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On June 25 2011 04:29 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 04:13 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 25 2011 04:09 Teoita wrote:On June 25 2011 04:01 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 24 2011 15:04 PeggyHill wrote:
Just played a game using this, close air positions on Shakuras, lost to quick cloaked banshee :/
I know this is a great build no doubt, but it feels like it will be BO loss vs quick cloakshees every time. I just can't see how this build can be considered safe. You didn't play a reactive game. How many gas geysers did he have before a marine? How many barracks did he have before a marine? Did he get a tech lab on his first barracks? How many barracks did he even have? What are his marine movements? Is he staying up his ramp? Was there a reaper built? You should have placed a forge if you played properly, in order to have a cannon near-finished when the banshee got there. Do you think that in this case, a forge is a better choice than a robo? If i see lots of marines, no tech lab on the rax etc i will usually throw down a robo, but it's usually before the expansion, and i feel it slows my expo down a good deal...let's face it, 3 gate robo expo kinda sucks. I have never defended banshees with a forge, wouldn't it be easy for the banshees to snipe your outlying buildings, like a couple pylons, and maybe even a gateway? What purpose was the robo going to serve in a situation where you open with a lot of gateway aggression? Immortals are too slow to be aggressive at this point, and Colossus would lead you into a defensive game for a long time (unless close positions or allin). So in this example it would be to get an observer. That's 225/175 to detect a banshee that cost 300/300 (including cloak), and assuming you suffer probe loss you're still left with a useless robo. A forge allows you to save your ever valuable vespene, and perhaps spend that 100 vespene on an upgrade. Basically the forge will more than likely have more utility than a robo at this point in time. I believe a rough banshee timing would be 7 minutes 30 seconds. Nah robo is much more valuable as a response to cloaked banshees then forge. Forge doesn't cover everything, doesn't give you scouting and doesn't really give you map control. Forge + cannon is also hardly faster then robo + obs, as forge + cannon is 85 secs while robo + obs is around 95 secs (assuming 1 chrono on the obs). Banshee play could also be just without cloak as a setup for a tank/banshee/marine push which you don't know before putting the forge/robo down. Robo is immensely useful against this push as it allows you to follow them with obs. Cannons do absolutely nothing against the tank variety of the push. Finally gas is actually a less precious commodity against tech builds then minerals really. Any tech build makes sentries weak (and you have some already anyway) and usually requires mass zealot/stalker to stop. I rather spend 250m 250g for 2 obs then 450 for 2 cannons... The build overall is still weak against fast banshee play though, if i'm not really sure i vastly prefer a 2 gate variation, it expo's slightly faster and is a bit less awkward against tech builds and the like while having hardly less pressure (because it uses the gateways more efficiently).
I don't really disagree with the utility of the robo, I just think that it's more likely a forge will be more useful. Just depends on how you want to play.
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On June 25 2011 04:32 CecilSunkure wrote:
Just depends on how you want to play.
I agree, it definitely comes down to preference. Adel and - sometimes - TT1 play it with forge and fast thirds (what is one base terran gonna do about it?). Personally, I don't like 3 gate openings when I suspect one base tech play. But then again it is also very map-dependent...
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Italy12246 Posts
Thank you for the responses  . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did?
edit: thanks cecil, will do.
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On June 25 2011 04:38 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 04:32 CecilSunkure wrote:
Just depends on how you want to play. I agree, it definitely comes down to preference. Adel and - sometimes - TT1 play it with forge and fast thirds (what is one base terran gonna do about it?). Personally, I don't like 3 gate openings when I suspect one base tech play. But then again it is also very map-dependent...
Yeah I generally use aggressive 3 gate openings on maps without a choky natural, and when I'm fairly sure a command center had gone down. It just takes familiarizing yourself with the different signs of different openings to be able to choose your own appropriate opening.
On June 25 2011 04:41 Teoita wrote:Thank you for the responses . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did?
That makes no sense to me if you're going to be aggressive. The point is to delay the Terran expo and force the pace of the game. How is sinking 200/100 going to help you do this? Watch my replay in the OP against SiN for an idea of how to use a forge in the face of banshees (you could have gotten a robo instead).
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Thanks so much for making this thread.
Just out of completely curiosity, what level are the replays you uploaded?
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On June 25 2011 04:46 tuestresfat wrote:
Thanks so much for making this thread.
Just out of completely curiosity, what level are the replays you uploaded?
