Overview This opening allows you to apply heavy pressure to your opponent while expanding. This can punish a greedy Expo by the Terran, and can also set you up for a Sentry contain. However, it should be noted Sentries from this opening will not be very useful against Thor allins or Siege tanks. Also against 1/1/1 allins, a 3 Gate Expand build will likely not pay off in time of when an attack hits.
I decided to write a guide about this opening, as it seems some very high level players are doing this as well, most notably during the GSL with IMMvp and SlayerS_Alicia. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmbVafXvK3Y
Also Liquid`Tyler talked about this sort of aggression when doing a 3 Gate Expansion one day on his stream when he was commentating on some of HuK's games, which is what gave me the idea in the first place.
Overall, you make three Gateways, expand, then attack. Very simple.
The Opening Build
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
14 Assimilator
16 Pylon
@100% Gateway: Cybernetics Core
While Cybernetics is constructing: Zealot; 2nd Assimilator
22 Pylon
@100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate Research (Chrono'd); Stalker (Chrono'd)
2 Gateways @ 300 Minerals*
Warp in 3 Zealots
Nexus
Warp in 3 Sentries
Proxy Pylon
*While Warpgate is being researched you should be able to produce two sentries out of this Gateway.
When your attack hits you should have 4-5 Zealots 5 Sentries and a Stalker (this unit composition can vary by personal reference). This, with followup reinforcements, are often times enough to bust the ramp or deal significant damage when SCVs are pulled from the mineral line. Once your zealots die it's usually a good idea to back off down the ramp and warp in more units, then move gain back up the ramp. If SCVs are pulled off after you've killed a bunker and any Barracks units, I'd advise running back down the ramp as the SCVs will kill your sentries and stalker fast enough so that you lose out on the exchange.
The reason you warp in three Zealots followed by Sentries, is two-fold. First off, you have an accumulation of minerals (about 600-700) and they need to be sunk fast. Zealots followed by the Nexus do this wonderfully. Zealots also have the shortest Warpgate cooldown time, thus allowing you to now spend your accumulation of vespene. This opening is an optimized way to get everything out quickly and cleanly, and allows you to be aggressive with what you have.
Followup The best follow up most of the time is going to be a robotics facility, as Immortals and Colossus are so great against ground forces. However, a forge might be a good idea if the Terran was quick teching to Banshees, as a couple cannons negating a banshee from dealing any damage will put the Terran extremely far behind. 5 Gateways a Forge and a Robotics Facility is a very solid setup to be on in PvT with two bases.
If you want a robo, I suggest constructing it while your Nexus at your natural is being constructed. If you're super paranoid about banshees, have detection and a couple stalkers ready by 7 minutes 30 seconds.
If you are into forcefield contains, this is a perfect way to set one up! Usually a force field contain deals much more damage than actually busting the ramp.
Successes So far I haven't lost a match with this opening except for mis-micro on my part (or something later in the game that had little to nothing to do with the opening). The timing of the attack hits usually just after all the addons for the Terran have been finished, and they usually only have a couple bio units on top of their ramp in a single bunker as production hasn't kicked in yet. If you can bust the ramp and sit on top of their barracks the game is yours.
I assume that this push could be stopped with a proper sim-city on part of the Terran, but even so you're usually able to deal some significant damage before you return to your natural. The best thing about this, is that if you have proper micro you should only lose zealots, thus safely applying pressure to your opponent, forcing them to stay in their base with all their units, drawing focus away from your expansion, at a rather low risk.
Key Notes
With this opening you will live or die with your force field usage, so you best be able to utilize them properly. Also, please use guardian shield when you engage.
Before you lay down your Nexus be sure to clear away any SCV from your Natural Expansion location. You should be doing this with a Zealot Stalker and Sentry, or as I prefer with two Sentries and a Zealot.
Place the Proxy Pylon before your forces arrive, and be sure to warp in your zealots at your natural -this is in case the Terran is doing some form of an aggressive concussive shell rush.
I've never seen anyone lose with this build, nor have I ever been able to beat this build. You stated you haven't really lost with it, but do you have any ideas as to what Terran should do to defend against it properly?
Thanks for this, I'm a noob trying to find a build that I can practicing without getting bored and I think this might be it. Just a couple of extra questions:
-Are you only spending one chrono each on the Stalker and the Warp tech, or are you spending more?
-Is it really a good idea to go zealot heavy? Wouldn't a Stalker heavy mix work better?
-What supply # is a good time to expand? (40-50ish?)
-When is a good time to back off? Since I'm in Silver, the most common terran build I run across is 3rax->Expo. Whenever I give up the choke point at their ramp they bum rush me at my base and I die, but if I stay at their ramp, I leave my base open for drops. Should I just spam spotter pylons at possible drop routes or do I wait until I have a certain unit on the field?
On March 18 2011 10:31 SiN] wrote: I've never seen anyone lose with this build, nor have I ever been able to beat this build. You stated you haven't really lost with it, but do you have any ideas as to what Terran should do to defend against it properly?
Well, I know that two supply depots and a Barracks with a Bunker behind them, and a couple SCVs on the bunker will stop it for sure, and you'd probably get some free Zealot kills. But doesn't that conflict with how you want to spend your money with certain TvP builds?
Short answer: I'm not sure.
On March 18 2011 10:32 awwnuts07 wrote: Thanks for this, I'm a noob trying to find a build that I can practicing without getting bored and I think this might be it. Just a couple of extra questions:
-Are you only spending one chrono each on the Stalker and the Warp tech, or are you spending more?
-Is it really a good idea to go zealot heavy? Wouldn't a Stalker heavy mix work better?
-What supply # is a good time to expand? (40-50ish?)
-When is a good time to back off? Since I'm in Silver, the most common terran build I run across is 3rax->Expo. Whenever I give up the choke point at their ramp they bum rush me at my base and I die, but if I stay at their ramp, I leave my base open for drops. Should I just spam spotter pylons at possible drop routes or do I wait until I have a certain unit on the field?
Any help would be great, thanks.
What you spend chrono on isn't very important in my opinion. Make sure you spend it, and make sure all your gateways are finished when Warpgate research finishes.
I think it's better to be zealot/sentry heavy this early on as you can get out more population count per resources (stalkers are expensive).
Expand exactly when I do in my replays
Back off when the Zealots die and you think you'll lose some sentries! It's best to back off and let the Sentries live, then come back with another warpin round of Stalkers.
The best part about this build is that you basically deny all scouting, since the Terran will most like MULE for more money and can't get a unit out. It probably looks so much like a 4 gate that a Terran will over compensate to defend.
In Alicia vs MVP on Xelnaga, MVP had absolutely no idea that Alicia had expanded and so basically played like it was 1 base vs 1 base, leading to his loss. He couldn't get a marine out to scout.
On Altar, he scanned Alicia's natural to see and responded better. But still, that's 1 less MULE.
Surviving the push isn't the problem that most people and I have with this attack. It's the endless forcefields that come after. Simcity doesn't mitigate this.
On March 18 2011 10:40 SiN] wrote: Surviving the push isn't the problem that most people and I have with this attack. It's the endless forcefields that come after. Simcity doesn't mitigate this.
This. Even if we hold the aggression, FFs prevent any kind of expansion.
I'm really curious as to any valid response as well...
Protoss can definitely contain the terran for a long time while toss's expo is up. Forcefields are very strong. I think its actually better if the terran doesn't wall in vs this.
Nice guide, thanks for writing it and submitting replays!
For the terrans:
You have to rethink your strategies. Just as protoss had to rethink alot of his strategies when terrans did the 1barracks+concussive shell expansion. This is almost the exact same situation, just a little bit later. MVP for example just died because he was too greedy. He got a quite early CC and teched up at the same time. If you do that, you better make sure to deny the push easily and/or do some damage to the protoss economy. Or delay teching or the CC to a later time.
On March 18 2011 11:08 badcop wrote: I don't think Terrans should be expecting to tech and expand and get away with it. Very good build and write up though!
they cant but this build will contain 1 and 2 rax fe's with ease tho.
On March 18 2011 11:08 badcop wrote: I don't think Terrans should be expecting to tech and expand and get away with it. Very good build and write up though!
We aren't teching, at all - a simple 2 rax expand will straight up lose to any aggression without bunkering or walling the main, then we're completely contained by FFs.
Sounds like all the tosses are suggesting we do 1 base builds every game - clearly you haven't seen terran 1 base, lol.
I'm confused as to how this can outright win the game--don't terrans come close to defending a full-on 4gate with fast expand builds? And what about 3rax openings? Don't you generally need a FF/ramp to beat that early on?
He got a quite early CC and teched up at the same time. If you do that, you better make sure to deny the push easily and/or do some damage to the protoss economy. Or delay teching or the CC to a later time.
I'm sorry, but isn't this what every other toss does nowadays, that or double upgrade or mass gateway comp with an FE? It's not that terran need to change up their strategies. It's that we have to get lucky and choose the right tech build and hope he did 3gate exp so that we counter it with, say, cloaked banshees.. Even then, he can easily notice a lot of marines and that you got gas early on, and would instantly assume you went for a tech build so he would throw down a robo. If we ALWAYS do a tech build such as cloaked banshee, we're doomed for sure, as a lot of toss are blindly going stargate now and it will almost always work, regardless of what terran does. Jinro even stated he has no clue what to do against that yet. Any build that has a robo in it will make banshees useless for harassment anyway, whenever I've been getting banshees recently I haven't even been getting cloak anymore because I know it's a worthless investment unless I'm going sky terran (which in that case I would research cloak way later on into the game)
The problem is it's getting too easy for toss to assume what we are doing behind our marines in our base. It's really hard to assume what toss is doing while so many of their openers are ridiculously strong and some almost impossible to deal with/to punish. OP even stated that he's not sure what you can really do if you opened 1/2rax fe.
You didn't label the content of the replays - does one of them cover the response to a banshee tech? "Get a forge" is fairly vague, and leaves me uncomfortable with trying the build :x
On March 18 2011 11:26 kzn wrote: You didn't label the content of the replays - does one of them cover the response to a banshee tech? "Get a forge" is fairly vague, and leaves me uncomfortable with trying the build :x
Getting 1 cannon in each mineral line plus one at the natural choke should be enough until you can tech to robo (remember that you're on 2 bases compared to 1 base banshee tech). If the banshee does nothing, that's a lot of gas (gas is more valuable than minerals, and you're going to have a surplus of it with your expansion).
For Terrans wondering how to punish this build, in Game 2 in the set against SlayerSAlicia IMMvp went for a fast expo into siege tank and then cloakshees. The instant siege tanks pop the build is severely slowed, and the instant siege mode finishes, the rush is over. Cloakshees are an excellent follow-up because in order for Toss to apply pressure with only 3 gates, there's really not much spare income for infrastructure like robo/cannons. You want to expand with a bunker, and be willing to pull SCVs when the Tos attacks; in this way it's somewhat similar to a Protoss 1 Gate Expo.
On a map without an easily securable natural (e.g. Shakuras, Tal'Darim) this strategy is viable. On others like Xel'Naga, I think a 1-base response would probably be optimal. Given that 3-gate relies on the entire Toss army chilling at your ramp, a blue flame drop would seem to be devastating, but I guess more experimentation is needed.
In any case, this build is VERY late getting detection, as it goes 3 gates => massive unit production => Nexus. Cloakshees punish it brutally, as IMMvp did to Alicia in Game 2.
@CecilSunkure: First the 3 Stalker Rush, now this: Thanks so much for your awesome work in dissecting top-level GSL Toss builds and putting them up for the community to review! You're a hero in my book.
On March 18 2011 11:31 kzn wrote: I meant more the timing, assuming you scout the obvious triggers, sry if that wasn't clear.
By the time your 3 gate is at his ramp you will have enough read on the terran player to adjust accordingly. If you see all marines or a low marauder count just get the forge. Shouldn't hurt too much if you were wrong. It's all about learning to read his units and knowing the timing of the banshee etc.
On March 18 2011 10:40 SiN] wrote: Surviving the push isn't the problem that most people and I have with this attack. It's the endless forcefields that come after. Simcity doesn't mitigate this.
If you move out and catch or are caught by the Protoss army, you need to focus the Sentries. This means less forcefields later or forcing the Protoss to spend gas midgame to replenish the Sentry count. This also makes the 6 gate push midgame much less deadly.
@ iChau: That's 450 minerals coming out of your 3gate attack, which makes it pretty weak. In none of the games that SlayerSAlicia did that build did he drop that much in the way of static defenses. I really think that would weaken the build to the point of futility.
It's kind of like MC's 6-gate warpgate rush. You can annihilate the Terran, but the whole time you're crossing your fingers saying "please no cloakshees, please no cloakshees, please no..."
It's a risky build that Terrans can hardcounter if they know it's coming, but it's relatively recent in the meta-game and so I'm unclear on whether it will take or disappear. For example there was a lot of hype about the 3 stalker build, but thus far 0 Protoss have used it in the PvPs this GSL season. We'll see how long this lasts.
You dont need siege mode to stop that attack. Siege tanks just deal insame damage against warpgate units, especially stalkers. And you cant focus them being behind the wall. So quick siege tanks definatelly are a good option. Besides that, P wont know if you are going to make a 1 base siege-marine push or if you are expanding. So this is definatelly an answer. Dont expect it to be a hardcounter though, just a solid build.
On March 18 2011 10:40 SiN] wrote: Surviving the push isn't the problem that most people and I have with this attack. It's the endless forcefields that come after. Simcity doesn't mitigate this.
If you move out and catch or are caught by the Protoss army, you need to focus the Sentries. This means less forcefields later or forcing the Protoss to spend gas midgame to replenish the Sentry count. This also makes the 6 gate push midgame much less deadly.
Disclaimer: My macro sucks and I get blocked a lot.
Also, the Protoss build is really strong. I suppose I got lucky this game with bunkers and my base racing senses are pretty good.
Haha yeah I remember this game. You had some pretty good drop timing. I look to spot drops more often after losing like that xD
On March 18 2011 12:18 moonylo wrote: You dont need siege mode to stop that attack. Siege tanks just deal insame damage against warpgate units, especially stalkers. And you cant focus them being behind the wall. So quick siege tanks definatelly are a good option. Besides that, P wont know if you are going to make a 1 base siege-marine push or if you are expanding. So this is definatelly an answer. Dont expect it to be a hardcounter though, just a solid build.
Check the first replay I posted. Actually, check all the replays and read the entire thread before posting.
When i experimented with 3gate builds awhile back, i started gas stealing as much as possible because of banshee and tank builds. The only problem is that it makes your intentions obvious so i don't know how useful it really is :/
It's a really strong build atm. Even with bunkers and teching to banshees, the protoss is likely going to smell it out and drop a robo. Then he just goes and kills you.
The best way to stop it I've seen is to get bunker with 2rax + relatively quick siege. As soon as siege is done you can move your expansion out and protoss will be relatively behind in tech.
Awww come on, I red the entire thread and yes I saw the marine-tank replay and watched the MVP-Alicia series at least twice. All I wanted to say is that you are not going to break the terran going for quick siege tanks so that is a good option to open as terran. This also helps to break the contain as sentrys get into siege fire when they want to forcefield.
And you wont know if an all-in is coming or if he is expanding (making a CC in his base) either. Didnt say that siege tanks in any form kills this build or anything like that. Or did I?
I approve of the gas steal while doing this build. I only really steal gas if the terran goes for a second marine in favour of a tech lab but it never hurts. On larger maps I still prefer to 1 gate FE, but this 3gate FE has always been my build of choice on scary close positions (unless I'm in a 4gatey mood).
Btw, as I played this build some hours ago I came against the fast 3 hellion +8marine + medivac thing twice and it actually crushes in before he moves out. In both cases he wasnt able to defend. Just for that T opening being so popular I absolutely love this build/opening for P.
On March 18 2011 14:01 KillerPlague wrote: hmm this varys a lot from my 3 gate opening. definitely will look in to it, but i prefer more stalkers early on.
You can always warp in stalkers after the optimized warping in of the zealots and sentries.
You did this to me the other day, faked me out cuz I saw the expo and cancelled my bunker which ended up in me losing. I was just about to pop siege mode and start working my way down the ramp. Im curious of how it would of played out.
Although this is a "classic" opening, it's getting more and more popular recently as people figure out how to prepare for banshees "just-in-time". Good to see it discussed. One question: why don't you get a 3rd unit out of your initial gateway? Can't watch any reps right now to check if this is just a mistake in your write-up, but imo you have to get a sentry 3rd. It's needed vs heavy early aggression and - if you want to use guardian shield - you probably want at least one sentry with more energy saved up. Also you can very much afford it, you should have the 100 gas if you don't get the robotics early.
Even though the whole set-up (unit-choice/BO) is slightly different, this is also a very nice example of a 3 gate execution. Played two days ago, White-Ra vs Bratok:
Notice how "safe" WhiteRa is. He gets 3 gates, expo and even a robotics. But the fact that he didn't go 1 gate robo allowed him to get enough units to just crush bratok with the help of some really well placed forcefields.
At what time do you attack, seeing as you expo i assume 6-7 min mark? I usualy open with 3rax stim/conshell push vs protoss i think i will denie your attack pretty easy with simple a move micro to denie any dmg from the zealots.
This is a fine build against the trend of FEing terrans. It either kills their expo or just contains them while having an expo up yourself.
