EPTStimmedProbe’s Million Man Marine TvP Style
Last Update: March 13th, 2011
Before: “MMM = Marine, Marauder, Medivac”
After: “MMM = Marine, Marine, Marine”
Last Update: March 13th, 2011
Before: “MMM = Marine, Marauder, Medivac”
After: “MMM = Marine, Marine, Marine”
![[image loading]](http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/441d483eb2.jpg)
Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +
Hey everyone I am StimmedProbe! I am an upper level master league Terran player on the SEA server. I have had tremendous success on ladder, in tournaments and custom games with this build I am about to tell you guys about. It was inspired by day9 daily #264 in which he analyzed a game between a Protoss and a Terran on Xel-naga caverns. The Terran player in that game made only marines, expanded aggressively and was constantly in his opponent’s face. After tweaking the build a bit and testing it over 100 times I was able to optimize it and test it against every possible Protoss opening. I have never lost on ladder with this build and my practice partners, even though they know it is coming, rarely can ever stop it. It is so simple, so sweet and often invokes funny reactions from my opponents. I believe this build can be effective at any level, so long as your mechanics and game sense are decent; this build does not require ‘godlike multitasking or apm’ and is relatively easy to execute.
General Idea
+ Show Spoiler +
Marines are strong, very strong. Marines are cheap, very cheap. Marines rip apart every Protoss unit and only run into problems against Colossus and High Templars. The main idea is that you always keep the Colossus count low (low as in 1 or none) and you never give them enough time to tech to High Templars. A fast expansion allows you to support 10+ Barracks and the map will soon look like a river of dots traveling across the screen. After a few back and forth fights you will eventually overpower your opponent’s army with your million man marine army and force him to GG. Below is a video which shows the power of marines.
Demonstration Video
+ Show Spoiler +
Below is a game I played in the sc2sea community open. This was the closest I ever came to losing with this build. My opponent was a mid-level master league player with a good win percentage. The game itself is very intense and back and forth and showcases the general feel, execution and tactics of the build.
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
*Constant SCV Production Assumed*
10 – Supply Depot
12 – Barracks
15 – Orbital Command
@100% Barracks, que 2 marines
@250 minerals, move SCV to expo
18 – Command Center @ Natural
18 – Supply Depot
*Food count discontinued from here, constant scv/marine production*
@150 Minerals, Barracks
@150 Minerals, Barracks
@100 Minerals, Bunker
@75 Minerals, Refinery
@ 100% Refinery, 3 SCVs on gas
@ 64 gas, Tech lab on rax
@ 100 gas, pull two SCVs off gas
@ 100 gas, Research Stim pack
@100% Command Center, Transfer 6-8 SCVs to your natural
*Pump marines, SCVs, barracks, and supply depots constantly, build bunkers if necessary*
@Stim research 120/140 -> Push with your marines and salvage all but one or two of your bunkers.
You should have roughly 10 rax and 30 marines when stim is at 120/140 if you do this right.
Move out with your army and put two more SCVs back on gas, get an engineering bay and combat shields as you move out.
10 – Supply Depot
12 – Barracks
15 – Orbital Command
@100% Barracks, que 2 marines
@250 minerals, move SCV to expo
18 – Command Center @ Natural
18 – Supply Depot
*Food count discontinued from here, constant scv/marine production*
@150 Minerals, Barracks
@150 Minerals, Barracks
@100 Minerals, Bunker
@75 Minerals, Refinery
@ 100% Refinery, 3 SCVs on gas
@ 64 gas, Tech lab on rax
@ 100 gas, pull two SCVs off gas
@ 100 gas, Research Stim pack
@100% Command Center, Transfer 6-8 SCVs to your natural
*Pump marines, SCVs, barracks, and supply depots constantly, build bunkers if necessary*
@Stim research 120/140 -> Push with your marines and salvage all but one or two of your bunkers.
You should have roughly 10 rax and 30 marines when stim is at 120/140 if you do this right.
