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On March 12 2011 22:01 link0 wrote:
This build is ridiculously bad at higher levels. Sentries/Stalkers completely decimate even combat shield+stimmed marines with minimal/zero losses.
Have you actually tried this?
Has ANYONE who is saying this is bad actually tried this? As dumb as mass marines sound, it actually works quite well
-Mass upgrades; marines rely on their quick firerate to deal the damage and stim takes that concept to the next level. Gateway units already have 1 armor and further armor upgrades will severely cut into marine damage.p.
I think this is something people will have to do. Also note that armor only effects health, not shield.
-Mass cannons; marines just suck pretty hard versus cannons.
Having played around with this build, if Toss puts up Cannons, I think it gives Terran too much room to just switch out into maybe Marauders or just mass expand you lose the ability to be offensive if you invest too much into static defense and it is hard to punish people for being greedy. Maybe 2-3 Cannons to help defend whilst your teching but that should probably be it really
- Sentry/ zealot as core army; zealots to tank and deal the damage whilst sentries use their guardian shield and forcefields to assist zealots in their role. Building stalkers seems like a waste of money after stim is done.
- Fast Charge; with the Stim research probably going up to 170 ingame seconds, I wonder if you can keep up marine agression
Sentry Zealot works quite well early but when the Marine ball gets too high they are too inefficient, stimmed marines can kill a wave of Zealots before they even get a single hit in, even with Charge.
I think a better idea is to go early Sentry/Stalker and tech to Colossus with maybe 2 Cannons at your natural (tops) as well as double forge. If you can keep your Colossus alive, Terran is forced to switch into Vikings, when that count gets to 3+, it really hurts.
I think Nonys double forge with 3 Colossus at 12mins will work very well against this, but it isn't easy though
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Why does everyone feel compelled to stick their name onto the title of their build? You can give yourself credit IN the thread, and in the case of this StimmedProbe technically didn't even come up with anything new, he just ripped it from ST_Rainbow without giving him specific credit, so if you want to get technical he doesn't even deserve to put his name anywhere as it is just plagiarizing Rainbow's build.
It's nice to see contributions to TL, but it's annoying when people get a hard on for self promotion. I might as well just go ahead, spend 10 looking for a replay, make a thread titled "Geovu's 5 gate Masterclass Ub0r Build", link to a white-ra game in the corner of the thread hidden within 5 spoiler tags and not give him any direct credit. It's just being pretentious.
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I've been screwing around with this tonight (gold). It really has to be executed precisely to deal with 4 gate and earlier pressure. Very precarious until the econ kicks in- I had a couple games where 5 seconds were the difference between crushing and getting crushed. Colossi were the least of my problems honestly.
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On March 12 2011 22:01 link0 wrote:
This build is ridiculously bad at higher levels. Sentries/Stalkers completely decimate even combat shield+stimmed marines with minimal/zero losses.
This. I'm 3300 Terran, tried this 3 times on ladder now and just got raped with no chance of recovery. This build takes huge early pressure from the 1 zealot 1 sentry poke, because you simply have no way to keep your expo alive without sacrificing some marines. When you finally do your push, Protoss can just forcefield half your marines and take pretty much no damage even when there are 30 of them.
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On March 12 2011 23:23 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:01 link0 wrote:
This build is ridiculously bad at higher levels. Sentries/Stalkers completely decimate even combat shield+stimmed marines with minimal/zero losses. This. I'm 3300 Terran, tried this 3 times on ladder now and just got raped with no chance of recovery. This build takes huge early pressure from the 1 zealot 1 sentry poke, because you simply have no way to keep your expo alive without sacrificing some marines. When you finally do your push, Protoss can just forcefield half your marines and take pretty much no damage even when there are 30 of them.
Early game it is exactly the same as a 1rax expand, up until it is just past the 4gate timing..
And there is no way you can do "no damage" with 30 stimmed marines, not a chance, even if your army is cut, you just focus sentries with the most energy with whatever doesn't get cut and they melt like butter. Only way they actually can take "no damage" is if they do the 9-11 sentry 6gate that MC does, then you have enough sentries to cage marines into small groups
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You dont HAVE to 1 rax FE, it's just his opener.
Personally i do 12 and 14 rax into expand.
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I would just mass stalker and sentry while i tech to colossi, 6 sentries should provide enough forcefields to stop every push you got coming until i have colossi, and from there its over :D.
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On March 12 2011 23:39 PaPoolee wrote:
I would just mass stalker and sentry while i tech to colossi, 6 sentries should provide enough forcefields to stop every push you got coming until i have colossi, and from there its over :D.
6 sentries? You're gonna lose all your energy so when the time to push does come, you have no energy to do so. The point of this opening is to never stop attacking, and give you no time to really afford to go straight to collsai with sentries. If you do, you're on 1 base, I'm on 2. I can easily transition, throw 4 tech labs down, and just marine marauder over run you.
Yes the 3 gate stalker/sentry, which rapes most reactor marine opens, does hurt badly.
This works best against FE protoss personally.
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Honestly theres not much a protoss has to deal with mass marines until Collosus or HT. Zealots get eaten, stalkers DPS can not match Marines + sentries are just needed to GS. So really this is about the Terran equivalent of the 4 gate?