The weaknesses lie against 1 base starport builds imo. Fast cloak banshee will absolutely murder alot of probe's while they defend the ramp with sim city and a bunker and stuff like fast hellion drop also does well against this imo (because blue flame owns high sentry counts).
I still prefer 2 gate robo over this most of the time for being a bit safer, though not being able to stop their expansion. I can see this build being extremely strong though if you can put them on a bio and/or FE opening for sure, which is what 90% of the terrans do nowadays.
Also i'm not really how well this does against the 1 rax FE as they will usually be able to set up shop outside their ramp already, I guess it depends on how open the natural is.
Tip: Count our force fields before you engage ^^" (totally didn't push up the ramp with GS and die trying to kill the bunker when looking for a last second force field).
Great build though, you can tell when a Terran is going banshees since he will panic and put down more than one Bunker, usually just get a Robo asap if I see more than 1 Bunker
Don't like the Zealots though, you could pull out more units by going Zealots but I don't think it would be as effective, they usually tend to die the second they get hit by conc shell, and Stalkers are better at picking off units behind bunkers/depos/barracks
Hi, Im new to protoss and I tried this build, losing to a 3-4 rax. (without expand) How would you deal with a 3 rax when using this strat? When your expo is denied? http://drop.sc/1806 Ignore the rage at the end, got frustrated with 3 raxes all day
On March 18 2011 22:55 ThaSlayer wrote: Hi, Im new to protoss and I tried this build, losing to a 3-4 rax. (without expand) How would you deal with a 3 rax when using this strat? When your expo is denied? http://drop.sc/1806 Ignore the rage at the end, got frustrated with 3 raxes all day
I've died quite a bit to this too and as far as I can tell, the best solution I've found is to not put down the expansion until you're pressuring the terran at his ramp or at some choke near his base, especially if he's 1 basing. Terran T1 units are so deadly if they get that arc so fighting them in an open area (like your natural on zel'naga) is just a bad idea.
If you notice, higher level players don't expand if they think their opponent is doing a 1base all-in. Instead, they'll throw down an extra gateway or robo and fight their opponent to a draw, THEN expand. You may not be ahead, but at least you won't be behind.
i've been trying this build for a few games. how would you deal with a sealed terran base with depot and rax? ff around the depot to take it down and busting in?
On March 18 2011 19:39 Hypz wrote: At what time do you attack, seeing as you expo i assume 6-7 min mark? I usualy open with 3rax stim/conshell push vs protoss i think i will denie your attack pretty easy with simple a move micro to denie any dmg from the zealots.
I'd like to see that move micro done when there are forcefields behind your army. And, to all of you dieing to three rax builds when you try to 3 Gate Expand, you must have absolutely terrible sentry usage. There is no way you should be losing to anything bio oriented (even if they have ghosts, as you can simply spread your units out) if you have sentries early game. I made a replay for students mine of me going 3 Gate Expand against a 3 rax stim attack, and I ended up winning with losing only a single sentry.
On March 18 2011 19:25 Let it Raine wrote: i just lost to banshees, and the banshee replay posted in the original thread featured 11 minute cloak x.x
(about to watch whiteras game posted above me)
You all are talking about banshees like it's the bane of this build, but in reality if you just have some sort of defense against a cloaked banshee by 7 minutes 30 seconds you are absolutely fine, and that's like worst case scenario. Often times if you are attacking up their ramp they need that banshee to prevent them from dieing anyways. You should be able to pretty easily already have a robotics facility constructing (I usually construct mine when my nexus is being created), and in the event you see a banshee just chrono out an observer. You only need two Stalkers and an observer to stop a cloaked banshee.
Hi Cecil, what is your response to a player that went 1 base thor? Its impossible to scout the armory with a bunker up, and the sentry heavy mix will get annihilated. 1 thor will be out in time to hold off that bust up the ramp.
On March 19 2011 05:30 panzzzzz wrote: Hi Cecil, what is your response to a playing that went 1 base thor? Its impossible to scout the armory with a bunker up, and the sentry heavy mix will get annihilated. 1 thor will be out in time to hold off that bust up the ramp.
I've never had this happen because it must be a really terrible strategy, but I'd just back off to my natural and chrono out immortals from that robotics facility that should be up very soon thereafter.
On March 19 2011 05:34 CecilSunkure wrote: I've never had this happen because it must be a really terrible strategy, but I'd just back off to my natural and chrono out immortals from that robotics facility that should be up very soon thereafter.
I dunno about terrible, but 2 thors, strike cannons, marines, and scvs will be in my natural before I get more than 1-2 immortals up...from there, strike cannons deal with those in less than 3 seconds. I don't know how you can hold that without scouting it (assuming the 5ish sentries you invested in during the 3 gate expand).
On March 19 2011 05:34 CecilSunkure wrote: I've never had this happen because it must be a really terrible strategy, but I'd just back off to my natural and chrono out immortals from that robotics facility that should be up very soon thereafter.
I dunno about terrible, but 2 thors, strike cannons, marines, and scvs will be in my natural before I get more than 1-2 immortals up...from there, strike cannons deal with those in less than 3 seconds. I don't know how you can hold that without scouting it (assuming the 5ish sentries you invested in during the 3 gate expand).
I've held it pretty easily. One time on the Korean server I did this opening and saw thors. I immediately got two robotics facilities out and double chrono'd out immortals. It worked extremely well as I was able to one shot the thors despite losing two immortals to strike cannons.
On March 19 2011 05:24 CecilSunkure wrote: You all are talking about banshees like it's the bane of this build, but in reality if you just have some sort of defense against a cloaked banshee by 7 minutes 30 seconds you are absolutely fine, and that's like worst case scenario. Often times if you are attacking up their ramp they need that banshee to prevent them from dieing anyways. You should be able to pretty easily already have a robotics facility constructing (I usually construct mine when my nexus is being created), and in the event you see a banshee just chrono out an observer. You only need two Stalkers and an observer to stop a cloaked banshee.
I agree 100%, it's important to realize that, when doing the 3 gate build, you actually don't need an early observer above their base since you can attack/contain them anyways.
I like to think about it similar to the 2 gate stargate 5 stalker/voidray poke developed by MC. MC always adds/added (haven't seen him do the build for a while) a robo exactly in time so he wouldn't die vs any cloak play. With 3 gate your goal must be exactly the same. The one gate robo actually gets the observer super early so it can spot cloak tech while it isn't even finished. But in reality you only need the observer out when any cloaked banshee would arrive at your base. This can easily be done with a 3 gate build.
On March 19 2011 05:40 CecilSunkure wrote: I've held it pretty easily. One time on the Korean server I did this opening and saw thors. I immediately got two robotics facilities out and double chrono'd out immortals. It worked extremely well as I was able to one shot the thors despite losing two immortals to strike cannons.
Hmm, I will practice this with my buddy some more then, do you cut probes during your poke up the ramp in order to get 2 robos (or some other deviation) out?
1 base Thor could present troubles for this build, but on a map like Xel'Naga, the rush distance is such that you can warp in ~3 more cycles of units easily before the Thors reach your base, + chrono'd immortal(s). With some micro and decent number of zealots, you should be able to hold.
If you're incredibly afraid of this build, consider a gas steal. In fact, since Cloakshees and Thors are both very viable counters, is it not a terrible idea to consider gas-stealing in general with this build? Or would that be overkill?
On March 19 2011 05:40 CecilSunkure wrote: I've held it pretty easily. One time on the Korean server I did this opening and saw thors. I immediately got two robotics facilities out and double chrono'd out immortals. It worked extremely well as I was able to one shot the thors despite losing two immortals to strike cannons.
Hmm, I will practice this with my buddy some more then, do you cut probes during your poke up the ramp in order to get 2 robos (or some other deviation) out?
Yeah if someone is allining you you don't need to make a ton of probes. I probably stopped with 18 probes on my natural mineral line, and 18 in my main.
Couldn't the terran player just sit in his base and drop the crap out of the protoss player?
I play random, but tend to be better with toss. If i was camping outside a terran's base, I'd be petrified of getting my back stabbed with a dual medivac stimpack drop which can take out the majority of your base if you're not ready for it.
With mules you can pump out a ridiculous amount from one base with terran - but the toss player has 3 locations to worry about - his main, his natural and his force/your base.
On March 19 2011 05:24 CecilSunkure wrote: I'd like to see that move micro done when there are forcefields behind your army. And, to all of you dieing to three rax builds when you try to 3 Gate Expand, you must have absolutely terrible sentry usage. There is no way you should be losing to anything bio oriented (even if they have ghosts, as you can simply spread your units out) if you have sentries early game. I made a replay for students mine of me going 3 Gate Expand against a 3 rax stim attack, and I ended up winning with losing only a single sentry.
Mind if I get a copy of that replay? I know I have terrible sentry usage, so any examples of good FFs against 3 rax would be very helpful.
edit: just watched the tank/rine 1-base. The guy you played was hilarious. I wish all my opponents were like him.
Argh, I was on the verge of committing to learning 2gate robo for my PvT standard build, and now I see this. Can anyone tell me which is easier to learn? I want a robust build that's safe against anything with proper scouting. I'm currently Plat (got demoted out of Diamond a few months ago), but I feel like I'm getting worse over time and might get demoted further soon.
On March 19 2011 06:26 Bonham wrote: Argh, I was on the verge of committing to learning 2gate robo for my PvT standard build, and now I see this. Can anyone tell me which is easier to learn? I want a robust build that's safe against anything with proper scouting. I'm currently Plat (got demoted out of Diamond a few months ago), but I feel like I'm getting worse over time and might get demoted further soon.
I'd say go for the 2 gate robo (1 gate robo 2 gate that is) as I've found 3 gate to not be that good on larger maps. For once, the push itself is harder to do due to the bigger rush distance. But also a one rax FE can be quite hard to break when they get a ridiculous amount of bunkers. You need to either counter-expo and go straight for colossi or break it with an immortal-push.
But the 3 gate definitely comes 2nd, I find it to be much more solid than the stargate opening or the warpprism opening (at least on smaller maps).
For a general state of mind I think every protoss player should be able to execute a 1 gate robo 2/3 gate as their number one overall "safe" build. On big maps you can vary it with stargate opening, warpprism opening or 1 gate FE, on smaller maps you can vary it with the 3 gate aggressive play.
Personally, I've always preferred strict food numbers for a build order, as long as they're carefully refined so you're not doing stupid shit. In addition, the build order given in the OP seems (based on my experimentation) to be slightly off, so I present a (hopefully) somewhat optimized order, in a bit more detail:
At this point, I'm not really clear on it. Whether or not you resume probe production depends on what you see with your attack, how successful the attack is, and so forth.
Standard disclaimer:
Given the length of this opening, there are a large number of things that should cause you to veer off track or abandon it altogether, although offhand I can't think of all that many.
(1) Chronoboost twice continuously after the pylon completes, everything builds with constant probe production if you scout on 13. (2) You can squeeze another chronoboost in here and still get the pylon down in time. Unless there is a reason to be saving chronoboosts, I'm not sure why you wouldn't do this. (3) I _think_ you can start this on 18 with a 19th probe queued. (4) One chronoboost (5) One chronoboost (6) You will not be able to chrono this immediately, but it will come up before it finishes and you can chrono through to the second sentry. (7) From the second gateway (8) If you try to sneak this zealot in, you need to chronoboost your second sentry from the first gateway asap, and your warpgates will morph out of sync. I think its worth it, since it doesn't delay the push as far as I can tell. (9) This is the probe I send to proxy, unless my scout probe is still alive. On long ass maps you may have to send earlier.
Hopefully this is useful, and I mean no offence :x
On March 19 2011 14:04 kzn wrote: Personally, I've always preferred strict food numbers for a build order, as long as they're carefully refined so you're not doing stupid shit. In addition, the build order given in the OP seems (based on my experimentation) to be slightly off
Just curious, how is it off? I intentionally left no food marks as people like to open in different ways. Some prefer a 14 gate off 9 scout, and some like to 13 gate scout. So, I only added to the OP what you need to do, as I think it helps with learning to play solid rather than memorizing long lists of inflexibility.
On March 19 2011 14:04 kzn wrote: Personally, I've always preferred strict food numbers for a build order, as long as they're carefully refined so you're not doing stupid shit. In addition, the build order given in the OP seems (based on my experimentation) to be slightly off
Just curious, how is it off? I intentionally left no food marks as people like to open in different ways. Some prefer a 14 gate off 9 scout, and some like to 13 gate scout. So, I only added to the OP what you need to do, as I think it helps with learning to play solid rather than memorizing long lists of inflexibility.
You put down 14 Assimilator, and as far as I can tell 15 offers no disadvantage and makes it somewhat easier to execute (and you did 15s in the replays iirc too). Core @ 100% of a 13gate is actually on 17 food, and requires a probe cut, and again offers limited to no advantage. Obviously, there's also the bit where I managed to almost sneak in a zealot at no cost, but that's not something I'm absolutely sure of.
I am of the opinion that a 9scout-14 is flat out worse than a 9-13scout, but if people disagree with me thats a fairly minimal modification and I suspect wouldn't require anything except slightly different chronoboost timing.
The "off" bit is directed a bit more at the builds you do in the replays, where the assimilator and pylon are reversed and chronoboosts seem to be a bit less streamlined.
I don't disagree that memorizing a list and being inflexible because of it is a bad idea, but personally I've always found it easier to use food counts to trigger the steps in my opening, and as long as I put in the time to refine it so the food counts are accurate, know what information requires me to deviate from it and how, and have a general idea of how to force a game back on track the difference is essentially personal.
Regardless, I merely wanted to add a more precise order in case other people are like me in how they like to learn openings, not to imply that the version posted is strictly the best.
Hey guys I was wondering if stealing gas would be any good for this build. It would help stop cloaked banshee. Or is the idea all about its good if they tech because it means you can just kill them, meaning stealing the gas would be counter productive.
Anyone kind enough to post replays using this build against any form of early rax aggression? I like this build a lot but 3 raxes just kill me, especially in the lower leagues.
On March 19 2011 15:24 ThaSlayer wrote: Anyone kind enough to post replays using this build against any form of early rax aggression? I like this build a lot but 3 raxes just kill me, especially in the lower leagues.
Yeah I'll make you guys one later. I can't today (sick, and not at my desktop).
Ive had alot of success using ghosts to bust out of toss contains. simply make him use a bunch of FFs, and sneak a ghost down real quick (this should work as the toss cant watch the ramp 100% of the time) emp some sentries, and run down ramp with stimmed rines/rauders. even if he cuts u in half, u should b okay as emp will wreck all his sheilds and u can pull back to ur ledge so ull be protected by the others.
I have a really sick ghost FE timing push build that kills this strat
Well he is just sitting at the bottom of the ramp waiting for your units to come down. He has all the time in the world to make whatever spread he wants. 2 EMPs could MAYBE get 3 sentries. Not that it isn't a big deal losing that much energy, but the toss should have 5+ sentries by that point, depending on when he put down his robo, and how many stalkers he made. Worst case scenario, he only has one sentry with energy, throws down a FF at the very bottom of the ramp and starts running for his base. He might have lost the contain, but his nexus is up, you invested in ghost tech when he is going to transition into colossi very soon, and his army is still threatening enough that switching into harass mode is very risky once you expose yourself by putting down an expo.
On March 19 2011 15:24 ThaSlayer wrote: Anyone kind enough to post replays using this build against any form of early rax aggression? I like this build a lot but 3 raxes just kill me, especially in the lower leagues.
Just tried it, it seems like this is the opening I was hoping to found. Aggressive, safe, no late game disadvantage, macro focused, posibillity to kill your oponent immediately. I prefer it over 1gate FE, because it allows aggressive play. Thank you. More replays would be appreciated
My TvP is perhaps my strongest MU and I almost always 1 Rax Conc. Shell FE into 3 Rax Stim > tech to Starport. Of course I throw down a bunker or two at my expo, or if getting very early pressured one at the top of my ramp while making SCV's out of my 2nd CC. If you go heavy Zealot you will get stopped quite easily with the Marauders.
I also never wall against Protoss. You are asking to get into a lot of trouble if you do that. I am also never afraid to pull SCV's because I am usually ahead in the worker department (especially with Mules). That's my usual opening and I haven't lost to early Protoss aggression in a long time. Usually I am the one doing the aggression :p
On March 19 2011 15:24 ThaSlayer wrote: Anyone kind enough to post replays using this build against any form of early rax aggression? I like this build a lot but 3 raxes just kill me, especially in the lower leagues.
You need to lead with a probe while heading to the Terrans base, if you get caught in the middle by 3rax it is an instant loss. You can usually tell by the units at the top of the ramp if is or isn't a 3rax, usually if it is a 3rax Terran won't even bother to get Bunkers or just have a ton of shit lol
I've encountered this build a lot on the ladder lately and rarely lose to it with a 1/1/1 opening. With other openings it is a bit more difficult to handle especially if they go for FF contain.
When i suspect 3/4 gate pressure i scout with my first hellion to see if theres a proxy pylon. When i spot the pylon i throw down 2 bunkers and try to kill the pylon but if its too late to do so you can just sit on your ramp with a handful of scvs on repair. When protoss is pressuring you can do a 2 (no preignitor) hellion drop, you can kill plenty of probes this way. Then i just tech to cloak banshees and finish it right there by killing all of his probes.