What level..? Uhh I can't remember where I was ranked back then. Top thousand of Master league? I think I uploaded one with SiN who's a pretty good teammate of mine.
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The three gate pressure expand is, in my opinion, one of the most strongest Protoss vs Terran openings and, with a small edit or two, allows you to make space and get an observer in time to counter any Banshee-based counter attacks, furthering my liking of this build.
In short, I like to orientate between the standard 1 gate fast expand, two gate expand pressure Naniwa style, and 3 gate pressure expand pressure-based. However, like the others before me requested, can you upload some new replays of you performing this build CecilSunkure? I tried to use this build a few times and, since the new patch and the few changes, it hasn't been so succesful as before, and I have been forced to use 1 gate fast expand as my new main build.
But overall, I like it as a good build to use as a variety when in other best of games against Terran players, but I would like to see an "updated" version with updated replays so we can see if any adjustments are to be made.
Overall, thanks for sharing this with us CecilSunkure! :D
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On June 25 2011 04:47 Saber96 wrote:
The three gate pressure expand is, in my opinion, one of the most strongest Protoss vs Terran openings and, with a small edit or two, allows you to make space and get an observer in time to counter any Banshee-based counter attacks, furthering my liking of this build.
In short, I like to orientate between the standard 1 gate fast expand, two gate expand pressure Naniwa style, and 3 gate pressure expand pressure-based. However, like the others before me requested, can you upload some new replays of you performing this build CecilSunkure? I tried to use this build a few times and, since the new patch and the few changes, it hasn't been so succesful as before, and I have been forced to use 1 gate fast expand as my new main build.
But overall, I like it as a good build to use as a variety when in other best of games against Terran players, but I would like to see an "updated" version with updated replays so we can see if any adjustments are to be made.
Overall, thanks for sharing this with us CecilSunkure! :D
if cecil can't upload any replays, can someone else upload a recent replay as well? thanks :D
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Really it's all the same except a slight chronoboost difference. So, just spend an extra chrono on for example, warpgate tech. Just make sure you get your gateways to finish when warpgate finished, and be sure to spend chrono on warpgate (iirc I do 3 chronos). There's hardly a difference at all.
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On June 25 2011 04:41 Teoita wrote:Thank you for the responses . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did? edit: thanks cecil, will do.
going robo too early drops the potential for pressure completely, if you really insist on going robo just go 1 gate expo or gate-robo-gate expo (with 2 gas) then. Those builds have a robo fairly quick and an expansion, you can't expand, get robo and pressure all at the same time though.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 25 2011 05:38 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 04:41 Teoita wrote:Thank you for the responses . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did? edit: thanks cecil, will do. going robo too early drops the potential for pressure completely, if you really insist on going robo just go 1 gate expo or gate-robo-gate expo (with 2 gas) then. Those builds have a robo fairly quick and an expansion, you can't expand, get robo and pressure all at the same time though.
I guess the core of my question before was if it's possible to get a robo in time to be 100% safe from cloak, while at the same time putting on some pressure, and the answer appearently is no. Maybe people with better mechanics than me can, but when i play it feels like at 6 minutes i have to 1) expand 2) warp in a round of units to start pressure and 3) start working towards detection, and the resources just aren't enough. Thanks for the help though ^^
edit: sorry to sound annoying, i didn't mean to. In the replay you busted the ramp and cancelled cloak however. Should i expect to do that 100% of the time, or at the very least delay him, given correct execution of the initial push?
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On June 25 2011 05:43 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 05:38 Markwerf wrote:On June 25 2011 04:41 Teoita wrote:Thank you for the responses . So, since i really like the robo because im addicted to observer scouting, does it make sense to go expo>robo>round of warpins, essentially delaying my second round after warpgate, and accept whatever probe losses i may take from fast cloak since i expoed faster than he did? edit: thanks cecil, will do. going robo too early drops the potential for pressure completely, if you really insist on going robo just go 1 gate expo or gate-robo-gate expo (with 2 gas) then. Those builds have a robo fairly quick and an expansion, you can't expand, get robo and pressure all at the same time though. I guess the core of my question before was if it's possible to get a robo in time to be 100% safe from cloak, while at the same time putting on some pressure, and the answer appearently is no. Maybe people with better mechanics than me can, but when i play it feels like at 6 minutes i have to 1) expand 2) warp in a round of units to start pressure and 3) start working towards detection, and the resources just aren't enough. Thanks for the help though ^^
I don't know how many times I have to say it, but seriously go watch the replays. I vsed banshee. I want you to realize you can bust up the ramp against fast banshee and probably just kill them unless they keep their banshees back to defend, thus giving you time to get cannons or robo.
