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In the Alicia vs MVP came he arrive with only 2 zealot, and I plan to mimic that number when I try this strategy. if you go too zealot heavy it really limits the amount of damage you can do when you poke up the ramp. 2-3 zealots give you meat shield to be able to poke up the ramp and snipe units or buildings, then you can back off and warp another couple zealots in and forcefield your retreat if neccesary.
Additionally if by chance your terran opponent is going a 3-4 rax all in being able to form a arc at the bottom of his ramp and forcefield his army in half, a mostly ranged army is much better than 5 zealots and 5 sentries whereas the zealots will die and leave only sentries to face a stimmed mm ball.
I don't believe this strategy is anything super new here, but the execution was exceptional because Alicia waited for MVP to scout him before he dropped the nexus.
The most natural response (as I have seen Select do, and probably others) is to get medvacs out ASAP. Some people saying that seige tech and or cloak banshees are a good response, I don't entirely disagree BUT you have to consider how much tech and resources is going into that while the protoss will gain a comfortable macro advantage by the time those finish. Problem is with seige is you may prevent protoss from poking up your ramp, but you are still largely immobile. Ladder dropping a large MMM army will definetely end the pressure and possibly catch the protoss army with their pants down and even the odds before any collosus roll out. This also gives oppurtunity to counter and or harass with drops while protoss army is at the front door. I personally as a force of habit will drop a robo if a game lasts more than 7-8 minutes, or alternatively research hallucination and make sure there is no banshee play in the works.
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A siege tanks does a nice job in this situation, although I know Terrans don't like to be forced mech it's viable and safe.
I've also seen a lot of success with Medivacs, or Thors that eliminate FFs and can really hurt with repairing SCVs and a group of marines.
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yea from experience, if terran gets medivac quickly it can be very very dangerous for the p user with this build
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On April 04 2011 10:28 JiYan wrote:
yea from experience, if terran gets medivac quickly it can be very very dangerous for the p user with this build
It's just a three gate expo that's good for setting up a contain. Medivacs aren't anymore dangerous to this than any other 3 gate expo, unless you're a moron with your FF contain.
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On April 04 2011 10:39 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 10:28 JiYan wrote:
yea from experience, if terran gets medivac quickly it can be very very dangerous for the p user with this build It's just a three gate expo that's good for setting up a contain. Medivacs aren't anymore dangerous to this than any other 3 gate expo, unless you're a moron with your FF contain.
Yep, don't overstay your welcome (remain past medivacs) at the bottom of the ramp 
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Here's an alternative tuned build ordering
- 9 pylon
- 13 gateway -> scout
- 14 gas
- 16 pylon
- 18 core @ 100% gateway
- 19 zealot
- 23 pylon
- warpgate tech @ 100% core
- stalker*
- gas**
- sentry
- 30 add 2 gateways
- 31 pylon***
- sentry
- proxy pylon
- transform to warpgates
- 37 cut probes
- warp-in 3 zealots
- nexus
- warp-in 3 sentries & push
- pylon
- resume probes
*minuscule probe cut
** don't mine from this gas immediately or you'll more gas than you need and a few less minerals
*** start mining from 2nd gas now, this will give you just enough gas for everything you need to do
Chrono Boost Usage:
- 4 consecutive chronos on probes @ 10 12 15 & 21)
- 1 chrono on gateway for stalker (note you get 25 energy about 5s in to stalker build so it finishes before stalker finishes)
- 2 chronos on core for warpgate tech after starting 2nd and 3rd gateway (chrono finishes right before warpgate research completes)
Minutiae:
making use of probes rallied from the nexus to for building/transfers reduces wandering probes in most cases
- 12th probe rallied builds nexus & scouts
- 15th probe rallied builds pylon and mines gas
- 16th probe rallied to mine gas
- 17th probe rallied to build core
- first probe after stalker rallied to build 2nd gas
- last probe before cuts (#29, building as warpgate are transforming) rallied to expansion to build nexus
Benchmark:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KsdNA.jpg)
illustrative replay vs ai:
http://drop.sc/2985
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Awesome build Cecil, thanks for this great topic. One question, it's an extremely minor thing but since your build order is so incredibly descriptive I figured I'd ask: You basically specify exactly when to make the units, but I noticed that in the build, only 4 zealots are produced. When is the 5th zealot produced? Is it warped in at the proxy pylon?
