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On March 19 2011 05:44 panzzzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 05:40 CecilSunkure wrote:
I've held it pretty easily. One time on the Korean server I did this opening and saw thors. I immediately got two robotics facilities out and double chrono'd out immortals. It worked extremely well as I was able to one shot the thors despite losing two immortals to strike cannons. Hmm, I will practice this with my buddy some more then, do you cut probes during your poke up the ramp in order to get 2 robos (or some other deviation) out?
Yeah if someone is allining you you don't need to make a ton of probes. I probably stopped with 18 probes on my natural mineral line, and 18 in my main.
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Couldn't the terran player just sit in his base and drop the crap out of the protoss player?
I play random, but tend to be better with toss. If i was camping outside a terran's base, I'd be petrified of getting my back stabbed with a dual medivac stimpack drop which can take out the majority of your base if you're not ready for it.
With mules you can pump out a ridiculous amount from one base with terran - but the toss player has 3 locations to worry about - his main, his natural and his force/your base.
Just some thoughts. 
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On March 19 2011 05:24 CecilSunkure wrote:
I'd like to see that move micro done when there are forcefields behind your army. And, to all of you dieing to three rax builds when you try to 3 Gate Expand, you must have absolutely terrible sentry usage. There is no way you should be losing to anything bio oriented (even if they have ghosts, as you can simply spread your units out) if you have sentries early game. I made a replay for students mine of me going 3 Gate Expand against a 3 rax stim attack, and I ended up winning with losing only a single sentry.
Mind if I get a copy of that replay? I know I have terrible sentry usage, so any examples of good FFs against 3 rax would be very helpful.
edit: just watched the tank/rine 1-base. The guy you played was hilarious. I wish all my opponents were like him.
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It's really a very strong build. It wouldn't be a miracle to me if this build is going to be one of the absolut standartbuilds in the future.
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Argh, I was on the verge of committing to learning 2gate robo for my PvT standard build, and now I see this. Can anyone tell me which is easier to learn? I want a robust build that's safe against anything with proper scouting. I'm currently Plat (got demoted out of Diamond a few months ago), but I feel like I'm getting worse over time and might get demoted further soon.
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On March 19 2011 06:26 Bonham wrote:
Argh, I was on the verge of committing to learning 2gate robo for my PvT standard build, and now I see this. Can anyone tell me which is easier to learn? I want a robust build that's safe against anything with proper scouting. I'm currently Plat (got demoted out of Diamond a few months ago), but I feel like I'm getting worse over time and might get demoted further soon.
I'd say go for the 2 gate robo (1 gate robo 2 gate that is) as I've found 3 gate to not be that good on larger maps. For once, the push itself is harder to do due to the bigger rush distance. But also a one rax FE can be quite hard to break when they get a ridiculous amount of bunkers.
You need to either counter-expo and go straight for colossi or break it with an immortal-push.
But the 3 gate definitely comes 2nd, I find it to be much more solid than the stargate opening or the warpprism opening (at least on smaller maps).
For a general state of mind I think every protoss player should be able to execute a 1 gate robo 2/3 gate as their number one overall "safe" build. On big maps you can vary it with stargate opening, warpprism opening or 1 gate FE, on smaller maps you can vary it with the 3 gate aggressive play.
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In korea, this is being used a lot lately, usually followed up by a 6gate.
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Personally, I've always preferred strict food numbers for a build order, as long as they're carefully refined so you're not doing stupid shit. In addition, the build order given in the OP seems (based on my experimentation) to be slightly off, so I present a (hopefully) somewhat optimized order, in a bit more detail:
9 Pylon
13 Gateway(1)
15 Assimilator(2)
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
19 Zealot(3)
21 Assimilator
22 ***CUT PROBES***
22 Pylon
22 Warpgate Research(4)
22 Stalker(5)
24 Gateway
24 ***RESUME PROBES***
25 Sentry(6)
27 Gateway
30 Pylon
31 Sentry(7)
34 Pylon
34 Zealot(8)
37 ***CUT PROBES***
37 Zealot x3
43 Nexus(9)
43 Sentry x3
49 Pylon
At this point, I'm not really clear on it. Whether or not you resume probe production depends on what you see with your attack, how successful the attack is, and so forth.
Standard disclaimer:
Given the length of this opening, there are a large number of things that should cause you to veer off track or abandon it altogether, although offhand I can't think of all that many.
(1) Chronoboost twice continuously after the pylon completes, everything builds with constant probe production if you scout on 13.
(2) You can squeeze another chronoboost in here and still get the pylon down in time. Unless there is a reason to be saving chronoboosts, I'm not sure why you wouldn't do this.
(3) I _think_ you can start this on 18 with a 19th probe queued.
(4) One chronoboost
(5) One chronoboost
(6) You will not be able to chrono this immediately, but it will come up before it finishes and you can chrono through to the second sentry.
(7) From the second gateway
(8) If you try to sneak this zealot in, you need to chronoboost your second sentry from the first gateway asap, and your warpgates will morph out of sync. I think its worth it, since it doesn't delay the push as far as I can tell.
(9) This is the probe I send to proxy, unless my scout probe is still alive. On long ass maps you may have to send earlier.
