 2. This was because he reapered inside first, and threw off the building timings.

Crytch

Germany135 Posts

May 03 2011 16:36 GMT

#38

I think non-walled early tanks are bane to this build to.
You scan his choke and see some marines / mb with bunker, and a siegetank.

Then you have to place your nuke that the tank cant hit your ghost. He unsieges, go back in his base, the nuke doesnt even kill the bunker cause it doesnt take 100% of the damage, your enemy sieges back and repair his bunker, and you did 0 dmg (and the 2. tank should pop out right now).

If you push in while his tank is still in his base he will just siege where his tank is currently, and his second tank is allrdy sieged anywhere inbase, he counterrepair his tank and you loose all your units.

If you just go back you are technological behind, that your enemy just can go whatever he want.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 03 2011 16:47 GMT

#39

On May 04 2011 01:36 Crytch wrote:
I think non-walled early tanks are bane to this build to.
You scan his choke and see some marines / mb with bunker, and a siegetank.

Then you have to place your nuke that the tank cant hit your ghost. He unsieges, go back in his base, the nuke doesnt even kill the bunker cause it doesnt take 100% of the damage, your enemy sieges back and repair his bunker, and you did 0 dmg (and the 2. tank should pop out right now).

If you push in while his tank is still in his base he will just siege where his tank is currently, and his second tank is allrdy sieged anywhere inbase, he counterrepair his tank and you loose all your units.

If you just go back you are technological behind, that your enemy just can go whatever he want.

For early tanks, I just stay outside his base and grab my natural, and continue on regular. He can't come out cause he doesn't have support from his infantry (they'll be sniped very hard).

During the initial push, I'm making my factory tech lab, especially for tanks.

You can use the two Reapers that you have to do a little bit of harass, to make sure he stays in his base....or as a distraction so you can move in with your initial push forces + 1st round of reinforcements (don't lose your Reapers if you can, just do a quick kill 1-2 SCVs and get out).

Once your expo is up, and you have your tank coming (and are building more production buildings), you should be able to do a tank push on him with the nukes. Just don't get greedy and try to go all in.

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 03 2011 19:19 GMT

#40

I lost to an FE into tons of Rax.

Using my version of the bo, I had 1 rine 1 rauder and 1 ghost by the time the first attack of ~10 rines came. It worked like a charm, but I couldn't harass him at ALL until I got cloak. There were simply too many targets to snipe, as well as the bunkers which I obviously can't snipe. If I tried to nuke the bunkers, my opponent would've just ran up and killed the Ghost.

I eventually lost from being overpowered by the sheer number of rax he had because I tried to go for bio instead of tanks.

Imo if your opponent got tanks before you, go for bio or air. If your opponent doesn't have any tanks yet, get tanks (except against 2port banshees or iechoic's bo, you need vikings early to handle them if you don't end the game quickly enough).

Also, I forgot to save the replay, so the autosave got deleted

I think it was a TvT-ized version of this bo.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 04 2011 18:47 GMT

#41

On May 04 2011 04:19 noobinator wrote:
Using my version of the bo, I had 1 rine 1 rauder and 1 ghost by the time the first attack of ~10 rines came. It worked like a charm, but I couldn't harass him at ALL until I got cloak. There were simply too many targets to snipe, as well as the bunkers which I obviously can't snipe. If I tried to nuke the bunkers, my opponent would've just ran up and killed the Ghost.

I eventually lost from being overpowered by the sheer number of rax he had because I tried to go for bio instead of tanks.

Imo if your opponent got tanks before you, go for bio or air. If your opponent doesn't have any tanks yet, get tanks (except against 2port banshees or iechoic's bo, you need vikings early to handle them if you don't end the game quickly enough).

Also, I forgot to save the replay, so the autosave got deleted

Yeah--Turn on the autosave for your games, at the very most, you can always go back and delete some. I've had to go back a few weeks sometimes to find a replay I thought I renamed.

Not being able to nuke the bunker though? How many guys did he have at his ramp wall? If it's just the bunker, you should be able to snipe everything that comes out with the other Ghost. You should have at least a small force to go with it, so there shouldn't be any problem (I guess here is where the replay would have been handy).

I don't usually like getting Ghost Cloak until way later, because I feel I have to play catch up with regular units first, and it seems like a heavy investment, where I could have gotten a starport, unit upgrade (usually stim) or something.

The great thing about the nukes vs tanks--you can still have your own tanks, and you don't have to worry about the stalemate that tank vs tank usually prescribes.