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i think someone did this to me, but in a zvt? o.o My terran opponent ended up with 22 barracks haha, and it was kinda annoying to deal with it as a zerg.
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As Protoss i can telll you that mass marines is strong.
The only opening i see as protoss is that you have to pressure very fast with stalkers, so you can trade armies very cost efficients in that initial stake, that gives you enough breathing room to tech up safely.
If Terran gets stim you are already on the losing end. he doesn't care about loses cause he can constantly trade costefficient everytime, while you do not.
Best bet as Protoss should be early aggression, but the problem is realizing it is mass marine style.
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I think the reason you keep winning is that the Toss you play don't go pure gateway.
I wonder if a double forge -> 6 gate would beat you. these builds/reps demonstrate you being cost ineffective until you go ahead in upgrades and the toss get too tired of managing sentries.
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On March 13 2011 02:48 familyguy123 wrote:
I think the reason you keep winning is that the Toss you play don't go pure gateway.
I wonder if a double forge -> 6 gate would beat you. these builds/reps demonstrate you being cost ineffective until you go ahead in upgrades and the toss get too tired of managing sentries.
will people watch the videos before commenting? the 2nd video shows the toss going 6 gate allin and loses, completely contradicting your point.
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On March 13 2011 03:10 Jerax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:48 familyguy123 wrote:
I think the reason you keep winning is that the Toss you play don't go pure gateway.
I wonder if a double forge -> 6 gate would beat you. these builds/reps demonstrate you being cost ineffective until you go ahead in upgrades and the toss get too tired of managing sentries. will people watch the videos before commenting? the 2nd video shows the toss going 6 gate allin and loses, completely contradicting your point.
a) i actually watched all of them
b) the "2nd" video with Aconite? yeah he goes 6 gate into colossi, no forge. all im trying to say is, if you GO AHEAD in upgrades i would hope you could beat this. otherwise i'd contend this was pretty broken
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Well Im glad to see protoss has problems with it as well, not just zerg.
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I've tested it with a friend (4100+ Protoss) and I got pretty much destroyed. It was my first attempt and I guess something went wrong so.. its VIABLE as a build in a bo3/5 but I don't think its viable as standard play.
Superfast armor upgrades + Guardianshield is really a big problem for it.
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I have no experience fighting against this but my intuition is telling me that if the protoss goes HEAVY (read: 80%) chargelot with sentry support and just pumps upgrades with chrono the whole game, you lose. Protoss can outdo you in upgrades, so by the time you have 1 attack upgrade, protoss should almost have atleast 2. Add guardian shield and the fact that zealots rape marines (especially with ups) and you have a very inefficient army.
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On March 13 2011 03:10 Jerax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:48 familyguy123 wrote:
I think the reason you keep winning is that the Toss you play don't go pure gateway.
I wonder if a double forge -> 6 gate would beat you. these builds/reps demonstrate you being cost ineffective until you go ahead in upgrades and the toss get too tired of managing sentries. will people watch the videos before commenting? the 2nd video shows the toss going 6 gate allin and loses, completely contradicting your point.
That wasn't the double forge 6 gate so I wouldn't call them the same, but that was kind of a nightmare scenario with a ton of stalkers pounding at the natural with very few marines to defend. It seemed like both sides could have played better, more sentries would have been good but gas was limiting and more bunkers would have been good but he probably didn't know it was a 6 gate. (edit: actually that was game 1 but still a good example). Personally I'm not crazy about salvaging the bunkers so early, it's much easier to survive the counterattack with 2 or 3 of them up. The eng bay seemed late in all those replays, but the BO calls for it when you start CS so he probably knows that already, just an execution thing.
For the people saying pure gateway beats this, it probably CAN. Everything probably can. But most of the replays were 4-5-6 gate builds and for the most part they were beat pretty handily. Could they have played better and won? Of course. So could the OP. Prince could have played better against Rainbow, but he made good use of force fields and psi storm throughout the game and he's far from a silver league noob. In fact, Rainbow made lots of mistakes in that game and his build was not that refined. It was even on Xelnaga Caverns, where my bio play usually disintegrates to good force fields.
A build doesn't have to be either invincible or garbage. Gateways can beat it, robo can beat it, templar can beat it, stargate probably isn't a good idea. That doesn't make the build bad, it just means you both have to play good Starcraft. I rarely believe in such a thing as a BO loss and I think it stifles you significantly to think like that. I really like a style of TvP that constantly trades armies and applies pressure in multiple places, large battles that involve aoe don't tend to go that well for the Terran but we do better in smaller fights with stim. That doesn't have to mean mass marines but I like that we can explore that style rather than continue to lose dramatic 200/200 fights.
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On March 12 2011 23:23 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 22:01 link0 wrote:
This build is ridiculously bad at higher levels. Sentries/Stalkers completely decimate even combat shield+stimmed marines with minimal/zero losses. This. I'm 3300 Terran, tried this 3 times on ladder now and just got raped with no chance of recovery. This build takes huge early pressure from the 1 zealot 1 sentry poke, because you simply have no way to keep your expo alive without sacrificing some marines. When you finally do your push, Protoss can just forcefield half your marines and take pretty much no damage even when there are 30 of them.
post your replays?
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Million man march was a BW strategy exactly like this and it was tons of fun Esspecially once you had dropships and starting doing drops EVERYWHERE while stomping across the ground 
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EPT
