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[G] PvT 3 Gate Aggressive Expo - Page 11

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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galzohar
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel100 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 01:08:27
April 25 2011 01:07 GMT
#201
When going for any kind of 1 rax FE I'm really not sure what to do against this. Now I doubt the answer is to just not go 1 rax FE on most maps, since 1 rax FE is an extremely common build in GSL in just about every matchup. Also, as far as I understand from this thread and others, 2 rax expand isn't exactly good against this either? And obviously 3 rax is not a build you really see at competitive levels at all... I have yet to find a game in GSL where the T goes for 1 rax FE and effectively stop 3-4 gate strategies, so I'm still wondering what I should be doing...

Also, is there a "e-mail me when this thread gets replies" button somewhere that I have missed?
DZK
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada40 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-26 12:42:14
April 25 2011 01:14 GMT
#202
edit : nvm
TechN9ne
Profile Joined February 2011
United States24 Posts
April 25 2011 02:29 GMT
#203
I love this build! i use it all the time and sometimes u can catch the terran off guard and straight up kil him and in the middle of all of it u have money to throw up a nexus and a robo almost whenever
Dont be that guy
Soulglider
Profile Joined April 2011
China10 Posts
April 25 2011 03:59 GMT
#204
Can anyone offer some new replays of this build vs various Terran openings? I've been having a lot of problems vs more aggressive openings, like 3 - 4 rax builds where they come out before I have a chance to warp in enough units to contain them at the ramp.

What time am I supposed to arrive at the Terran base? Many games I'll arrive at the Terran nat and he'll already have 2 bunkers in construction and nearly done. Am I late, or should I not be worried about these 2 bunkers? Should I still push in?

What adjustments (if any) do you make vs 2 rax? Or should I have no problems containing him with the 3 gate?

In what situations do you build more stalkers instead of sentries? I recently watched a Sase vs Nada match where Sase contained with 4 stalkers, 1 sentry and a zealot.
Losing is for Winners
galzohar
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel100 Posts
April 25 2011 04:11 GMT
#205
As long as enough of his army is up the ramp you can easily annihilate anything that is down at the natural. However with 3-4 rax and bunkers I think you're supposed to have your expansion way before his anyway and thus still gain the economic advantage? And if he goes aggressive 3-4 rax, I'm guessing the whole point of this is that 3 gate can deal with it defensively, no?
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
April 25 2011 17:53 GMT
#206
On April 25 2011 12:59 Soulglider wrote:
Can anyone offer some new replays of this build vs various Terran openings? I've been having a lot of problems vs more aggressive openings, like 3 - 4 rax builds where they come out before I have a chance to warp in enough units to contain them at the ramp.

What time am I supposed to arrive at the Terran base? Many games I'll arrive at the Terran nat and he'll already have 2 bunkers in construction and nearly done. Am I late, or should I not be worried about these 2 bunkers? Should I still push in?

What adjustments (if any) do you make vs 2 rax? Or should I have no problems containing him with the 3 gate?

If you go for this opening you would do it against any opening the Terran does. Doesn't matter how many rax they get. If he has 2 bunkers being constructed at the Nat sounds like you're really late, although if they aren't done, how are you losing..?

On April 25 2011 13:11 galzohar wrote:
As long as enough of his army is up the ramp you can easily annihilate anything that is down at the natural. However with 3-4 rax and bunkers I think you're supposed to have your expansion way before his anyway and thus still gain the economic advantage? And if he goes aggressive 3-4 rax, I'm guessing the whole point of this is that 3 gate can deal with it defensively, no?

If he one bases you with lots of barracks, you can FF contain until he gets medivacs. Though, you have to be a half-way decent player and be able to watch the minimap/ramp of the enemy, as low level players like to stim and try to run down quickly.
galzohar
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel100 Posts
April 25 2011 18:51 GMT
#207
Against 2-3 rax do you actually make it with enough sentries to their ramp before they have enough to safely move down?
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
April 25 2011 18:58 GMT
#208
On April 26 2011 03:51 galzohar wrote:
Against 2-3 rax do you actually make it with enough sentries to their ramp before they have enough to safely move down?