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 04 2011 23:29 GMT

#42

Well, he had 10 Marines when I had 1 rine 1 rauder and 1 ghost... which probably means he had 30 Rines so he could just flat out anhillate my army. I think he had stim by then, too.

Against this my suggestion is to turtle while securing your nat by using tanks. I learned it the hard way.

Btw, I found a different version of this bo (posted by you) on sc2builds. Care to explain the differences between the bo posted there and the bo posted here?

In case you don't remember what I'm talking about, this is it:
+ Show Spoiler +

TvT Ghost Nuke Push - TvT
By: cfestival | Credit: cfestival
Last update: 4/16/2011

TvT Ghost Nuke Push

01. S:10 - Supply Depot (send building SCV to scout)
02. S:12 - Barracks
03. S:13 - Refinery
04. S:15 - Orbital Command
05. S:15 - Marine (Send to ramp)
06. S:16 - Ghost Academy
07. S:16 - Marine (send to ramp)
08. S:17 - Refinery
09. S:18 - Supply Depot
10. S:18 - Tech Lab (Barracks)
11. S:19 - Barracks
12. S:20 - Ghost
13. S:23 - Supply Depot
14. S:24 - Ghost
15. S:26 - Tech Lab (Barracks)
16. S:27 - Factory
17. S:28 - Marauder
18. S:30 - Supply Depot
19. S:30 - Marauder (when this marauder finishes, GO!!!)
20. S:33 - Hellion (Make NUKE at same time)
21. S:35 - Supply Depot
22. S:35 - Reaper (Can use these to harass, or part of reg army)
23. S:36 - Reaper

TG_CryMeAReaver

United States7 Posts

May 05 2011 01:16 GMT

#43

I have been really interested in ghost play and want to incorporate it into everyone of my match ups however I find it really difficult to use ghosts effectively against other Terrans. Other than nuking Siege tank lines to force an unsiege and quickly engage (while canceling the nuke) I cannot think of other uses.

What are the uses of ghosts in TvT and when is an effective time to transition to them (so that Ghosts which are extremely gas intensive does not cripple the terrans economy or tech)?

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 05 2011 01:46 GMT

#44

On May 05 2011 08:29 noobinator wrote:
Well, he had 10 Marines when I had 1 rine 1 rauder and 1 ghost... which probably means he had 30 Rines so he could just flat out anhillate my army. I think he had stim by then, too.

Against this my suggestion is to turtle while securing your nat by using tanks. I learned it the hard way.

Btw, I found a different version of this bo (posted by you) on sc2builds. Care to explain the differences between the bo posted there and the bo posted here?

In case you don't remember what I'm talking about, this is it:
+ Show Spoiler +

Yeah---I haven't changed the one on the sc2builds site yet. I was pissed cause they didn't have "nuke" as one of the options.

That build was "pre-optimized" to getting the Ghosts out, but the flow of units and such seemed easier (at the time at least). The difference is the gas timing--I found it's better to just make it first.

The build I have here (on the TL site) gets the nuke out like 30-40 seconds faster, as well as the other units.

--about the game you played, if there's a buildup, you should be able to have more Ghosts. The key to attacking a marine only army is to get in there, snipe everything, and nuke his supply really quick; if there's a lot of back and forth, you'll eventually be overwhelmed because you'll run out of snipe, and he'll keep making units. Make another replay, and we'll try to see what's going on in your games. You should be able to handle anything he has at the time the nuke is ready.

On May 05 2011 10:16 TG_CryMeAReaver wrote:
I have been really interested in ghost play and want to incorporate it into everyone of my match ups however I find it really difficult to use ghosts effectively against other Terrans. Other than nuking Siege tank lines to force an unsiege and quickly engage (while canceling the nuke) I cannot think of other uses.

What are the uses of ghosts in TvT and when is an effective time to transition to them (so that Ghosts which are extremely gas intensive does not cripple the terrans economy or tech)?

SNIPE - one shots marines (without combat shields)

EMP - decloaks Banshees

Regular attack - pwns light units, like Hellions & Reapers

Nuke - you don't have to just nuke and cancel....pick a good target (buildings), and let it come down. Do this with your army, and he won't be able to stop it (rather than just trying to ninja nuke).

NagatoYuki

12 Posts

May 06 2011 06:09 GMT

#45

You sir, are a HERO. This push works Ridiculously Magnificent in TvT.

Here's two replays of me executing this build. ( Diamond Level Play )

-TvT Nuke Opening #1
-TvT Nuke Opening #2

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 06 2011 13:44 GMT

#46

On May 06 2011 15:09 NagatoYuki wrote:
You sir, are a HERO. This push works Ridiculously Magnificent in TvT.

