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On April 28 2011 09:51 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 09:43 Gradius wrote:
So what will happen to this build if the PTR changes go through? This is such a good build. Since the whole point of this opening is having really crisp macro to get everything you need very quickly, it will be outdated, though the underlying concept will remain (a new variant can be created).
although it won't be as pertinent since PVP won't be auto-4gate anymore
User was warned for this post
lolwarning
please put more thought into your post and understand the matchup - this wouldn't help pvp very much. Try it and post replays, although this build will work in PvP at a lower level...
Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
The Mod Staff
i put plenty of thought in my post tyvm. with the PTR changes 4gate won't be the be-all-end-all PVP opener that it used to be, so a tailored anti-4gate build will obviously be less sparkly. I honestly don't understand the critique in my warning at all.
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On April 25 2011 10:07 galzohar wrote:
When going for any kind of 1 rax FE I'm really not sure what to do against this. Now I doubt the answer is to just not go 1 rax FE on most maps, since 1 rax FE is an extremely common build in GSL in just about every matchup. Also, as far as I understand from this thread and others, 2 rax expand isn't exactly good against this either? And obviously 3 rax is not a build you really see at competitive levels at all... I have yet to find a game in GSL where the T goes for 1 rax FE and effectively stop 3-4 gate strategies, so I'm still wondering what I should be doing...
Also, is there a "e-mail me when this thread gets replies" button somewhere that I have missed?
I was wondering about this myself...In the last GSL WC, MVP held off a 4 gate on Taldarim by san and MKP held gate + proxy void by mc on Crevasse using 1 rax FE. Both big maps but both P had proxies. The trick is to stay no gas until 4 rax, power marines, bunker up, and ride the economic (mineral) advantage. Take the nat with CC ASAP so you don't get contained. Going gas and tech leaves you with too few units, even if you have mara. You can even transition into 6 rax no gas push with a few scvs against the P expo like virus vs anypro on Taldarim. I believe this works better on maps with a small to medium natural choke so not delta or metal. Otherwise, cc in base and tech to drops, but you'll be slightly behind in Eco as is the whole point of this pvt build.
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On April 28 2011 10:16 watwat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 09:51 CecilSunkure wrote:On April 28 2011 09:43 Gradius wrote:
So what will happen to this build if the PTR changes go through? This is such a good build. Since the whole point of this opening is having really crisp macro to get everything you need very quickly, it will be outdated, though the underlying concept will remain (a new variant can be created). although it won't be as pertinent since PVP won't be auto-4gate anymore User was warned for this postlolwarning Show nested quote +please put more thought into your post and understand the matchup - this wouldn't help pvp very much. Try it and post replays, although this build will work in PvP at a lower level...
Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
The Mod Staff i put plenty of thought in my post tyvm. with the PTR changes 4gate won't be the be-all-end-all PVP opener that it used to be, so a tailored anti-4gate build will obviously be less sparkly. I honestly don't understand the critique in my warning at all.
But why are you posting this in a pvt thread?
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On April 28 2011 13:43 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 10:16 watwat wrote:On April 28 2011 09:51 CecilSunkure wrote:On April 28 2011 09:43 Gradius wrote:
So what will happen to this build if the PTR changes go through? This is such a good build. Since the whole point of this opening is having really crisp macro to get everything you need very quickly, it will be outdated, though the underlying concept will remain (a new variant can be created). although it won't be as pertinent since PVP won't be auto-4gate anymore User was warned for this postlolwarning please put more thought into your post and understand the matchup - this wouldn't help pvp very much. Try it and post replays, although this build will work in PvP at a lower level...
Thanks in advance for your cooperation,
The Mod Staff i put plenty of thought in my post tyvm. with the PTR changes 4gate won't be the be-all-end-all PVP opener that it used to be, so a tailored anti-4gate build will obviously be less sparkly. I honestly don't understand the critique in my warning at all. But why are you posting this in a pvt thread?
it all makes sense now >_<
although i still didn't think being a raving idiot was worthy of a warning :p
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Is this build still applicable?