Well since the OP says you'll have about 5 sentries, and you need 4 to infinitely contain, I'd say yes you do.
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
April 25 2011 19:03 GMT
#209
On April 26 2011 03:58 CecilSunkure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2011 03:51 galzohar wrote:
Against 2-3 rax do you actually make it with enough sentries to their ramp before they have enough to safely move down?

Well since the OP says you'll have about 5 sentries, and you need 4 to infinitely contain, I'd say yes you do.


I believe you need 6 sentries to infinitely FF a ramp, no?
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
April 25 2011 19:14 GMT
#210
On April 26 2011 04:03 Anihc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2011 03:58 CecilSunkure wrote:
On April 26 2011 03:51 galzohar wrote:
Against 2-3 rax do you actually make it with enough sentries to their ramp before they have enough to safely move down?

Well since the OP says you'll have about 5 sentries, and you need 4 to infinitely contain, I'd say yes you do.


I believe you need 6 sentries to infinitely FF a ramp, no?

I'm pretty sure it's 4, I've always used four and it seemed to work for me. I've also always heard it was four from casters and such.

Either way 4-5 Sentries works great for a strong FF contain. You can actually have a strong FF contain with just one sentry if you do it right.
ForTheDr3am
Profile Joined November 2010
842 Posts
April 25 2011 19:23 GMT
#211
You need 6 Sentries to really indefinitely forcefield a ramp, as they will regnerate barely over 50 energy together in 15 seconds. However, that is a nonissue since they have some starting energy, you just need to threaten the FF to contain and you don't want to stay there for the rest of the game anyways.

The original question from galzohar on the other side wasn't related to the Sentry count directly, I believe he wanted to know whether you have enough units in total to combat a T who is waiting with his units on the bottom of his ramp before you arrive there. I believe it is yes, but I am not sure and if it wasn't the question he intended, I will ask it instead.
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
April 25 2011 19:23 GMT
#212
I'm pretty sure it's 6, here's some math:

(FF cost)/(FF length) = (# sentries)/(rate of energy recovery)
(50 energy)/(15 seconds) = (# sentries)/(0.5625 energy/second)
# sentries = 6

It works with less because you start with some energy build up already. Also you shouldn't trust casters, they often spout out a lot of incorrect information :p

I know that 1 is really all you need, but like you said, that only works at higher levels because you can keep your eye on the ramp/minimap and your opponent is probably not going to risk stimming and running down.
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 19:43:35
April 25 2011 19:41 GMT
#213
On April 26 2011 04:23 Anihc wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's 6, here's some math:

(FF cost)/(FF length) = (# sentries)/(rate of energy recovery)
(50 energy)/(15 seconds) = (# sentries)/(0.5625 energy/second)
# sentries = 6

It works with less because you start with some energy build up already. Also you shouldn't trust casters, they often spout out a lot of incorrect information :p

I know that 1 is really all you need, but like you said, that only works at higher levels because you can keep your eye on the ramp/minimap and your opponent is probably not going to risk stimming and running down.

Oh, didn't realize that. Thanks for the clarification ;P

So then 4 Sentries constantly FFing would give you a decay of 33.75 energy per round or FFs, so if you end up at their ramp with 4 you should be able to constantly FF for about 3 minutes. If you have 5 sentries at their ramp you should be able to FF constantly for about 15 minutes.

On April 26 2011 04:23 ForTheDr3am wrote:
The original question from galzohar on the other side wasn't related to the Sentry count directly, I believe he wanted to know whether you have enough units in total to combat a T who is waiting with his units on the bottom of his ramp before you arrive there. I believe it is yes, but I am not sure and if it wasn't the question he intended, I will ask it instead.