Here's two replays of me executing this build. ( Diamond Level Play )

-TvT Nuke Opening #1
-TvT Nuke Opening #2

Nice!!!

I uploaded the replays in the bonus section.

I like that bunker for vs Banshees--I guess that is a pretty good option for early defense. When attacking now, I sometimes take a few scvs for a little more fodder, and to throw up some turrets while attacking (if there's Banshee play).

I also like how you were able to shut down the early pressure pretty well in that first game.

I'm glad this is working for you.

------------------------------
edit:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/173408-2v2-terran-protoss-zerg-discord-iv

this here is a 2v2 replay of the Ghost Nuke (diamond level opponents, vs me and a bronzie pick up) The enemies were from a clan, and obviously had a plan going into the game. On the other hand, i had the hardest time with my ally even giving me control (all the games we've played), and he was slow, which slowed down the Ghost nuke....turning it into a defensive game. We got contained hard, and had to figure out a way to bust it.

This is an entertaining game

...it also shows why you shouldn't bunch up your buildings, even if you're winning.

perser84

Germany399 Posts

May 10 2011 22:40 GMT

#47

hi after i saw your replay

on xelnaga

i noticed one thing

if the enemy scout with scan that you built ghost
and that alone is in your advantage

because when he saw it
he thought "oh my god cloack ghost with nuke better i make countermeasues!!!!"

so he built rocket tower or in your case a raven

that means he waste money because your scared him
and you did actually nothing at all !!!!

because he built a raven he could not affort siege mode uppgrade
but even if he had siege mode you cast the nuke outside his sight range

thank you for this built i am really sick of that boring 50 min marine tank viking lame

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 11 2011 03:21 GMT

#48

@ perser84

hey---the newest patch sorta screwed up the build.....

I'm in the process of fixing it again.

--and yes, you're correct. so many times have players thrown up detection, while I haven't gotten cloak.....but with that said, there's a surplus of gas with the new patch.....might make cloak more viable....or more nukes.

I've developed a ghost - marine build from this, where basically you don't build the factory initially, and do a ghost/marine first. it crushes bio, but dies to siege, if you take too long. I gotta refine that too....but if you scout rax building, i mean, you'll probably be expecting a mm push, right?

*I'm working on both builds now btw---they're separate (for clarification).

NagatoYuki

12 Posts

May 11 2011 07:37 GMT

#49

Yes, The patch actually ruined my almost perfected ghost timing

but i think delaying second gas fixes this problem. i delay my second gas till halfway my first ghost is being built OR only put 4-5 SCV's in the vespene geysers.

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 11 2011 11:26 GMT

#50

On May 11 2011 16:37 NagatoYuki wrote:
Yes, The patch actually ruined my almost perfected ghost timing

but i think delaying second gas fixes this problem. i delay my second gas till halfway my first ghost is being built OR only put 4-5 SCV's in the vespene geysers.

I agree with this solution. Other than a delayed 2nd gas the bo should be just about unchanged, except additional Ghosts after the push will be much more accessible.

perser84

Germany399 Posts

May 11 2011 15:56 GMT

#51

@cfestival

pls concentrate first on your anti tank marine bo

because its the most comon built
and most hated

well its true that cloack is viable but
on your strentgh of your built is to strike hard and fast before he can built something decent up

and with no cloack at first you certainly confuse him

i like it more to do the nuke stuff kill rax and something else and if it fails to finish him
i can still safetly expand

i dont know if it helps but i think ghost opener delays shees harras
after my enemy scan me and saw i had 2 ghost already he attacked me with 3 shees intead of one and his timing was the same when i cast the nuke

0neDose

Canada14 Posts

May 11 2011 18:31 GMT

#52

I put in this composition into Build Order Tester and it spit out a faster timing of 6:41

Obviously this build tester is ideal, so I would add 20 seconds and we're at about 7:00 which is 30 seconds sooner than the original.

The only unintuitive things are the supply drop and 19 orbital but it looks like a faster way of deploying the build. Enjoy, anyone can borrow the build order or edit the one I have below.

Bye.