If scouted properly protoss really cant break your ramp, just pull enough scvs and make sure your 2-3 bunkers stay up. The hellions, and later the banshees, can deal some major economic damage. So if you like to open as 1/1/1 and encounter the 3gate expansion a lot give this reaction a try, it works for me(3.6k masters on EU).
Very interesting. I have been playing with double forge stuff lately, and because im paranoid about banshees (only to find out that every single platinum and/or gold terran i play goes 3rax, lol) i always get a fast robo, but opening 3gate is definitely a better idea if i can work out the timings for cloak.
thanks for the refined build! i really like it a lot. many times the terrans i play are super greedy and dont really put up defenses, but since you cant scout past a bunker normally theres no way to tell early on, but with this build i can punish them for greediness without the all-in tendency of a 4gate. super good build imo!
On March 19 2011 15:24 ThaSlayer wrote: Anyone kind enough to post replays using this build against any form of early rax aggression? I like this build a lot but 3 raxes just kill me, especially in the lower leagues.
On March 18 2011 11:31 kzn wrote: I meant more the timing, assuming you scout the obvious triggers, sry if that wasn't clear.
In my experience, if left unscanned/scouted this build usually kills someone going for banshees with cloak. Most people only use 1 bunker when going for that, and it's really not enough.
I'm curious why OP goes zealot stalker, sentry x2, zealot x3, sentry x3 as Alicia and Ace at IEM both got about 1 zealot, 5 sentries, and 3-4 stalkers.
This works great. I have been doing a variant of this, (mainly with a later 2nd gas, which left me vulnerable to banshees due to the later robo) and I have been having a lot of success with it. I started to do it after watching HuK's play which inspired me to be agressive. I have adopted this bo as my standard lately, and I have to say it works quite well.
The contain is the hardest thing to deal with as terran in my opinion. If they drop, I have stalkers in my main waiting for them. If they run down the ramp, I ff. This causes such an economic lead that even the all in after they break the contain is easy to hold off most of the time.
This kind of doesn't make sense to me and it seems like your strat assumes terran building a CC behind the wall. Otherwise, on most 1v1 ladder maps terrans opening 2 rax can have a marine and a marauder (and a couple scv's) at your doorstep before warp gate research finishes.
On March 20 2011 14:30 usethis2 wrote: Otherwise, on most 1v1 ladder maps terrans opening 2 rax can have a marine and a marauder (and a couple scv's) at your doorstep before warp gate research finishes.
So? You know if you just get a sentry this won't be a problem.
I like the sound of this build though I've already had a lot of success with 2gate/star against Terran's who FE but in the case where they go for something else (especially with heavy marines) I've been looking for something else. This may be what I need (instead of 1gate FE that I normally do)
My question is how does this hold up to quick ghosts? I have a friend who loves to go ghosts (she plays random) whenever she gets TvP and it is such a strong attack against a mostly sentry army because once the energy is gone on those sentries, the contain is broken and your army becomes mostly useless. The only way I've been able to deal with quick ghosts is getting colossus out as fast as possible but she'll usually transition and expand long before I can get enough colossus out and I end up losing to tank/ghost/marine.
Just wondering if you've ever encountered a quick ghost timing attack with this strategy?
I don't know the exact timing of a quick ghost, but if they get one this early they should die since that investment can't possibly pay for itself.
Even if I'm going 6 gate sentry push, I've had EMPs hit a ton of my army and I still roll over the Terran force; you only need to prevent the Terran from kiting, and get a guardian shield up (assuming you aren't dramatically outnumbered).
On March 20 2011 14:30 usethis2 wrote: Otherwise, on most 1v1 ladder maps terrans opening 2 rax can have a marine and a marauder (and a couple scv's) at your doorstep before warp gate research finishes.
So? You know if you just get a sentry this won't be a problem.
No it won't be a problem but it won't be the scenario in you OP, either.
High masters (low masters kr) here. I've always wondered what are some cues to attemp to bust up the ramp. I have been playing it safe and ff contain. But sometimes it is much better to bust and trade zealots for scvs/MM. Example: cloak banshees might seem like a hard counter but perhaps you can do enough damage to stay in the game.
For example, if I see him no gas expo I would attack up the ramp. If my probe spots a 2nd rax making before leaving I would stay away. Any tips in this regard? Anything I can determine from stalker zeal poke?
On March 20 2011 14:48 KotaOnCue wrote: I like the sound of this build though I've already had a lot of success with 2gate/star against Terran's who FE but in the case where they go for something else (especially with heavy marines) I've been looking for something else. This may be what I need (instead of 1gate FE that I normally do)
My question is how does this hold up to quick ghosts? I have a friend who loves to go ghosts (she plays random) whenever she gets TvP and it is such a strong attack against a mostly sentry army because once the energy is gone on those sentries, the contain is broken and your army becomes mostly useless. The only way I've been able to deal with quick ghosts is getting colossus out as fast as possible but she'll usually transition and expand long before I can get enough colossus out and I end up losing to tank/ghost/marine.
Just wondering if you've ever encountered a quick ghost timing attack with this strategy?
Actually a high sentry count just means you are guaranteed a forcefield cage, because they cannot possibly drain all your sentries if you spread them a little bit. I've never lost vs 1 base ghost timing regardless of my transition (quick colossus, or additional gates).
On March 20 2011 15:15 W2 wrote: High masters (low masters kr) here. I've always wondered what are some cues to attemp to bust up the ramp. I have been playing it safe and ff contain. But sometimes it is much better to bust and trade zealots for scvs/MM. Example: cloak banshees might seem like a hard counter but perhaps you can do enough damage to stay in the game.
For example, if I see him no gas expo I would attack up the ramp. If my probe spots a 2nd rax making before leaving I would stay away. Any tips in this regard? Anything I can determine from stalker zeal poke?
If he tries to fe or goes for a marine centric build i'd always attack.
After using this build for quite some time now, I feel that this build actually works best on maps with narrower naturals and shorter distances (i.e close pos metropolis), given the mobility of the Terran MM
This 3 gate expo should really be the standard build in P v T. It keeps you 100% while dealing a ton of pressure leading into a contain while you expand.
few questions here : - is gaz steal good to prevent fast banshie ? - are stalker/sentry (like MC) better than heavy zel/sentry to bust a ramp and deal with marins ?
On March 20 2011 14:30 usethis2 wrote: Otherwise, on most 1v1 ladder maps terrans opening 2 rax can have a marine and a marauder (and a couple scv's) at your doorstep before warp gate research finishes.
So? You know if you just get a sentry this won't be a problem.
No it won't be a problem but it won't be the scenario in you OP, either.
On March 19 2011 05:30 panzzzzz wrote: Hi Cecil, what is your response to a player that went 1 base thor? Its impossible to scout the armory with a bunker up, and the sentry heavy mix will get annihilated. 1 thor will be out in time to hold off that bust up the ramp.
Ive beaten thors with this build at THEIR ramp. Coming down a ramp into a wall of protoss units isn't really too desirably, he even tried to bring scv's but it didn't matter. Also, you can still forcefield them since they cant walk over the other units. I was able to cut off units because the thor was blocked behind some other units.
I've also yet to use to cloaked banshees. I don't foresee myself losing to a cloak build unless they tricked me by getting marauders early on then went straight for cloaked banshees, delaying them for quite some time. I think if you guys are losing by being surprised by things you need to be more aggressive as attacking is your scouting. I research hallucinate fairly early if im containing their ramp and just pop a phoenix in every once in a while to decide when i should head home.
Honestly though, I think alot of people are missing a key point in the build and a point that isn't really mentioned in the original post. The real strength of this build is that you are actually able to safely engage bio early in the game and very frequently if you're doing it right. As such, their bio count doesn't hit a critical mass until much later when your economic advantage has already kicked in. One base all-ins as a response is not what terran need to be digging for. They need to at least work in a CC in the main for when they push out.
On March 19 2011 05:51 Karmoon wrote: Couldn't the terran player just sit in his base and drop the crap out of the protoss player?
I play random, but tend to be better with toss. If i was camping outside a terran's base, I'd be petrified of getting my back stabbed with a dual medivac stimpack drop which can take out the majority of your base if you're not ready for it.
With mules you can pump out a ridiculous amount from one base with terran - but the toss player has 3 locations to worry about - his main, his natural and his force/your base.
Just some thoughts.
Drops are a threat if you hold your contain too long. Super fast drops aren't really great against this because you can often just kill the player straight up with your initial army or break down the front. If they do like 2 rax into a drop ship its not much safer than 2 rax FE into a reasonably early drop. To combat this, I tend to start warping in units at home after a warp in or two at my containment spot. Since you can choose how many units to cut off with forcefield you don't need a massive army. Just cut off a small chunk, kill them and run home. As I said in my previous posts on this thread, I personally work hallucinate into this build under most circumstances.
thought process regarding when to get hallucinate... pressure is defined as poking up their ramp: 1.) Send first push as normal, see if you can do damage, but don't commit unless you can 2.) Reinforce with ~2 warp ins regardless of your first poke. 3a.) If more pressure wouldn't be beneficial and they aren't getting marauders, Spend 100 gas on robo, build zealots/stalkers at home with your warpgates. 3b.) If more pressure wouldn't be beneficial and they are getting marauders or you've noticed stim or combat shield or any other tech that signifies a delay in them possibly getting cloak, spend 100 gas on hallucinate and check on them every 45 seconds or so. 4.) Once your expansion economy kicks in, if not a little earlier, you should just head home. The time where you head home will be based on scouting and whether or not they have a seige tank ultimately.
I finally lost with this build last night though. What the guy did was held his ramp really well, got 2 medivacs, then dropped his army off the side of his base and came around from the side to take out my army. It was before my economy had kicked in and though my macro slipped a little I dont think I would have had the units at home because he won the fight so one sidedly. It could have just been due to my variation on the build though as I tend to hold weaker contains and just assume because I have sentry I'll be able to escape as I please.
Regardless of how you use the build you should remember that you dont want a crapton of zealots unless you think you'll be needing to defend. Zealots are terrible at seiging, you need a couple, but you dont want a ton of them on the offensive end as even with forcefields on their ramp, the units sealed off up at the top of their ramp will be able to hit the zeals, which kind of nullifies your forcefield.
3 Warpgate attack, with expo, into 6 warpgate attack, into 3base double robo deathball is like THE Protoss play right now ... and it hurts me -_-
Many Protoss players are realizing they can do a super powerful warpgate rush play and get an expo up behind it. The 3 warpgate attack is in many ways just as difficult to hold than the 4gate.
Terran brethren - you HAVE to expand with mass units versus Protoss right now. Anything else is certain death. If you tech behind bunkers you are going to lose. If you get FF contained, you are going to lose. Expand with mass units, and have bunkers, but take the fight to the middle of the map.
Only fight with your bunkers if you absolutely have to. Even with mass units, and bunkers, the 3gate -> 6gate is outrageously strong. You will probably pull SCVs and be licking your wounds while Protoss is comfortably warping in Nexus #3.
Thanks man! I've been trying similar builds in PvZ. Much like HuK used in GSL I believe. I haven't really tried it much vs. terran. I was never much of a sentry user when I first started playing, but lately, I've really liked the HuK/MC style mass-mass sentry early game. I feel like it gives you a lot of options in terms of early aggression along with being extremely safe.
As for PvT, I don't know how effective this build would be if the terran walls off. Though, if you could manage to force marines/marauders away from the wall-in with forcefields it would be very strong. I'll definitely have to try this out! Thanks!
What do you think is the best response if after you pressure they go into a 2-base ghost/marine/marauder force? I've been having an insane amount of trouble vs. ghost play past couple weeks...
Thanks for this Cecil! I was planning on looking over Alicia's PvT builds since they seemed mighty solid, but once again you've done all the work for me . I love that more Protoss players are taking the initiative and dictating the flow of the game early on, rather than just react to what they see with their initial observer.
As an aside, I'd love to see a write up of a PvZ build from you. Perhaps one of MC's two base timing pushes that are all the rage (hint hint)?
On March 22 2011 05:54 AbeToss wrote: Thanks for this Cecil! I was planning on looking over Alicia's PvT builds since they seemed mighty solid, but once again you've done all the work for me . I love that more Protoss players are taking the initiative and dictating the flow of the game early on, rather than just react to what they see with their initial observer.
As an aside, I'd love to see a write up of a PvZ build from you. Perhaps one of MC's two base timing pushes that are all the rage (hint hint)?
Haha, I think Plexa's guide is still vastly superior to anything I could write at this time
Also, I didn't copy Alicia's build; this is something I've come up with on my own, as I like sentries. Alicia, iirc, got Stalkers and Sentries, and perhaps a slightly later Nexus(?). It's just that Alicia did a very aggressive 3 Gate Expand, like I did, but went for some different units and therefor did something different than me (since the units have different costs).
On March 22 2011 00:33 Swap wrote: Thank you Cecil! I've always liked your wc3 commentaries, seems like you can deliver for sc2 as well!
I have never played WC3 competitively in my life; you must be referring to someone else.
Hey bro, wanted to thank you for another great guide; your adel no gas pvp helped me alot, and this builds has enlightened me quite a bit. I was doing a 3 gate expand already, but it was way more passive. To know which units to build and what to expect gives me a way better feel for what this build could be.
Plan on practicing this build in customs for a bit for comfort's sake, but maybe you can help me out by sharing other noteworthy observations that you've come across in the time you've had to tinker with this.
From the more passive 3 gate expand I've done, I can say that doing a gas steal has restricted banshee builds, at least one's that have cloak, almost entirely. I find it difficult hold off pushes early on, most commonly including 1 marine and 2 marauders with conc shell.
Would you advise to steer away from the gas steal so they feel free to tech, or is there something else that I should watch out for?
Thanks again for your hard work. Deducing the builds from VOD's get tricky real quick.
P.S.: Hoping you upload a rep of you crushing a good 3 rax stim timing push.
Be careful with this build on metal if they do an early bio push on the lane you dont move down and you miss their timing it becomes a pain to try and hold. Just an fyi for doing this build on metal
On March 22 2011 08:24 ZeromuS wrote: Be careful with this build on metal if they do an early bio push on the lane you dont move down and you miss their timing it becomes a pain to try and hold. Just an fyi for doing this build on metal
Sry for dbl post android app won't let me edit. In response to the gas steal question thee build is timed out such that it is not a good idea to get the gas steal. Even I have issues affording the nexus right after the 3 zealots and then low on minerals when getting the sentries and high on gas for a bit with combatant probe production and pylons. Unless I'm supposed to cut probes at one point for a bit
when i execute this build i usually like to steal the T's second gas. It delays their build if they are trying to tech hard to cloak banshees and makes it much safer to expand with the later robo. Cruncher is extremely good at this kind of early aggression play
Looking for some advice. I'm high diamond. My problem with this build is simply that my opponent simply has too many units. I get there @ 7 minutes with the 5 sentries 5 zealots & stalker, but then my attack will just fail, and it becomes too hard to contain him with so few units.
My biggest concern with this type of build is that T has access to much better anti-light units early on than Z does. Is that a potential problem when using a heavy zealot/sentry mix this way?
On March 22 2011 15:08 Jumbled wrote: My biggest concern with this type of build is that T has access to much better anti-light units early on than Z does. Is that a potential problem when using a heavy zealot/sentry mix this way?
On March 18 2011 11:34 Snaphoo wrote: For Terrans wondering how to punish this build, in Game 2 in the set against SlayerSAlicia IMMvp went for a fast expo into siege tank and then cloakshees. The instant siege tanks pop the build is severely slowed, and the instant siege mode finishes, the rush is over. Cloakshees are an excellent follow-up because in order for Toss to apply pressure with only 3 gates, there's really not much spare income for infrastructure like robo/cannons. You want to expand with a bunker, and be willing to pull SCVs when the Tos attacks; in this way it's somewhat similar to a Protoss 1 Gate Expo.
On a map without an easily securable natural (e.g. Shakuras, Tal'Darim) this strategy is viable. On others like Xel'Naga, I think a 1-base response would probably be optimal. Given that 3-gate relies on the entire Toss army chilling at your ramp, a blue flame drop would seem to be devastating, but I guess more experimentation is needed.
In any case, this build is VERY late getting detection, as it goes 3 gates => massive unit production => Nexus. Cloakshees punish it brutally, as IMMvp did to Alicia in Game 2.
@CecilSunkure: First the 3 Stalker Rush, now this: Thanks so much for your awesome work in dissecting top-level GSL Toss builds and putting them up for the community to review! You're a hero in my book.
This does seem like the best probable answer, thanks for the info i'll have to give it a try next time i scout 3 gate aggression.
If you're busting a FE with 3 gate expo then the terran must really suck, considering that the 1 rax FE (with or without gas) "should" be able to (i.e. not a BO loss) hold a 4 gate, 3 rax void or 3 rax robo.
Against a FE, you can only contain at the ramp away from the natural, not the ramp between the main and the natural since the expo (with bunkers) is taken so quickly. Your expo will be behind the T's and the contain outside the natural will only be effective until medivacs come out - for elevatoring or for drops.
Overall, I think this build is more aggressive than 1 gate FE or 2 gate robo, but less aggressive (and more economic) than 4 gate, 3 rax void or 3 rax robo busts. Seems like a good balance for players who like to do contain to take map control and be the aggressor.