Move out with your army and put two more SCVs back on gas, get an engineering bay and combat shields as you move out.
General Gameplay
+ Show Spoiler +
After stimpack finishes constantly pressure the Protoss with your marine army. If your marine count drops below 10 or 15, pull back. Once it hits 30-35 go in again. Marines operate best at around 20-30 marines. Once the pressure starts, it should never stop for more than 20 or 30 seconds. You may need some marauders if you haven’t broken your opponent after 5 or 6 waves. Also make sure you are upgrading and getting attack/armor upgrades for your infantry. Don’t forget to get combat shield as well ASAP. If your opponent gets too many Colossus or HTs for your marines to handle, transition into Vikings or ghosts. Expand aggressively and add on reactors and additional barracks as the game carries on as well. The game should end in 12 to 18 minutes.
Reacting to Common Protoss Openings
+ Show Spoiler +
1 gate expo -> 6 gate timing push:+ Show Spoiler +
1gate expo -> 2 base Colossus: + Show Spoiler +
1 gate expo -> 2 base HTs: + Show Spoiler +
1 base Dts:+ Show Spoiler +
1 base ‘3/4gate-warp prism’:+ Show Spoiler +
1 base Colossus:+ Show Spoiler +
2gate Robo:+ Show Spoiler +
3gate Stargate:+ Show Spoiler +
3gate robo:+ Show Spoiler +
4 gate:+ Show Spoiler +
This will be a fairly tough match. You might initially have to play defensive because your opponent will have a large number of gateway units and sentries with full energy. Focus on killing the sentries and make sure you keep your army size at least 20. Fall back to bunkers if things go wrong to build back up to 30-35 marines.
1gate expo -> 2 base Colossus: + Show Spoiler +
This common opening should make for a fairly easy match because you will hit while the Colossus number is very low. They won’t have range either.
1 gate expo -> 2 base HTs: + Show Spoiler +
This has potential to be tough. The timing window is very slim. If you hit him at the right time, you should be able to just straight up win. However if he has multiple storms ready you will need to split your army well and start to get ghosts. You cannot continue to build pure marine as HTs destroy marine balls and archons do considerable damage to marines as well.
1 base Dts:+ Show Spoiler +
If you don’t spot this in time and you don’t have scans available you will probably lose. Throw down an engineering bay as soon as you notice dts. You need to tech up to ravens quickly and push once you got one. Your opponent shouldn’t have enough time to get out multiple Colossus or HTs by the time you have a raven.
1 base ‘3/4gate-warp prism’:+ Show Spoiler +
You need supply depots around your base to spot this, if your opponent can get multiple warps into your main, you will have problems. If you spot it quickly this should be easy to handle. Make sure you snipe the probe/pylon/warp prism quickly.
1 base Colossus:+ Show Spoiler +
This is a really rare build, but your marines should have stim by the time 2 Colossus come out. Simply stim forward and snipe the range less Colossus as fast as you can.
2gate Robo:+ Show Spoiler +
The most standard Protoss opening, and one of the easiest to beat. By the time you hit your opponent simply won’t have enough stuff to counter your marine ball because he went for the safe opening. By the time he figures out what you are doing with his observer it will be too late.
3gate Stargate:+ Show Spoiler +
Void rays and phoenixes melt to marines so fast it’s not even funny. This should be an auto win once you hold off the first void ray.
3gate robo:+ Show Spoiler +
Extremely common opening at the diamond level. Your opponent will most likely have 2 or 3 immortals; you will need multiple bunkers and SCVs ready to repair. Marines do well against immortals, but your bunkers will evaporate quite quickly leaving you potentially vulnerable.
4 gate:+ Show Spoiler +
A well executed 4-gate will hit when you have 1 or 2 bunkers. You will need to turtle and throw down multiple bunkers to defend. Try to slow down his 4 gate as much as possible by controlling the watch towers and denying the probe/pylon. If you have less than 3 bunkers you might have trouble with this. However, marines destroy gateway units fast when they have stim, so just turtle till you get stim out.