With a proxy pylon, yes.
AxelTVx
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada916 Posts
April 25 2011 21:30 GMT
#214
Cecil, I've been playing around with this build, and I find that cutting probes at 24/25 (Zealot + Sentry included in supply) gives you a perfect timing.

24/25 cut probes get 2 gates
After 2 gates resume probe production
2 Sentry Chrono boost Both

Now once the 2nd sentry is done, the warpgate just finishes.

Your thoughts?
Axel 145 Masters Protoss
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
April 26 2011 20:19 GMT
#215
On April 26 2011 06:30 Axel.Bowex wrote:
Cecil, I've been playing around with this build, and I find that cutting probes at 24/25 (Zealot + Sentry included in supply) gives you a perfect timing.

24/25 cut probes get 2 gates
After 2 gates resume probe production
2 Sentry Chrono boost Both

Now once the 2nd sentry is done, the warpgate just finishes.

Your thoughts?

Seems a little unnecessary. I do this opening without any probe cuts and it seems just fine.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-26 21:15:09
April 26 2011 21:12 GMT
#216
On April 27 2011 05:19 CecilSunkure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2011 06:30 Axel.Bowex wrote:
Cecil, I've been playing around with this build, and I find that cutting probes at 24/25 (Zealot + Sentry included in supply) gives you a perfect timing.

24/25 cut probes get 2 gates
After 2 gates resume probe production
2 Sentry Chrono boost Both

Now once the 2nd sentry is done, the warpgate just finishes.

Your thoughts?

Seems a little unnecessary. I do this opening without any probe cuts and it seems just fine.


I'd really want to see a replay of this. In extensive testing I found it impossible to do this opening without probe cuts in a way that lines up well - if you constantly produce probes at the "wait for 300 minerals for 2gate" part your gates are so late that your final sentry finishes 5-10 seconds (or more) after warpgate research finishes.

[edit] I could see it lining up maybe if you didn't chrono Warpgate Research at all, though
Like a G6
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
April 26 2011 21:27 GMT
#217
On April 27 2011 06:12 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 05:19 CecilSunkure wrote:
On April 26 2011 06:30 Axel.Bowex wrote:
Cecil, I've been playing around with this build, and I find that cutting probes at 24/25 (Zealot + Sentry included in supply) gives you a perfect timing.

24/25 cut probes get 2 gates
After 2 gates resume probe production
2 Sentry Chrono boost Both

Now once the 2nd sentry is done, the warpgate just finishes.

Your thoughts?

Seems a little unnecessary. I do this opening without any probe cuts and it seems just fine.


I'd really want to see a replay of this. In extensive testing I found it impossible to do this opening without probe cuts in a way that lines up well - if you constantly produce probes at the "wait for 300 minerals for 2gate" part your gates are so late that your final sentry finishes 5-10 seconds (or more) after warpgate research finishes.

[edit] I could see it lining up maybe if you didn't chrono Warpgate Research at all, though

There are replays in the OP, and I don't think I spent much chrono on warpgate.
Gradius
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States112 Posts
April 28 2011 00:43 GMT
#218
So what will happen to this build if the PTR changes go through? This is such a good build.
StarCraft: Subjection: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=410514
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
April 28 2011 00:51 GMT
#219
On April 28 2011 09:43 Gradius wrote:
So what will happen to this build if the PTR changes go through? This is such a good build.

Since the whole point of this opening is having really crisp macro to get everything you need very quickly, it will be outdated, though the underlying concept will remain (a new variant can be created).
CaptainHaz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States240 Posts
April 28 2011 01:13 GMT
#220
The build timings shouldn't change too much, you can actually use the same timings for the gateways. Assuming they finish as warpgate tech is completing, you can just produce the first round of units that would normally be warpins (pre patch) from the gateways while warpgate is still researching, and warp in at the proxy pylon. You have the same number of units at the same time more or less. Since with the current build the first round of unit warpins were at home anyway, the timings will work out similarly.
All of us warned you of the big white face.
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