On March 22 2011 16:48 Daniel C wrote: If you're busting a FE with 3 gate expo then the terran must really suck, considering that the 1 rax FE (with or without gas) "should" be able to (i.e. not a BO loss) hold a 4 gate, 3 rax void or 3 rax robo.
I'd have to respectfully disagree, 1 rax FE is a well known build. You can do it gasless or with the 1 marine 2 marauder poke, the latter is a staple build for many. It's not an auto-loss to aggression by any means.
Thanks fot the post. One thing that bothers me though: Isnt it more usefull to warp in 3 sentries then Nexus and then 3 Zealots? 1. The sentries will have more energy sooner which is important since you state that you live or die with FF usage and 2. You can get your Nexus faster because sentries cost less minerals.
On March 22 2011 22:45 Sewi wrote: Thanks fot the post. One thing that bothers me though: Isnt it more usefull to warp in 3 sentries then Nexus and then 3 Zealots? 1. The sentries will have more energy sooner which is important since you state that you live or die with FF usage and 2. You can get your Nexus faster because sentries cost less minerals.
I don't think you will have enough gas at that point to actually warp in 3 sentries ?
On March 22 2011 22:45 Sewi wrote: Thanks fot the post. One thing that bothers me though: Isnt it more usefull to warp in 3 sentries then Nexus and then 3 Zealots? 1. The sentries will have more energy sooner which is important since you state that you live or die with FF usage and 2. You can get your Nexus faster because sentries cost less minerals.
I don't think you will have enough gas at that point to actually warp in 3 sentries ?
On March 22 2011 18:02 Daniel C wrote: I'd have to respectfully disagree, 1 rax FE is a well known build. You can do it gasless or with the 1 marine 2 marauder poke, the latter is a staple build for many. It's not an auto-loss to aggression by any means.
You can't claim your nat after 1 rax fe vs a 3 gate expand build. You need to wait until medivacs or more units.
Is this build "too hard" for someone who just switched over to your race? It seems like opening a raw 3 gate expand (meaning without a robo) would be less "idiot" proof considering forcefields could make or break your win.
So: would you recommend this to a novice player as well, or stick with 2 gate robo?
On March 22 2011 18:02 Daniel C wrote: I'd have to respectfully disagree, 1 rax FE is a well known build. You can do it gasless or with the 1 marine 2 marauder poke, the latter is a staple build for many. It's not an auto-loss to aggression by any means.
You can't claim your nat after 1 rax fe vs a 3 gate expand build. You need to wait until medivacs or more units.
Disagree, bunkers will go up way before wg is finished.
On March 22 2011 18:02 Daniel C wrote: I'd have to respectfully disagree, 1 rax FE is a well known build. You can do it gasless or with the 1 marine 2 marauder poke, the latter is a staple build for many. It's not an auto-loss to aggression by any means.
You can't claim your nat after 1 rax fe vs a 3 gate expand build. You need to wait until medivacs or more units.
Disagree, bunkers will go up way before wg is finished.
Bunkers don't magically repel Protoss units. Your bunkers will get picked off and you'll be left with little units and inadequate production
On March 22 2011 18:02 Daniel C wrote: I'd have to respectfully disagree, 1 rax FE is a well known build. You can do it gasless or with the 1 marine 2 marauder poke, the latter is a staple build for many. It's not an auto-loss to aggression by any means.
You can't claim your nat after 1 rax fe vs a 3 gate expand build. You need to wait until medivacs or more units.
Disagree, bunkers will go up way before wg is finished.
Bunkers don't magically repel Protoss units. Your bunkers will get picked off and you'll be left with little units and inadequate production
Of course not, it's a tough hold but it's doable. Anyway, I don't see how I can convince you here so I'll just end by saying that at my level (diamond), it's difficult but entirely possible to defend 4 gate, 3 gate void or 3 gate robo by making 2-3 bunkers and pulling SCVs for repair. By comparison, defending 3 gate expo is much easier. If 1 rax FE is indeed so weak against early pressure then you wouldn't see pros doing it...
Anyway, I didn't come here to bash the build or anything but just to point out that it's unlikely you'll get the chance to bust a FE'ing terran with 3 gate expo when it's already been shown that you can usually defend the nat using bunkers against more aggressive protoss 1 base plays. Not saying 1 rax FE is 100% safe, it can lose to extreme aggression as can any eco build, but it's not as risky as some seem to think. The OP's build is still a good way to contain the terran though and gain map control, but it just won't deny the expansion. That's just my opinion.
If you want to mention levels, I'm playing against 3.7k masters on ladder and they will punish me for expanding. The only way I can defend is if P screws something up. When I played against Cecil, I took a risky expo and barely held it with scvs after he supply blocked himself.
I tried it against tQState, who is like 4.1k iirc and he beat me quite handily. As far as I know, the general consensus of top players is that FEs are too risky vs 3 gate atm.
this looks pretty solid. would you gas steal when you do this? I usually take their gas in PvT, to delay any kind of timing push or fast tech play. I've never tried being the aggressor early on in PvT, but I will definitely give it a shot.
Well, Infinity I don't doubt that you'd have wayyyy more experience than me then, I'll defer to your judgment on the 1 rax FE. I guess P's at my level don't attack properly.. Since you appear to be a T player too I'd be interested to ask your opinion on the 1 marine 2 marauder poke into FE that alot of top players do (Select, Goody if I recall correctly)? Would its popularity decrease if the metagame shifts from quick gateway expands to 3 gate pressure? I don't want to derail the thread so this will be my last question
On March 23 2011 00:58 Daniel C wrote:I guess P's at my level don't attack properly.
This islikely your problem. infinity and I both said that you should lose to 3 Gate aggression if you just one Rax FE, don't know why you kept arguing without posting any replays or citing any sources.
I think ive been doing this wrong as I have lost with it a few times. Once to a strange bunker contain on close position DQ.
When they place a number of bunkers at your ramp , what do you do if they also have 3 barracks always pumping units out :/
I play at 3.2k diamond btw though my PvT has been terribad lately so it may be me putting myself on tilt when facing a terran. Will post replays if i get any from tonight.
What do you do when you've done this opening and the Terran is going for some 1-1-1 opening? I love playing 3 gate expand vs any sort of MM oriented play, but I always just roll over and die to Terran tech openings.
On March 23 2011 00:46 infinity21 wrote: If you want to mention levels, I'm playing against 3.7k masters on ladder and they will punish me for expanding. The only way I can defend is if P screws something up. When I played against Cecil, I took a risky expo and barely held it with scvs after he supply blocked himself.
I tried it against tQState, who is like 4.1k iirc and he beat me quite handily. As far as I know, the general consensus of top players is that FEs are too risky vs 3 gate atm.
On all maps or just certain maps? Also, what kind of FEs?
2rax FE can hold off a 3 gate easily.
1rax FE can hold off a 3gate as well but only on maps with chokes like LT, Shakuras.
How exactly are you doing the 1rax FE when you're doing it?
On March 23 2011 00:58 Daniel C wrote:I guess P's at my level don't attack properly.
This islikely your problem. infinity and I both said that you should lose to 3 Gate aggression if you just one Rax FE, don't know why you kept arguing without posting any replays or citing any sources.
He kept arguing without replays the same way you did (do). Also, the condescending undertone is completely unncecessary.
None of the games you listed were won thanks to your build, especially not in the marine/tank replay. You won because the opponents did some really questionable decisions in the replays where you won outright. The build is good, though, don't get me wrong. It sets up for a longer game quite well while still putting some pressure on which can be deadly if the opponent hasn't prepared.
I'd like to see how your 3gate build actually fares against a properly executed gasless 1rax FE where the player builds the CC at the natural and not in-base.
Because I didn't see anything special in your replays.
Here's a replay pack of me holding various pressure builds with a 1 rax FE. I haven't seen anything that makes me think that it doesn't work yet.
On March 23 2011 03:34 Aldehyde wrote:He kept arguing without replays the same way you did (do). Also, the condescending undertone is completely unncecessary.
My tone might have been harsh, but not condescending. People who are known to know what they are talking about have a certain amount of merit in their posts, and can make simple claims without citing sources every post. Although if someone else wants to post here saying that 3 Gate aggression can easily be held by a 1 Rax FE, with two notable people in the forums disagreeing, then that guy better back up his claim or else he'll just further detiorate the SC2 strategy section.
I had three or four games in a row with a teammate of mine, where I won the game with the early pressure while he was doing a 1 Rax FE. I would say a 1 Rax FE is risky against Protoss 3 Gate Expand on any ladder map.
On March 23 2011 03:34 Aldehyde wrote:He kept arguing without replays the same way you did (do). Also, the condescending undertone is completely unncecessary.
My tone might have been harsh, but not condescending. People who are known to know what they are talking about have a certain amount of merit in their posts, and can make simple claims without citing sources every post. Although if someone else wants to post here saying that 3 Gate aggression can easily be held by a 1 Rax FE, with two notable people in the forums disagreeing, then that guy better back up his claim or else he'll just further detiorate the SC2 strategy section.
I had three or four games in a row with a teammate of mine, where I won the game with the early pressure while he was doing a 1 Rax FE. I would say a 1 Rax FE is risky against Protoss 3 Gate Expand on any ladder map.
Could you show some replays? I would really like to see what is being done differently on the higher levels and my own level. And perhaps I will learn a thing or two.
I am sure you have some merit in saying that it's risky but I want to know specifics. And referring to this as a "simple claim" is a bit... to me it's not " a simple claim".
I am also not sure why you completely disregarded my whole post.
On March 23 2011 00:46 infinity21 wrote: If you want to mention levels, I'm playing against 3.7k masters on ladder and they will punish me for expanding. The only way I can defend is if P screws something up. When I played against Cecil, I took a risky expo and barely held it with scvs after he supply blocked himself.
I tried it against tQState, who is like 4.1k iirc and he beat me quite handily. As far as I know, the general consensus of top players is that FEs are too risky vs 3 gate atm.
On all maps or just certain maps? Also, what kind of FEs?
2rax FE can hold off a 3 gate easily.
1rax FE can hold off a 3gate as well but only on maps with chokes like LT, Shakuras.
How exactly are you doing the 1rax FE when you're doing it?
On March 23 2011 00:58 Daniel C wrote:I guess P's at my level don't attack properly.
This islikely your problem. infinity and I both said that you should lose to 3 Gate aggression if you just one Rax FE, don't know why you kept arguing without posting any replays or citing any sources.
He kept arguing without replays the same way you did (do). Also, the condescending undertone is completely unncecessary.
None of the games you listed were won thanks to your build, especially not in the marine/tank replay. You won because the opponents did some really questionable decisions in the replays where you won outright. The build is good, though, don't get me wrong. It sets up for a longer game quite well while still putting some pressure on which can be deadly if the opponent hasn't prepared.
I'd like to see how your 3gate build actually fares against a properly executed gasless 1rax FE where the player builds the CC at the natural and not in-base.
Because I didn't see anything special in your replays.
Here's a replay pack of me holding various pressure builds with a 1 rax FE. I haven't seen anything that makes me think that it doesn't work yet.
3 gate is most popular on xel'naga but it works on maps with wide nats generally.
I'm talking about 1 rax gas expos (both reactor and tech lab)
Also can you explain to me how a properly executed gasless expo can defend the zealot + stalker pressure?
@Cecil: Okay, but exactly what is it that can punish the expansion when you put it at the natural?
@infinity21: Yeah, on wide naturals it's not possible to do a 1rax FE, that I agree with, but would you still say it's not possible on maps like LT and Shakuras?
I have a bunker up by the time the zealot stalker pressure arives, usually i think. I will check some replays to confirm. *confirmed*
Unfortunately, that's only 2 maps and every other map has a wide Nat, not to mention Lt is no longer a ladder map. Shakuras is also vulnerable to proxies which makes 1 rax expo pretty risky.
Very happy with this post, being a zerg player trying to switch to Random, i like it when good people such as yourself post things like this to either help complete noobs or players trying to learn deeper mechanics of other races Again, very much appreciation here!
On March 23 2011 05:40 Aldehyde wrote: Well, I meant shattered temple.
Hadn't thought about shakuras being vulnerable proxies.
Still, I take 1-2 maps where I can do a 1rax FE over 0.
And after the changes to backwater, perhaps it's possible there as well. Not to mention tal'darim altar.
Even with a choke it should still be very risky. You'll lose a good amount of bio and the bunkers you put up will be force fielded and non-repairable. It sounds so risky against well macroed pressure.
Edit: The only time this shouldn't be so risky is when you expand to a backdoor like on Delta Quadrant or Shakuras cross positions.
It might be. I will continue to do it until I run into a wall, though, and when I hit said wall, I will try to run through it many a time before I will admit defeat.
You have made me far less convinced in the strength of the build, though, and for that I both thank you and hate you (somewhat)
P.S. If it isn't too much of a bother, I'd still like to see those replays. Thanks.
Made some minor updates and clarifications in the OP, and modified the starting opening slightly. I suggest skimming over the post again for a refresh!
On March 23 2011 06:37 MagicToto wrote: For everyone who doesn't have a GSL account, the video is available here on youtube (uploaded by GOMTV so legal) :
Well, the game between Alicia and MVP demonstrates to me that MVP would have lost outright to a 4-gate or 3-gate robo/void at the first bust. The fragility of MVP's defense in that game was highly surprising...just way too greedy. He saw the troops outside his base yet he STILL got addons and STILL didn't pull SCVs pre-emptively to repair. For all he knew there could be a proxy void coming to his base. He must have been overconfident in his 1 bunker.
In any case, bust or not the contain is very strong.
I'm a 3.6k Terran. Reading this is terrifying; I already felt like FE didn't give enough of an advantage to deal with the power of the Protoss late-game army. How should I be responding to this?
this timing push is still very similar compared to a 4 gate push except less units overall. I am guessing if terran knows protoss is doing 3 gate expand, terran might take it easy and go production mode rather than building a proper defense. If they have multiple bunkers i do not think this build will stop it.
I feel its better off not busting and just camp outside and delay his expansion long as possible using FF and get the economy lead.
this build is so much fun as long as you control it well and dont lose sentries. if they dont do some stupid 5 rax build that just goes all in its pretty easy. even if they all in its not impossible and fairly easy..
I personally like doing Huk's 3 gate expo, which is much more stalkers, and you don't take the expansion that fast, and when you poke up, if you see weakness you just warp in 3 zealots, and it's basically a 1 gas 4 gate with less units obv.
And containing somebody is extremely risky, I usually only do it for about 1 minute then pull back and maybe leave a sentry there to FF, if he does a double drop at your main your pretty much screwed
i got tired of playing the 1 zealot 9 sentry 3 gate expo and did this against zerg and it worked so much better because they can't build up drones crazy fast.
On March 25 2011 11:24 Shooks wrote: I personally like doing Huk's 3 gate expo, which is much more stalkers, and you don't take the expansion that fast, and when you poke up, if you see weakness you just warp in 3 zealots, and it's basically a 1 gas 4 gate with less units obv.
And containing somebody is extremely risky, I usually only do it for about 1 minute then pull back and maybe leave a sentry there to FF, if he does a double drop at your main your pretty much screwed
That's why you diligently understand your timings, so you know when he can have medivacs, because the all the time before the earliest of early medivacs should be spent containing, and thereafter you should just have vision around his spawn to spot drops! Only once he loads up into the medivacs should you retreat (mind you, you shouldn't have your whole army outside his door).
How do you actually manage a 3-4 rax ghost with that Bo ? I have some trouble with this rush (I have actually a problem with every single Bo against this push)
On March 26 2011 07:46 SaJa wrote: How do you actually manage a 3-4 rax ghost with that Bo ? I have some trouble with this rush (I have actually a problem with every single Bo against this push)
Ghost 1 base timing push is a very bad BO, and the only time you actually win is if you get perfect EMP's. Also, it's usually an all-in (or is).
If the terran techs to ghost too early, he'll die to this build because he has no marauders (to slow zealots and destroy stalkers).
You can easily contain him with sentries, just get a robo right after containing and expanding and get an observer. As soon as he scans to check if your army's there, FF the ramp because he's trying to EMP.
So basically, contain, have good game sense (if he scans, he's gonna move out), and take down things one by one. Also, remember to spread.
Well it is not that all-in imo. He has the same start that the basic 3 rax push (so he will get marauders and marines before teching to ghost, the push arrived around 8-9min) and it is not that hard to not miss his emp shot.. Also, he will stim to get out of his ramp with few marines just before you have time to FF (unless you did it perfectly ~~), you will try to kill those little marines but you army is mainly composed of zealots and sentry, so once he will pull back his scv to the edge of the cliff, if you decide to kill them he will be able to EMP you since you are not out of the ghost range anymore, right after this, he will get out of his base to kill you with a second emp push :/
Maybe a replay would be good to show me ^^ (ask a friend terran to do the ghost Bo ^^)
On March 26 2011 08:07 SaJa wrote: Well it is not that all-in imo. He has the same start that the basic 3 rax push (so he will get marauders and marines before teching to ghost, the push arrived around 8-9min) and it is not that hard to not miss his emp shot.. Also, he will stim to get out of his ramp with few marines just before you have time to FF (unless you did it perfectly ~~), you will try to kill those little marines but you army is mainly composed of zealots and sentry, so once he will pull back his scv to the edge of the cliff, if you decide to kill them he will be able to EMP you since you are not out of the ghost range anymore, right after this, he will get out of his base to kill you with a second emp push :/
Maybe a replay would be good to show me ^^ (ask a friend terran to do the ghost Bo ^^)
Oh, that's true. Usually, I FF for a while (continuous) and then move back when I think I'm ready to so I can start getting defenses for my expo. Also, it IS easy to miss that EMP if you're against a good protoss because a) all his units will be spread out, especially sentries, and b) if you have vision of terran (via obs), then you can forcefield before he even has time to EMP the sentries.