+ Show Spoiler +

10 Supply Depot
11 Refinery
13 Move SCV To Gas
14 Move SCV To Gas
14 Move SCV To Gas
15 Barracks (Naked)
18 Barracks Tech Lab
18 Supply Depot
19 Barracks (Naked)
19 Orbital Command
19 Refinery
19 Reaper
20 Ghost Academy
20 Move SCV To Gas
21 Calldown MULE
21 Move SCV To Gas
21 Barracks Tech Lab
21 Reaper
22 Move SCV To Gas
23 Factory (Naked)
23 Marine
24 Supply Depot
26 Marine
27 Ghost
30 Marauder
32 Arm Nuke
33 Calldown Extra Supplies
34 Ghost
36 Move SCV To Minerals
36 Hellion
38 Move SCV To Minerals
38 Marauder
40 Move SCV To Gas
40 Move SCV To Gas
42 Move SCV To Gas

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:41.10: 298M 108G 30E 42/ 43S
Income: 808M 228G
Buildings: 2 Refinery 2 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Ghost Academy 1 Factory 2 Tech Lab
Units: 27 SCV 2 Marine 2 Marauder 2 Reaper 2 Ghost 1 Hellion
Research:

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 11 2011 18:43 GMT

#53

On May 12 2011 03:31 0neDose wrote:
I put in this composition into Build Order Tester and it spit out a faster timing of 6:41

Obviously this build tester is ideal, so I would add 20 seconds and we're at about 7:00 which is 30 seconds sooner than the original.

The only unintuitive things are the supply drop and 19 orbital but it looks like a faster way of deploying the build. Enjoy, anyone can borrow the build order or edit the one I have below.

Bye.

+ Show Spoiler +

Nonononono

The point of the original bo is to get a shitload of energy on your 2 Ghosts by getting them asap. In this "ideal" bo, You pretty much get your Ghosts last. That minimizes the amount of MM you can take out with your Ghosts, greatly minimizing the effectiveness of the bo.

Besides, the BO optimizer isn't up to date with patch 1.3.3. It thinks Ghosts still cost 150/150 instead of 200/100.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 11 2011 19:35 GMT

#54

On May 12 2011 00:56 perser84 wrote:
pls concentrate first on your anti tank marine bo

The build is pretty good still vs marine tank....cause you can snipe all the marines, and all that's left is the tank(s).

You can go a lil heavier on marauders on the next push, and that should help clean up the tanks.

I like getting starport + rax now, instead of 2 rax afterwards....giving you 3 rax, 1 fac, 1 star....and nukes.

On May 11 2011 20:26 noobinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

I agree with this solution. Other than a delayed 2nd gas the bo should be just about unchanged, except additional Ghosts after the push will be much more accessible.

actually...more nukes become accessible, because you start to get a surplus of gas.

(or the transition to starport became easier)

AngryBear

United States32 Posts

May 11 2011 23:11 GMT

#55

Can this build be translated to the other matchups?

I've tried it in TvP with some success, as the P player needs to build close to their Pylons (which puts alot of buildings in close proximity to each other). Also, the unit composition of the initial push is really good against Gateway units, especially Ghosts with Snipe vs Sentries.

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 11 2011 23:39 GMT

#56

On May 12 2011 08:11 AngryBear wrote:
Can this build be translated to the other matchups?

I've tried it in TvP with some success, as the P player needs to build close to their Pylons (which puts alot of buildings in close proximity to each other). Also, the unit composition of the initial push is really good against Gateway units, especially Ghosts with Snipe vs Sentries.

Imo TvP would be the worst matchup for this bo because of the huge variety of cheese that Toss can use against you.

Void Ray rush will completely anhillate this. The only AA you have in the first push is 2 marines.

DT rush will destroy this if you don't save up scans. You simply cannot afford to get an E-Bay in the middle of this bo.

I don't think this would fare well against 4gate either, even after the nerf.

EDIT: What does the website say about how many views this thread has!?
+ Show Spoiler +

I hope you didn't look in this spoiler box looking for a meme, cause they aren't allowed here

perser84

Germany399 Posts

May 12 2011 02:25 GMT

#57

true vs toss its not good anymore
dt its not the problem since you have early emp but
the problem are voidrays if you have the micro you could deal at least with one voidray if there is no support

2 marine 2 ghost could manage it

but like you said
its too risky vs toss
since the cost change of ghost

btw i built 2nd gas on 21/22

well from my experiece you crush early medivac bio
and the cast range of nuke is even bigger then the range of siege tank lol

maybe not interresting for this built but you could with a pure bio built beat marine tanks since you force him to unsiege

in the moment he does you can attack him and aport nuke once you are on range of fire

policymaker

Greece152 Posts

May 12 2011 02:38 GMT

#58

On May 12 2011 08:39 noobinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

I hope you didn't look in this spoiler box looking for a meme, cause they aren't allowed here

it probably isnt good vs P, yeah, but fyi u still have 2 ghosts and 2 marines for AA and like previous poster said energy from 1 orbital and 2 emps should hold u nicely against DT rush. its actually like an anti-DT rush build more than anything! xD