Other Important Points
+ Show Spoiler +
- You will probably get raped in the very first battle. The Protoss will forcefield and guardian shield and their army will probably roflstomp yours so hard you will probably think its gg, however as those sentries die off your army gets exponentially strong.
- Stim and dart forward and snipe any Colossus ASAP, you need to keep their numbers low. They won’t have the range upgrade by the time you hit them.
- Put supply depots at the edge of your base, you need time to react to drops. If you aren’t in position and the Protoss gets multiple warps or can elevator into your base you might be in trouble.
- Constantly update your rally points to where you think you will be in 40 seconds if all goes well. It’s better for your rally points to be too far forward than too far back because you can grab units as you retreat, where as in the heat of battle you might have trouble grabbing units a screen and a half in the back to reinforce the front lines.
- Make sure your control groups are setup properly. You need your command center, barracks and engineering bays at minimum hotkeyed. Preferably an SCV as well near your main to make supply depots if need be.
- Flanking with marines help, it helps you get that deadly concave quicker. It also prevents you from getting stormed and laser beamed to death while in ‘ball formation’
- Micro your marines constantly once the push starts. You shouldn’t have to look at your base ever. Your supply will go up and down constantly, meaning no supply depots are needed normally.
- Trade your army constantly with his. Your marines operate best when they are in small to medium sizes. If your opponent gets out multiple Colossus you may need to swap into Vikings. If he has multiple HTs you may need ghosts.
- Throw your brood war mentality away. I used to play Terran in BW and any BW Terran player knows that marines get raped by everything in the Protoss army. In StarCraft 2 things are totally different. Don’t let your brood war experience of zealots, dragoons and reavers ripping apart anything not made of steel effect your judgment in game.
- Do not make reactors until you have at least 12 barracks, this will cause too much of a production spike in marines and can cost you the game. When you do start to make reactors, do them one or two at a time.
- Expand aggressively; your opponent won’t have a chance to move out a screen width from his natural if you do this right.
- Poke the front constantly early game, if you don’t see an expansion build another 2 or 3 bunkers just in case. Control the watchtower(s) if possible at all times.
- After 6:30 make sure you have a scan or two available for DTs until you can confirm he isn’t going DTs.
- Do not get supply blocked ever. You need to build two or three supply depots at a time mid game. If you get supply blocked for even a bit, your army size will be substantially smaller when you push out.
- Hotkey 6-7 SCVs at your natural so you can pull them off and repair if you need to quickly. If you need to pull SCVs and haven’t hotkeyed them, double click a SCV, do not box your whole mineral line. By doing this, you ensure your mules continue to mine.
- Many Protoss respond to your 1rax FE by 4 gating you, make sure you have multiple bunkers up and are constantly checking your opponent’s front. Controlling the watchtowers and slowing down the probe/pylon is important.
Conclusion
+ Show Spoiler +
Have fun abusing your “A” key on your keyboard and making Protoss’ around the world rage with this build! GL HF Terran commanders and remember A is for MARINES NOT APPLE! Comments and questions are welcome and I will constantly update and view this thread. ![[image loading]](http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/a08493352d.jpg)
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Replay #1: My opponent goes for a 6gate with heavy focus on zealots and stalkers. The game is really close and back and forth. This is the game in the VOD at the top of the page.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-195237.jpg)
Replay #2: My opponent goes for a 6 gate with heavy focus on sentries (MC style). My opponent can only withstand two waves of marines before rage quitting.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-195236.jpg)
Replay #3: This is a ‘grudge match’ after calling this guy a ‘bronze league noob’ in a 2v2, I promptly own his 3400-masters’ ass with only marines. His reaction is pretty hilarious.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-195244.jpg)
Replay #4: On my alternative account I meet an opponent who goes 1gate FE into 2 base colo + gateway units. He puts up a decent fight but in the end gets overwhelmed with marines.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-195242.jpg)
Replay #5 On my alternative account again I meet up with a 3400 masters guy who goes 5 gate and abuses back rocks to circumvent my bunkers, my marines easily hold it off without much difficulty.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-195241.jpg)
Replay #2: My opponent goes for a 6 gate with heavy focus on sentries (MC style). My opponent can only withstand two waves of marines before rage quitting.