Anyone watch Minigun vs. Fenix last night? He abused an aggressive 3 gate opener + gas steal to encourage terran to sit in his base. Pretty educational series for those of you interested in succesful macrotoss vs. terran and this strong opener.
How does this build fair against the various 1-1-1 builds (i.e. marine tank banshee/raven, marine tank, etc.)? there are replays and posts both advocating and denouncing this build against 1-1-1. What is the consensus?
This is a build I haven't explored much enough but seems so strong. It seems like it could easily be the future stable of pvt just like 3 gate expo plays a huge role in pvz.
I hope this doesn't count as necro bumping, but I have been trying this build out, and I found that T can hit with 2 reapers before many ranged units are out.
What is the proper adaptation to scouting 2 rax, 1 gas, 1 techlab at 3:30?
On March 30 2011 15:52 han_han wrote: I hope this doesn't count as necro bumping, but I have been trying this build out, and I found that T can hit with 2 reapers before many ranged units are out.
What is the proper adaptation to scouting 2 rax, 1 gas, 1 techlab at 3:30?
You should have zealots out by then so unless he has time to micro them for few minutes he most likely will just run away from chasing zealots or start kiting them. So when you see reapers just make him do something else than kill probes and chrono out a stalker. Reapers without speed shouldn't do too much damage unless you screw something up. If he goes behind the mineral line while the zealots are chasing him, try to cut his way with probes.
What would be the right thing to do if the terran has walled off the top of his ramp? I'm in gold league, and every terran i play has a supply depot, barracks, a bunker, and either another barracks or a factory walling off the ramp. Their units are then put all around these buildings.
When I poke up the ramp and see this, I run away because I can't kill any building without suffering heavy losses. When he sees me run away, he comes after me with his army, already having stim and conc. shells.
On March 31 2011 11:58 Lafer wrote: What would be the right thing to do if the terran has walled off the top of his ramp? I'm in gold league, and every terran i play has a supply depot, barracks, a bunker, and either another barracks or a factory walling off the ramp. Their units are then put all around these buildings.
When I poke up the ramp and see this, I run away because I can't kill any building without suffering heavy losses. When he sees me run away, he comes after me with his army, already having stim and conc. shells.
Any info?
Sounds like you are doing something very fundamentally wrong. Post up a replay and I'll take a look.
This build is extremely successful. Very helpful, and versatile. There is one problem though, how do you counter the iechoic tvp build? i did the regular push, and the two bunkers defending held off, while a helion drop in main killed off over half of my probes. Id show a replay, server is down.
Well, in my opinion this build is as strong as 5 Rax Reapers were against Zerg. It is insanely hard as Terran to counter it properly, or to counter it at all.
I think Thors are definitely a good answer, or mediv lowering. It's hard to break a FF contain otherwise, just tech and double expand has been my response.
What are the benefits of this build vs 2 Gate Robo expand? I get crushed by ghosts with the other one, but Banshees crushed me twice with this one. Is it a good transition to drop two forges, robo + gate, and go for colossus heavy, or gateway heavy to DT/HT?
On April 04 2011 01:25 CardinalSC wrote: What are the benefits of this build vs 2 Gate Robo expand? I get crushed by ghosts with the other one, but Banshees crushed me twice with this one. Is it a good transition to drop two forges, robo + gate, and go for colossus heavy, or gateway heavy to DT/HT?
The benefit vs a 2 Gate Robo expand is that you can get more units out and thus pressure your opponent a lot more, while maintaining the same economy.
The drawback is that you aren't teching as much as if you went for the Robo, so you'll be behind in tech. And this would be a problem if you saw an M-M-M army build because you'd want Colossus as soon as possible to defend your expansion.
If you do the 3 Gate Pressure Expand build in OP, and Terran is going for early Banshee, don't bother containing them, just run up the ramp FF around the bunker to stop SCV repair and straight up kill him. I actually do this all the time. The Terran player simply won't have enough units to stop a three gate push assuming both players timings are equally tight.
Alternatively, you can prevent early Banshee (especially cloaked), if you gas steal the Terran player early.
12rax13gas15orbital marine supply @100gas factory (all scvs off gas) @400mins command in-base @100% factory make hellion 26/27 supply and put 3 scvs back on gas start 2nd gas 4 marines and incoming hellion can defend choke against early pressure (yes you can micro 4 marines against 1 zealot/stalker, anything earlier and you need to pull scvs like usual) @50gas reactor rax @25gas/after hellion tech lab fact a blind bunker (do it if you don't know what's up with your opponent)
-> hellion scout (it will be out in time, look for an expansion if 0 expansion - or if you get in and see 3 gates anyway go 2nd bunker right away then a siege tank (you should have 6-8 marines + 1 tank and scvs ready to repair) by the time of the protoss attack. if you see a gas heavy comp sentries/stalkers research siege, if not, assume 3gate voidrays and go for a quick starport / viking (marines kiting voidrays with tons of stalkers on the field is terrible).
anyway point is, hellion scouts, and quick bunkers in-time with pure marines with siege tank follow-up defense which i assume denies sentry forcefield choke crap with a command center already finished in base.
In the Alicia vs MVP came he arrive with only 2 zealot, and I plan to mimic that number when I try this strategy. if you go too zealot heavy it really limits the amount of damage you can do when you poke up the ramp. 2-3 zealots give you meat shield to be able to poke up the ramp and snipe units or buildings, then you can back off and warp another couple zealots in and forcefield your retreat if neccesary.
Additionally if by chance your terran opponent is going a 3-4 rax all in being able to form a arc at the bottom of his ramp and forcefield his army in half, a mostly ranged army is much better than 5 zealots and 5 sentries whereas the zealots will die and leave only sentries to face a stimmed mm ball.
I don't believe this strategy is anything super new here, but the execution was exceptional because Alicia waited for MVP to scout him before he dropped the nexus.
The most natural response (as I have seen Select do, and probably others) is to get medvacs out ASAP. Some people saying that seige tech and or cloak banshees are a good response, I don't entirely disagree BUT you have to consider how much tech and resources is going into that while the protoss will gain a comfortable macro advantage by the time those finish. Problem is with seige is you may prevent protoss from poking up your ramp, but you are still largely immobile. Ladder dropping a large MMM army will definetely end the pressure and possibly catch the protoss army with their pants down and even the odds before any collosus roll out. This also gives oppurtunity to counter and or harass with drops while protoss army is at the front door. I personally as a force of habit will drop a robo if a game lasts more than 7-8 minutes, or alternatively research hallucination and make sure there is no banshee play in the works.
On April 04 2011 10:28 JiYan wrote: yea from experience, if terran gets medivac quickly it can be very very dangerous for the p user with this build
It's just a three gate expo that's good for setting up a contain. Medivacs aren't anymore dangerous to this than any other 3 gate expo, unless you're a moron with your FF contain.
On April 04 2011 10:28 JiYan wrote: yea from experience, if terran gets medivac quickly it can be very very dangerous for the p user with this build
It's just a three gate expo that's good for setting up a contain. Medivacs aren't anymore dangerous to this than any other 3 gate expo, unless you're a moron with your FF contain.
Yep, don't overstay your welcome (remain past medivacs) at the bottom of the ramp
*minuscule probe cut ** don't mine from this gas immediately or you'll more gas than you need and a few less minerals *** start mining from 2nd gas now, this will give you just enough gas for everything you need to do
Chrono Boost Usage:
4 consecutive chronos on probes @ 10 12 15 & 21)
1 chrono on gateway for stalker (note you get 25 energy about 5s in to stalker build so it finishes before stalker finishes)
2 chronos on core for warpgate tech after starting 2nd and 3rd gateway (chrono finishes right before warpgate research completes)
Minutiae: making use of probes rallied from the nexus to for building/transfers reduces wandering probes in most cases
12th probe rallied builds nexus & scouts
15th probe rallied builds pylon and mines gas
16th probe rallied to mine gas
17th probe rallied to build core
first probe after stalker rallied to build 2nd gas
last probe before cuts (#29, building as warpgate are transforming) rallied to expansion to build nexus
Awesome build Cecil, thanks for this great topic. One question, it's an extremely minor thing but since your build order is so incredibly descriptive I figured I'd ask: You basically specify exactly when to make the units, but I noticed that in the build, only 4 zealots are produced. When is the 5th zealot produced? Is it warped in at the proxy pylon?
I was wondering if you could analyze my usage of a similar build. I'm kinda a nub and my friend told me that 3 gate expo is fairly safe against terran, so I performed what I thought was one. I didn't really look up the build, so it might be quite OFF lol. I'd just like you to highlight weak areas of my game if possible. THANKS! Btw, he was a random player, my usualy PvT build is 16 nex on large maps. So i laid down a 13 gate, and after scouting i went 3gate expand.
*minuscule probe cut ** don't mine from this gas immediately or you'll more gas than you need and a few less minerals *** start mining from 2nd gas now, this will give you just enough gas for everything you need to do
Chrono Boost Usage:
4 consecutive chronos on probes @ 10 12 15 & 21)
1 chrono on gateway for stalker (note you get 25 energy about 5s in to stalker build so it finishes before stalker finishes)
2 chronos on core for warpgate tech after starting 2nd and 3rd gateway (chrono finishes right before warpgate research completes)
Minutiae: making use of probes rallied from the nexus to for building/transfers reduces wandering probes in most cases
12th probe rallied builds nexus & scouts
15th probe rallied builds pylon and mines gas
16th probe rallied to mine gas
17th probe rallied to build core
first probe after stalker rallied to build 2nd gas
last probe before cuts (#29, building as warpgate are transforming) rallied to expansion to build nexus
On April 20 2011 02:56 mynhauzen wrote: in original post I cant understand where do u get 5th zealot from?
Watch replays and find out? I don't follow the exact build order every game as I deviate in little ways depending on what's going on. I must have gotten my second gateway a little earlier and ordered a Zealot from it in one game, I'm not sure. I changed the OP to say 4-5 Zealots
I've heard about this build but didn't know how to do it so thank you.. Great guide I have used this strategy a few times now and it works great. First time I tried it I won right away with my second wave of units I warped in.
I just love how far protoss have evolved. Remember when we expanded after rushing to Colossi off 1 base? LOL
I've been doing this a lot lately, I usually get Halluc. to scout the Terran and see if he is going banshees or something and then get a double Forge and upgrade like a mad man.Thiw works great because if the T goes banshee you can build cannons to spot them.
And I usually try to contain them until i see they are getting either Siege Tanks or Medevacs, after all i delayed their expo a lot compared to mine.(I sometimes get a third just when I leave the contain because the Terran at my level like to secure the nat for a while XD)
I am going to bring a little bit of broodwar early game reference into this just slightly. In broodwar, it is standard to see a 1 rax expand from terran into factory, with a bunker for their initial marines at the front. The protoss (unless scouted going nexus first) usually wears the daddy pants, and opens up with dragoon pressure and contain. The terran must repair and hold with his initial infantry until the first siege tank pops out, signaling the end of the pressure. It also works in sc2. For all of the terran who are scratching their heads about what to do with FF contain builds, it is best to get tanks asap after 1 rax expo. The tank will be finished when the push comes to your ramp, and your second one will be en route with siege mode halfway done. Now the problem that most terran have after this point is dealing with the 3 sentries warped in from the gas stockpile that the protoss has accumulated and become contained. Siege mode, if factory is started after a 1 rax expo and taking double gasses at the normal time, will finish right when the 3 additional sentries get warped in at a normal FF contain timing. This will force the protoss to be driven off from the front of your base and allow you to float and secure your natural. Tank/marine is a very strong opener against protoss, even against a 3 gate robo bunker bust all-in with proper tank target firing (a.k.a. making sure that it doesn't continually attack the immortal after the initial shot).
I don't have any specific food numbers or game clock numbers, but if your opponent goes for 3 gate bust, you can prevent yourself from getting behind with tanks. From there, you can either choose to transition into mass bio if that is your style, or stay on mech. At this point you are not behind in upgrades or bases, and your army is of higher tech than your opponent's (even though we protoss might have more army at this point, your siege tech advantage cancels out our army advantage).
I will ask my terran friend for a replay of him doing it tonight if he has one. It is a pretty cool way of doing it, and just reminds me a lot of how early game PvT worked in broodwar. He is high masters player and has used it quite a few times on ladder now with success, and has worked out his timings.
This is still the build with the most upside of all vs. terran IMO. A safe build that guarantees an expo and can even win the game outright with some light early pressure sometimes
so i read this during the week and didnt play till two days ago....and for some reason i thot this was for pvz and did this twice....exact same build order and crushed them both.....when i watched the replays the guys scouted my 3 gate expo with ovies and just started droning hard like crazy and teching....so maybe this has some viability for zerg matchups...at least in mid-high diamond
When going for any kind of 1 rax FE I'm really not sure what to do against this. Now I doubt the answer is to just not go 1 rax FE on most maps, since 1 rax FE is an extremely common build in GSL in just about every matchup. Also, as far as I understand from this thread and others, 2 rax expand isn't exactly good against this either? And obviously 3 rax is not a build you really see at competitive levels at all... I have yet to find a game in GSL where the T goes for 1 rax FE and effectively stop 3-4 gate strategies, so I'm still wondering what I should be doing...
Also, is there a "e-mail me when this thread gets replies" button somewhere that I have missed?
I love this build! i use it all the time and sometimes u can catch the terran off guard and straight up kil him and in the middle of all of it u have money to throw up a nexus and a robo almost whenever
Can anyone offer some new replays of this build vs various Terran openings? I've been having a lot of problems vs more aggressive openings, like 3 - 4 rax builds where they come out before I have a chance to warp in enough units to contain them at the ramp.
What time am I supposed to arrive at the Terran base? Many games I'll arrive at the Terran nat and he'll already have 2 bunkers in construction and nearly done. Am I late, or should I not be worried about these 2 bunkers? Should I still push in?
What adjustments (if any) do you make vs 2 rax? Or should I have no problems containing him with the 3 gate?
In what situations do you build more stalkers instead of sentries? I recently watched a Sase vs Nada match where Sase contained with 4 stalkers, 1 sentry and a zealot.
As long as enough of his army is up the ramp you can easily annihilate anything that is down at the natural. However with 3-4 rax and bunkers I think you're supposed to have your expansion way before his anyway and thus still gain the economic advantage? And if he goes aggressive 3-4 rax, I'm guessing the whole point of this is that 3 gate can deal with it defensively, no?
On April 25 2011 12:59 Soulglider wrote: Can anyone offer some new replays of this build vs various Terran openings? I've been having a lot of problems vs more aggressive openings, like 3 - 4 rax builds where they come out before I have a chance to warp in enough units to contain them at the ramp.
What time am I supposed to arrive at the Terran base? Many games I'll arrive at the Terran nat and he'll already have 2 bunkers in construction and nearly done. Am I late, or should I not be worried about these 2 bunkers? Should I still push in?
What adjustments (if any) do you make vs 2 rax? Or should I have no problems containing him with the 3 gate?
If you go for this opening you would do it against any opening the Terran does. Doesn't matter how many rax they get. If he has 2 bunkers being constructed at the Nat sounds like you're really late, although if they aren't done, how are you losing..?
On April 25 2011 13:11 galzohar wrote: As long as enough of his army is up the ramp you can easily annihilate anything that is down at the natural. However with 3-4 rax and bunkers I think you're supposed to have your expansion way before his anyway and thus still gain the economic advantage? And if he goes aggressive 3-4 rax, I'm guessing the whole point of this is that 3 gate can deal with it defensively, no?
If he one bases you with lots of barracks, you can FF contain until he gets medivacs. Though, you have to be a half-way decent player and be able to watch the minimap/ramp of the enemy, as low level players like to stim and try to run down quickly.
On April 26 2011 03:51 galzohar wrote: Against 2-3 rax do you actually make it with enough sentries to their ramp before they have enough to safely move down?
Well since the OP says you'll have about 5 sentries, and you need 4 to infinitely contain, I'd say yes you do.
On April 26 2011 03:51 galzohar wrote: Against 2-3 rax do you actually make it with enough sentries to their ramp before they have enough to safely move down?
Well since the OP says you'll have about 5 sentries, and you need 4 to infinitely contain, I'd say yes you do.
I believe you need 6 sentries to infinitely FF a ramp, no?
On April 26 2011 03:51 galzohar wrote: Against 2-3 rax do you actually make it with enough sentries to their ramp before they have enough to safely move down?
Well since the OP says you'll have about 5 sentries, and you need 4 to infinitely contain, I'd say yes you do.
I believe you need 6 sentries to infinitely FF a ramp, no?
I'm pretty sure it's 4, I've always used four and it seemed to work for me. I've also always heard it was four from casters and such.
Either way 4-5 Sentries works great for a strong FF contain. You can actually have a strong FF contain with just one sentry if you do it right.
