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Here is me as a gold player vs a Plat player:
http://www.mediafire.com/?vc1qtcp4zzdzqtf
Start off with the build order, and the first engagement i get all his sentries and I see he's going zealot heavy.
In my second push with stim I'm a little worried because his COL are on the high ground and I can't really get to them, but I do enough dmg, I pump out more, expand to my third and go again.
At this point I'm not killing his COL so I'm a bit worried that I'm going to screw this up. I go north and kill his third, so I know he's pretty much fucked because he has 3-5 COL and two base, plus he's lost a lot of zealots.
He goes for my third and I kill all his other gateway units and almost nail one more COL.
I see DTs but I always throw down some turrets for OBS so I'm not that vulnerable to them.
Last engagement is a zillion marines and tons of vikings vs damaged COL and some Zealot.
Totally luzly. At the 15 min mark the units lost tab starts to equal out, but I'm always way ahead on resources.
Very very fun build. I use to use the mass banshee build from synystyr which had a 50/50 win ratio for me from early rushes, but this seems pretty unbeatable. So sick of losing to protoss cheese too.
I think the main thing about this build that works, is that you're keeping him from getting a death ball by killing in waves, and eventually you win because you have one more wave coming.
Thanks!
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think this will die with patch 1.3, zealots with charge and upgraded defense will last you long enough to get a death ball with collosus and once you have critical mass there is nothing the T can do.
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Tried this a few times now - really fun. Fairly effective too. At my humble plat/diamond level.
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if everything this strategy got even better with 1.3
sure delayed stim timing is bad, but you can instead go for other timing pushes +1, combat shield
stim would still kick in soon after.
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For 1.3, what do you think about adjusting the BO to get stim finished at around the same time? E.g. start building the refinery before the 2nd and 3rd rax. That should shave off the extra 30 seconds for stim (though it might open a timing window for your opponent).
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I tried it last night vs a protoss and a zerg and it worked perfectly!! Thanks bro!
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On March 23 2011 21:44 freetgy wrote:
if everything this strategy got even better with 1.3
sure delayed stim timing is bad, but you can instead go for other timing pushes +1, combat shield
stim would still kick in soon after.
better? stim got nerfed and zealots got some kind of charge buff.
i guess P not being able to warp in storms anymore does benefit this build.
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I like this guide a lot, very comprehensive.
I feel like a way to battle this build as Protoss would be to narrow down how fast you can get Charge (haven't seen the 1.3 patch in action but getting at least 1 hit from a charge sounds like it'll be pretty dope vs marines), and to make sure you can get some sentries for force fields and guardian shields. I think I might DL your replays tonight, see when the push is, and try to work out some charge/sentry timings.
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On March 23 2011 22:36 FoFo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:44 freetgy wrote:
if everything this strategy got even better with 1.3
sure delayed stim timing is bad, but you can instead go for other timing pushes +1, combat shield
stim would still kick in soon after. better? stim got nerfed and zealots got some kind of charge buff. i guess P not being able to warp in storms anymore does benefit this build.
you can't get charge defending this build. if you go twilight for charge you will lose, cause you need AoE desperatly to combat the high marine numbers. straight HT already loses to this with Warp-In Storms now without those HTs are as viable as Carriers, take to long to build.
Charge Buff is a joke anyway (see the other thread) and with HT especially useless postpatch against this type of play obviously we are left with only Colossus, so the only thing that needs to be tweaked by terrans, do they manage to kill the colossus and keep the numbers low or not.
If you can, you can still expand alot, while i am always pressured and open to harass, it is incredible hard to set up a 3rd against mass marines.
Sure Stim delay seems huge, but isn't it just means the timing comes alittle later,
you still won't have range, you still won't have a second colossus and the attacking force will most likely be bigger.
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why wouldn't you be able to get charge?.....
zealots are much stronger against stim marines than stalkers, what the korean from the day9 did was only make zealot sentry and then add HT and archons
EDIT: the P should be able to hold on long enough with the stim delay. attacking as soon as possible is an important part of this build, if you wait too long the P has so many units your marines are not as effective.
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Still no idea how to beat this (Masters).
Try going fast Colossus and get bum rushed by 30 marines when only a single Colossus is out and die, try going mass gateway and i'm unable to transition, ever...
Tried making Cannons but the waves of marines just stim and pick it off :/
why wouldn't you be able to get charge?.....
zealots are much stronger against stim marines than stalkers, what the korean from the day9 did was only make zealot sentry and then add HT and archons
Because it isn't efficient. You hold off the first few waves but eventually you lose steam because your investing soo much resources into units that barely ever survive. HT tech isn't the way, if you watched that Daily Vod, in the end he had to waste storms on marine packs that were only worth around 300-400 minerals, 50minerals 150 gas for 300-400 minerals isn't a good trade when the Terran is on 3+ bases, especially since the High Templar dies straight after to the next wave of reinforcements who stim and pick it off.
You need a much more persistent AOE unit like the Colossus which you can keep alive and eventually build up to a critical mass. The problem is, that Terran isn't restricted to marines, they can easily tech switch to tech lab Marauder or reactor Viking.