Hopefully this is useful, and I mean no offence :x
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On March 19 2011 14:04 kzn wrote:
Personally, I've always preferred strict food numbers for a build order, as long as they're carefully refined so you're not doing stupid shit. In addition, the build order given in the OP seems (based on my experimentation) to be slightly off
Just curious, how is it off? I intentionally left no food marks as people like to open in different ways. Some prefer a 14 gate off 9 scout, and some like to 13 gate scout. So, I only added to the OP what you need to do, as I think it helps with learning to play solid rather than memorizing long lists of inflexibility.
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Cecil you are just the greatest person. Thanks!
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On March 19 2011 14:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 14:04 kzn wrote:
Personally, I've always preferred strict food numbers for a build order, as long as they're carefully refined so you're not doing stupid shit. In addition, the build order given in the OP seems (based on my experimentation) to be slightly off Just curious, how is it off? I intentionally left no food marks as people like to open in different ways. Some prefer a 14 gate off 9 scout, and some like to 13 gate scout. So, I only added to the OP what you need to do, as I think it helps with learning to play solid rather than memorizing long lists of inflexibility.
You put down 14 Assimilator, and as far as I can tell 15 offers no disadvantage and makes it somewhat easier to execute (and you did 15s in the replays iirc too). Core @ 100% of a 13gate is actually on 17 food, and requires a probe cut, and again offers limited to no advantage. Obviously, there's also the bit where I managed to almost sneak in a zealot at no cost, but that's not something I'm absolutely sure of.
I am of the opinion that a 9scout-14 is flat out worse than a 9-13scout, but if people disagree with me thats a fairly minimal modification and I suspect wouldn't require anything except slightly different chronoboost timing.
The "off" bit is directed a bit more at the builds you do in the replays, where the assimilator and pylon are reversed and chronoboosts seem to be a bit less streamlined.
I don't disagree that memorizing a list and being inflexible because of it is a bad idea, but personally I've always found it easier to use food counts to trigger the steps in my opening, and as long as I put in the time to refine it so the food counts are accurate, know what information requires me to deviate from it and how, and have a general idea of how to force a game back on track the difference is essentially personal.
Regardless, I merely wanted to add a more precise order in case other people are like me in how they like to learn openings, not to imply that the version posted is strictly the best.
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Hey guys I was wondering if stealing gas would be any good for this build. It would help stop cloaked banshee. Or is the idea all about its good if they tech because it means you can just kill them, meaning stealing the gas would be counter productive.
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Anyone kind enough to post replays using this build against any form of early rax aggression? I like this build a lot but 3 raxes just kill me, especially in the lower leagues.
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On March 19 2011 15:24 ThaSlayer wrote:
Anyone kind enough to post replays using this build against any form of early rax aggression? I like this build a lot but 3 raxes just kill me, especially in the lower leagues.
Yeah I'll make you guys one later. I can't today (sick, and not at my desktop).
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Ive had alot of success using ghosts to bust out of toss contains. simply make him use a bunch of FFs, and sneak a ghost down real quick (this should work as the toss cant watch the ramp 100% of the time) emp some sentries, and run down ramp with stimmed rines/rauders. even if he cuts u in half, u should b okay as emp will wreck all his sheilds and u can pull back to ur ledge so ull be protected by the others.
I have a really sick ghost FE timing push build that kills this strat
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Well he is just sitting at the bottom of the ramp waiting for your units to come down. He has all the time in the world to make whatever spread he wants. 2 EMPs could MAYBE get 3 sentries. Not that it isn't a big deal losing that much energy, but the toss should have 5+ sentries by that point, depending on when he put down his robo, and how many stalkers he made. Worst case scenario, he only has one sentry with energy, throws down a FF at the very bottom of the ramp and starts running for his base. He might have lost the contain, but his nexus is up, you invested in ghost tech when he is going to transition into colossi very soon, and his army is still threatening enough that switching into harass mode is very risky once you expose yourself by putting down an expo.
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On March 19 2011 15:24 ThaSlayer wrote:
Anyone kind enough to post replays using this build against any form of early rax aggression? I like this build a lot but 3 raxes just kill me, especially in the lower leagues.
http://drop.sc/1523 - Vs quick banshee.
This replay from OP actually is a 3 rax opening
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Just tried it, it seems like this is the opening I was hoping to found. Aggressive, safe, no late game disadvantage, macro focused, posibillity to kill your oponent immediately. I prefer it over 1gate FE, because it allows aggressive play. Thank you. More replays would be appreciated
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My TvP is perhaps my strongest MU and I almost always 1 Rax Conc. Shell FE into 3 Rax Stim > tech to Starport. Of course I throw down a bunker or two at my expo, or if getting very early pressured one at the top of my ramp while making SCV's out of my 2nd CC. If you go heavy Zealot you will get stopped quite easily with the Marauders.
I also never wall against Protoss. You are asking to get into a lot of trouble if you do that. I am also never afraid to pull SCV's because I am usually ahead in the worker department (especially with Mules). That's my usual opening and I haven't lost to early Protoss aggression in a long time. Usually I am the one doing the aggression :p
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On March 19 2011 15:24 ThaSlayer wrote:
Anyone kind enough to post replays using this build against any form of early rax aggression? I like this build a lot but 3 raxes just kill me, especially in the lower leagues.
You need to lead with a probe while heading to the Terrans base, if you get caught in the middle by 3rax it is an instant loss. You can usually tell by the units at the top of the ramp if is or isn't a 3rax, usually if it is a 3rax Terran won't even bother to get Bunkers or just have a ton of shit lol
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EPT
