EPTI've always liked your wc3 commentaries, seems like you can deliver for sc2 as well!
[G] PvT 3 Gate Aggressive Expo - Page 6
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Swap
Sweden144 Posts
I've always liked your wc3 commentaries, seems like you can deliver for sc2 as well! | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On March 19 2011 05:30 panzzzzz wrote: Hi Cecil, what is your response to a player that went 1 base thor? Its impossible to scout the armory with a bunker up, and the sentry heavy mix will get annihilated. 1 thor will be out in time to hold off that bust up the ramp. Ive beaten thors with this build at THEIR ramp. Coming down a ramp into a wall of protoss units isn't really too desirably, he even tried to bring scv's but it didn't matter. Also, you can still forcefield them since they cant walk over the other units. I was able to cut off units because the thor was blocked behind some other units. I've also yet to use to cloaked banshees. I don't foresee myself losing to a cloak build unless they tricked me by getting marauders early on then went straight for cloaked banshees, delaying them for quite some time. I think if you guys are losing by being surprised by things you need to be more aggressive as attacking is your scouting. I research hallucinate fairly early if im containing their ramp and just pop a phoenix in every once in a while to decide when i should head home. Honestly though, I think alot of people are missing a key point in the build and a point that isn't really mentioned in the original post. The real strength of this build is that you are actually able to safely engage bio early in the game and very frequently if you're doing it right. As such, their bio count doesn't hit a critical mass until much later when your economic advantage has already kicked in. One base all-ins as a response is not what terran need to be digging for. They need to at least work in a CC in the main for when they push out. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On March 19 2011 05:51 Karmoon wrote: Couldn't the terran player just sit in his base and drop the crap out of the protoss player? I play random, but tend to be better with toss. If i was camping outside a terran's base, I'd be petrified of getting my back stabbed with a dual medivac stimpack drop which can take out the majority of your base if you're not ready for it. With mules you can pump out a ridiculous amount from one base with terran - but the toss player has 3 locations to worry about - his main, his natural and his force/your base. Just some thoughts.  Drops are a threat if you hold your contain too long. Super fast drops aren't really great against this because you can often just kill the player straight up with your initial army or break down the front. If they do like 2 rax into a drop ship its not much safer than 2 rax FE into a reasonably early drop. To combat this, I tend to start warping in units at home after a warp in or two at my containment spot. Since you can choose how many units to cut off with forcefield you don't need a massive army. Just cut off a small chunk, kill them and run home. As I said in my previous posts on this thread, I personally work hallucinate into this build under most circumstances. thought process regarding when to get hallucinate... pressure is defined as poking up their ramp: 1.) Send first push as normal, see if you can do damage, but don't commit unless you can 2.) Reinforce with ~2 warp ins regardless of your first poke. 3a.) If more pressure wouldn't be beneficial and they aren't getting marauders, Spend 100 gas on robo, build zealots/stalkers at home with your warpgates. 3b.) If more pressure wouldn't be beneficial and they are getting marauders or you've noticed stim or combat shield or any other tech that signifies a delay in them possibly getting cloak, spend 100 gas on hallucinate and check on them every 45 seconds or so. 4.) Once your expansion economy kicks in, if not a little earlier, you should just head home. The time where you head home will be based on scouting and whether or not they have a seige tank ultimately. I finally lost with this build last night though. What the guy did was held his ramp really well, got 2 medivacs, then dropped his army off the side of his base and came around from the side to take out my army. It was before my economy had kicked in and though my macro slipped a little I dont think I would have had the units at home because he won the fight so one sidedly. It could have just been due to my variation on the build though as I tend to hold weaker contains and just assume because I have sentry I'll be able to escape as I please. Regardless of how you use the build you should remember that you dont want a crapton of zealots unless you think you'll be needing to defend. Zealots are terrible at seiging, you need a couple, but you dont want a ton of them on the offensive end as even with forcefields on their ramp, the units sealed off up at the top of their ramp will be able to hit the zeals, which kind of nullifies your forcefield. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
Many Protoss players are realizing they can do a super powerful warpgate rush play and get an expo up behind it. The 3 warpgate attack is in many ways just as difficult to hold than the 4gate. Terran brethren - you HAVE to expand with mass units versus Protoss right now. Anything else is certain death. If you tech behind bunkers you are going to lose. If you get FF contained, you are going to lose. Expand with mass units, and have bunkers, but take the fight to the middle of the map. Only fight with your bunkers if you absolutely have to. Even with mass units, and bunkers, the 3gate -> 6gate is outrageously strong. You will probably pull SCVs and be licking your wounds while Protoss is comfortably warping in Nexus #3. Two base tech to Ghost helps also. | ||
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OverZero
United States271 Posts
As for PvT, I don't know how effective this build would be if the terran walls off. Though, if you could manage to force marines/marauders away from the wall-in with forcefields it would be very strong. I'll definitely have to try this out! Thanks! What do you think is the best response if after you pressure they go into a 2-base ghost/marine/marauder force? I've been having an insane amount of trouble vs. ghost play past couple weeks... | ||
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AbeToss
United States60 Posts