Replay #3: This is a ‘grudge match’ after calling this guy a ‘bronze league noob’ in a 2v2, I promptly own his 3400-masters’ ass with only marines. His reaction is pretty hilarious.
Replay #4: On my alternative account I meet an opponent who goes 1gate FE into 2 base colo + gateway units. He puts up a decent fight but in the end gets overwhelmed with marines.
Replay #5 On my alternative account again I meet up with a 3400 masters guy who goes 5 gate and abuses back rocks to circumvent my bunkers, my marines easily hold it off without much difficulty.
Responses to Forum Posts
+ Show Spoiler +
I will try to respond to as many of your forum posts as possible here. I decided to make a section for this as opposed to replying directly in the thread as this will make it easier to see discussions, since this thread might get extremely large and therefore it would be hard to see any real discussions if the responses were pages apart.
Baby_Seal
+ Show Spoiler +
Carbonthief
+ Show Spoiler +
ChuckJagoda
+ Show Spoiler +
darkscream
+ Show Spoiler +
Excludos
+ Show Spoiler +
Figgy
+ Show Spoiler +
FinestHour
+ Show Spoiler +
JerKy
+ Show Spoiler +
Kyadytim
+ Show Spoiler +
PhiliBiRD
+ Show Spoiler +
Senorcuidado
+ Show Spoiler +
stungunjones
+ Show Spoiler +
Suerte
+ Show Spoiler +
Veasel
+ Show Spoiler +
Baby_Seal
+ Show Spoiler +
“I think dealing with a style like this requires Toss players to play in a way they're not really used to, and so this ends up being really effective.”
Exactly, this type of style catches many Protoss off guard. This probably will never become ‘standard’ play, but rather something that you have in your best of 3 or best of 5 toolbox. Another thing is that when you are under constant pressure you are more likely to make mistakes, which is why many Protoss do not respond in the proper manner.
Exactly, this type of style catches many Protoss off guard. This probably will never become ‘standard’ play, but rather something that you have in your best of 3 or best of 5 toolbox. Another thing is that when you are under constant pressure you are more likely to make mistakes, which is why many Protoss do not respond in the proper manner.
Carbonthief
+ Show Spoiler +
”As a way of fighting this build, what do you think about 1 gate expand into 6 gate blink stalkers with double forge ups, but instead of the normal double ups you get armor and shield instead of weapons and armor, and THEN after the first set finishes get weapons and the next armor at the same time?”
Not 100% sure about the gas constraints that a build like that would pose for the Protoss. However if it is possible to get double forge + blink + 6 gate mass stalkers I still believe that it wouldn’t pose much problems. Stalkers only gain +1 dmg from each attack, and in terms of armor the +1 attack from the marines should negate that. In addition marines can instantly kill a stalker if they focus fire it, meaning blink micro is impossible.
Not 100% sure about the gas constraints that a build like that would pose for the Protoss. However if it is possible to get double forge + blink + 6 gate mass stalkers I still believe that it wouldn’t pose much problems. Stalkers only gain +1 dmg from each attack, and in terms of armor the +1 attack from the marines should negate that. In addition marines can instantly kill a stalker if they focus fire it, meaning blink micro is impossible.
ChuckJagoda
+ Show Spoiler +
“This looks ridiculously effective, and I cant wait to try it tonight! Do you ever tech up to medivacs? I think once your third is up, they would be a great think to have, since your income will be much higher than the protoss'. You have to get a factory to get an armory for your upgrades anyways, so you're already halfway up the tech tree.”