Barca

United States418 Posts

May 12 2011 09:00 GMT

#59

Well at least you didn't name this build after yourself

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 12 2011 11:24 GMT

#60

On May 12 2011 11:38 policymaker wrote:

Show nested quote +

2 Ghosts and 2 Marines can't hold off multiple void rays in hell. With Gateway support, they're pretty much invincible.

The point of using this in TvT is because marines are 1-shotted by snipe and marauders are 3-shotted. Zealots? They take 4 shots. Sentries? Stalkers? They can't be sniped. Even though you have EMP, EMP can't actually kill any unit in the game. They can get rid of the unit's function in some cases, but they can't actually kill it.

Also, an economic/non-all-in DT rush won't have the DTs destroying you. You just can't waste 75 energy on your Ghost, sometimes even 125 energy wasted if you miss an EMP. Every EMP wasted is 100 more shields for pretty much every toss unit youre going up against when you push.

statikg

Canada930 Posts

May 12 2011 13:50 GMT

#61

This is pure theory craft but I actually think that a modification of this idea could really work in TvP, generally the issue with rushes in TvP is that they just cut your army in half with forcefields at the ramp and you lose, but if you nuke above the ramp...then they have to retreat from the ramp and you can run your army up and maybe actually win with a 3rax.

perser84

Germany399 Posts

May 12 2011 15:45 GMT

#62

well i think the main problem is now how to change the built order with the cost change
you pay 100 gas less but you must pay 100 minerals more
but i think that affects your timing greatly

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 12 2011 17:34 GMT

#63

On May 12 2011 22:50 statikg wrote:
This is pure theory craft but I actually think that a modification of this idea could really work in TvP, generally the issue with rushes in TvP is that they just cut your army in half with forcefields at the ramp and you lose, but if you nuke above the ramp...then they have to retreat from the ramp and you can run your army up and maybe actually win with a 3rax.

Or just EMP the sentries after scanning the top of the ramp.
The nuke could be used to kill pylons powering gateways instead.

Crytch

Germany135 Posts

May 12 2011 18:42 GMT

#64

tried it out after the recent patch.
some BO mistakes etc, but shows the way that it still works :D
currently ~1.000 Masterpoints EU

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208504

or

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 13 2011 03:16 GMT

#65

I've done this with much success actually.

I just went 2 rax ghost to 3 rax mmg (marine/marauder/ghost), then got an "early" factory.

Basically, it's a mm push, with a few ghosts. Less Ghosts (like 2)/More Marauders if they're going stalker/robo build, More Ghosts (4+) if they're doing 4 gate w/zealots.

I find the build works well vs the Spanishiwa FE build too, cause all they have are the spines to defend....I just have to work it a little better to get it down; I almost totally take him out in the first attack, and probably could have, if I managed it a little better. Don't look at my gameplay after the first attack....I know I'm a nub terran

Against the FE, the enemy has mostly static defenses, or light units....which the Ghost nuke kills.

Here are a few more replays: all games plays post 1.3.3 patch

TvT Ghost Nuke vs FE Marines
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208591

TvP Ghost vs Zealot
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208586

TvP Ghost vs early attack expo
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208587

TvZ Ghost Nuke vs FE
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208588

4v4 nuke
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208589

more 4v4 nuke action
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208590

On May 13 2011 00:45 perser84 wrote:
well i think the main problem is now how to change the built order with the cost change
you pay 100 gas less but you must pay 100 minerals more
but i think that affects your timing greatly

Yes, but it's fun experimenting on the build. The benefit to the gas to minerals is the ease that Ghosts can be produced later in the game. I find that you're not as strapped for gas when making them now, and upgrades/tech is a much more viable option.

On May 13 2011 03:42 Crytch wrote:
tried it out after the recent patch.
some BO mistakes etc, but shows the way that it still works :D
currently ~1.000 Masterpoints EU

posted! keep them coming!

On May 13 2011 02:34 noobinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

Or just EMP the sentries after scanning the top of the ramp.
The nuke could be used to kill pylons powering gateways instead.

I find that the nuke is less effective vs protoss. The 100/100 that would have been for the nuke I spend it on getting STIM earlier (than a reg TvT Ghost Nuke), and maybe opting for more Marauders, instead of the Reapers, and an earlier Tank (without the Hellion)....but it sorta depends on the scouting. If my scouting is still "unknown," I find it safer to just sorta chill a little longer in a TvP, and wait to have a reg MM + G attack, with maybe a tank....depending on the map and how it's feeling.

