On March 23 2011 03:34 Aldehyde wrote:He kept arguing without replays the same way you did (do). Also, the condescending undertone is completely unncecessary.
My tone might have been harsh, but not condescending. People who are known to know what they are talking about have a certain amount of merit in their posts, and can make simple claims without citing sources every post. Although if someone else wants to post here saying that 3 Gate aggression can easily be held by a 1 Rax FE, with two notable people in the forums disagreeing, then that guy better back up his claim or else he'll just further detiorate the SC2 strategy section.
I had three or four games in a row with a teammate of mine, where I won the game with the early pressure while he was doing a 1 Rax FE. I would say a 1 Rax FE is risky against Protoss 3 Gate Expand on any ladder map.
Could you show some replays? I would really like to see what is being done differently on the higher levels and my own level. And perhaps I will learn a thing or two.
I am sure you have some merit in saying that it's risky but I want to know specifics. And referring to this as a "simple claim" is a bit... to me it's not " a simple claim".
I am also not sure why you completely disregarded my whole post.
On March 23 2011 00:46 infinity21 wrote: If you want to mention levels, I'm playing against 3.7k masters on ladder and they will punish me for expanding. The only way I can defend is if P screws something up. When I played against Cecil, I took a risky expo and barely held it with scvs after he supply blocked himself.
I tried it against tQState, who is like 4.1k iirc and he beat me quite handily. As far as I know, the general consensus of top players is that FEs are too risky vs 3 gate atm.
On all maps or just certain maps? Also, what kind of FEs?
2rax FE can hold off a 3 gate easily.
1rax FE can hold off a 3gate as well but only on maps with chokes like LT, Shakuras.
How exactly are you doing the 1rax FE when you're doing it?
On March 23 2011 00:58 Daniel C wrote:I guess P's at my level don't attack properly.
This islikely your problem. infinity and I both said that you should lose to 3 Gate aggression if you just one Rax FE, don't know why you kept arguing without posting any replays or citing any sources.
He kept arguing without replays the same way you did (do). Also, the condescending undertone is completely unncecessary.
None of the games you listed were won thanks to your build, especially not in the marine/tank replay. You won because the opponents did some really questionable decisions in the replays where you won outright. The build is good, though, don't get me wrong. It sets up for a longer game quite well while still putting some pressure on which can be deadly if the opponent hasn't prepared.
I'd like to see how your 3gate build actually fares against a properly executed gasless 1rax FE where the player builds the CC at the natural and not in-base.
Because I didn't see anything special in your replays.
Here's a replay pack of me holding various pressure builds with a 1 rax FE. I haven't seen anything that makes me think that it doesn't work yet.
3 gate is most popular on xel'naga but it works on maps with wide nats generally.
I'm talking about 1 rax gas expos (both reactor and tech lab)
Also can you explain to me how a properly executed gasless expo can defend the zealot + stalker pressure?
@Cecil: Okay, but exactly what is it that can punish the expansion when you put it at the natural?
@infinity21: Yeah, on wide naturals it's not possible to do a 1rax FE, that I agree with, but would you still say it's not possible on maps like LT and Shakuras?
I have a bunker up by the time the zealot stalker pressure arives, usually i think. I will check some replays to confirm. *confirmed*
Unfortunately, that's only 2 maps and every other map has a wide Nat, not to mention Lt is no longer a ladder map. Shakuras is also vulnerable to proxies which makes 1 rax expo pretty risky.
Very happy with this post, being a zerg player trying to switch to Random, i like it when good people such as yourself post things like this to either help complete noobs or players trying to learn deeper mechanics of other races Again, very much appreciation here!
On March 23 2011 05:40 Aldehyde wrote: Well, I meant shattered temple.
Hadn't thought about shakuras being vulnerable proxies.
Still, I take 1-2 maps where I can do a 1rax FE over 0.
And after the changes to backwater, perhaps it's possible there as well. Not to mention tal'darim altar.
Even with a choke it should still be very risky. You'll lose a good amount of bio and the bunkers you put up will be force fielded and non-repairable. It sounds so risky against well macroed pressure.
Edit: The only time this shouldn't be so risky is when you expand to a backdoor like on Delta Quadrant or Shakuras cross positions.
It might be. I will continue to do it until I run into a wall, though, and when I hit said wall, I will try to run through it many a time before I will admit defeat.
You have made me far less convinced in the strength of the build, though, and for that I both thank you and hate you (somewhat)
P.S. If it isn't too much of a bother, I'd still like to see those replays. Thanks.
Made some minor updates and clarifications in the OP, and modified the starting opening slightly. I suggest skimming over the post again for a refresh!
On March 23 2011 06:37 MagicToto wrote: For everyone who doesn't have a GSL account, the video is available here on youtube (uploaded by GOMTV so legal) :
Well, the game between Alicia and MVP demonstrates to me that MVP would have lost outright to a 4-gate or 3-gate robo/void at the first bust. The fragility of MVP's defense in that game was highly surprising...just way too greedy. He saw the troops outside his base yet he STILL got addons and STILL didn't pull SCVs pre-emptively to repair. For all he knew there could be a proxy void coming to his base. He must have been overconfident in his 1 bunker.
In any case, bust or not the contain is very strong.
I'm a 3.6k Terran. Reading this is terrifying; I already felt like FE didn't give enough of an advantage to deal with the power of the Protoss late-game army. How should I be responding to this?
this timing push is still very similar compared to a 4 gate push except less units overall. I am guessing if terran knows protoss is doing 3 gate expand, terran might take it easy and go production mode rather than building a proper defense. If they have multiple bunkers i do not think this build will stop it.
I feel its better off not busting and just camp outside and delay his expansion long as possible using FF and get the economy lead.
this build is so much fun as long as you control it well and dont lose sentries. if they dont do some stupid 5 rax build that just goes all in its pretty easy. even if they all in its not impossible and fairly easy..
I personally like doing Huk's 3 gate expo, which is much more stalkers, and you don't take the expansion that fast, and when you poke up, if you see weakness you just warp in 3 zealots, and it's basically a 1 gas 4 gate with less units obv.
And containing somebody is extremely risky, I usually only do it for about 1 minute then pull back and maybe leave a sentry there to FF, if he does a double drop at your main your pretty much screwed
i got tired of playing the 1 zealot 9 sentry 3 gate expo and did this against zerg and it worked so much better because they can't build up drones crazy fast.
On March 25 2011 11:24 Shooks wrote: I personally like doing Huk's 3 gate expo, which is much more stalkers, and you don't take the expansion that fast, and when you poke up, if you see weakness you just warp in 3 zealots, and it's basically a 1 gas 4 gate with less units obv.
And containing somebody is extremely risky, I usually only do it for about 1 minute then pull back and maybe leave a sentry there to FF, if he does a double drop at your main your pretty much screwed
That's why you diligently understand your timings, so you know when he can have medivacs, because the all the time before the earliest of early medivacs should be spent containing, and thereafter you should just have vision around his spawn to spot drops! Only once he loads up into the medivacs should you retreat (mind you, you shouldn't have your whole army outside his door).
EPT
Again, very much appreciation here!