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i've been trying this against terran(im only silver league) and has been working successfully most of the time but i think 3 occasions i've lost to what seems liek a 5racks all in with scvs and marines and it usually hits just as my expo has gone up but not in time for my robo to get laid down. any advice?
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On June 25 2011 05:57 proerthantoss wrote:
i've been trying this against terran(im only silver league) and has been working successfully most of the time but i think 3 occasions i've lost to what seems liek a 5racks all in with scvs and marines and it usually hits just as my expo has gone up but not in time for my robo to get laid down. any advice?
So they allin you off of 5 barracks? Constantly warp in units from the gateways, and then pull all your probes if they have all their scvs. Sentry guardian shield and FF to prevent kiting.
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someone asked me for a replay, this was the only place i could upload it
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=217184
Its not great, im only platinum and ive had alot of trouble in PvT recently:
Getting caught out cos i expand and he all ins me.
I 3 gate expand and cloak banshee kills me
He expands inside his base and i dont scout it. I just continue building units and so my expansion comes late when i finally see his
This game wasnt great. My timings were wrong, i dunno why i went 2nd gas before zealot, but because of that mistake i had to chrono the zealot. As you can see it left me with too much gas left over (think i hit 500 a few times -_-)
The gas steal is good vs terran anyway, but close air positions even better to slow down drops + banshee.
Keeping vision is so important - hence the FF on the ramp to the tower. It allows you to see if more pressure is coming and thats probably the reason i won. Using the warp in to stop more reinforcements. If he got all 3 tanks siege outside my base im dead, thats when you revert to dropping his base. But just 3 zealots were enough to stop trickling marines and siege tanks coming.
My robo/expo came late. because i came out of the engagement so far ahead (besides the poor micro on my first immortal) i thought i'd kill him right there so didnt wanna expand.
Overall it was a bit sloppy but i still held it with so much ease
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droping a robo immediately after nexus makes this build a lot more versatile. you can still pressure and constant production out of three gates if you cut probes. but the robo makes you deal with 1-1-1 openings much better. if you suspect banshee rather than risking going up the ramp you can just be defensive with ur first ob and get ahead by letting his banshee do no damage.
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Siege Expand, 2 Factory/ 1/1/1 push = Protoss's first pressure push owned
Cant see how this works if the opponent has at least 2 or more siege tanks and a bunker wall off. Which any non-bioing terran probably will. 2Rax pressure quicker and probably be okay with fast Stimpack.
Only bad scenerios for this build I can think of. Gonna be semi-useful against any harassment builds except for Cloaked Banshees (I think that might be an auto-win)
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CecilSunkure what do you think about playing this defensively with researching hallucination for scouting?
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On June 26 2011 01:23 aaycumi wrote:
Siege Expand, 2 Factory/ 1/1/1 push = Protoss's first pressure push owned
Cant see how this works if the opponent has at least 2 or more siege tanks and a bunker wall off. Which any non-bioing terran probably will. 2Rax pressure quicker and probably be okay with fast Stimpack.
Only bad scenerios for this build I can think of. Gonna be semi-useful against any harassment builds except for Cloaked Banshees (I think that might be an auto-win)
I've played this against a siege expand, and what you do is just set up a contain at the bottom of the ramp. Once he starts inching siege tanks down the ramp you can back away and let him take his natural. Basically I just tried to delay the expo enough so I wouldn't be behind from a 3 Gate Expand.
Against cloak banshee, you can be prepared if you see signs (early gas, lots of marines) and get a preemptive robo, or just get an earlier forge. Either will be fine. I also included a replay in the OP of me busting the ramp of my friend who was going for cloak banshee.
On July 12 2011 16:45 whereismymind wrote:
CecilSunkure what do you think about playing this defensively with researching hallucination for scouting?
You better hope he doesn't expand before you do
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I agree with that, but I just never feel comfortable when I play agressive, because he can drop blue flame hellions, and I never manage to kill his hellions fast enough(with all my army in front). Their damage is ridicilous(aoe), and I lose at least 10 probes if I have my army on his doors(while he is camping with 2 bunkers).
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EPT