This doesn't mean I won't get the nuke anyways.....especially now that the new patch decreased the power radius, which means that those pylons might be a little closer together now

Crytch

Germany135 Posts

May 13 2011 11:23 GMT

#66

I think this build is most effective against 1/2-Racks expand, because your enemy will transition into any 4 racks build with bunkers, which are nuked off, and bio becomes snipe-rounded and its gg.

Pulled scv's are fastfood for your hellion/reapers/ghosts.

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 13 2011 11:26 GMT

#67

EDIT: Had to fix the quotes after 3 edits :/

On May 13 2011 12:16 cfestival wrote:
Here are a few more replays: all games plays post 1.3.3 patch

TvT Ghost Nuke vs FE Marines
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208591

TvP Ghost vs Zealot
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208586

TvP Ghost vs early attack expo
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208587

TvZ Ghost Nuke vs FE
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208588

4v4 nuke
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208589

more 4v4 nuke action
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208590

That's a lot of replays :O
You should put them in the OP since it looks like you forgot to lol

On May 13 2011 12:16 cfestival wrote:
I find the build works well vs the Spanishiwa FE build too, cause all they have are the spines to defend....I just have to work it a little better to get it down; I almost totally take him out in the first attack, and probably could have, if I managed it a little better.

Yeah, Spanishwa's bo is kind of flawed imo. It's way too defensive, so it can be a reverse situation for TvZ: Terran mass expands and contains the Zerg while the Zerg turtles XD

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 13 2011 13:03 GMT

#68

On May 13 2011 20:26 noobinator wrote:
EDIT: Had to fix the quotes after 3 edits :/

Show nested quote +

That's a lot of replays :O
You should put them in the OP since it looks like you forgot to lol

Show nested quote +

Yeah, Spanishwa's bo is kind of flawed imo. It's way too defensive, so it can be a reverse situation for TvZ: Terran mass expands and contains the Zerg while the Zerg turtles XD

I didn't put them all in the original post because it's a TvP and TvZ, and the TvT isn't optimized yet (to the new patch).

I did put the team games in there though....team nuke games are always fun to watch.

Also, don't misunderstand me about the Spanishwa---it's an awesome build, and if you don't stomp him on the initial push, they can still recover and keep playing (if you look at my game, I do a lot of damage, even killing a bunch of drones, but he still had so many left over). Nukes vs Zerg aren't nearly as effective as they are against Terran, or even Protoss. A few well-placed EMPs will help defeat those pesky transfusing Queens though

On May 13 2011 20:23 Crytch wrote:
I think this build is most effective against 1/2-Racks expand, because your enemy will transition into any 4 racks build with bunkers, which are nuked off, and bio becomes snipe-rounded and its gg.

Pulled scv's are fastfood for your hellion/reapers/ghosts.

Yes, my quickest, most decisive games were against a 1/2 rax FE (which seems to be popular now).

Fun Fact: Fungal Growth does NOT stop the Nuke from coming down, like the play guide suggests. Same with Neural Parasite; it does not automatically stop to Nuke, you have to do this manually after parasiting.

Syorm

131 Posts

May 13 2011 13:14 GMT

#69

Wow I tried this with my gold 4v4 team and it worked like a dream. I like the fact that I can get a nuke and an expansion at almost the same time

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 13 2011 13:29 GMT

#70

On May 13 2011 22:14 MarkBolinder3 wrote:
Wow I tried this with my gold 4v4 team and it worked like a dream. I like the fact that I can get a nuke and an expansion at almost the same time

Can you post your replay? It's always fun to watch nukes go down.

For team games, it's ok you didn't use an "optimized build" (I haven't really optimized it for team games yet), but the general idea of a fast nuke for bunker/wall busting is awesome.

canox

Canada6 Posts

May 17 2011 23:58 GMT

#71

I managed to pull it off.. BO is a little messed up, too much gas, but it worked pretty well anyways

edit:
heres another one lol. nuke finishes at 7:00
misclicking around nukes is dangerous!!

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

May 18 2011 11:18 GMT

#72

On May 18 2011 08:58 canox wrote:
I managed to pull it off.. BO is a little messed up, too much gas, but it worked pretty well anyways

edit:
heres another one lol. nuke finishes at 7:00
misclicking around nukes is dangerous!!

You had too much gas because the bo hasn't been changed since patch 1.3.3, which changed Ghost cost to 200/100 rather than 150/150. I usually get my 2nd gas around 18 now with this bo.