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On March 23 2011 23:08 Dommk wrote:Still no idea how to beat this (Masters). Try going fast Colossus and get bum rushed by 30 marines when only a single Colossus is out and die, try going mass gateway and i'm unable to transition, ever... Tried making Cannons but the waves of marines just stim and pick it off :/ Show nested quote +why wouldn't you be able to get charge?.....
zealots are much stronger against stim marines than stalkers, what the korean from the day9 did was only make zealot sentry and then add HT and archons Because it isn't efficient. You hold off the first few waves but eventually you lose steam because your investing soo much resources into units that barely ever survive. HT tech isn't the way, if you watched that Daily Vod, in the end he had to waste storms on marine packs that were only worth around 300-400 minerals, 50minerals 150 gas for 300-400 minerals isn't a good trade when the Terran is on 3+ bases, especially since the High Templar dies straight after to the next wave of reinforcements who stim and pick it off. You need a much more persistent AOE unit like the Colossus which you can keep alive and eventually build up to a critical mass. The problem is, that Terran isn't restricted to marines, they can easily tech switch to tech lab Marauder or reactor Viking.
thanks for your explanation.
what happens when you scout him doing this build (or is that hard? i main T), mass up units and attack with all your probes? the early game definitly seems like the weakest part of this marine marine marine build
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I've used this style with transition to shielded Marine/Ghost +1/0
It is insane! There is nothing in Bronze that can beat this. I've went up against Voids, mass stalkers, 4gate and colossi rush.
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On March 23 2011 23:18 FoFo wrote:
thanks for your explanation.
what happens when you scout him doing this build (or is that hard? i main T), mass up units and attack with all your probes? the early game definitly seems like the weakest part of this marine marine marine build
it is true it is weakest in the early phase that is where you have to exploit it.
No Gas is a huge tell in that Part for either FE or Mass Marines, immediatly press out 2-3 Stalkers pressure, this is very important to weaken the pushes he will do.
This snowballs into making his first push weaker/come later, which gives you enough time to Expo and tech to colossus, but still i would recommend getting more colossus and Macro instead of getting aggressiv.
as long as you can assure a good fighting position you can prevent heavy losses and keep expanding and transition into storm.
obviously Storm/Colossus rapes marines. (straight storm tech won't)
i can post a replay of me holding it when i am at home.
On March 23 2011 23:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I've used this style with transition to shielded Marine/Ghost +1/0
It is insane! There is nothing in Bronze that can beat this. I've went up against Voids, mass stalkers, 4gate and colossi rush.
this build will get you easily into Diamond _(that sad actually, cause it is so easy to execute)
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hey freetgy,
as a terran who took on this strategy recently with 3-0 record in SEA gold, I agree with you that the weakest point of the build is the early game. Upon seeing no gas, the P should chronoboost 2 stalkers and move out with the first zealot.
However, I disagree with you that this build is worth diamond level. Most P are simply not prepared for this T strategy. If they come to TL forums to seek help, for example, then they are on the way to finding a counter.
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On March 24 2011 00:44 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:18 FoFo wrote:
thanks for your explanation.
what happens when you scout him doing this build (or is that hard? i main T), mass up units and attack with all your probes? the early game definitly seems like the weakest part of this marine marine marine build it is true it is weakest in the early phase that is where you have to exploit it. No Gas is a huge tell in that Part for either FE or Mass Marines, immediatly press out 2-3 Stalkers pressure, this is very important to weaken the pushes he will do. This snowballs into making his first push weaker/come later, which gives you enough time to Expo and tech to colossus, but still i would recommend getting more colossus and Macro instead of getting aggressiv. as long as you can assure a good fighting position you can prevent heavy losses and keep expanding and transition into storm. obviously Storm/Colossus rapes marines. (straight storm tech won't) i can post a replay of me holding it when i am at home. Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I've used this style with transition to shielded Marine/Ghost +1/0
It is insane! There is nothing in Bronze that can beat this. I've went up against Voids, mass stalkers, 4gate and colossi rush. this build will get you easily into Diamond _(that sad actually, cause it is so easy to execute)
aren't collosus a lot better in this situation?
2 collosus with some other units rape the small groups of marines this build uses.
and i ment going completely all in when he's making scv's, i think with enough probes you can break it
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Good information on starcraft strategy is difficult to find. I am glad I found this thread among the bulk. Well done
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here the replay of laddergame holding mass marines
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197632.jpg)
My opponent (Terran) hadn't mastered the build yet so it might not be the best demonstration but i also was experimenting how to deal best with it. My macro slips alot during that game but i think you get the idea.
PS:
was around 3k dia back then.
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I think this patch is good for this build, as COL don't really counter it (lulz) and only storms would.
Since nobody is going to be using storms anymore it's pretty much an auto-win.
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it is true it is weakest in the early phase that is where you have to exploit it.
No Gas is a huge tell in that Part for either FE or Mass Marines, immediatly press out 2-3 Stalkers pressure, this is very important to weaken the pushes he will do.
This snowballs into making his first push weaker/come later, which gives you enough time to Expo and tech to colossus, but still i would recommend getting more colossus and Macro instead of getting aggressiv.
as long as you can assure a good fighting position you can prevent heavy losses and keep expanding and transition into storm.
obviously Storm/Colossus rapes marines. (straight storm tech won't)
i can post a replay of me holding it when i am at home.
On March 23 2011 23:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Couple of stalkers shouldn't slow it because you're going to make bunkers anyway, or I would.
The reason it works is that if the guy has a COL or two then you can thin out the rest of his units and damage them, until his push is slowed down or he has to turn around and wait on more units.
Meanwhile you're expanding again, sending another wave, and getting ready for vikings. If he's using zealots you're really good shape as the vikings will be unchallenged.
Also with the mobility nature of the waves you can deny his expansions and put him even further behind.
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EPT