You need 6 Sentries to really indefinitely forcefield a ramp, as they will regnerate barely over 50 energy together in 15 seconds. However, that is a nonissue since they have some starting energy, you just need to threaten the FF to contain and you don't want to stay there for the rest of the game anyways.
The original question from galzohar on the other side wasn't related to the Sentry count directly, I believe he wanted to know whether you have enough units in total to combat a T who is waiting with his units on the bottom of his ramp before you arrive there. I believe it is yes, but I am not sure and if it wasn't the question he intended, I will ask it instead.
(FF cost)/(FF length) = (# sentries)/(rate of energy recovery) (50 energy)/(15 seconds) = (# sentries)/(0.5625 energy/second) # sentries = 6
It works with less because you start with some energy build up already. Also you shouldn't trust casters, they often spout out a lot of incorrect information :p
I know that 1 is really all you need, but like you said, that only works at higher levels because you can keep your eye on the ramp/minimap and your opponent is probably not going to risk stimming and running down.
On April 26 2011 04:23 Anihc wrote: I'm pretty sure it's 6, here's some math:
(FF cost)/(FF length) = (# sentries)/(rate of energy recovery) (50 energy)/(15 seconds) = (# sentries)/(0.5625 energy/second) # sentries = 6
It works with less because you start with some energy build up already. Also you shouldn't trust casters, they often spout out a lot of incorrect information :p
I know that 1 is really all you need, but like you said, that only works at higher levels because you can keep your eye on the ramp/minimap and your opponent is probably not going to risk stimming and running down.
Oh, didn't realize that. Thanks for the clarification ;P
So then 4 Sentries constantly FFing would give you a decay of 33.75 energy per round or FFs, so if you end up at their ramp with 4 you should be able to constantly FF for about 3 minutes. If you have 5 sentries at their ramp you should be able to FF constantly for about 15 minutes.
On April 26 2011 04:23 ForTheDr3am wrote: The original question from galzohar on the other side wasn't related to the Sentry count directly, I believe he wanted to know whether you have enough units in total to combat a T who is waiting with his units on the bottom of his ramp before you arrive there. I believe it is yes, but I am not sure and if it wasn't the question he intended, I will ask it instead.
Cecil, I've been playing around with this build, and I find that cutting probes at 24/25 (Zealot + Sentry included in supply) gives you a perfect timing.
24/25 cut probes get 2 gates After 2 gates resume probe production 2 Sentry Chrono boost Both
Now once the 2nd sentry is done, the warpgate just finishes.
On April 26 2011 06:30 Axel.Bowex wrote: Cecil, I've been playing around with this build, and I find that cutting probes at 24/25 (Zealot + Sentry included in supply) gives you a perfect timing.
24/25 cut probes get 2 gates After 2 gates resume probe production 2 Sentry Chrono boost Both
Now once the 2nd sentry is done, the warpgate just finishes.
Your thoughts?
Seems a little unnecessary. I do this opening without any probe cuts and it seems just fine.
On April 26 2011 06:30 Axel.Bowex wrote: Cecil, I've been playing around with this build, and I find that cutting probes at 24/25 (Zealot + Sentry included in supply) gives you a perfect timing.
24/25 cut probes get 2 gates After 2 gates resume probe production 2 Sentry Chrono boost Both
Now once the 2nd sentry is done, the warpgate just finishes.
Your thoughts?
Seems a little unnecessary. I do this opening without any probe cuts and it seems just fine.
I'd really want to see a replay of this. In extensive testing I found it impossible to do this opening without probe cuts in a way that lines up well - if you constantly produce probes at the "wait for 300 minerals for 2gate" part your gates are so late that your final sentry finishes 5-10 seconds (or more) after warpgate research finishes.
[edit] I could see it lining up maybe if you didn't chrono Warpgate Research at all, though
On April 26 2011 06:30 Axel.Bowex wrote: Cecil, I've been playing around with this build, and I find that cutting probes at 24/25 (Zealot + Sentry included in supply) gives you a perfect timing.
24/25 cut probes get 2 gates After 2 gates resume probe production 2 Sentry Chrono boost Both
Now once the 2nd sentry is done, the warpgate just finishes.
Your thoughts?
Seems a little unnecessary. I do this opening without any probe cuts and it seems just fine.
I'd really want to see a replay of this. In extensive testing I found it impossible to do this opening without probe cuts in a way that lines up well - if you constantly produce probes at the "wait for 300 minerals for 2gate" part your gates are so late that your final sentry finishes 5-10 seconds (or more) after warpgate research finishes.
[edit] I could see it lining up maybe if you didn't chrono Warpgate Research at all, though
There are replays in the OP, and I don't think I spent much chrono on warpgate.
On April 28 2011 09:43 Gradius wrote: So what will happen to this build if the PTR changes go through? This is such a good build.
Since the whole point of this opening is having really crisp macro to get everything you need very quickly, it will be outdated, though the underlying concept will remain (a new variant can be created).
The build timings shouldn't change too much, you can actually use the same timings for the gateways. Assuming they finish as warpgate tech is completing, you can just produce the first round of units that would normally be warpins (pre patch) from the gateways while warpgate is still researching, and warp in at the proxy pylon. You have the same number of units at the same time more or less. Since with the current build the first round of unit warpins were at home anyway, the timings will work out similarly.
On April 28 2011 09:43 Gradius wrote: So what will happen to this build if the PTR changes go through? This is such a good build.
Since the whole point of this opening is having really crisp macro to get everything you need very quickly, it will be outdated, though the underlying concept will remain (a new variant can be created).
although it won't be as pertinent since PVP won't be auto-4gate anymore
User was warned for this post
lolwarning
please put more thought into your post and understand the matchup - this wouldn't help pvp very much. Try it and post replays, although this build will work in PvP at a lower level...
Thanks in advance for your cooperation, The Mod Staff
i put plenty of thought in my post tyvm. with the PTR changes 4gate won't be the be-all-end-all PVP opener that it used to be, so a tailored anti-4gate build will obviously be less sparkly. I honestly don't understand the critique in my warning at all.
On April 25 2011 10:07 galzohar wrote: When going for any kind of 1 rax FE I'm really not sure what to do against this. Now I doubt the answer is to just not go 1 rax FE on most maps, since 1 rax FE is an extremely common build in GSL in just about every matchup. Also, as far as I understand from this thread and others, 2 rax expand isn't exactly good against this either? And obviously 3 rax is not a build you really see at competitive levels at all... I have yet to find a game in GSL where the T goes for 1 rax FE and effectively stop 3-4 gate strategies, so I'm still wondering what I should be doing...
Also, is there a "e-mail me when this thread gets replies" button somewhere that I have missed?
I was wondering about this myself...In the last GSL WC, MVP held off a 4 gate on Taldarim by san and MKP held gate + proxy void by mc on Crevasse using 1 rax FE. Both big maps but both P had proxies. The trick is to stay no gas until 4 rax, power marines, bunker up, and ride the economic (mineral) advantage. Take the nat with CC ASAP so you don't get contained. Going gas and tech leaves you with too few units, even if you have mara. You can even transition into 6 rax no gas push with a few scvs against the P expo like virus vs anypro on Taldarim. I believe this works better on maps with a small to medium natural choke so not delta or metal. Otherwise, cc in base and tech to drops, but you'll be slightly behind in Eco as is the whole point of this pvt build.
On April 28 2011 09:43 Gradius wrote: So what will happen to this build if the PTR changes go through? This is such a good build.
Since the whole point of this opening is having really crisp macro to get everything you need very quickly, it will be outdated, though the underlying concept will remain (a new variant can be created).
although it won't be as pertinent since PVP won't be auto-4gate anymore
please put more thought into your post and understand the matchup - this wouldn't help pvp very much. Try it and post replays, although this build will work in PvP at a lower level...
Thanks in advance for your cooperation, The Mod Staff
i put plenty of thought in my post tyvm. with the PTR changes 4gate won't be the be-all-end-all PVP opener that it used to be, so a tailored anti-4gate build will obviously be less sparkly. I honestly don't understand the critique in my warning at all.
On April 28 2011 09:43 Gradius wrote: So what will happen to this build if the PTR changes go through? This is such a good build.
Since the whole point of this opening is having really crisp macro to get everything you need very quickly, it will be outdated, though the underlying concept will remain (a new variant can be created).
although it won't be as pertinent since PVP won't be auto-4gate anymore
User was warned for this post
lolwarning
please put more thought into your post and understand the matchup - this wouldn't help pvp very much. Try it and post replays, although this build will work in PvP at a lower level...
Thanks in advance for your cooperation, The Mod Staff
i put plenty of thought in my post tyvm. with the PTR changes 4gate won't be the be-all-end-all PVP opener that it used to be, so a tailored anti-4gate build will obviously be less sparkly. I honestly don't understand the critique in my warning at all.
But why are you posting this in a pvt thread?
it all makes sense now >_<
although i still didn't think being a raving idiot was worthy of a warning :p
On May 13 2011 07:39 Catchafire2000 wrote: Is this build still applicable?
Not so much Tal'Darim or Shakuras due to bunkering ramps. Otherwise yeah.
I'm curious as to what bunkering ramps had to do with the patch? Did the 20 second increase in research change the timing a bit to allow Terrans to bunker their ramps on those maps, or is it just something they figured out that has nothing to do with the patch?
Also, would you say that there's anything differently you could do in the build order to optimize things, in light of the new patch?
On May 13 2011 07:39 Catchafire2000 wrote: Is this build still applicable?
Not so much Tal'Darim or Shakuras due to bunkering ramps. Otherwise yeah.
I'm curious as to what bunkering ramps had to do with the patch? Did the 20 second increase in research change the timing a bit to allow Terrans to bunker their ramps on those maps, or is it just something they figured out that has nothing to do with the patch?
Also, would you say that there's anything differently you could do in the build order to optimize things, in light of the new patch?
From my experience you just get a unit or two more from your early bunkers before warpgate finishes, and then it's all about the same.
On May 15 2011 06:35 HolyArrow wrote: I'm curious as to what bunkering ramps had to do with the patch? Did the 20 second increase in research change the timing a bit to allow Terrans to bunker their ramps on those maps, or is it just something they figured out that has nothing to do with the patch?
I think, as long as your purpose is not to kill directly the Terran but to pressure him, keep him on one base and take economical advantage, even if he has time to defend and turtle, the trade is still good for you.
How do you handle blue flame hellion drops with this build early? Since all your army is outside pressuring(while he has bunker at his ramp), he can easly drop hellion and kill your economy in 8 seconds.
Would love to see replays after patch too. Thanks.
you see, if terran rushes blue flame hellion, he can drop around 7 minutes 30 seconds. so my question is how do you properly scout what is terran doing inside his base(blue flame or banshee) since you don't have observer?
i put few cannons in mineral line to prevent this blindly, ..
or can you kill him before 7minute 30s incase of banshee or blue flame?
On May 29 2011 09:10 whereismymind wrote: you see, if terran rushes blue flame hellion, he can drop around 7 minutes 30 seconds. so my question is how do you properly scout what is terran doing inside his base(blue flame or banshee) since you don't have observer?
i put few cannons in mineral line to prevent this blindly, ..
or can you kill him before 7minute 30s incase of banshee or blue flame?
halluc for scouting very very early inside?
3 Gate strikes well before 7:30. If he is trying to back stab you with a medivac and hellions. He will be dead because that is a lot of resources not at his front. If he doesnt want to die, a helion will come to the front to stop you from killing him, when you see the helion guess what, you scouted.
Helions are bad at defense anyway, 3 gate kills or punishes this drop rush almost outright given congruent skill levels.
Thats what this build excels at, scouting. You don't need to see the factory if a tank is shooting you. You don't need to see the ghost academy if a ghost is shooting you. And if a ton of marines and marauders shoot you, guess what you just scouted an early marine marauder rush. And if he is trying to hide hi-tech units. He will die since 3 gate is fairly aggressive and cant be held off if terran is doing excessive teching. And if he is doing a delayed tech, you are going to see it with the robo!
This build has like no glaring holes in it, the only way you can lose is if terran is the better player, and there is no problem with that. Just dont get too aggressive with the poke, like lose all your shit to a ton of infantry.
As a Terran player the best way I find to deal with this if you happen to be say, 1rax expanding, is to defend the 3gate push with bunkers and marines, and then use siege tanks to break the obnoxious contain they set up afterwards. You can also force them to go back by utilizing reapers if you are heavy on barracks, or with drops if your tech is taking you in that direction.
The strength of this build is that by forcefielding the ramp, it makes the terran's expansion line up with the protoss' even if the terran's was much earlier, so you do have to do something to get out of that contain and consolidate your expansion.
Hm i have been playing around with this build abit, this is what i came up with:
9 pylon - 10 crono nexes 12 gate 14 gas - crono nexes 16 pylon - crono nexes after pylon finish ~16 cybercore 17 zealot warpgate research crono it twice 22 stalker - after stalker finishes you have to wait 3 sec then you can start your sentry 24 pylon 2 gates when you got the minerals (after these are done make 1 zealot and 1 sentry out of them) 29 wait with probe and get 2nd gas build a 2nd sentry rght after 1st one is ready build expo when you have the minerals
get a proxy pylon and start moving when your sentry and zealot are finished from gate 2 and 3 ~warp in 2 zealot 1 sentry
at 6:30 you will have 4 sentry 4 zealot 1 stalker
This build is used mainly if you scout a 1 racks techlap expand, they will have stim aprox around 7-8 mins depending on their build (on high diamond most terran are not able to kill your scouting probe if you send it in for a 2nd peak when he only has 1 marine)
if you have done enough dmg you could add 3 gates and get full saturated natural without gass (16 probes) and 16 probes in main with 2 gas and continue pressure for the win.
I've been thinking . . . A sentry build time was decreased five seconds, and wg build time was increased by 20 seconds. So theoretically, you could build three sentries before wg. That is because its 37*3=111 and wg is 160 and stalker is 42 second. Therefore you have 118 seconds left to build 111 seconds worth of units.
That said, is it then better to have that extra warpin and be 20 seconds late, but with 1 extra unit, or is it better to be 20 second earlier without that extra unit. Of course to be 20 seconds earlier you need to sacrifice 2 cbs on wg that could be used on probes, warpgates, etc.
Also, I've been having trouble with banshees, when should I throw down my robo facility?
On May 29 2011 09:10 whereismymind wrote: you see, if terran rushes blue flame hellion, he can drop around 7 minutes 30 seconds. so my question is how do you properly scout what is terran doing inside his base(blue flame or banshee) since you don't have observer?
i put few cannons in mineral line to prevent this blindly, ..
or can you kill him before 7minute 30s incase of banshee or blue flame?
halluc for scouting very very early inside?
3 Gate strikes well before 7:30. If he is trying to back stab you with a medivac and hellions. He will be dead because that is a lot of resources not at his front. If he doesnt want to die, a helion will come to the front to stop you from killing him, when you see the helion guess what, you scouted.
Helions are bad at defense anyway, 3 gate kills or punishes this drop rush almost outright given congruent skill levels.
Thats what this build excels at, scouting. You don't need to see the factory if a tank is shooting you. You don't need to see the ghost academy if a ghost is shooting you. And if a ton of marines and marauders shoot you, guess what you just scouted an early marine marauder rush. And if he is trying to hide hi-tech units. He will die since 3 gate is fairly aggressive and cant be held off if terran is doing excessive teching. And if he is doing a delayed tech, you are going to see it with the robo!
This build has like no glaring holes in it, the only way you can lose is if terran is the better player, and there is no problem with that. Just dont get too aggressive with the poke, like lose all your shit to a ton of infantry.
If they double bunker the ramp with marines you can't push past it and you still have no idea what tech they're going for. That's the main problem I have with this build.
On May 29 2011 09:10 whereismymind wrote: you see, if terran rushes blue flame hellion, he can drop around 7 minutes 30 seconds. so my question is how do you properly scout what is terran doing inside his base(blue flame or banshee) since you don't have observer?
i put few cannons in mineral line to prevent this blindly, ..
or can you kill him before 7minute 30s incase of banshee or blue flame?
halluc for scouting very very early inside?
3 Gate strikes well before 7:30. If he is trying to back stab you with a medivac and hellions. He will be dead because that is a lot of resources not at his front. If he doesnt want to die, a helion will come to the front to stop you from killing him, when you see the helion guess what, you scouted.
Helions are bad at defense anyway, 3 gate kills or punishes this drop rush almost outright given congruent skill levels.
Thats what this build excels at, scouting. You don't need to see the factory if a tank is shooting you. You don't need to see the ghost academy if a ghost is shooting you. And if a ton of marines and marauders shoot you, guess what you just scouted an early marine marauder rush. And if he is trying to hide hi-tech units. He will die since 3 gate is fairly aggressive and cant be held off if terran is doing excessive teching. And if he is doing a delayed tech, you are going to see it with the robo!
This build has like no glaring holes in it, the only way you can lose is if terran is the better player, and there is no problem with that. Just dont get too aggressive with the poke, like lose all your shit to a ton of infantry.
If they double bunker the ramp with marines you can't push past it and you still have no idea what tech they're going for. That's the main problem I have with this build.
If you see two bunkers, and they have nothing but marines in them, you know a lot actually. You can pretty much guarantee they have tech back there and you should be very safe getting a robo and expanding. leave a sentry to force field the ramp, or if you dont want to do that or contain, leave a worker outside so if they do a 2 tank raven push with all marines you will be able to see it coming. Simply put, strong bunker with marine defense > robo time. Dont have to know right then what tech they are grabbing since robo generally keeps you safe from all of it.