OP: Also, I found an iEchoic build variant that delays the drop to get a banshee out quicker. With target firing vs the ghosts and kiting vs the rines, he destroyed my attack (which still managed to take out a bunker, 2 depots, all his rines and all his hellions). After that, I had 2 rax pumping marines and a factory pumping tanks. With one cloaked banshee he forced me to pull my SCVs and allin. Even if it wasn't a cloaked banshee, he could've kited my marines all day.

Kind of ironic that the bo you're trying to counter destroys you with a slight change.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

May 20 2011 02:02 GMT

#73

On May 18 2011 08:58 canox wrote:
I managed to pull it off.. BO is a little messed up, too much gas, but it worked pretty well anyways

edit:
heres another one lol. nuke finishes at 7:00
misclicking around nukes is dangerous!!

I added your replays =)

when you did the scan, you should have seen some better targets than the missle turret on the typon peaks match. There were 4 supply depots that may have been hit from the bottom (i think it reaches), and that would have given you a bigger bang for your buck. But yeah--second to that, tech labs are esp good to hit so they can't build marauders (marines can be easily sniped as they are made).

On May 18 2011 20:18 noobinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah---banshees sorta suck. I've stayed behind a few times when I thought he was going banshees....got a few more ghosts, marines, and marauders, killed his banshees, and then pushed. That has worked fairly well too.

Crytch

Germany135 Posts

June 12 2011 15:16 GMT

#74

Two more replays:

And another one, lol:

Crytch

Germany135 Posts

June 15 2011 13:55 GMT

#75

Trolling GM's ^^

BawheidbobSC2

United Kingdom12 Posts

June 28 2011 13:22 GMT

#76

Great read - I will look into trying this one as at this early stage of my playing i just cannot handle the 30+ minute games i find myself in tvt all the time at the moment.

DrLOAC

United States53 Posts

June 28 2011 13:43 GMT

#77

I works well at my lowly bronze level. Terrans almost always wall in at the low levels. The only losses I've had were from unscouted cheese or faiking to follow up the initial push.

Crytch

Germany135 Posts

June 28 2011 14:36 GMT

#78

I have played this strategy now like... 50 times? Maybe more.
In my oppinion this build is very strong against any FE, mostly a autowin.

Against 1 base it's always a coinflip.
Cloakted banshees can become a problem before you finished stim because he just abuse his range (or cliffs on some maps) and you loose to much units to do a decent push.

Against early siegetanks it's a skilltrade. If hes intelligent enough to unsiege only one tank after another while you are nuking you will do 0 DMG and you still can't push in cause he's always sieged with some tanks.

Blueflame openings are another "cfestivals nukepush" killer, because they kill most of your units. Marines, Hellions and Reaper will die instant, and he can harras/drop your worker and you have to go allin or gg leave.

The success of this strategy is very depended of your first scan, cause you have to check if he's fast expoing which means you can go ahead and autowin, or see what he is teching for to change your unitmix.

Anyway, i love this build, i always have to laugh so fucking hard when my opponent just stay or run in the nuke :D
Have got so much ragequits and flames in ladder, just to funny.

1.700 Master Terran, EU

edit: I dont play every game 100% the correct BO, i change it up if i feel so.
Dont stick to much to the BO, trust your feeling.

BawheidbobSC2

United Kingdom12 Posts

June 28 2011 16:43 GMT

#79

Well i attempted this today and managed to get a win out of it. Lots of practice yet required but you have given me another fun option to try.

Thank you for the guide

(supernerd)

United States8 Posts

June 30 2011 20:25 GMT

#80

I'll upload a replay when I get a chance in a bit, but if you modify the build a bit it works well for 2v2, ESP dropping the ghost in against T. Destroyed 9 supply depots with one nuke. Thanks for the build!

OhMyGawd

United States264 Posts

June 30 2011 21:18 GMT

#81

On May 13 2011 03:42 Crytch wrote:
tried it out after the recent patch.
some BO mistakes etc, but shows the way that it still works :D
currently ~1.000 Masterpoints EU

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=208504

or

Hmm nice game, but you got like 10 free marine kills =S might not show exactly how this build works

Crytch

Germany135 Posts

July 03 2011 17:32 GMT

#82

On July 01 2011 06:18 OhMyGawd wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hmm nice game, but you got like 10 free marine kills =S might not show exactly how this build works

Think that was my first game after the ghost buff, just wanted try if it still works.

oMNY.SEA

Australia47 Posts

July 12 2011 16:13 GMT

#83

Hello, im a gold league terran from the SEA server that has lurked here and felt no real urge or need to post until now. This strategy has intrigued me since the moment i saw it, and ive had mixed success with it despite having not quite mastered its nuances yet anyway.

