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On May 29 2011 13:31 Perplex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 09:31 Medrea wrote:On May 29 2011 09:10 whereismymind wrote:
you see, if terran rushes blue flame hellion, he can drop around 7 minutes 30 seconds. so my question is how do you properly scout what is terran doing inside his base(blue flame or banshee) since you don't have observer?
i put few cannons in mineral line to prevent this blindly, ..
or can you kill him before 7minute 30s incase of banshee or blue flame?
halluc for scouting very very early inside? 3 Gate strikes well before 7:30. If he is trying to back stab you with a medivac and hellions. He will be dead because that is a lot of resources not at his front. If he doesnt want to die, a helion will come to the front to stop you from killing him, when you see the helion guess what, you scouted. Helions are bad at defense anyway, 3 gate kills or punishes this drop rush almost outright given congruent skill levels. Thats what this build excels at, scouting. You don't need to see the factory if a tank is shooting you. You don't need to see the ghost academy if a ghost is shooting you. And if a ton of marines and marauders shoot you, guess what you just scouted an early marine marauder rush. And if he is trying to hide hi-tech units. He will die since 3 gate is fairly aggressive and cant be held off if terran is doing excessive teching. And if he is doing a delayed tech, you are going to see it with the robo! This build has like no glaring holes in it, the only way you can lose is if terran is the better player, and there is no problem with that. Just dont get too aggressive with the poke, like lose all your shit to a ton of infantry. If they double bunker the ramp with marines you can't push past it and you still have no idea what tech they're going for. That's the main problem I have with this build.
If you see two bunkers, and they have nothing but marines in them, you know a lot actually. You can pretty much guarantee they have tech back there and you should be very safe getting a robo and expanding. leave a sentry to force field the ramp, or if you dont want to do that or contain, leave a worker outside so if they do a 2 tank raven push with all marines you will be able to see it coming. Simply put, strong bunker with marine defense > robo time. Dont have to know right then what tech they are grabbing since robo generally keeps you safe from all of it.
If obs comes out and you see expansion, you are ok because you have expanded as well. If he one barracks expanded, your 3 gate will do considerable damage and may even be able to win the game.
If cloaked banshee comes. You are ok because obs is at the very least on the way. Maybe won't completely shut it down but you should be ok.
If he is expanding AND banshee rushing he would be dead to your 3 gate.
If he is doing some kind of 2 tank, many marines and a raven play with banshees (or some thor variant), you will at least see it coming. What you do after seeing it is up to you. You can cancel expo if they push out and you are scared you cant hold it, you will be in the very least on even ground afterwords. You can keep the expansion but stop probe production and come out ahead but it will be harder to hold.
If you poke the ramp and a bunker or two with marauders and slow are there, do NOT stick around like an idiot and let everything die (main prob people have and they go "OMG terran imba" when they lose everything instead of running away). Run home and if they chase, which they usually will as that is a marauder timing attack, FF front, cancel expo, and continue to hold off the attack and you should be quite ahead after the hold. Immortals will shut it down really fast.
The only other wild card is some kind of 1 base no expo ghost rush in case your 3 gate push will not defeat it but should be threatening enough to pull the ghost into the fight. A ghost expo opening dies to 3 gate.
Just dont be silly and rush up the ramp with stalkers in front zealots in back or some other kind of sentry up front silliness. Remember not every attack is meant to kill your opponent.
This build is good at being safe, it will not put you in a great lead in any way as it sacrifices a balanced amount of tech and economy for safety. If opponent makes a risky build, THEN you can come out ahead. If opponent plays standard, you are on balanced footing and skill will matter from there on, which is the way it should be.
Terran has to outplay you to beat this build. No problem in that.
If I had to update this build for the current patch, I would do the following. Cut the first zealot, buy an early gateway, build 1 stalker and then 2 stalkers. After this ascertain what you want to do.
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You get a quicker expo with the 2 gate pressure and isn't meant to kill the opponent, just to apply some pressure, it also hits a lot quicker.
Aggressive 3 gate can straight up kill your opponent if he plays to greedy, but you delay your nexus. It can also contain the Terran player quite well since you get a lot of sentries.
Both are good, the 2 gate is really easy to spot for and most Terrans nowdays will know you're doing if they see the second gate that fast, so a lot of Protoss have just been just doing the 2 gate as a defensive build to get the Nexus up.
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This works very good for me in silver league thanks man !
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I'm really only having difficulty with this build if the Terran goes fast cloak. If they do this, I'm practically dead =/
Advice?
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On June 24 2011 08:22 Singularis wrote:
I'm really only having difficulty with this build if the Terran goes fast cloak. If they do this, I'm practically dead =/
Advice?
Gas steal will delay the cloak enough for you to have an observer out before it hits.
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Any updated build for this post patch (new WG timing)?
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On June 24 2011 09:18 PeggyHill wrote:
Any updated build for this post patch (new WG timing)?
Nope, everything is the same. I've been using it lately and it's still very powerful.
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I feel like the sexy up and coming cousin of this build is the 1 gate expo into 4 gate pressure
any thoughts on that cecil?
3 gate you expo at ~6 min as pressure hits correct?
1 gate you expo at ~5 min and pressure at ~7 with slightly more units.
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On June 24 2011 09:43 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 09:18 PeggyHill wrote:
Any updated build for this post patch (new WG timing)? Nope, everything is the same. I've been using it lately and it's still very powerful.
can you post some recent replays?