If obs comes out and you see expansion, you are ok because you have expanded as well. If he one barracks expanded, your 3 gate will do considerable damage and may even be able to win the game.
If cloaked banshee comes. You are ok because obs is at the very least on the way. Maybe won't completely shut it down but you should be ok.
If he is expanding AND banshee rushing he would be dead to your 3 gate.
If he is doing some kind of 2 tank, many marines and a raven play with banshees (or some thor variant), you will at least see it coming. What you do after seeing it is up to you. You can cancel expo if they push out and you are scared you cant hold it, you will be in the very least on even ground afterwords. You can keep the expansion but stop probe production and come out ahead but it will be harder to hold.
If you poke the ramp and a bunker or two with marauders and slow are there, do NOT stick around like an idiot and let everything die (main prob people have and they go "OMG terran imba" when they lose everything instead of running away). Run home and if they chase, which they usually will as that is a marauder timing attack, FF front, cancel expo, and continue to hold off the attack and you should be quite ahead after the hold. Immortals will shut it down really fast.
The only other wild card is some kind of 1 base no expo ghost rush in case your 3 gate push will not defeat it but should be threatening enough to pull the ghost into the fight. A ghost expo opening dies to 3 gate.
Just dont be silly and rush up the ramp with stalkers in front zealots in back or some other kind of sentry up front silliness. Remember not every attack is meant to kill your opponent.
This build is good at being safe, it will not put you in a great lead in any way as it sacrifices a balanced amount of tech and economy for safety. If opponent makes a risky build, THEN you can come out ahead. If opponent plays standard, you are on balanced footing and skill will matter from there on, which is the way it should be.
Terran has to outplay you to beat this build. No problem in that.
If I had to update this build for the current patch, I would do the following. Cut the first zealot, buy an early gateway, build 1 stalker and then 2 stalkers. After this ascertain what you want to do.
You get a quicker expo with the 2 gate pressure and isn't meant to kill the opponent, just to apply some pressure, it also hits a lot quicker.
Aggressive 3 gate can straight up kill your opponent if he plays to greedy, but you delay your nexus. It can also contain the Terran player quite well since you get a lot of sentries.
Both are good, the 2 gate is really easy to spot for and most Terrans nowdays will know you're doing if they see the second gate that fast, so a lot of Protoss have just been just doing the 2 gate as a defensive build to get the Nexus up.
On June 24 2011 08:22 Singularis wrote: I'm really only having difficulty with this build if the Terran goes fast cloak. If they do this, I'm practically dead =/
Advice?
Gas steal will delay the cloak enough for you to have an observer out before it hits.
Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote: Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
Because you can have a very good idea of wether you need a robo or not by poking with a zealot/stalker?
personally i think fast 3 gate is a counter build to fast banshees because it's so obvious if they're teching and you just trhow down a robo and the obs is out with plenty of time to spare.
srsly, when you scout a terran that has gas and walling off his front. poke in 30 sec later and see if there is a techlap on the front barracks. if not = either tank or banshee so dont go for this build. Only go for this build if you scout techlap barracks or gassless expo (tho this means you have tod o dmg cuz your expo is later then his)
On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote: Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built?
You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there.
On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote: Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built?
You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there.
Do you think that in this case, a forge is a better choice than a robo? If i see lots of marines, no tech lab on the rax etc i will usually throw down a robo, but it's usually before the expansion, and i feel it slows my expo down a good deal...let's face it, 3 gate robo expo kinda sucks. I have never defended banshees with a forge, wouldn't it be easy for the banshees to snipe your outlying buildings, like a couple pylons, and maybe even a gateway?
On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote: Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built?
You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there.
Do you think that in this case, a forge is a better choice than a robo? If i see lots of marines, no tech lab on the rax etc i will usually throw down a robo, but it's usually before the expansion, and i feel it slows my expo down a good deal...let's face it, 3 gate robo expo kinda sucks. I have never defended banshees with a forge, wouldn't it be easy for the banshees to snipe your outlying buildings, like a couple pylons, and maybe even a gateway?
What purpose was the robo going to serve in a situation where you open with a lot of gateway aggression? Immortals are too slow to be aggressive at this point, and Colossus would lead you into a defensive game for a long time (unless close positions or allin). So in this example it would be to get an observer. That's 225/175 to detect a banshee that cost 300/300 (including cloak), and assuming you suffer probe loss you're still left with a useless robo. A forge allows you to save your ever valuable vespene, and perhaps spend that 100 vespene on an upgrade. Basically the forge will more than likely have more utility than a robo at this point in time.
I believe a rough banshee timing would be 7 minutes 30 seconds.
this is all i do in PvT. I make sure i have decent to good map aweness. On maps where you can see the attack path from a tower ill have it, or ill just have a probe outside his base.
Normally, if i dont see any units coming in by the time i get my first warp in (ill have zealot, stalker, senty and then warp in one more of each) i know they're not going for an early push, with a few marauders/marines/SCV. So i would just add on a robo incase of banshee and ill expand.
But i might try applying pressure on him instead. Might have to try this a few times in ladder
On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote: Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built?
You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there.
Do you think that in this case, a forge is a better choice than a robo? If i see lots of marines, no tech lab on the rax etc i will usually throw down a robo, but it's usually before the expansion, and i feel it slows my expo down a good deal...let's face it, 3 gate robo expo kinda sucks. I have never defended banshees with a forge, wouldn't it be easy for the banshees to snipe your outlying buildings, like a couple pylons, and maybe even a gateway?
What purpose was the robo going to serve in a situation where you open with a lot of gateway aggression? Immortals are too slow to be aggressive at this point, and Colossus would lead you into a defensive game for a long time (unless close positions or allin). So in this example it would be to get an observer. That's 225/175 to detect a banshee that cost 300/300 (including cloak), and assuming you suffer probe loss you're still left with a useless robo. A forge allows you to save your ever valuable vespene, and perhaps spend that 100 vespene on an upgrade. Basically the forge will more than likely have more utility than a robo at this point in time.
I believe a rough banshee timing would be 7 minutes 30 seconds.
Nah robo is much more valuable as a response to cloaked banshees then forge. Forge doesn't cover everything, doesn't give you scouting and doesn't really give you map control. Forge + cannon is also hardly faster then robo + obs, as forge + cannon is 85 secs while robo + obs is around 95 secs (assuming 1 chrono on the obs). Also your obs finishing a few seconds after cloak does isn't too bad, you lose a few probes perhaps but often you can kill the banshee in return and be up an expansion. A cannon finishing too late means it might get sniped or the banshee just leaves safely, putting up a cannon at the expansion under cloaked banshee(s) is also quite hard whereas with obs there's no such problem. Banshee play could also be just without cloak as a setup for a tank/banshee/marine push which you don't know before putting the forge/robo down. Robo is immensely useful against this push as it allows you to follow them with obs. Cannons do absolutely nothing against the tank variety of the push. Finally gas is actually a less precious commodity against tech builds then minerals really. Any tech build makes sentries weak (and you have some already anyway) and usually requires mass zealot/stalker to stop. I rather spend 250m 250g for 2 obs then 450 for 2 cannons...
The build overall is still weak against fast banshee play though, if i'm not really sure i vastly prefer a 2 gate variation, it expo's slightly faster and is a bit less awkward against tech builds and the like while having hardly less pressure (because it uses the gateways more efficiently).
On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote: Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe.
You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built?
You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there.
Do you think that in this case, a forge is a better choice than a robo? If i see lots of marines, no tech lab on the rax etc i will usually throw down a robo, but it's usually before the expansion, and i feel it slows my expo down a good deal...let's face it, 3 gate robo expo kinda sucks. I have never defended banshees with a forge, wouldn't it be easy for the banshees to snipe your outlying buildings, like a couple pylons, and maybe even a gateway?
What purpose was the robo going to serve in a situation where you open with a lot of gateway aggression? Immortals are too slow to be aggressive at this point, and Colossus would lead you into a defensive game for a long time (unless close positions or allin). So in this example it would be to get an observer. That's 225/175 to detect a banshee that cost 300/300 (including cloak), and assuming you suffer probe loss you're still left with a useless robo. A forge allows you to save your ever valuable vespene, and perhaps spend that 100 vespene on an upgrade. Basically the forge will more than likely have more utility than a robo at this point in time.
I believe a rough banshee timing would be 7 minutes 30 seconds.
Nah robo is much more valuable as a response to cloaked banshees then forge. Forge doesn't cover everything, doesn't give you scouting and doesn't really give you map control. Forge + cannon is also hardly faster then robo + obs, as forge + cannon is 85 secs while robo + obs is around 95 secs (assuming 1 chrono on the obs). Banshee play could also be just without cloak as a setup for a tank/banshee/marine push which you don't know before putting the forge/robo down. Robo is immensely useful against this push as it allows you to follow them with obs. Cannons do absolutely nothing against the tank variety of the push. Finally gas is actually a less precious commodity against tech builds then minerals really. Any tech build makes sentries weak (and you have some already anyway) and usually requires mass zealot/stalker to stop. I rather spend 250m 250g for 2 obs then 450 for 2 cannons...
The build overall is still weak against fast banshee play though, if i'm not really sure i vastly prefer a 2 gate variation, it expo's slightly faster and is a bit less awkward against tech builds and the like while having hardly less pressure (because it uses the gateways more efficiently).
I don't really disagree with the utility of the robo, I just think that it's more likely a forge will be more useful. Just depends on how you want to play.
On June 25 2011 04:32 CecilSunkure wrote: Just depends on how you want to play.
I agree, it definitely comes down to preference. Adel and - sometimes - TT1 play it with forge and fast thirds (what is one base terran gonna do about it?). Personally, I don't like 3 gate openings when I suspect one base tech play. But then again it is also very map-dependent...
Thank you for the responses . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did?
On June 25 2011 04:32 CecilSunkure wrote: Just depends on how you want to play.
I agree, it definitely comes down to preference. Adel and - sometimes - TT1 play it with forge and fast thirds (what is one base terran gonna do about it?). Personally, I don't like 3 gate openings when I suspect one base tech play. But then again it is also very map-dependent...
Yeah I generally use aggressive 3 gate openings on maps without a choky natural, and when I'm fairly sure a command center had gone down. It just takes familiarizing yourself with the different signs of different openings to be able to choose your own appropriate opening.
On June 25 2011 04:41 Teoita wrote: Thank you for the responses . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did?
That makes no sense to me if you're going to be aggressive. The point is to delay the Terran expo and force the pace of the game. How is sinking 200/100 going to help you do this? Watch my replay in the OP against SiN for an idea of how to use a forge in the face of banshees (you could have gotten a robo instead).
On June 25 2011 04:46 tuestresfat wrote: Thanks so much for making this thread.
Just out of completely curiosity, what level are the replays you uploaded?
What level..? Uhh I can't remember where I was ranked back then. Top thousand of Master league? I think I uploaded one with SiN who's a pretty good teammate of mine.
The three gate pressure expand is, in my opinion, one of the most strongest Protoss vs Terran openings and, with a small edit or two, allows you to make space and get an observer in time to counter any Banshee-based counter attacks, furthering my liking of this build.
In short, I like to orientate between the standard 1 gate fast expand, two gate expand pressure Naniwa style, and 3 gate pressure expand pressure-based. However, like the others before me requested, can you upload some new replays of you performing this build CecilSunkure? I tried to use this build a few times and, since the new patch and the few changes, it hasn't been so succesful as before, and I have been forced to use 1 gate fast expand as my new main build.
But overall, I like it as a good build to use as a variety when in other best of games against Terran players, but I would like to see an "updated" version with updated replays so we can see if any adjustments are to be made.
Overall, thanks for sharing this with us CecilSunkure! :D
On June 25 2011 04:47 Saber96 wrote: The three gate pressure expand is, in my opinion, one of the most strongest Protoss vs Terran openings and, with a small edit or two, allows you to make space and get an observer in time to counter any Banshee-based counter attacks, furthering my liking of this build.
In short, I like to orientate between the standard 1 gate fast expand, two gate expand pressure Naniwa style, and 3 gate pressure expand pressure-based. However, like the others before me requested, can you upload some new replays of you performing this build CecilSunkure? I tried to use this build a few times and, since the new patch and the few changes, it hasn't been so succesful as before, and I have been forced to use 1 gate fast expand as my new main build.
But overall, I like it as a good build to use as a variety when in other best of games against Terran players, but I would like to see an "updated" version with updated replays so we can see if any adjustments are to be made.
Overall, thanks for sharing this with us CecilSunkure! :D
if cecil can't upload any replays, can someone else upload a recent replay as well? thanks :D
Really it's all the same except a slight chronoboost difference. So, just spend an extra chrono on for example, warpgate tech. Just make sure you get your gateways to finish when warpgate finished, and be sure to spend chrono on warpgate (iirc I do 3 chronos). There's hardly a difference at all.
On June 25 2011 04:41 Teoita wrote: Thank you for the responses . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did?
edit: thanks cecil, will do.
going robo too early drops the potential for pressure completely, if you really insist on going robo just go 1 gate expo or gate-robo-gate expo (with 2 gas) then. Those builds have a robo fairly quick and an expansion, you can't expand, get robo and pressure all at the same time though.
On June 25 2011 04:41 Teoita wrote: Thank you for the responses . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did?
edit: thanks cecil, will do.
going robo too early drops the potential for pressure completely, if you really insist on going robo just go 1 gate expo or gate-robo-gate expo (with 2 gas) then. Those builds have a robo fairly quick and an expansion, you can't expand, get robo and pressure all at the same time though.
I guess the core of my question before was if it's possible to get a robo in time to be 100% safe from cloak, while at the same time putting on some pressure, and the answer appearently is no. Maybe people with better mechanics than me can, but when i play it feels like at 6 minutes i have to 1) expand 2) warp in a round of units to start pressure and 3) start working towards detection, and the resources just aren't enough. Thanks for the help though ^^
edit: sorry to sound annoying, i didn't mean to. In the replay you busted the ramp and cancelled cloak however. Should i expect to do that 100% of the time, or at the very least delay him, given correct execution of the initial push?
On June 25 2011 04:41 Teoita wrote: Thank you for the responses . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did?
edit: thanks cecil, will do.
going robo too early drops the potential for pressure completely, if you really insist on going robo just go 1 gate expo or gate-robo-gate expo (with 2 gas) then. Those builds have a robo fairly quick and an expansion, you can't expand, get robo and pressure all at the same time though.
I guess the core of my question before was if it's possible to get a robo in time to be 100% safe from cloak, while at the same time putting on some pressure, and the answer appearently is no. Maybe people with better mechanics than me can, but when i play it feels like at 6 minutes i have to 1) expand 2) warp in a round of units to start pressure and 3) start working towards detection, and the resources just aren't enough. Thanks for the help though ^^
I don't know how many times I have to say it, but seriously go watch the replays. I vsed banshee. I want you to realize you can bust up the ramp against fast banshee and probably just kill them unless they keep their banshees back to defend, thus giving you time to get cannons or robo.
i've been trying this against terran(im only silver league) and has been working successfully most of the time but i think 3 occasions i've lost to what seems liek a 5racks all in with scvs and marines and it usually hits just as my expo has gone up but not in time for my robo to get laid down. any advice?
On June 25 2011 05:57 proerthantoss wrote: i've been trying this against terran(im only silver league) and has been working successfully most of the time but i think 3 occasions i've lost to what seems liek a 5racks all in with scvs and marines and it usually hits just as my expo has gone up but not in time for my robo to get laid down. any advice?
So they allin you off of 5 barracks? Constantly warp in units from the gateways, and then pull all your probes if they have all their scvs. Sentry guardian shield and FF to prevent kiting.
Its not great, im only platinum and ive had alot of trouble in PvT recently: Getting caught out cos i expand and he all ins me. I 3 gate expand and cloak banshee kills me He expands inside his base and i dont scout it. I just continue building units and so my expansion comes late when i finally see his
This game wasnt great. My timings were wrong, i dunno why i went 2nd gas before zealot, but because of that mistake i had to chrono the zealot. As you can see it left me with too much gas left over (think i hit 500 a few times -_-) The gas steal is good vs terran anyway, but close air positions even better to slow down drops + banshee. Keeping vision is so important - hence the FF on the ramp to the tower. It allows you to see if more pressure is coming and thats probably the reason i won. Using the warp in to stop more reinforcements. If he got all 3 tanks siege outside my base im dead, thats when you revert to dropping his base. But just 3 zealots were enough to stop trickling marines and siege tanks coming. My robo/expo came late. because i came out of the engagement so far ahead (besides the poor micro on my first immortal) i thought i'd kill him right there so didnt wanna expand.
Overall it was a bit sloppy but i still held it with so much ease
droping a robo immediately after nexus makes this build a lot more versatile. you can still pressure and constant production out of three gates if you cut probes. but the robo makes you deal with 1-1-1 openings much better. if you suspect banshee rather than risking going up the ramp you can just be defensive with ur first ob and get ahead by letting his banshee do no damage.
Siege Expand, 2 Factory/ 1/1/1 push = Protoss's first pressure push owned Cant see how this works if the opponent has at least 2 or more siege tanks and a bunker wall off. Which any non-bioing terran probably will. 2Rax pressure quicker and probably be okay with fast Stimpack.