. I love that more Protoss players are taking the initiative and dictating the flow of the game early on, rather than just react to what they see with their initial observer.As an aside, I'd love to see a write up of a PvZ build from you. Perhaps one of MC's two base timing pushes that are all the rage (hint hint)? | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 22 2011 05:54 AbeToss wrote: Thanks for this Cecil! I was planning on looking over Alicia's PvT builds since they seemed mighty solid, but once again you've done all the work for me . I love that more Protoss players are taking the initiative and dictating the flow of the game early on, rather than just react to what they see with their initial observer.As an aside, I'd love to see a write up of a PvZ build from you. Perhaps one of MC's two base timing pushes that are all the rage (hint hint)? Haha, I think Plexa's guide is still vastly superior to anything I could write at this time Also, I didn't copy Alicia's build; this is something I've come up with on my own, as I like sentries. Alicia, iirc, got Stalkers and Sentries, and perhaps a slightly later Nexus(?). It's just that Alicia did a very aggressive 3 Gate Expand, like I did, but went for some different units and therefor did something different than me (since the units have different costs). On March 22 2011 00:33 Swap wrote: Thank you Cecil! I've always liked your wc3 commentaries, seems like you can deliver for sc2 as well! I have never played WC3 competitively in my life; you must be referring to someone else. | ||
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sc0rp10n
United States28 Posts
Plan on practicing this build in customs for a bit for comfort's sake, but maybe you can help me out by sharing other noteworthy observations that you've come across in the time you've had to tinker with this. From the more passive 3 gate expand I've done, I can say that doing a gas steal has restricted banshee builds, at least one's that have cloak, almost entirely. I find it difficult hold off pushes early on, most commonly including 1 marine and 2 marauders with conc shell. Would you advise to steer away from the gas steal so they feel free to tech, or is there something else that I should watch out for? Thanks again for your hard work. Deducing the builds from VOD's get tricky real quick. P.S.: Hoping you upload a rep of you crushing a good 3 rax stim timing push. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13406 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13406 Posts
On March 22 2011 08:24 ZeromuS wrote: Be careful with this build on metal if they do an early bio push on the lane you dont move down and you miss their timing it becomes a pain to try and hold. Just an fyi for doing this build on metal Sry for dbl post android app won't let me edit. In response to the gas steal question thee build is timed out such that it is not a good idea to get the gas steal. Even I have issues affording the nexus right after the 3 zealots and then low on minerals when getting the sentries and high on gas for a bit with combatant probe production and pylons. Unless I'm supposed to cut probes at one point for a bit | ||
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Hacktus
United States25 Posts
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Gradius
United States112 Posts
Game 1 Game 2 Might also just be my macro and the fact that I can't take advantage of a faster expo. | ||
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TechN9ne
United States24 Posts
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
http://www.users.on.net/~rice69/PVT3gate.SC2Replay | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 22 2011 15:08 Jumbled wrote: My biggest concern with this type of build is that T has access to much better anti-light units early on than Z does. Is that a potential problem when using a heavy zealot/sentry mix this way? I'm not sure what you are saying o_o | ||
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HavoK.
United States172 Posts
On March 18 2011 11:34 Snaphoo wrote: For Terrans wondering how to punish this build, in Game 2 in the set against SlayerSAlicia IMMvp went for a fast expo into siege tank and then cloakshees. The instant siege tanks pop the build is severely slowed, and the instant siege mode finishes, the rush is over. Cloakshees are an excellent follow-up because in order for Toss to apply pressure with only 3 gates, there's really not much spare income for infrastructure like robo/cannons. You want to expand with a bunker, and be willing to pull SCVs when the Tos attacks; in this way it's somewhat similar to a Protoss 1 Gate Expo. On a map without an easily securable natural (e.g. Shakuras, Tal'Darim) this strategy is viable. On others like Xel'Naga, I think a 1-base response would probably be optimal. Given that 3-gate relies on the entire Toss army chilling at your ramp, a blue flame drop would seem to be devastating, but I guess more experimentation is needed. In any case, this build is VERY late getting detection, as it goes 3 gates => massive unit production => Nexus. Cloakshees punish it brutally, as IMMvp did to Alicia in Game 2. @CecilSunkure: First the 3 Stalker Rush, now this: Thanks so much for your awesome work in dissecting top-level GSL Toss builds and putting them up for the community to review! You're a hero in my book. This does seem like the best probable answer, thanks for the info i'll have to give it a try next time i scout 3 gate aggression. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
Against a FE, you can only contain at the ramp away from the natural, not the ramp between the main and the natural since the expo (with bunkers) is taken so quickly. Your expo will be behind the T's and the contain outside the natural will only be effective until medivacs come out - for elevatoring or for drops. Overall, I think this build is more aggressive than 1 gate FE or 2 gate robo, but less aggressive (and more economic) than 4 gate, 3 rax void or 3 rax robo busts. Seems like a good balance for players who like to do contain to take map control and be the aggressor. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 22 2011 16:48 Daniel C wrote: If you're busting a FE with 3 gate expo then the terran must really suck, considering that the 1 rax FE (with or without gas) "should" be able to (i.e. not a BO loss) hold a 4 gate, 3 rax void or 3 rax robo. 1 rax FE afaik will die to early aggression. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
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