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Hwangsin recently won the TL open, and used a build similar to this one in most of his PvT's.
Day9 breaks down Hwangsin's gateway heavy PvT here. I thought it was pretty interesting and i'm going to try it out tonight when I get home. Cheers!
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Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote:
Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
Because you can have a very good idea of wether you need a robo or not by poking with a zealot/stalker?
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you need to poke up ramp faster.
personally i think fast 3 gate is a counter build to fast banshees because it's so obvious if they're teching and you just trhow down a robo and the obs is out with plenty of time to spare.
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srsly, when you scout a terran that has gas and walling off his front. poke in 30 sec later and see if there is a techlap on the front barracks. if not = either tank or banshee so dont go for this build. Only go for this build if you scout techlap barracks or gassless expo (tho this means you have tod o dmg cuz your expo is later then his)
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On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote:
Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built?
You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 25 2011 04:01 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote:
Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe. You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built? You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there.
Do you think that in this case, a forge is a better choice than a robo? If i see lots of marines, no tech lab on the rax etc i will usually throw down a robo, but it's usually before the expansion, and i feel it slows my expo down a good deal...let's face it, 3 gate robo expo kinda sucks. I have never defended banshees with a forge, wouldn't it be easy for the banshees to snipe your outlying buildings, like a couple pylons, and maybe even a gateway?
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On June 25 2011 04:09 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 04:01 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote:
Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe. You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built? You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there. Do you think that in this case, a forge is a better choice than a robo? If i see lots of marines, no tech lab on the rax etc i will usually throw down a robo, but it's usually before the expansion, and i feel it slows my expo down a good deal...let's face it, 3 gate robo expo kinda sucks. I have never defended banshees with a forge, wouldn't it be easy for the banshees to snipe your outlying buildings, like a couple pylons, and maybe even a gateway?
What purpose was the robo going to serve in a situation where you open with a lot of gateway aggression? Immortals are too slow to be aggressive at this point, and Colossus would lead you into a defensive game for a long time (unless close positions or allin). So in this example it would be to get an observer. That's 225/175 to detect a banshee that cost 300/300 (including cloak), and assuming you suffer probe loss you're still left with a useless robo. A forge allows you to save your ever valuable vespene, and perhaps spend that 100 vespene on an upgrade. Basically the forge will more than likely have more utility than a robo at this point in time.
I believe a rough banshee timing would be 7 minutes 30 seconds.
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this is all i do in PvT.
I make sure i have decent to good map aweness. On maps where you can see the attack path from a tower ill have it, or ill just have a probe outside his base.
Normally, if i dont see any units coming in by the time i get my first warp in (ill have zealot, stalker, senty and then warp in one more of each) i know they're not going for an early push, with a few marauders/marines/SCV. So i would just add on a robo incase of banshee and ill expand.
But i might try applying pressure on him instead.
Might have to try this a few times in ladder
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On June 25 2011 04:13 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 04:09 Teoita wrote:On June 25 2011 04:01 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote:
Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe. You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built? You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there. Do you think that in this case, a forge is a better choice than a robo? If i see lots of marines, no tech lab on the rax etc i will usually throw down a robo, but it's usually before the expansion, and i feel it slows my expo down a good deal...let's face it, 3 gate robo expo kinda sucks. I have never defended banshees with a forge, wouldn't it be easy for the banshees to snipe your outlying buildings, like a couple pylons, and maybe even a gateway? What purpose was the robo going to serve in a situation where you open with a lot of gateway aggression? Immortals are too slow to be aggressive at this point, and Colossus would lead you into a defensive game for a long time (unless close positions or allin). So in this example it would be to get an observer. That's 225/175 to detect a banshee that cost 300/300 (including cloak), and assuming you suffer probe loss you're still left with a useless robo. A forge allows you to save your ever valuable vespene, and perhaps spend that 100 vespene on an upgrade. Basically the forge will more than likely have more utility than a robo at this point in time. I believe a rough banshee timing would be 7 minutes 30 seconds.
Nah robo is much more valuable as a response to cloaked banshees then forge. Forge doesn't cover everything, doesn't give you scouting and doesn't really give you map control. Forge + cannon is also hardly faster then robo + obs, as forge + cannon is 85 secs while robo + obs is around 95 secs (assuming 1 chrono on the obs). Also your obs finishing a few seconds after cloak does isn't too bad, you lose a few probes perhaps but often you can kill the banshee in return and be up an expansion. A cannon finishing too late means it might get sniped or the banshee just leaves safely, putting up a cannon at the expansion under cloaked banshee(s) is also quite hard whereas with obs there's no such problem.
Banshee play could also be just without cloak as a setup for a tank/banshee/marine push which you don't know before putting the forge/robo down. Robo is immensely useful against this push as it allows you to follow them with obs. Cannons do absolutely nothing against the tank variety of the push.
Finally gas is actually a less precious commodity against tech builds then minerals really. Any tech build makes sentries weak (and you have some already anyway) and usually requires mass zealot/stalker to stop. I rather spend 250m 250g for 2 obs then 450 for 2 cannons...
The build overall is still weak against fast banshee play though, if i'm not really sure i vastly prefer a 2 gate variation, it expo's slightly faster and is a bit less awkward against tech builds and the like while having hardly less pressure (because it uses the gateways more efficiently).
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EPT