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On May 13 2011 07:39 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Is this build still applicable?
Not so much Tal'Darim or Shakuras due to bunkering ramps. Otherwise yeah.
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Thanks Cecil. Can you post some new replays post patch?
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On May 13 2011 07:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Not so much Tal'Darim or Shakuras due to bunkering ramps. Otherwise yeah.
I'm curious as to what bunkering ramps had to do with the patch? Did the 20 second increase in research change the timing a bit to allow Terrans to bunker their ramps on those maps, or is it just something they figured out that has nothing to do with the patch?
Also, would you say that there's anything differently you could do in the build order to optimize things, in light of the new patch?
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On May 15 2011 06:35 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:41 CecilSunkure wrote:On May 13 2011 07:39 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Is this build still applicable? Not so much Tal'Darim or Shakuras due to bunkering ramps. Otherwise yeah. I'm curious as to what bunkering ramps had to do with the patch? Did the 20 second increase in research change the timing a bit to allow Terrans to bunker their ramps on those maps, or is it just something they figured out that has nothing to do with the patch? Also, would you say that there's anything differently you could do in the build order to optimize things, in light of the new patch?
From my experience you just get a unit or two more from your early bunkers before warpgate finishes, and then it's all about the same.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 15 2011 06:35 HolyArrow wrote:
I'm curious as to what bunkering ramps had to do with the patch? Did the 20 second increase in research change the timing a bit to allow Terrans to bunker their ramps on those maps, or is it just something they figured out that has nothing to do with the patch?
I think, as long as your purpose is not to kill directly the Terran but to pressure him, keep him on one base and take economical advantage, even if he has time to defend and turtle, the trade is still good for you.
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On May 13 2011 08:19 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Thanks Cecil. Can you post some new replays post patch?
Yeah would love that aswell.
Been doing your build for a while now and I had great success with it.
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I assume this build needs to be altered because of the warpgate patch. Does anyone have any replays?
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How do you handle blue flame hellion drops with this build early?
Since all your army is outside pressuring(while he has bunker at his ramp), he can easly drop hellion and kill your economy in 8 seconds.
Would love to see replays after patch too. Thanks.
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you should be able to kill him if he goes for 1 base blue hellion drop rush
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you see, if terran rushes blue flame hellion, he can drop around 7 minutes 30 seconds. so my question is how do you properly scout what is terran doing inside his base(blue flame or banshee) since you don't have observer?
i put few cannons in mineral line to prevent this blindly, ..
or can you kill him before 7minute 30s incase of banshee or blue flame?
halluc for scouting very very early inside?
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On May 29 2011 09:10 whereismymind wrote:
you see, if terran rushes blue flame hellion, he can drop around 7 minutes 30 seconds. so my question is how do you properly scout what is terran doing inside his base(blue flame or banshee) since you don't have observer?
i put few cannons in mineral line to prevent this blindly, ..
or can you kill him before 7minute 30s incase of banshee or blue flame?
halluc for scouting very very early inside?
3 Gate strikes well before 7:30. If he is trying to back stab you with a medivac and hellions. He will be dead because that is a lot of resources not at his front. If he doesnt want to die, a helion will come to the front to stop you from killing him, when you see the helion guess what, you scouted.
Helions are bad at defense anyway, 3 gate kills or punishes this drop rush almost outright given congruent skill levels.
Thats what this build excels at, scouting. You don't need to see the factory if a tank is shooting you. You don't need to see the ghost academy if a ghost is shooting you. And if a ton of marines and marauders shoot you, guess what you just scouted an early marine marauder rush. And if he is trying to hide hi-tech units. He will die since 3 gate is fairly aggressive and cant be held off if terran is doing excessive teching. And if he is doing a delayed tech, you are going to see it with the robo!