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I was wondering if you could analyze my usage of a similar build. I'm kinda a nub and my friend told me that 3 gate expo is fairly safe against terran, so I performed what I thought was one. I didn't really look up the build, so it might be quite OFF lol. I'd just like you to highlight weak areas of my game if possible. THANKS! Btw, he was a random player, my usualy PvT build is 16 nex on large maps. So i laid down a 13 gate, and after scouting i went 3gate expand.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/159585-1v1-terran-protoss-slag-pits#rd:buildorder
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On April 05 2011 15:05 Jaeger wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Here's an alternative tuned build ordering - 9 pylon
- 13 gateway -> scout
- 14 gas
- 16 pylon
- 18 core @ 100% gateway
- 19 zealot
- 23 pylon
- warpgate tech @ 100% core
- stalker*
- gas**
- sentry
- 30 add 2 gateways
- 31 pylon***
- sentry
- proxy pylon
- transform to warpgates
- 37 cut probes
- warp-in 3 zealots
- nexus
- warp-in 3 sentries & push
- pylon
- resume probes
*minuscule probe cut ** don't mine from this gas immediately or you'll more gas than you need and a few less minerals *** start mining from 2nd gas now, this will give you just enough gas for everything you need to do Chrono Boost Usage:- 4 consecutive chronos on probes @ 10 12 15 & 21)
- 1 chrono on gateway for stalker (note you get 25 energy about 5s in to stalker build so it finishes before stalker finishes)
- 2 chronos on core for warpgate tech after starting 2nd and 3rd gateway (chrono finishes right before warpgate research completes)
Minutiae:making use of probes rallied from the nexus to for building/transfers reduces wandering probes in most cases - 12th probe rallied builds nexus & scouts
- 15th probe rallied builds pylon and mines gas
- 16th probe rallied to mine gas
- 17th probe rallied to build core
- first probe after stalker rallied to build 2nd gas
- last probe before cuts (#29, building as warpgate are transforming) rallied to expansion to build nexus
Benchmark:illustrative replay vs ai:http://drop.sc/2985
I like OP's post, but it's very vague. Thanks for this.
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Build sounds pretty solid; I'll try it out
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has anyone got a PvT replay of a terran holding this and countering? Im having alot of problems and its quite sad.
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nice thread gonna try it right now, since it is different from my 3g
for those who are still complaining about banshees, build ur robo at 6 min mark. obs will be out in time with boost.
but u can easily check with first probe if hes may going for and banshee build.
just poke up the ramp with pobe a bit later und look for a marauder.
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Russian Federation30 Posts
in original post I cant understand where do u get 5th zealot from?
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On April 20 2011 02:56 mynhauzen wrote:in original post I cant understand where do u get 5th zealot from?
Watch replays and find out? I don't follow the exact build order every game as I deviate in little ways depending on what's going on. I must have gotten my second gateway a little earlier and ordered a Zealot from it in one game, I'm not sure. I changed the OP to say 4-5 Zealots
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I'm using this build vs marauders openings now and fast expos now. <3
Thanks. I always felt 2GRE was a bit "inefficient" vs marauders opening and I see why after playing some games vs the marauders opening.
This build is also lovely vs scv all ins. :D
edit: And I noticed the games you played are 19 minutes...
in close positions...
I rofled, I always end it or they always end it before the 15 minute mark. (3400 masters, dying and losing confidence).
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I've heard about this build but didn't know how to do it so thank you.. Great guide I have used this strategy a few times now and it works great. First time I tried it I won right away with my second wave of units I warped in.
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I just love how far protoss have evolved. Remember when we expanded after rushing to Colossi off 1 base? LOL
I've been doing this a lot lately, I usually get Halluc. to scout the Terran and see if he is going banshees or something and then get a double Forge and upgrade like a mad man.Thiw works great because if the T goes banshee you can build cannons to spot them.
And I usually try to contain them until i see they are getting either Siege Tanks or Medevacs, after all i delayed their expo a lot compared to mine.(I sometimes get a third just when I leave the contain because the Terran at my level like to secure the nat for a while XD)
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I am going to bring a little bit of broodwar early game reference into this just slightly. In broodwar, it is standard to see a 1 rax expand from terran into factory, with a bunker for their initial marines at the front. The protoss (unless scouted going nexus first) usually wears the daddy pants, and opens up with dragoon pressure and contain. The terran must repair and hold with his initial infantry until the first siege tank pops out, signaling the end of the pressure. It also works in sc2. For all of the terran who are scratching their heads about what to do with FF contain builds, it is best to get tanks asap after 1 rax expo. The tank will be finished when the push comes to your ramp, and your second one will be en route with siege mode halfway done. Now the problem that most terran have after this point is dealing with the 3 sentries warped in from the gas stockpile that the protoss has accumulated and become contained. Siege mode, if factory is started after a 1 rax expo and taking double gasses at the normal time, will finish right when the 3 additional sentries get warped in at a normal FF contain timing. This will force the protoss to be driven off from the front of your base and allow you to float and secure your natural. Tank/marine is a very strong opener against protoss, even against a 3 gate robo bunker bust all-in with proper tank target firing (a.k.a. making sure that it doesn't continually attack the immortal after the initial shot).
I don't have any specific food numbers or game clock numbers, but if your opponent goes for 3 gate bust, you can prevent yourself from getting behind with tanks. From there, you can either choose to transition into mass bio if that is your style, or stay on mech. At this point you are not behind in upgrades or bases, and your army is of higher tech than your opponent's (even though we protoss might have more army at this point, your siege tech advantage cancels out our army advantage).
I will ask my terran friend for a replay of him doing it tonight if he has one. It is a pretty cool way of doing it, and just reminds me a lot of how early game PvT worked in broodwar. He is high masters player and has used it quite a few times on ladder now with success, and has worked out his timings.
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This is still the build with the most upside of all vs. terran IMO. A safe build that guarantees an expo and can even win the game outright with some light early pressure sometimes
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so i read this during the week and didnt play till two days ago....and for some reason i thot this was for pvz and did this twice....exact same build order and crushed them both.....when i watched the replays the guys scouted my 3 gate expo with ovies and just started droning hard like crazy and teching....so maybe this has some viability for zerg matchups...at least in mid-high diamond
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EPT