Ive noticed there have been problems with two port banshee, and ive had problems with it myself. While experimenting today i came up with a variation of the build that lets you move out with +1 marine, a turret building and nuke starting to research at 6:40ish. Its late and ive yet to nail it properly in practice, so i dont have a replay as of yet. However, the main aim here is to have somebody better than me check if this is viable or not in a "This is safe" way. As i dont know all of the nuances that come into the timing of this attack im not entirely sure if the ten second delay would matter. A further slight delay is picked up from the reapers, which still get to you in time for the attack. Adding your third SCV to your second gas at the right time is crucial to having enough gas for the reapers still, although i guess thats the same with the normal version of the build too? Not sure.. it seemed like putting only one scv onto the second gas later on worked fine before. Anyway, i found staggering the SCVs onto the gas worked the best. Add your second when you normally would, and your third a little bit after that.

Heres the build order:

+ Show Spoiler +

10 depot
12 barracks
13 refinery
15 marine
16 OC
16 Ghost Academy
16 Marine
18 Depot
18 Tech Lab (Rax)
18? Refinery (Leave 1 SCV working for now)
Heres where my build variates, and i wont be leaving population markers because it may variate with skill leve. Ive found the depot after the second ghost must be placed -crucially- fast. As is another one or two in the build i believe.
Ghost
Barracks
Ghost
Depot (Fast)
Tech Lab (Rax)
Factory
Marine
Engineering Bay
Marauder
Marauder
Depot (Fast)
Nuke
Hellion
Depot
Reaper
Reaper

Place the turret whenever you wish, if you wish.

Any feedback would be much appreciated. If i remember correctly (once again, its late) the extra marine comes from delaying the barracks and getting the ghost first, you have time to make a marine while the tech lab is building on the second rax, allowing you to then pump the double marauder afterwards. Im not sure why this doesnt equate to the full building time of a marine in lateness, but i have a sneaking suspicion its to do with the fact my reapers seem to come off a little late, but still get there in time. Also.. the engie bay fits in *shrug* but i guess a few people have been experimenting with that.

And last of all, a game inspired me the other day where i saw a 2rax 1 fact setup birth 4 nitro reapers later than normal that exploited a hole in a base defense and destroyed a whole ton of SCVs. Im thinking, maybe we should stop trying to get reapers out -before- everything else, and just settle into the fact they are now standard units. Im thinking of experimenting with using the GhostNukePush to firstly distract the enemy long enough to build an expansion and transition into marine tank + nitro packs and have a handful of nitro reapers around for map control/counter attacks. I dont see any issue with having them hug a watchtower until they see a "more mobile" MM army move out then counter attack their main for intense SCV kills. It seems like Marine Tank Viking is fairly Immobile, i mean, im only gold league but day9 says it all the time. The *ahem* Muscular but immobile marine tank versus the very mobile MMM. I dont see why nitro reapers cant fit in here in small numbers, with retention in mind, even just to scare the potentially very mobile army away from spending their entire game gallivanting around the map.

Anyways its late, hopefully the build is a viable tweak to leave it safe against banshee issues, time to sleep. Im sure somebody will explain to me briefly why im just over excited and that it only works with me because i forget to build SCVs

oMNY.SEA

Australia47 Posts

July 12 2011 16:16 GMT

#84

Oh also, the 18 Depot and 18 Tech lab may be around 17 somewhere, i forgot to remove those numbers. I simply took the refinery and placed it after the tech lab as i saw Cfestival said he tweaked his build in that way after the patch.

oMNY.SEA

Australia47 Posts

July 12 2011 16:22 GMT

#85

Sorry to post spam but i just wanted to add. I know Reapers can be shut down by 1 bunker at the mineral line. But one bunker for 100 minerals plus 200 minerals for 4 marines, and the 4 population sitting there the entire game. Times that for each expansion they have, and i intend to have these reapers throughout the game. Also, they could leave two marauders. Same situation for pop but slightly less money, however, but also 50 gas. And the reapers are useful for all manner of other things from killing scouts, holding watchtowers, scouting to straight up being part of your composition if you need the extra support.

cfestival

United States32 Posts

July 17 2011 07:43 GMT

#86

Hey all---I'll be back in a bit, I've been on "vacation" from sc2 for a while, and only have been able to play one day in the past few months.

I'll update the post with the replays when I get back....which will still be in over a ~~week~~ few months =(

I miss sc2.

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