This build has like no glaring holes in it, the only way you can lose is if terran is the better player, and there is no problem with that. Just dont get too aggressive with the poke, like lose all your shit to a ton of infantry.
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As a Terran player the best way I find to deal with this if you happen to be say, 1rax expanding, is to defend the 3gate push with bunkers and marines, and then use siege tanks to break the obnoxious contain they set up afterwards. You can also force them to go back by utilizing reapers if you are heavy on barracks, or with drops if your tech is taking you in that direction.
The strength of this build is that by forcefielding the ramp, it makes the terran's expansion line up with the protoss' even if the terran's was much earlier, so you do have to do something to get out of that contain and consolidate your expansion.
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Hm i have been playing around with this build abit, this is what i came up with:
9 pylon - 10 crono nexes
12 gate
14 gas - crono nexes
16 pylon - crono nexes after pylon finish
~16 cybercore
17 zealot
warpgate research crono it twice
22 stalker - after stalker finishes you have to wait 3 sec then you can start your sentry
24 pylon
2 gates when you got the minerals (after these are done make 1 zealot and 1 sentry out of them)
29 wait with probe and get 2nd gas
build a 2nd sentry rght after 1st one is ready
build expo when you have the minerals
get a proxy pylon and start moving when your sentry and zealot are finished from gate 2 and 3
~warp in 2 zealot 1 sentry
at 6:30 you will have 4 sentry 4 zealot 1 stalker
This build is used mainly if you scout a 1 racks techlap expand, they will have stim aprox around 7-8 mins depending on their build (on high diamond most terran are not able to kill your scouting probe if you send it in for a 2nd peak when he only has 1 marine)
if you have done enough dmg you could add 3 gates and get full saturated natural without gass (16 probes) and 16 probes in main with 2 gas and continue pressure for the win.
please give your thoughts 
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I've been thinking . . .
A sentry build time was decreased five seconds, and wg build time was increased by 20 seconds. So theoretically, you could build three sentries before wg. That is because its 37*3=111 and wg is 160 and stalker is 42 second. Therefore you have 118 seconds left to build 111 seconds worth of units.
That said, is it then better to have that extra warpin and be 20 seconds late, but with 1 extra unit, or is it better to be 20 second earlier without that extra unit. Of course to be 20 seconds earlier you need to sacrifice 2 cbs on wg that could be used on probes, warpgates, etc.
Also, I've been having trouble with banshees, when should I throw down my robo facility?
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On May 29 2011 09:31 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 09:10 whereismymind wrote:
you see, if terran rushes blue flame hellion, he can drop around 7 minutes 30 seconds. so my question is how do you properly scout what is terran doing inside his base(blue flame or banshee) since you don't have observer?
i put few cannons in mineral line to prevent this blindly, ..
or can you kill him before 7minute 30s incase of banshee or blue flame?
halluc for scouting very very early inside? 3 Gate strikes well before 7:30. If he is trying to back stab you with a medivac and hellions. He will be dead because that is a lot of resources not at his front. If he doesnt want to die, a helion will come to the front to stop you from killing him, when you see the helion guess what, you scouted. Helions are bad at defense anyway, 3 gate kills or punishes this drop rush almost outright given congruent skill levels. Thats what this build excels at, scouting. You don't need to see the factory if a tank is shooting you. You don't need to see the ghost academy if a ghost is shooting you. And if a ton of marines and marauders shoot you, guess what you just scouted an early marine marauder rush. And if he is trying to hide hi-tech units. He will die since 3 gate is fairly aggressive and cant be held off if terran is doing excessive teching. And if he is doing a delayed tech, you are going to see it with the robo! This build has like no glaring holes in it, the only way you can lose is if terran is the better player, and there is no problem with that. Just dont get too aggressive with the poke, like lose all your shit to a ton of infantry.
If they double bunker the ramp with marines you can't push past it and you still have no idea what tech they're going for. That's the main problem I have with this build.
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EPT