Only bad scenerios for this build I can think of. Gonna be semi-useful against any harassment builds except for Cloaked Banshees (I think that might be an auto-win)
On June 26 2011 01:23 aaycumi wrote: Siege Expand, 2 Factory/ 1/1/1 push = Protoss's first pressure push owned Cant see how this works if the opponent has at least 2 or more siege tanks and a bunker wall off. Which any non-bioing terran probably will. 2Rax pressure quicker and probably be okay with fast Stimpack.
Only bad scenerios for this build I can think of. Gonna be semi-useful against any harassment builds except for Cloaked Banshees (I think that might be an auto-win)
I've played this against a siege expand, and what you do is just set up a contain at the bottom of the ramp. Once he starts inching siege tanks down the ramp you can back away and let him take his natural. Basically I just tried to delay the expo enough so I wouldn't be behind from a 3 Gate Expand.
Against cloak banshee, you can be prepared if you see signs (early gas, lots of marines) and get a preemptive robo, or just get an earlier forge. Either will be fine. I also included a replay in the OP of me busting the ramp of my friend who was going for cloak banshee.
On July 12 2011 16:45 whereismymind wrote: CecilSunkure what do you think about playing this defensively with researching hallucination for scouting?
I agree with that, but I just never feel comfortable when I play agressive, because he can drop blue flame hellions, and I never manage to kill his hellions fast enough(with all my army in front). Their damage is ridicilous(aoe), and I lose at least 10 probes if I have my army on his doors(while he is camping with 2 bunkers).
hey cecil, how do you deal with a thor rush with this build? i find that im unable to get anything out that is able to hit the thor hard enough to beat the repair as well as to deal with the marines with it
On July 12 2011 21:04 unit wrote: hey cecil, how do you deal with a thor rush with this build? i find that im unable to get anything out that is able to hit the thor hard enough to beat the repair as well as to deal with the marines with it
If you did this build and managed to do some damage, you essentially delayed his thor all-in. You want to throw down a robo and throw down 2 more gates whilst cutting probes to ONLY produce units. Target fire the thors with immortals appropriately and you'll do fine.
On July 12 2011 21:04 unit wrote: hey cecil, how do you deal with a thor rush with this build? i find that im unable to get anything out that is able to hit the thor hard enough to beat the repair as well as to deal with the marines with it
If you did this build and managed to do some damage, you essentially delayed his thor all-in. You want to throw down a robo and throw down 2 more gates whilst cutting probes to ONLY produce units. Target fire the thors with immortals appropriately and you'll do fine.
thank you, i tried a few things in practice with a friend, and couldnt figure out anything that worked other than dt (sniping the scvs) when i thought that ht wouldve worked (didnt go quite as planned)
one question was that robo then g4+5 or g4+5 then robo?
Something to point out here that I didn't see mentioned in the thread (hopefully I didn't just miss it) is a discussion of how it fits in with standard Terran stim timings. I believe the earliest Terran can get stim out is something like 7:00, and once stim is out you are basically unable to run up the ramp without an overwhelming advantage. This is important because a 2-rax can have both stim and concussive out by 7 minutes, and if you even try to run up the ramp when they're both finished (just to poke) you're going to lose a lot of stuff.
However, in standard terran openings (concussive first, 1 tech lab) I believe stim tends to finish around 9:00, which gives you a bit more leeway. Since this build seems to hit AROUND the 7:00 mark (slightly earlier, in the Alicia game I think it was 6:30 or so) it's important to keep in mind when stim is going to finish so you can get out without losing too much. (No early concussive shell + tech lab on barracks = probably fast stim.)
This build does basically hard-counter tech builds, even cloakshee. Although a cloaked banshee in your base basically puts you all-in, you're unlikely to lose in a base race.
In Day9 Daily #314 HwangSin PvT, HwangSin opts for 6 sentries and a more Stalker heavy followup and manages to still throw down his Nexus relatively fast. In addition, He skips the first zealot and does no poke, seeing a tech lab with his probe and sniping a reaper. What are your thoughts on this versus the traditional 5 Sentry 1 Stalker 4 Zealot Push?
Might I suggest that you get the 3 sentries warped in before the 3 zealots? It would not only allow you to get a quicker nexus and more probes but additional energy. + You could warp in those zealots at a proxy pylon.
On July 29 2011 08:57 kineSiS- wrote: Might I suggest that you get the 3 sentries warped in before the 3 zealots? It would not only allow you to get a quicker nexus and more probes but additional energy. + You could warp in those zealots at a proxy pylon.
Zealots have quicker cooldown timer, so warping them in first gives you a quicker attack!
On July 29 2011 08:57 kineSiS- wrote: Might I suggest that you get the 3 sentries warped in before the 3 zealots? It would not only allow you to get a quicker nexus and more probes but additional energy. + You could warp in those zealots at a proxy pylon.
Zealots have quicker cooldown timer, so warping them in first gives you a quicker attack!
Actually the attack is the same time no matter the order. If you want the Sentries first, go for it. I just prefer to have the zealots first because I feel more safe warping the sentries in, rather than having them around the map in a pretty vulnerable state. More a matter of style/preference imo, but a faster nexus + a little more sentry energy could be really good.
This build is 100% worse against 1-1-1 in all considerable aspects. Unless the T is so bad that you are somehow able to break the ramp with a 3 gate push.
Early on you are in no danger anyways, and later on the expansion will not have payed off.
3 gate expo was supposed to punish 1 rax expands where terran floats the CC down too greedily early.
I'd like to note that this build was only ever done once or twice ever in the pro scene. It is not the standard 3 gate very commonly done in PvT. I think you should make a note of this in the beginning of your guide. Many people search for a 3 gate PvT build on teamliquid and since there is no guide for the standard 3 gate, they refer to this and think it's the standard.
On August 12 2011 05:40 4kmonk wrote: I'd like to note that this build was only ever done once or twice ever in the pro scene. It is not the standard 3 gate very commonly done in PvT. I think you should make a note of this in the beginning of your guide. Many people search for a 3 gate PvT build on teamliquid and since there is no guide for the standard 3 gate, they refer to this and think it's the standard.
On August 11 2011 18:07 sleepingdog wrote: This build is 100% worse against 1-1-1 in all considerable aspects. Unless the T is so bad that you are somehow able to break the ramp with a 3 gate push.
Early on you are in no danger anyways, and later on the expansion will not have payed off.
3 gate expo was supposed to punish 1 rax expands where terran floats the CC down too greedily early.
Yeah both of you are right, I'll include something in the intro.
This is a very good build. I have starte dusing it in PvT as of late (after coming back form an extended break). My preference is stalker/sentry, especially if the Terran does an FE. This allows the stlakers to kill off marines (effective early game) while the sentries hold off reinforcments/scv surorunds/repairs and limit the number of fighting Terrans. The zealots are good for a ramp bust but I find counterintuitive if used other than that.
I've noticed that this is somewhat effective v a 1/1/1 build in that it's easy to scout the 1/1/1 build and potentially delays it by scaring them. But thats the only good part about it.
edit: SCaring them doesn't turn out for the best ometimes as i just learned. The guy pulled out all his scvs when making his delayed push.
I was going to ask what I could do against 2 bunkers on top of the ramp, but now I'm thinking that I should probably FF contain right? Btw, does the FF go on the bottom or the middle of the ramp?
when doing the sentry contain, what is the balance of macroing probes/tech/units? In a lot of cases you hold the terran so long he has no other option but to make a army with medivac's and bust out. knowing when i need to leave and return home is not the problem, but getting all-in'd/attacked directly after is.
are you guys, adding 2 more gates? (if not, are you hitting every production cycle off 3 and sneaking in probes?) chronoing probes? getting forge upgrades? getting a robo for obs?
On August 23 2011 02:30 DeanMalinco wrote: when doing the sentry contain, what is the balance of macroing probes/tech/units? In a lot of cases you hold the terran so long he has no other option but to make a army with medivac's and bust out. knowing when i need to leave and return home is not the problem, but getting all-in'd/attacked directly after is.
are you guys, adding 2 more gates? (if not, are you hitting every production cycle off 3 and sneaking in probes?) chronoing probes? getting forge upgrades? getting a robo for obs?
Just play standard like you normally would as if you never contained the terran in the first place. I keep making probes while teching to colossus. My robo goes up pretty much as soon as I warp in my first sentry to set up the contain.
Yes an all-in could be difficult to hold, but it's no different from an all-in if you never contained him in the first place.
While the contain is great, keep in mind that it doesn't actually give you a huge advantage. 2 orbital terran on 1 base will still have a similar econ to you on 2 bases (at least until you manage to saturate both bases, which takes awhile).
Thank you so much for this build Cecil. Gets the Terrans so angry on ladder!
As for safety of this build, I have found after around 100 PvTs with it (it is my standard opening) that it is safe if you are sure they are using barracks-based armies. If you see double gas, a quick bunker w/o a command center, or a factory, you either need to scrap it entirely or play more defensively and get a quick robo.
On the plus side, I have found you can break pretty much any 1 rax expand with a good attack, and you can play even with or break a 2 rax expand with good micro. Practicing your early game scouting is crucial with this build, because you will have more trouble with siege tank or banshee openings from the Terran.
Is this build a good standard build to do every PvT in plat? Is there a safer build that I should be doing instead?
3 gate robo is the most safe. 3 gate expo is less so because you have to read the terran because you straight up lose against banshee's.
Not true. I can usually get sn observer at 745 or so while cloak finishes at 730. If you dont see any marauders you kind of need to cut some units or delay expo to get one out.
Glad you guys are still taking easy games off of opponents doing stupid things early game. It would be cool to see some replays of people using it though. Post em up if you got em!
I love this build. I wonder if this build can transition into an all-in version. I remember seeing MVPGenius do a 3 --> 5 Gate all-in on Taldarim a couple of times.
I've tried doing this build quite a few times and have had no success. My build order is spot on too, like in the SlayerS_Alicia VOD. When I show up to his ramp he's always got a handful of marines and marauders behind his wall that just demolishes my little army if I choose to stay and break down his wall. Am I doing something wrong? I'm in Gold btw
On September 04 2011 15:20 1ll0gic wrote: I've tried doing this build quite a few times and have had no success. My build order is spot on too, like in the SlayerS_Alicia VOD. When I show up to his ramp he's always got a handful of marines and marauders behind his wall that just demolishes my little army if I choose to stay and break down his wall. Am I doing something wrong? I'm in Gold btw
If he is up his ramp then that is already a win for you. You do not have to go up and try to end the game. Just take your expo and tech up/get uprades. The terran will fall behind on base. Oh, and don't contain for too long, or else he can bust down the ramp with stim. Its just a pressure move designed to put you ahead.
On September 04 2011 15:20 1ll0gic wrote: I've tried doing this build quite a few times and have had no success. My build order is spot on too, like in the SlayerS_Alicia VOD. When I show up to his ramp he's always got a handful of marines and marauders behind his wall that just demolishes my little army if I choose to stay and break down his wall. Am I doing something wrong? I'm in Gold btw
If he is up his ramp then that is already a win for you. You do not have to go up and try to end the game. Just take your expo and tech up/get uprades. The terran will fall behind on base. Oh, and don't contain for too long, or else he can bust down the ramp with stim. Its just a pressure move designed to put you ahead.
There have been a few times where I just contained him for awhile and then went back after my natural was up and running, but then since I invested the money in an expo and probes, I don't have as large of an army as he does, and he just 1base all-ins me with stim and/or concussive and destroys me
On September 04 2011 15:20 1ll0gic wrote: I've tried doing this build quite a few times and have had no success. My build order is spot on too, like in the SlayerS_Alicia VOD. When I show up to his ramp he's always got a handful of marines and marauders behind his wall that just demolishes my little army if I choose to stay and break down his wall. Am I doing something wrong? I'm in Gold btw
If he is up his ramp then that is already a win for you. You do not have to go up and try to end the game. Just take your expo and tech up/get uprades. The terran will fall behind on base. Oh, and don't contain for too long, or else he can bust down the ramp with stim. Its just a pressure move designed to put you ahead.
There have been a few times where I just contained him for awhile and then went back after my natural was up and running, but then since I invested the money in an expo and probes, I don't have as large of an army as he does, and he just 1base all-ins me with stim and/or concussive and destroys me
with good forcefield, you should be able to hold off any aggression until your new gateways kick in. In a situation like that, i wouldnt tech up too hard. But either way good FF should keep you alive. Especially with immortal support. You can even see it coming with your obs from a mile away and prepare.
There have been a few times where I just contained him for awhile and then went back after my natural was up and running, but then since I invested the money in an expo and probes, I don't have as large of an army as he does, and he just 1base all-ins me with stim and/or concussive and destroys me
If you get the sentry contain going, I recommend moving as quickly as possible towards 5-6 warpgates and a robo (robo support bay optional, and only if you got the robo quickly). You should feel free to cut warpgate units a bit to get these up and operational. Remember: if you have him contained, he can't attack you. What you want is to have 5-6 warpgates cranking out zealots if you see him go for the quick counter. You then hold the push with sentry-zealot, maybe one warp round of stalkers, and one colossus if you went for it. If you went robo you can see what units he has with the obs, so feel free to adjust your units to match. Good forcefields and guardian shield will help immensely, but focus on getting just a ton of stuff. The reason it is crucial to get the infrastructure up first is that your minerals will start to jump dramatically once you saturate your second base, but it will seem to happen all at once, and you don't want to die with minerals in the bank/gateways building. You may lose a bit more from the attack than he will, but you have so much more money it shouldn't make a difference. If you defeat the counter without pulling probes, you have likely just won the game.
Willll, I disagree with your statement saying that "if you have him contained, he can't attack you". In fact, it is completely possible and actually very, very common that a contained terran will look at himself being contained and say "okay, fine i'll just get some medivac's and drop your base."
Which can be extremely detrimental when most (if not all) of your army is still chilling at his natural expansion and you are under the impression that he hasn't attempted to leave his base yet.
The reason I bring this up is because it is statements like that which are read and understood by lower-level players who are looking for help with a matchup. They find a post like this, see the good responses and try it thinking that if they're containing them, they are ahead (which they will be) and in control (possible, but not always). Then when they get doom-dropped cause the terran decided to just 1base and the protoss wasn't ready, he loses and then thinks "well that build was stupid, they lied to me".
Containing someone, especially a terran, should not be looked at as holding them in one spot indefinitely. It should be looked at as preventing an expansion. Unless you've gotten other means of knowing what he's doing (observers, poking up the ramp, sacrificing probes in his base, hallucination scouts), you do not have much control over the player at all.
Willll, I disagree with your statement saying that "if you have him contained, he can't attack you". In fact, it is completely possible and actually very, very common that a contained terran will look at himself being contained and say "okay, fine i'll just get some medivac's and drop your base."
Which can be extremely detrimental when most (if not all) of your army is still chilling at his natural expansion and you are under the impression that he hasn't attempted to leave his base yet.
The reason I bring this up is because it is statements like that which are read and understood by lower-level players who are looking for help with a matchup. They find a post like this, see the good responses and try it thinking that if they're containing them, they are ahead (which they will be) and in control (possible, but not always). Then when they get doom-dropped cause the terran decided to just 1base and the protoss wasn't ready, he loses and then thinks "well that build was stupid, they lied to me".
Containing someone, especially a terran, should not be looked at as holding them in one spot indefinitely. It should be looked at as preventing an expansion. Unless you've gotten other means of knowing what he's doing (observers, poking up the ramp, sacrificing probes in his base, hallucination scouts), you do not have much control over the player at all.
You need to get to know the timing of the medivacs (or use an obs to see them!). You can't hang out in front forever. I prefer robo follow up for exactly this reason, as you should get some insight into their medivac timing with an observer. Also, while they are contained, you can build your pylons around the map (since you have map control before their medivacs).
Your goal is to build your infrastructure while they are teching to medivacs, with the understanding that the Terran will attack with the first two-four (this is one of the most common timings in PvT). You are trying to force them to have a little less than they would otherwise, crush the attack (or force them not to attack), and roll to victory. If you suspect medivacs are coming soon, get some scouting on the map, go home, get ready to crush this attack. If they are going to pull scvs and go Rain style, they will likely use 2-4 medivacs with that attack as well.
On December 23 2011 22:28 MoreSore wrote: Good build for sure but 2 of your replays completely disregard the build order so why did you post em ?
Yea, this is something that really annoys me too. I don't know about this replays, but for example one time on liquipedia i was looking for some dt build, and i found it and in the reference there was like original vod of the game that the build was taken - the build has absolutely nothing with the numbers posted but at the end there are DTs. In the VOD MC mistakenly builds forge for 30 s and then cancels it and then puts his gateway LOL...
My question about this build is - is it viable on master level or do i have to switch to something else? I exclusively use this build because i am aggressive player and i enjoy my attack at 7 min and expo behind.
It is viable, but it is probably the worst against 1/1/1, which the trends were moving towards. You cannot contain 1/1/1 easily due to the siege tanks, and if they are going to 1-base you then delaying their expand is less effective. Against bio-expand builds it can still be quite effective. Against 1/1/1 or other 1-base tech, pros have been having more success with 1-gate expands. Generally you can start on this build order, and then use your scouting to decide whether to 1-gate expand or 3-gate expand.
EPT
been winning a shit load of PvT's at 3600 masters with this.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KsdNA.jpg)