Normally I do not, but it is possible. You are right, your income will be much higher. Normally I just spend the money on getting more units and upgrades and just swarm them directly. Using healing units and mobility don’t really fit with the ‘constantly in your face’ style that this strategy is best at.
Normally I do not, but it is possible. You are right, your income will be much higher. Normally I just spend the money on getting more units and upgrades and just swarm them directly. Using healing units and mobility don’t really fit with the ‘constantly in your face’ style that this strategy is best at.
darkscream
+ Show Spoiler +
“I would just love to see the same kind of layout for how you'd do it against Zerg (mostly because I want to thwart you)”
Haven’t tested it much against zerg, but it might work if you have extremely good control.
Haven’t tested it much against zerg, but it might work if you have extremely good control.
Excludos
+ Show Spoiler +
“There’s just one huge flaw in your build. A lot of your reaction to collosus is "Snipe the rangeless collosus". But what happens if the protoss waits for range, or actually bothers to micro them? One of my builds (and quite usual one) for close position vs terran is simply 1gate robotics collosus, and attack with 2 collosus with range. You wont be able to just "snipe" them with pure marines. Ever encountered this?”
If the Protoss gets 2+ colossus out, or has range you need to get mauds or Vikings to help your marines. Normally you constantly trade armies and put pressure on him so his Colossus count is really low.
If the Protoss gets 2+ colossus out, or has range you need to get mauds or Vikings to help your marines. Normally you constantly trade armies and put pressure on him so his Colossus count is really low.
Figgy
+ Show Spoiler +
“I tried this a couple times today. It just simply doesn't work in mid masters or higher. You simply cannot engage a protoss who doesn't FE up a ramp. When he sees this build he just sits in his base until he has enough sentries/army to move out and your marines simply don't do any cost effective damage. Unless the protoss blindly fast expos it's a BO loss against anything else, and even then you will have issues anyways. That's also not taking into account that early stalker harass really shuts you down early game against decent players simply because they can kite marines and take no hp damage.”
If the Protoss is still on one base at 9-10 minutes, you probably have already won the game as you are taking your 3rd about this time and you can just overwhelm him due to the income disparity with Marines/Mauds + Vikings/Ghosts/Medivacs. In addition this build is not the easiest thing in the word to scout early. 1 rax FE has many transitions. Stalkers harassment can cause a slight problem early game, but that is what bunkers are for.
If the Protoss is still on one base at 9-10 minutes, you probably have already won the game as you are taking your 3rd about this time and you can just overwhelm him due to the income disparity with Marines/Mauds + Vikings/Ghosts/Medivacs. In addition this build is not the easiest thing in the word to scout early. 1 rax FE has many transitions. Stalkers harassment can cause a slight problem early game, but that is what bunkers are for.
FinestHour
+ Show Spoiler +
“I didn't realize MKP browsed these forums on a smurf.”
hahaha, I can assure you I am NOT MKP
hahaha, I can assure you I am NOT MKP
JerKy
+ Show Spoiler +
“If you can pull this off, fighting marines vs x-unit puts Terran at advantage. Similar to TvZ scenarios, sacrificing any type of gas-requiring unit to kill marines is NOT cost effective. You're using gas to kill something that doesn't require gas to make (although the upgrades to require gas)”
This is the core concept of the build. You get to spend your gas on other things like upgrades or just more scvs on minerals. Day9 called this a ‘lean army composition’. Basically less variety = more numbers. More variety = less numbers. The strategy revolves around overwhelming the Protoss with the ‘leanest’ of ‘lean strategies’ available to the Terrans.
This is the core concept of the build. You get to spend your gas on other things like upgrades or just more scvs on minerals. Day9 called this a ‘lean army composition’. Basically less variety = more numbers. More variety = less numbers. The strategy revolves around overwhelming the Protoss with the ‘leanest’ of ‘lean strategies’ available to the Terrans.
Kyadytim
+ Show Spoiler +
“I think the best way to destroy this build is keeping the Colossi from being sniped by playing carefully with them until range comes out. It always seems stupid to me when a Protoss engages Terran infantry with rangeless Colossi on open ground, even somewhat when they have a bunch of forcefields to control the ground.”
Colossus have a range of 6 without the upgrade. If you go colossus you get hit right when you have 1 or 2. If you just sit at the back, the colossus won’t do any damage. If they come forward the range 5 marines just kill it in two volleys. Normally you just get 1 or 2 laser sweeps across the marine ball.
Colossus have a range of 6 without the upgrade. If you go colossus you get hit right when you have 1 or 2. If you just sit at the back, the colossus won’t do any damage. If they come forward the range 5 marines just kill it in two volleys. Normally you just get 1 or 2 laser sweeps across the marine ball.
PhiliBiRD
+ Show Spoiler +
"once a toss sees your simply massing marines, cant he just expand defend and mass colossus+sentry?"
No, both are way too gas intensive. The push hits when you have 1-2 colossus as well. In addition, if the Protoss expands too late, like after his observer scouts your base, you will roll him really easily.
No, both are way too gas intensive. The push hits when you have 1-2 colossus as well. In addition, if the Protoss expands too late, like after his observer scouts your base, you will roll him really easily.
Senorcuidado
+ Show Spoiler +
"Have you tried medivacs with the mass marines? They make marines even more effective in the small numbers, let you stim a little more freely, and most importantly guarantee that you can force multiple small battles at once with multi-pronged drops while attacking the front. The downside of course is that they'll eat into your marine count and you wouldn't be able to skip all those refineries. Maybe it's not worth it. Retention of those medivacs would have to be a priority, I was just wondering if you have tried it yet."
Medivacs are a possible transition, but I prefer Vikings or ghosts and overwhelming them with units. You should be up on expansions by the time you need to transition anyways, which should allow you to just “Sauron Terran” them.
Medivacs are a possible transition, but I prefer Vikings or ghosts and overwhelming them with units. You should be up on expansions by the time you need to transition anyways, which should allow you to just “Sauron Terran” them.
stungunjones
+ Show Spoiler +
“I really like this build. Builds that are attacking constantly and very mobile interest me a lot. I'll definitely be trying this out soon.”
Glad to hear it! Tell me how it goes for you.
Glad to hear it! Tell me how it goes for you.
Suerte
+ Show Spoiler +
“How do you plan on holding off a simple Zealot/Stalker poke to your front at the very beginning of the game? Your early game is dangerously vulnerable to this it would appear.”
Normally the distances are more than enough for you to be alright. Even on close positions Meta or Slag Pits I have two marines ready to fight. You may need to pull SCVs and micro a bit. But it shouldn’t be too difficult.
Normally the distances are more than enough for you to be alright. Even on close positions Meta or Slag Pits I have two marines ready to fight. You may need to pull SCVs and micro a bit. But it shouldn’t be too difficult.
Veasel
+ Show Spoiler +
“Bigger question. How do you planning on taking on stalkers before you have stim? Mass bunkers?”
You need to focus fire with the marines, if you let your marines spread their fire on the stalkers you will get owned pretty hard. Bunkers do help, normally you play defensively till you have stim but you might be able to snipe a sentry or two before your push, which will help a ton.
You need to focus fire with the marines, if you let your marines spread their fire on the stalkers you will get owned pretty hard. Bunkers do help, normally you play defensively till you have stim but you might be able to snipe a sentry or two before your push, which will help a ton.
Challenges *NEW*
+ Show Spoiler +
I had a busy day yesterday and I am overwhelmed with all of the responses from you guys. I will read them all later today and respond to as many as I can. In the meantime, if you would like to practice against this strategy I would love to play a few games with any of you. If you can beat me with your strategy, It will help me create a 'counters' section above. I have a NA and SEA account, PM me to arrange a game!
Other Resources
+ Show Spoiler +
Day9 Daily #264: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4807584/
Positioning, Formations, and Tactics Guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
Positioning, Formations, and Tactics Guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
.
